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Log from 2006-06-04:
--- Day changed Sun Jun 04 2006
00:16 -!- SuPeRTaRD [i=blah@adsl-71-145-128-49.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #armagetron
01:07 <Lucifer_arma> re tard
01:14 -!- n54 [n=n54@138.80-203-102.nextgentel.com] has quit []
01:20 -!- Joni [n=514f54e4@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has joined #armagetron
01:21 <Joni> yo guys
01:33 <spidey> lol @ re tard
01:34 -!- Joni [n=514f54e4@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has quit ["CGI:IRC (EOF)"]
01:54 -!- z-man [n=manuel@p50873F84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #armagetron
01:57 <spidey> hahaha
01:57 <spidey> :)
01:57 <Lucifer_arma> damn server restarted
01:57 <spidey> cmoe back
02:18 <[Xpert]DarkStar> *yawn*
02:19 <[Xpert]DarkStar> morning
02:39 -!- WingDark [n=514f54e4@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has joined #armagetron
02:39 <WingDark> or8 guyd
02:39 <WingDark> guys*
02:41 <WingDark> im trying to use two commands in my autoexec.cfg and its says commands unknown in my dedicated server window
02:41 <WingDark> these are the commands
02:41 <WingDark> CYCLE_WALLS_LENGTH 1600
02:41 <WingDark> why dont they work?
02:43 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: Ringwraith`: Just a warning, but Qt does NOT work with Cygwin involved. ; Cygwin should handle most *nix apps w/o special code, but I won't do it. ; Using Cygwin to port is like using WINE to port-- except that Cygwin's API is standardized. ;)
02:43 <Luke-Jr> cross-compiling to a MingW target is likely easier than a Cygwin target, too
02:44 <Luke-Jr> spidey: wtf? why bother with a 9250 for Windoze?
02:45 <WingDark> are you talking to me
02:45 <WingDark> ?
02:50 <WingDark> hello?
02:53 -!- philippeqc [n=philippe@c83-250-130-90.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #armagetron
02:55 <spidey> why not?
03:00 -!- Luke-Jr [n=luke-jr@2002:1891:f657:0:20e:a6ff:fec4:4e5d] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
03:01 -!- Luke-Jr [n=luke-jr@2002:1891:f657:0:20e:a6ff:fec4:4e5d] has joined #armagetron
03:08 -!- WingDark [n=514f54e4@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has quit ["CGI:IRC (EOF)"]
03:15 <Lucifer_arma> je suis american
03:15 <Lucifer_arma> at this rate, I might actually speak french in a couple of years
03:34 -!- wejp [n=j0hannes@i577B99CE.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
03:37 -!- wejp [n=j0hannes@i577B99CE.versanet.de] has joined #armagetron
04:35 -!- WingDark [n=514f54e4@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has joined #armagetron
04:40 <WingDark> or8 yoons!
04:48 -!- WingDark [n=514f54e4@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has quit ["CGI:IRC (EOF)"]
04:52 <spidey> i had to kill 2 brown recluse and this weird spider just to piss :/
05:02 <Lucifer_arma> you used a suitable weapon and not your penis, I take it?
05:02 <spidey> hahah
05:02 <spidey> i used my grandmas big ass hand held mirror thingy
05:08 -!- kommerck [n=Leon@dslb-088-072-130-243.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #armagetron
05:08 <kommerck> hey
05:08 <kommerck> where does armagetron looks for its config files when I install it to /usr and with --disable-games?
05:12 <kommerck> the install script put them to /etc/armagetronad but the binary still doesn't find the configfiles
05:12 <Lucifer_arma> Luke-Jr: Check the trunk now, just committed a fix.  The buffer will default to 256 samples in size, and you can adjust it with SOUND_BUFFER_SIZE, which is a float, multiplied by 512
05:13 <Lucifer_arma> kommerck: that may be a bug.  Hmmmm.............
05:13  * Lucifer_arma wonders if games is hardcoded in the path in the game
05:15 <kommerck> I'll try with -disable-sysinstall and then call it manually
05:20  * spidey is watching boondock saints
05:21 -!- MaZuffeR [n=MaZuffeR@darkmoor.sby.abo.fi] has joined #armagetron
05:24 <philippeqc> Lucifer_arma: tried the sparks with hardware acceleration, the are very neat. But have a look at them with software rendering. The best description would be "biking in a cloud of moscitos with your mouth open".
05:25 <philippeqc> and after that, they keep on flying around, raising high in the sky.
05:25 <philippeqc> spidey: Can we get the rope? 
05:27 <spidey> ?
05:28 <philippeqc> spidey: it comes later in the film.
05:28 <Lucifer_arma> heh.  they are highly experimental right now.  :)
05:29 <spidey> philippeqc, ah
05:34 <kommerck> still no go.....
05:42 <Lucifer_arma> did you try --disable-binreloc?
05:42 <Lucifer_arma> I'm going to sleep now, sorry
05:42  * Lucifer_arma is away: sleeping
05:48 <kommerck> even more errors
05:56 <kommerck> oO
05:56 <kommerck> it looked in %_prefix/share/config
06:00 <spidey> "you and your fuckin rope"
06:00 <spidey> xD
06:26 -!- kommerck [n=Leon@dslb-088-072-130-243.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Another attempt to get a real life."]
06:28 <Luke-Jr> http://svn.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.cgi/armagetronad/armagetronad/branches/0.2.8/armagetronad/src/network/nNetObject.cpp?r1=4053&r2=4179
06:28 <Luke-Jr> why is that code duplicated?
06:36 -!- WingDark [n=514f54e4@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has joined #armagetron
06:39 <WingDark> or8 guys
06:44 <Luke-Jr> wtf?
06:48 <WingDark> wot?
06:48 <Luke-Jr> English
06:48 <WingDark> what are you on about?
06:48 <Luke-Jr> "or8" makes no sense
06:49 <Luke-Jr> sh: or8: command not found
06:50 <WingDark> ok
06:50 <WingDark> sorry about that
06:50 <WingDark> i meant allright
06:50 <WingDark> sorry
06:50 <WingDark> lol
06:50 <WingDark> how do i make my own map for my server?
06:51 <WingDark> does anyone have any idea?
06:51 <Luke-Jr> all right is two words
06:51 <Luke-Jr> yes
06:51 <WingDark> ok
06:51 <Luke-Jr> rtfw
06:52 <WingDark> sorry again
06:52 <WingDark> rtfw??
06:52 <WingDark> what does that mean?
06:52 <Luke-Jr> read the fscking wiki
06:52 <Luke-Jr> first, you write the map file
06:52 <Luke-Jr> it's XML, so similar to webpages
06:53 <WingDark> thats the bit i didnt kno
06:53 <Luke-Jr> then you pick a category, name, and version for it
06:53 <WingDark> how to write it
06:53 <Luke-Jr> so the resource tag would be <Resource Author="WingDark" Category="..." Name="..." Version="0.0.1">
06:53 <Luke-Jr> the wiki has detailed info on the format
06:54 <Luke-Jr> then, you get an account on the resource repository by asking me
06:54 <Luke-Jr> and finally, you can then use the web interface to upload your new map
06:54 <WingDark> ok
06:54 <Luke-Jr> and then set MAP_FILE to WingDark/Category/Name-Version.aamap.xml
06:54 <WingDark> so i have to make it first
06:54 <Luke-Jr> yes
06:55 <WingDark> ok
06:55 <Luke-Jr> there are plenty of example maps you can look at http://resource.armagetronad.net/resource/
06:56 <WingDark> thanks
06:59 <WingDark> is the only way to make them by hand?
06:59 <Luke-Jr> pretty much, for now
06:59 <WingDark> isnt their any programs to preview them?
06:59 <Luke-Jr> personally, I use KPaint to design it ;)
06:59 <Luke-Jr> yes
07:00 <WingDark> KPaint?
07:00 <Luke-Jr> nemo has a webapp that draws maps as pictures
07:00 <WingDark> is that good?
07:00 <Luke-Jr> KPaint is like MS Paint
07:00 <Luke-Jr> you draw pictures and stuff
07:00 <Luke-Jr> anyway, I use the line tool
07:00 <WingDark> how do u draw them on paint?
07:00 <Luke-Jr> and when I'm done, I move my mouse over the points, and copy the coordinates approx
07:01 <WingDark> oh i get u
07:01 <WingDark> lol
07:01 <Luke-Jr> well, actually I do the last step a bit different
07:01 <Luke-Jr> I pretend I'm driving the walls
07:01 <WingDark> oh
07:01 <Luke-Jr> and write a program that makes the map
07:01 <Luke-Jr> by driving it
07:01 <WingDark> ok
07:01 <WingDark> say i was going to write a race server
07:02 <Luke-Jr> I know some people have scripts
07:02 <WingDark> how would i put them walls in the middle on?
07:02 <Luke-Jr> that automatically make maze maps
07:02 <WingDark> who?
07:02 <Luke-Jr> dunno who
07:02 <Luke-Jr> maybe wrtlprnft 
07:02 <WingDark> wrtlprmfl: do you?
07:05 <WingDark> no answer lol
07:09 <Luke-Jr> note you might need a real OS (read: not windows trash) to use it
07:09 <WingDark> thanks
07:09 <WingDark> lol
07:09 <WingDark> its not my fault i use windows
07:10 <WingDark> what are they ------------>             xdir="0"	ydir="1"
07:10 <WingDark> ?
07:10 <Luke-Jr> spawn direction
07:10 <Luke-Jr> obsolete spec tho
07:10 <Luke-Jr> it should be degrees="90" or such
07:10 <WingDark> eh?
07:11 <Luke-Jr> tho xdir/ydir have some advanced use cases still
07:11 <Luke-Jr> which way the cycle spawns facing
07:11 <WingDark> so its degrees?
07:11 <WingDark> x direction
07:11 <WingDark> and y direction
07:11 <WingDark> around 360 deg
07:11 <WingDark> ok
07:13 <Luke-Jr> it's either degrees OR xdir/ydir
07:14 <WingDark> give me an example plz
07:14 <Luke-Jr> degrees="90"
07:14 <Luke-Jr> or
07:14 <Luke-Jr> xdir="0" ydir="1"
07:14 <WingDark> oh
07:14 <WingDark> ok
07:14 <Luke-Jr> xdir/ydir are only useful for *very* advanced maos
07:14 <Luke-Jr> maps*
07:14 <WingDark> why do the poins come in groups of 4?
07:15 <Luke-Jr> that happens to be convenient on the map you're looking at
07:15 <WingDark> oh
07:15 <WingDark> lol
07:16 <WingDark> i know why
07:16 <WingDark> there spawn points
07:16 <WingDark> lol
07:17 <WingDark> what if i didnt include spawns?
07:18 <Luke-Jr> then the world explodes
07:18 <Luke-Jr> I think they're required
07:18 <WingDark> ok lol
07:18 <WingDark> how do you pick yours
07:18 <WingDark> ?
07:19 <WingDark> brb g2g for dinner
07:19 <WingDark> 10 minuites
07:33 <WingDark> im back now!
07:34 <Luke-Jr> o
07:34 <WingDark> how do you pick your spawn points then?
07:35 <WingDark> ?//
07:37 <Luke-Jr> randomly
07:39 <WingDark> how?
07:40 <Luke-Jr> guess
07:41 <WingDark> how can i guess just tell me lol
07:51 <wrtlprnft> Luke-Jr: WingDark: It's not degrees!
07:52 <wrtlprnft> *insert comment about people who can't distinguish dimensions from units here*
07:52 <wrtlprnft> it's angle="" o_O
07:52 <wrtlprnft> WingDark: http://wiki.armagetronad.net/index.php/Making_Maps_by_Hand
07:52 <wrtlprnft> that explains everything you need to know
07:53 <wrtlprnft> WingDark: it's not CYCLE_WALLS_STAY_UP_DELAY, it's just WALLS_STAY_UP_DELAY
07:53 <wrtlprnft> same with WALLS_LENGTH
07:54 <wrtlprnft> WingDark: yes, i have a script for my race server, but it's a shellscript and therefore doesn't run on MS Windows
07:57 <wrtlprnft> uh, is there any reason I can't put the code of my race server on SVN in .private?
07:57 <wrtlprnft> Luke-Jr: 
07:58 <wrtlprnft> #news add 100000 is out: download it on http://beta.armagetronad.net/
07:58 <armabot> wrtlprnft: The operation succeeded.  (News item #8 added)
07:58 <wrtlprnft> #news 8
07:58 <armabot> wrtlprnft: download it on http://beta.armagetronad.net/ (Subject: " is out", added by wrtlprnft on 07:58 AM, June 04, 2006, expires at 11:45 AM, June 05, 2006)
07:58 <wrtlprnft> #news
07:58 <armabot> wrtlprnft: News for #armagetron: (#4) Armabot now has a message command; (#8) is out
07:58 <Luke-Jr> .
07:59 <wrtlprnft> Luke-Jr: you mean ...?
07:59 <wrtlprnft> I wonder if i could actually get an answer ;)
07:59 <Luke-Jr> ...
08:00 <wrtlprnft> ....
08:02 <Luke-Jr> .....
08:02 <wrtlprnft> .....
08:03  * wrtlprnft would still prefer an answer
08:03 <Luke-Jr> ......
08:03 <Luke-Jr> what
08:03 <wrtlprnft> #last --with .private
08:03 <armabot> wrtlprnft: [07:57:17] <wrtlprnft> uh, is there any reason I can't put the code of my race server on SVN in .private?
08:05 <WingDark> duno
08:07 <Luke-Jr> .private?
08:07 <Luke-Jr> you mean /private?
08:07 <wrtlprnft> (look at my answers to your questions above=
08:07 <wrtlprnft> yes
08:08 <Luke-Jr> shrug, I don't see why not, just be sure to do a proper copy and all
08:08 <Luke-Jr> unless it's totally new code
08:08 <wrtlprnft> proper copy?
08:08 <wrtlprnft> is there something like svn cp?
08:11 <Luke-Jr> yes
08:12  * wrtlprnft should better read the svn book...
08:15 <Luke-Jr> svn co https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/armagetronad/armagetronad/trunk https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/armagetronad/private/wrtlprnft/RaceServer
08:15 <Luke-Jr> assuming it's trunk-based
08:15 <wrtlprnft> and then i just merge my code in?
08:15 <Luke-Jr> and assuming you already did svn mkdir https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/armagetronad/private{,/wrtlprnft}
08:15 <Luke-Jr> err
08:15 <Luke-Jr> and assuming you already did svn mkdir https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/armagetronad/private/wrtlprnft
08:15 <Luke-Jr> yes
08:16 <Luke-Jr> also assuming you don't have a RCS on your current code
08:16 <wrtlprnft> rcs?
08:16 <Luke-Jr> like cvs
08:16 <wrtlprnft> I currently have it in a trunk checkout
08:17 <wrtlprnft> so i can merge changes, i just can't commit
08:18 <Luke-Jr> ok, so yeah just copy trunk to private, checkout the private one, and merge into that
08:22 <z-man> What? Nooo, if he does that continuously, we'll have each trunk change twice.
08:22 <z-man> Don't copy the whole trunk.
08:22 <Luke-Jr> z-man: wtf?
08:22 <wrtlprnft> ...
08:22 <WingDark> right ive done the wall points!
08:22 <wrtlprnft> we already have every change thrice with Luke-Jr's copies
08:23 <z-man> Which copies?
08:23 <Luke-Jr> z-man: what are you talking about?
08:23 <wrtlprnft> CvS and MCP attack
08:23 <z-man> Those are branches, as far as i'm concerned.
08:24 <Luke-Jr> copies are branches
08:24 <z-man> wrtlprnft: I think you want something else.
08:24 <wrtlprnft> uh, what do i want then?
08:24 <z-man> I don't know :)
08:24 <wrtlprnft> o_O
08:24  * Luke-Jr thinks wrtlprnft wants a branch =p
08:24 <z-man> You just want tour map making scripts in htere, right?
08:24 <wrtlprnft> np
08:24 <Luke-Jr> unless, of course, it's new code
08:24 <wrtlprnft> *no
08:24 <wrtlprnft> that's pig's shooting code
08:24 <z-man> You do actual changes to the game code?
08:25 <Luke-Jr> map making would be tools
08:25 <Luke-Jr> eventually, anyway
08:25 <wrtlprnft> which is used on my server
08:25 <z-man> Luke-Jr: yes
08:25 <z-man> Ah, right. That goes into a copy indeed.
08:25 <z-man> or branch.
08:25 <Luke-Jr> same thing
08:25 <z-man> whatever you want to call it :)
08:25 <wrtlprnft> people can lay mines on that server, and i don't want pig's stuff to just disappear
08:25 <Luke-Jr> darcs should implement copies/branches
08:25 <z-man> not all copies are branches :)
08:26 <Luke-Jr> all copies are branches
08:26 <Luke-Jr> just not necesarilly entire module branches
08:26 <wrtlprnft> which means that one day I'll have to transform it into subclasses of gZone
08:26 <Luke-Jr> did pig disappear?
08:26 <wrtlprnft> i haven't seen him
08:27 <wrtlprnft> if anyone sees him, ask him if he can give me the zombie code
08:27 <Luke-Jr> can players control their zombies? :)
08:27 <wrtlprnft> does that mean green light for the copy?
08:27 <wrtlprnft> no they can't
08:27 <Luke-Jr> aww
08:27 <z-man> Anyway, what we *don't* want in the private repository part is unneccesary doublication of changes. I'd advise against merging changes from the trunk into the private branches there.
08:28 <Luke-Jr> <.<
08:28 <wrtlprnft> well, then it'll be outdarted soon and get incompatible in a while
08:28 <wrtlprnft> *outdated
08:29 <z-man> For that purpuse, keeping the changes just in your checkout is better. You get every public change right away.
08:29 <wrtlprnft> uh, ok
08:29  * Luke-Jr just finished merging MCP attack ;)
08:29 <z-man> In which direction?
08:29 <wrtlprnft> trunk->mcp
08:29 <Luke-Jr> up to date on branch
08:30 <wrtlprnft> or branch->mcp, whatever
08:30 <Luke-Jr> merging to 0.2.8 branch was difficult
08:30 <Luke-Jr> so I just updated
08:30 <z-man> Point is, if you do this merging for every side project, you'll tripple our space usage
08:30 <z-man> (in the long run)
08:31 <Luke-Jr> fun, hope darcs fixes their showstoppers
08:31 <z-man> It wouldn't be a problem with darcs, of course :)
08:31 <z-man> which showstoppers?
08:31 <Luke-Jr> I should make a list of them
08:31 <Luke-Jr> 1. branches/copies
08:31 <z-man> Probably :)
08:31 <z-man> are handled outside of darcs.
08:31 <Luke-Jr> 2. checkout only a subdirectory
08:32 <Luke-Jr> no
08:32 <z-man> use many darcs repositories.
08:32 <z-man> yes
08:32 <Luke-Jr> that's repositories
08:32 <Luke-Jr> not branches/copies
08:32 <z-man> In darcs, copy != branch, but repository == branch
08:32 <z-man> get that into your head :)
08:32 <Luke-Jr> what if I want to branch gGame.cpp into gGameA.cpp and gGameB.cpp ?
08:33 <Luke-Jr> branches need not apply to entire directories
08:33 <z-man> Ah,  the history fanatic speaks again
08:33 <Luke-Jr> nor are they necessarily isolated
08:33 <z-man> But they make most sense if they do.
08:33 <Luke-Jr> not always
08:34  * z-man isn't in the mood to discuss any of that, actually
08:34 <Luke-Jr> branching of individual files is what is commonly called "copying" in other SCMs
08:34 <WingDark> u know this for the map files
08:35 <WingDark> <Spawn	x="245"	y="450"	xdir="0"	ydir="-1"	/>
08:35 <WingDark> the xdir and ydir
08:35 <wrtlprnft> http://wiki.armagetronad.net/index.php/Making_Maps_by_Hand#Spawn_points
08:35 <WingDark> which ways do certain values make the bike face?
08:35 <Luke-Jr> told you not to worry about xdir/ydir...
08:35 <WingDark> oh yeah
08:35 <WingDark> lol
08:35 <Luke-Jr> use angle
08:36  * wrtlprnft things xdir/ydir is more clear
08:36 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: only for 4 axis
08:36 <WingDark> mine is only 4 axis
08:36 <wrtlprnft> with angles you mave to memorize where the 0 axis is, and if they go clockwise or counterclockwise
08:37 <wrtlprnft> so what? if you have 6 axes angles are still easier
08:37 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: with xdir/ydir, you need to memorize which directions are positive and which are negative ;)
08:37 <WingDark> so what shall i use???
08:37 <Luke-Jr> WingDark: angles =p
08:37 <wrtlprnft> xdir=0 ydir=1
08:37 <wrtlprnft> xdir=1 ydir=1
08:37 <wrtlprnft> xdir=1 ydir=-1
08:37 <WingDark> i kno which positive a negatives are
08:37 <wrtlprnft> xdir=0 ydir=-1
08:37 <wrtlprnft> xdir=-1 ydir=-1
08:37 <wrtlprnft> xdir=-1 ydir=1
08:37 <wrtlprnft> there you have 6 axes
08:37 <WingDark> i only want 4
08:37 <WingDark> lol
08:38 <WingDark> which do i use
08:38 <wrtlprnft> positive is up or right
08:38 <wrtlprnft> so xdir="1" means right
08:38 <wrtlprnft> so xdir="-1" means left
08:38 <WingDark> ok
08:38 <wrtlprnft> so ydir="1" means up
08:38 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: those are uneven, I think
08:38 <wrtlprnft> so ydir="-1" means down
08:38 <WingDark> ok thnx alot m8
08:38 <wrtlprnft> and combine them
08:38 <wrtlprnft> Luke-Jr: i know they are
08:38 <WingDark> for diagonals
08:38 <wrtlprnft> but they get mapped to the nearest axis ;)
08:39 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: lazy map maker!
08:39 <WingDark> lol
08:39 <wrtlprnft> WingDark: for 4 axes, only set one of them to 1 or -1, the rest to 0
08:39 <Luke-Jr> 0,1;0,-1;-1,0;1,0
08:39 <Luke-Jr> hm
08:40 <Luke-Jr> someone should make a 8 axes map with
08:40 <Luke-Jr> 0,1;0,0;0,-1;0,0;-1,0;0,0;1,0;0,0
08:40 <wrtlprnft> 0,0?
08:40 <Luke-Jr> no movement
08:40 <WingDark> lol
08:40 <wrtlprnft> doesn't work
08:41 <Luke-Jr> why not?
08:41 <Luke-Jr> normalize="0"
08:41 <wrtlprnft> hmm, true
08:41 <wrtlprnft> but the direction the cycle faces would be random
08:41 <Luke-Jr> hehe
08:42 <wrtlprnft> probably not random, just up
08:42 <wrtlprnft> but undefined ;)
08:50 <WingDark> <!DOCTYPE Resource SYSTEM "map-0.2.8_beta3.dtd">
08:50 <WingDark> what do i want to put in that?
08:50 <WingDark> do i need to change anything
08:51 <WingDark> ????
08:52 <WingDark> what shall i change this to ------> map-0.2.8_beta3.dtd
08:52 <WingDark> ???
08:54 <spidey> man
08:54 <spidey> i hate ~most~ fortress players
08:54 <spidey> sp ingeneral
08:55 <spidey> i play maybe 2 rounds per match cause of them :/
08:55 <WingDark> lol
08:56 <spidey> seriously,it's like they can't see the big letters "BREAK!!!"
08:56 <wrtlprnft> WingDark: don't change it at all
08:56 <WingDark> y not?
08:57 <MaZuffeR> people in general break much later than necessary
08:58 <MaZuffeR> i do to :/
08:58 <spidey> yea maz,but i've never died cause of you
08:59 <MaZuffeR> that's because i never doublegrind
08:59 <spidey> finally demon switched to my left
08:59 <spidey> snow i live :D
08:59  * spidey distracts wrtlprnft 
08:59 <spidey> wrtl , did this popup kill you :p
09:05 <WingDark> do i need to include this?
09:05 <WingDark> 				<Axes number="4">
09:05 <WingDark> 					<Axis xdir="1" ydir="1"/>
09:05 <WingDark> 					<Axis xdir="1" ydir="-1"/>
09:05 <WingDark> 					<Axis xdir="-1" ydir="-1"/>
09:05 <WingDark> 					<Axis xdir="-1" ydir="1"/>
09:05 <WingDark> 				</Axes>
09:06 <WingDark> oh
09:06 <WingDark> no
09:06 <WingDark> that would give me diagonals lol
09:07 <WingDark> if i want it to be normal axis like the plain square map do i just forget the axis bit?
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09:11 <WingDark> wrtlprnft
09:19 <wrtlprnft> spidey: i didn't see any popup
09:19  * wrtlprnft uses irssi
09:19 <WingDark> wrtlprnft: ive finished the map
09:19 <wrtlprnft> WingDark: just say <Axes number="4" />
09:20 <WingDark> do i even need it in?
09:20 <wrtlprnft> if they're standard axes (up, right, down, left) you can omit actually specifying them
09:20 <wrtlprnft> I dunno
09:20 <WingDark> ok
09:20 <WingDark> ill test it
09:20 <WingDark> brb
09:20 <wrtlprnft> no, you can omit it, it seems
09:20 <wrtlprnft> at least the DTD allows it
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--- Log opened Sun Jun 04 09:27:58 2006
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09:28 <WingDark> hi guys
09:28 <spidey> i'm leaving tuesday
09:28 <spidey> for a weel
09:28 <spidey> week
09:28 <WingDark> Luke-Jr: ive fished the file
09:28 <WingDark> finished*
09:28 <WingDark> lol
09:29 <wrtlprnft> everyone's leaving?
09:29 <WingDark> where?
09:29 <WingDark> and why?
09:29 <WingDark> and who?
09:29 <WingDark> lol
09:30 <wrtlprnft> g2g
09:33 <WingDark> e
09:33 <WingDark> bye*
09:33 <spidey> lol
09:34 <spidey> i'm going to my moms
09:36 <spidey> i think i'll enjoy it in fortress
09:36 <spidey> my ping should be alot better
09:37 <spidey> it's like 150miles closer to the server and the connection she has is better
09:48 <WingDark> cool
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10:10 <MaZuffeR> spidey: the stupid noobs dont know how to grind tight enough
10:13 <spidey> yea maz
10:13 <spidey> i can tell
10:14 <spidey> atleast you usually kill me :(
10:15 <spidey> these guys ruined my mood 9 hours ago
10:35 <MaZuffeR> my connection died again :(
10:36  * spidey sighs
10:36 <spidey> the guys should be banned from the internet
10:37 <MaZuffeR> i'm very good at not getting annoyed, so they don't bother me
10:38 <spidey> i think this 1 week break will do me good
10:39 <spidey> si can only take so much :/
10:40 <MaZuffeR> someone should set up a private fortress and give the ip only to the "good" players
10:40 <MaZuffeR> it's so much more fun without noobs
10:41 <spidey> yea,i could set one up
10:41 <spidey> but most the good players wouldn't come
10:41 <spidey> only places i know that have tron hosting are american
10:42 <spidey> pings would be high for most of tehm
10:42 <spidey> and if i hosted it they'd be really high
10:42 <spidey> joda said his was over 1k
10:43 <MaZuffeR> got you four last lines at once :/ damn connection
10:43 <MaZuffeR> 1k is a bit too high ;)
10:43 <spidey> hehe
10:43 <spidey> yea,but people in the US have around 60-90 ping on my connection
10:45 <spidey> then again,i won't be able to buy tron hosting
10:45 <spidey> i'm paying for a 32 soldat server now
10:45 <spidey> and will be getting another 32 slot one in a few weeks
10:45 <MaZuffeR> 32? that's a lot of people in soldat
10:45 <spidey> yea
10:46 <spidey> but 18 of them are bots
10:46 <spidey> you play soldat?
10:46 <MaZuffeR> oh ok
10:46 <MaZuffeR> haven't played in year or so
10:46 <spidey> should :)
10:46  * spidey started a clan :/
10:46 <MaZuffeR> i suck at it
10:46 <spidey> will have a total of 4 servers
10:46 <spidey> 2 of them on a 1 gig connection with 32 slots
10:47 <spidey> then me and damien's gonna host one,each will have 6-8 slots
10:47 <MaZuffeR> i was part of a clan, we all sucked
10:47 <spidey> lol
10:48 <spidey> i really don't care how good the people are
10:48 <spidey> if we like them,we invite them
10:48 <spidey> i don't want a group full of assholes/morons
10:48 <spidey> it's bad on soldat,i have a 184 banlist
10:49 <spidey> that's just from 1 month
10:49 <MaZuffeR> it isn't fun if you get all your kills by luck
10:49 <spidey> we got 1 death match server,1 ctf server
10:50 <spidey> 1 "zombie" ctf
10:50 <spidey> basically,18 bots on 1 team that look like zombies and have chainsaws
10:50 <MaZuffeR> heh
10:50 <spidey> then a 10 player max
10:50 <spidey> the rest of those slots are used for admins
10:50 <spidey> cause the server don't count them as a person,but the program running in the hosts backgournd does
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10:53 <spidey> wanna come play maz? :p
10:53 <MaZuffeR> soldat? i have to install it first
10:53 <spidey> :d
10:56 <spidey> hey manta,you got a mic?
10:57 <MaZuffeR> done, what server?
10:58 <spidey> look for (WM)|FA| Decaying Zombies
10:58 <spidey> you in?
10:59 <MaZuffeR> it's full
10:59 <spidey> you're ip 201.xxx ?
10:59 <spidey> nvm see ya
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12:52 <spidey> lol maz,that group didn't like me very much xD
12:52 <MaZuffeR> no
12:53 <spidey> i think that's the first group i haven't got along good with
12:54 <MaZuffeR> i didn't suck as much as i thought i would
12:54 <joda_bot> spidey: MaZuffeR: What are you talking about ?
12:54 <MaZuffeR> soldat
12:54 <spidey> soldat
12:54 <spidey> :)
12:54 <MaZuffeR> my hand hurts now :/
12:54 <spidey> you was doing great maz,had more points than me :p
12:57 <spidey> k i'm off to bed,cua
12:57 <MaZuffeR> g'night
12:58 <spidey> it's only 1;02 pm,but that's my bedtime xD
12:58 <spidey> cya,lol
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16:03 <wrtlprnft> GL_DONT_CARE?!
16:04 <wrtlprnft> nice constant
16:20 <wrtlprnft> z-man: i have that feeling too
16:20 <z-man> darn CIA.
16:20 <wrtlprnft> when i changed rFont.h it didn't recompile anythung, i had to do a make clean
16:20 <wrtlprnft> ?
16:21 <z-man> you're reading the logs as I write them again :)
16:21 <wrtlprnft> lol
16:21 <wrtlprnft> well, the logs can't change once you committed, right?
16:22 <z-man> we're definitely running automake without the -i option which turns off dependency tracking. I don't know what's wrong.
16:22 <wrtlprnft> maybe it can't find the includes?
16:22 <z-man> No, they can't change, but I wasn't finished committing todays work.
16:22 <wrtlprnft> uh, sorry
16:22 <z-man> Hmm, maybe. I'll keep an eye on that.
16:22 <z-man> nvm
16:23  * wrtlprnft will add a 5- minute delay to refer to log messages
16:23 <z-man> hehe
16:28 <z-man> Hmm, it's definitely calling depcomp
16:28 <wrtlprnft> do those log messages mean we will get a
16:28 <z-man> Some time, yes.
16:28 <z-man> But these changes will have to be hatched on the bugfarm a bit :)
16:29 <wrtlprnft> yeah, sure
16:29 -!- [NP]Tangent[c] is now known as [NP]Tangent
16:29 <z-man> There is also another voting change, I want to prevent players from coming in and issuing a kick vote right away
16:29 <wrtlprnft> any chance you can update one of the servers to CVS HEAD?
16:29 <wrtlprnft> so we get bugs there, too
16:30 <wrtlprnft> that /msg hang survived waaay too long IMHO
16:30 <z-man> Perhaps I can update sumo.
16:30 <wrtlprnft> s/CVS HEAD/trunk/
16:30 <wrtlprnft> :)
16:32 <z-man> cat src/.deps/libtron_a-gCycleMovement.Po
16:32 <z-man> # dummy
16:32 <z-man> hmm
16:33 <wrtlprnft> that file doesn't even exist for me
16:35 <z-man> DEPDIR=.deps depmode=none /bin/sh ../../../../armagetronad/depcomp
16:35 <z-man> depmode=none doesn't look too good.
16:35 <z-man> (MAKE output)
16:41 <z-man> Ah, riddle solved. remove config.cache and run "./config-status --recheck"
16:42 <z-man> If you checked out your working copy right at the beginning, bootstrap.sh disabled dependencies because you were not working with CVS
16:42 <z-man> and configure caches that.
16:42 <z-man> Oh, and you have to rerun bootstrap.sh before all that.
16:42  * z-man goes to post this on the forum
16:54 <wrtlprnft> thanks :)
16:55 <wrtlprnft> http://pastebin.ca/61879
16:55 <wrtlprnft> uh, the last line is a joke, right?
16:55 <wrtlprnft> it should either see i'm in the wrong dir and correct it or fail with an error message
16:56 <wrtlprnft> find .. -name config.cache
16:56 <wrtlprnft> empty result...
16:57 <z-man> really?
16:57 <z-man> "build directory" == top level build directory
16:57 <z-man> there should be a config.cache there.
16:58 <wrtlprnft> i searched the entire tree
16:59 <z-man> Err, you need to run bootstrap.sh from its own directory
16:59 <z-man> cd armagetronad; ./bootstrap.sh
16:59 <wrtlprnft> i have the checkout in ~/armagetronad3/armagetronad and build directories in ~/armagetronad3/armagetronad/build2 and ~/armagetronad3/armagetronad/ded
17:00 <wrtlprnft> that's what i did after the first one failed
17:00 <z-man> But the output is not the second log you posted, right?
17:01 <z-man> Maybe you can get away with just "./config.status --recheck"
17:01 <wrtlprnft> http://pastebin.ca/61881
17:02 <z-man> if the checks don't show "(cached)" all of the time, you'll be fine.
17:02 <z-man> Complain about the warnings with the people who underquote their definitions :)
17:02  * z-man has edited all his system files so they go away.
17:03 <wrtlprnft> but they don't do anything bad, do they?
17:03 <z-man> no
17:04 <guru3> i broke h.264 playback on my desktop somehow :/
17:04 <wrtlprnft> uh, it doesn't make a difference that I'm running the trunk, right?
17:04 <wrtlprnft> http://pastebin.ca/61882
17:04 <z-man> it shouldn't
17:04 <z-man> checking dependency style of gcc... gcc3
17:04 <z-man> yep, you should be fine now.
17:05 <wrtlprnft> but look at the bottom half...
17:05 <wrtlprnft> mathias@laptop $ touch ../src/render/rFont.h
17:05 <wrtlprnft> mathias@laptop $ make        
17:05 <wrtlprnft> and it doesn't compile anything
17:05 <z-man> Oh, I forgot 'make clean"
17:05 <z-man> the depfiles are only generated when files are compiled
17:05 <wrtlprnft> ah
17:13 <wrtlprnft> ok, seems to work now, thanks again :)
17:17 <z-man> np
17:18 <z-man> bedtime again
17:18  * z-man notices he was marked away all the time
17:18 <joda_bot> z-man: time for one question ?
17:18 <z-man> sure
17:18 <joda_bot> ok, I've been thinking about the build system for all platforms today
17:19 <joda_bot> My observation is that currently the build system is dependand on perl and python + bash
17:19 <joda_bot> perl for automake/autoconf
17:19 <joda_bot> and python for sortresources
17:19 <z-man> automake is perl?
17:19 <joda_bot> yes
17:19 <joda_bot> bash for general scripting and perhaps autoconf
17:20 <z-man> add m4 to the list ;)
17:20 <joda_bot> So there is no documentation on windows which is not a good thing
17:20 <joda_bot> yeah, m4 ... I'm not sure yet where to put it in
17:20 <joda_bot> but I thought it was part of autoconf ?
17:20 <z-man> No, its independent.
17:20 <z-man> autoconf uses it.
17:20 <z-man> (and the documentation)
17:21 <joda_bot> My suggestion would be to try to minizie dependencies
17:21 <joda_bot> I'll investigate if the docs can be compiled to a CHM easily
17:21 <z-man> CHM?
17:21 <joda_bot> Windows Helpfile format
17:22 <z-man> Ah that.
17:23 <z-man> We should probably move the docs over to a different source format. Raw HTML with m4 macros just isn't the right thing for everyone.
17:23 <joda_bot> yeah might be
17:23 <z-man> Docbook or doxygen would work, or this wiki-like thing Lucifer dug up a while ago
17:23 <joda_bot> But I'd also want to investigate if the python build depency can be moved to perl too
17:23 <wrtlprnft> why can't we include a copy of the wiki?
17:24 <wrtlprnft> just the actual pages, shouldn't be too big
17:24 <joda_bot> and then I'm thinking about using gnuwin32 packages for m4 perhaps
17:24 <joda_bot> but I have to check on that
17:24 <z-man> I'd wait with that. Maybe python will be required anyway.
17:24 <joda_bot> z-man: AFAIK pyhton will be used for scripting which is not neccessary to build the game
17:24 <z-man> wrtlprnft: if you write the mirror source, sure, we can include wiki snapshots.
17:25 <joda_bot> so keep the build system requirements low increases portability ?
17:25 <joda_bot> keep*ing*
17:25 <joda_bot> that's the whole point of it
17:25 <z-man> But what's the use in *not* requiring something for building you require for running?
17:26 <joda_bot> z-man: If it's really unreplaceable I'm fine with that
17:26 <wrtlprnft> can't we run sortresources.py before releases?
17:26 <z-man> wrtlprnft: we're doing that
17:26 <joda_bot> but if with a sane effort the requirements can be reduced that should simplfy it ?
17:26 <wrtlprnft> oh, ok
17:26 <wrtlprnft> so python is just needed for the SVN sources?
17:27 <z-man> joda_bot: yes, but the current system is working :) I see no need in changing a script from one language to another.
17:27 <z-man> wrtlprnft: yes
17:27 <wrtlprnft> well, we can expect people to have more software installed when they want to build from SVN
17:27 <z-man> Right.
17:27 <wrtlprnft> so we can require python as well
17:28 <z-man> Hey, now that we're on SVN, we can actually move the files around in the repository!
17:29 <joda_bot> z-man: wrtlprnft: you are saying that python is only needed to build armagetron right ?
17:29 <wrtlprnft> it's only needed to build from SVN
17:29 <joda_bot> or is python an essential part of subversion 
17:29 <z-man> So they don't have to be move again, and you get by without sortresources.py as long as you don't touch the resources.
17:29 <wrtlprnft> hmm
17:29 <wrtlprnft> but then i need two log entries for changing a resource file?
17:29 <joda_bot> heh, even easier ;)
17:29 <z-man> joda_bot: we're saying that if you get your sources from a tarball, you don't need python.
17:30 <wrtlprnft> first i need to move it, then i need to do the actual changes
17:30 <z-man> wrtlprnft: no, you just edit it. sortresources takes over the rest.
17:30 <z-man> It is extensible to do other things than just "mv a b", it can just as well call "svn mv a b"
17:31 <wrtlprnft> yeah, but it will produce two kog entries
17:31 <wrtlprnft> *log
17:31 <joda_bot> z-man: does subversion detect a resource being moved ?
17:31 <joda_bot> or do you have to tell it to move it ?
17:31 <z-man> wrtlprnft: only one log entry.
17:31 <wrtlprnft> if you say so, ok
17:31 <z-man> joda_bot: it doesn't detect it, but it can handle it if you tell it they got moved.
17:32 <joda_bot> z-man: good to know
17:32 <z-man> wrtlprnft: of course, the log entry will be "file moved and changed" if you look at it closer, but "svn log" won't show that by default.
17:37 <joda_bot> z-man: Did you replace @progtitle@ in language.txt by hand ?
17:37 <z-man> I can't remember what the unix system does with that :)
17:38 <joda_bot> it replaces it by "ArmagetronAd" I guess
17:38 <joda_bot> but it does not work on windows (obviously)
17:38 <z-man> Ah, no, I don't replace it by hand. It's autoconf'ed.
17:38 <joda_bot> z-man: I'm talking about the windows builds ?
17:39 <z-man> My method always was that I tolerate certain... quirks in the Windows SVN build
17:39 <joda_bot> z-man: do you build them on the shell ?
17:39 <joda_bot> hehe
17:39 <z-man> No, my Windows builds also have strange menus
17:39 <joda_bot> How do you build the release versions ?
17:39 <z-man> The real builds get created from a source zip created in Unix.
17:40 <z-man> The script is in the build module.
17:40 <joda_bot> btw. I send bobby an email to see what his problems with the newer versions are
17:40 <joda_bot> bobby complained about newer releases being too buggy
17:40 <joda_bot> ah
17:41 <z-man> http://svn.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.cgi/armagetronad/armagetronad/branches/0.2.8/build/scripts/winsrc?view=markup&rev=4612
17:41 <joda_bot> hm
17:41 <z-man> who is bobby?
17:41 <z-man> There is more work done around the script from the makefile, for example the documentation.
17:42 <z-man> (as you can guess from the tons of parameters)
17:42 <joda_bot> a player who complained on armagetron.nixda.net
17:42 <joda_bot> ^^ bobby
17:42 <joda_bot> z-man: but the releases did not include docs upto now
17:42 <joda_bot> the directory was always empty
17:42 <z-man> They didn't?
17:43 <z-man> I remember they were forgotten in and at first
17:43 <joda_bot> had it
17:43 <z-man> But I do hope that is fixed now :)
17:44 <joda_bot> 
17:44 <joda_bot> index.html 
17:44 <joda_bot> wiki.txt 
17:44 <joda_bot> move timestamp.txt
17:44 <joda_bot> seems to be ok now
17:44 <z-man> You can also try to get this bobby to post his complaints in the nixda forum and ping me to the tread.
17:44 <joda_bot> The html doc is probably better than a CHM file ;)
17:44 <joda_bot> nice thing that works now
17:45 <joda_bot> z-man: I'm already trying to get the neccessary info ;)
17:45 <z-man> Depends. We oculd open the CHM from within the game when you press F1 or something.
17:45 <joda_bot> btw did anyone of you try to play on older server with 0.2.8.x ?
17:45 <z-man> (not that I would know how)
17:46 <joda_bot> well the lag / issues make me stop playing older servers more or less
17:46 <z-man> Not with the release itself, but I was using the branch all the time.
17:46 <joda_bot> Which is fine for me, but many old school players probably stick to because of that
17:46 <z-man> And I do occasionally visit Tigers and Icemans
17:46 <joda_bot> z-man: ok, that should not matter
17:47 <z-man> Perhaps the Speeders type servers are more affected. You know my mantra there: dubdidubdidu-give me a recording and I see what I can do.
17:47 <z-man> Not actually a mantra.
17:47 <joda_bot> z-man: without a server side thing it will be difficult I guess
17:48 <z-man> Not too much.
17:48 <joda_bot> ok, I'll tell players to record their issues then ;)
17:48 <joda_bot> Will make you drown perhaps :-P
17:48 <z-man> Prediction problems can be figured out by a clientside recording alone, the server sends over what he thinks happened :)
17:48 <joda_bot> I'll try to envforce short recordings ;)
17:48 <z-man> That would be nice.
17:49 <joda_bot> z-man: I changed the codeblocks build/armgetronad source to use the resoucrce icon of the exe
17:49 <joda_bot> That should be done for Visual C too
17:49 <joda_bot> The icon.png is obsolete then for windows
17:50 <z-man> You mean the good-looking icon is now also set in Windows? Cools.
17:50 <z-man> -s
17:50 <joda_bot> I also added about 10 icons for armagetron to exe
17:51 <joda_bot> all different color depth / size combinations of the yellow cycle logo
17:51 <joda_bot> I'll move that stuff to win_libs soon ..
17:52 <joda_bot> Does win_libs/res/icons sound good to you ?
17:52 <z-man> On second thought, they can also stay in the codeblocks build files.
17:52 <joda_bot> The res folder would also contain the other common build stuff ?
17:52 <z-man> It doesn't really matter. With K switching to code::blocks as well, nobody is using visualc any more.
17:53 <joda_bot> well, we can still keep build_visual c around and update it once someone else prefers to use visual_c ?
17:53 <z-man> Do whatever you want with them :)
17:54 <joda_bot> One other question, would be ok to lock the name in "language.txt.in" to Armagetron Advanced ?
17:54 <z-man> I'll try to get the visualC stuff working again (the master already compiles) and try to keep it up to date.
17:54 <joda_bot> instead of using "@progtitle@" ?
17:54 <z-man> No :) Right now, everyone can easily create a fork by just changing the name in one place, or running configure a special way.
17:55 <joda_bot> If the file is missing the name will fall back to "Armagetron" ;)
17:55 <z-man> But if you don't find an easy way to handle that in Windows, sure, hardocde it.
17:55 <joda_bot> it's not hardcoded ;)
17:55  * z-man is too dired for nitpicks :)
17:56 <z-man> hardcoded in the sense that it's coded in a way that makes it hard to change :)
17:56 <joda_bot> right... I should not nitpick ... 
17:56 <z-man> save that for Luke :)
17:56 <joda_bot> z-man: Currently I found it difficult to track the place where the name comes from
17:56 <joda_bot> ;)
17:57 <joda_bot> but I'm fine if you prefer language.txt to keep the @progtitle@...
17:57 <joda_bot> I'll check about using autoconf, automake or m4
17:58 <z-man> Good luck.
17:58  * z-man would love to be able to cross-compile the Windows builds from Linux
17:59 <z-man> Ok, really bedtime now, I'm haluzinating again :)
18:04 <z-man> #night
18:04 <armabot> Good night z-man!
18:06 <joda_bot> good night
18:11 <wrtlprnft> uh, now that we have the local /command thingy, what about a /nick?
18:11 <wrtlprnft> just as an alias for /command PLAYER_!
18:11 <wrtlprnft> just as an alias for /command PLAYER_1
18:11 <wrtlprnft> or PLAYER_X where X is the player who used the command
18:23 -!- z-man [n=manuel@p50873F84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
18:29 -!- GodTodd [n=GodTodd@pool-68-238-155-80.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #armagetron
18:32  * Lucifer_arma is back.
18:32 <wrtlprnft> wb
18:33 <joda_bot> wrtlprnft: how about moving the console commands to a extra file ?
18:33 <wrtlprnft> ?
18:33 <wrtlprnft> what do you mean?
18:33 <joda_bot> wrtlprnft: It's all still inside ePlayer.cpp
18:33 <joda_bot> make a eConsole.cpp which handles the different chat commands
18:34 <wrtlprnft> wouldn't that be eChatCommand?
18:34  * Lucifer_arma is generally in favor of work that turns armagetron into a lot of simple files vs a few complicated files
18:34 <wrtlprnft> I'd prefer the nonsense name static names approach
18:34 <wrtlprnft> like the config system
18:34 <wrtlprnft> so you can register the commands and have them anywhere
18:35 <wrtlprnft> and at the same time add a way to get things called everytime a new round/match etc starts
18:35 <wrtlprnft> that would move lots of stuff out of gGame
18:36 <joda_bot> well I don't mind another solution, but to have all console commands in one place has also advantages
18:36 <Lucifer_arma> that kinda makes sense, although it probably needs to look more like the cockpit callbacks
18:36 <joda_bot> because you know where to start from
18:37 <Lucifer_arma> that way a given game component can provide its own commands to be used
18:37 <wrtlprnft> exactly
18:37 <Lucifer_arma> moving all console commands to one place would be an important first step to what wrtlprnft's talking about :)
18:37 <Lucifer_arma> right, but the component probably needs to provide a callback rather than a value.  Config system provides a value, cockpit system provides a callback.  ;)
18:37 <wrtlprnft> are you talking about the / commands or the console
18:38 <wrtlprnft> ?
18:38 <wrtlprnft> you'd do something like this:
18:38 <wrtlprnft> static void somenonsensenamefunction() {
18:38 <wrtlprnft> no
18:38 <wrtlprnft> static void somenonsensenamefunction(tString const &params) {
18:39 <wrtlprnft> //do something here
18:39 <wrtlprnft> }
18:39 <wrtlprnft> static ChatCommand blah("consoleCommand", &somenonsensenamefunction);
18:40 <wrtlprnft> and everytime you enter /consoleCommand that function will be called
18:40 <wrtlprnft> ChatCommand has to self- register itself in some deque, of course
18:41 <wrtlprnft> like rPerFrameTasks ;)
18:41 <wrtlprnft> and there would be two different ones, one that gets interpreted on the server and one that gets interpreted on the server
18:42 <wrtlprnft> s/server/client/
18:42 <joda_bot> wrtlprnft: In my opinion this is a lazy way to do it , but it does not enforce more structure
18:42 <wrtlprnft> structure? I just want to keep everything that has the same job in the same files
18:43 <joda_bot> if all console commands are collected in a single place, you can easily see their dependencies and their effects are more obvious (to me)
18:43 <joda_bot> ah ok
18:43 <wrtlprnft> so all team managment would be in eTeam
18:43 <wrtlprnft> including the chat commands
18:43 <joda_bot> Ah now I understand you approach
18:43 <wrtlprnft> :)
18:43 <joda_bot> hm
18:43  * wrtlprnft would probably stay in ePlayer
18:44 <wrtlprnft> /me would probably stay in ePlayer
18:44 <wrtlprnft> that's what i meant ;)
18:44 <joda_bot> no, I don't like that
18:44 <joda_bot> ok, will take some time to explain ;)
18:44  * wrtlprnft listens
18:44  * Lucifer_arma wants to be moved to rSDL.h
18:44 <wrtlprnft> lol
18:45 <wrtlprnft> i meant the "/me" command
18:45 <Lucifer_arma> I know.  :)
18:45  * Lucifer_arma will wait until joda explains to read it--cooking dinner and stuff.
18:45 <wrtlprnft> hard to talk about irc style commands in irc eh?
18:45 <wrtlprnft> o_O I'm getting canadianized
18:46 <joda_bot> sorry, got distracted
18:46 <wrtlprnft> if it's long put it on the forums or the wiki, i'd say
18:46 <joda_bot> lol no
18:47 <joda_bot> It's more or less about design
18:47 <joda_bot> Make it a component
18:47 <joda_bot> You have a kind of chat command component
18:47 <joda_bot> which has different "plugins" or instructions
18:47 <joda_bot> If you keep them all in one place you can easily tell what all the commands affect
18:47 <wrtlprnft> hmm
18:48 <wrtlprnft> so you want all the config items in tConfiguration.cpp to keep them all in one place?
18:48 <joda_bot> e.g. you can tell that no command will depend on rRender perhaps
18:49 <joda_bot> well, you're right there that makes it more complicated probably 
18:49 <joda_bot> I was more or less thinking about the chat commands at the moment
18:49 <wrtlprnft> what i'm proposing works exactly like the config items
18:50 <joda_bot> The configuration items, well I'd really like to have ONE  place for them, but putting them in one place get a include list of all the game
18:50 <joda_bot> so it's sword with two edges (at least)
18:50 <joda_bot> hm
18:50 <wrtlprnft> I just think having that static-global-object concept is more extension friendly
18:50 <joda_bot> Perhaps we should separate configitems and settings (menu changeable options)
18:51 <wrtlprnft> you can just add a file like the HUD and don't have to change anything ekse
18:51 <wrtlprnft> *else
18:51 <joda_bot> well it's not object oriented design, but it's not always the best choice anyway
18:52 <joda_bot> ok, perhaps both things can be combined to a degree
18:52 <joda_bot> leave all config items in the diverse files
18:53 <joda_bot> but collect them at the end of the file
18:53 <joda_bot> with their corresponding implementations right above (or in between not sure what is better for overview?)
18:54 <wrtlprnft> you know about the --doc option?
18:54 <wrtlprnft> we might add something for the chat commands as well
18:54 <joda_bot> probably not ;)
18:54 <wrtlprnft> try running arma with --doc
18:54 <joda_bot> I don't mind every configitem to have a chat command alias
18:54 <wrtlprnft> nononoo, please not
18:54 <joda_bot> an optional chat command alias
18:54 <joda_bot> ;)
18:55 <joda_bot> running or building ?
18:55 <wrtlprnft> I meant real chat commands
18:55 <wrtlprnft> just call the binary with it
18:55 <wrtlprnft> like /me and /teamshuffle
18:55 <joda_bot> oh, damn you're talking about "/me" and "/msg" ?
18:55 <wrtlprnft> yes
18:55 <joda_bot> well teamshuffle is not chat related
18:55 <wrtlprnft> exactly
18:55 <joda_bot> and affects the game
18:56 <wrtlprnft> that's why i want it in eTeam
18:56 <Lucifer_arma> ummmm, ok.  I think the console is ultimately going to be replaced by an event loop
18:56 <Lucifer_arma> so we'll have a component that intercepts "chat", parses it for commands and then sends events for commands
18:56 <wrtlprnft> that was fast supper
18:56 <wrtlprnft> LuciEatsPeopleFast
18:56 <Lucifer_arma> if it doesn't have a command, then it sends a chat event instead
18:56  * joda_bot can't beat Lucifer_arma typing
18:56  * Lucifer_arma hasn't eaten yet, just looked around
18:57 <Lucifer_arma> so the distinction between chat and console input will disappear, it'll just be a UI thing
18:57 <joda_bot> hm, not sure if events are not a overhead for this
18:57 <wrtlprnft> why don't we have a tronic fork?
18:57 <wrtlprnft> or tronic knife first?
18:57 <Lucifer_arma> well, everything is going to go into events at some point.
18:57 <Lucifer_arma> game events and ui events.
18:57 <Lucifer_arma> it makes sense to run this through events *when they're there*
18:57 <Lucifer_arma> however, I can't promise that'll be the best way to handle chat commands
18:58 <Lucifer_arma> what we have right now is an object (I forget its name) that does take commands
18:59 <Lucifer_arma> aha, it is tConfItemBase that does it
18:59 <joda_bot> wrtlprnft: I guess I'll think about the chat command and their effects a bit more
18:59 <joda_bot> ;)
18:59 <Lucifer_arma> tConfItemBase::LoadAll()
18:59 <Lucifer_arma> so what I think would be best, personally, is to change the console input widget to be a chat widget that automatically prepends "/console" to whatever is typed
18:59 <wrtlprnft> it finds the correct config item from a list and calls a member of it
19:00 <joda_bot> but having a kind of plugin/callback registry for chat commands like for tConfigItem is a good thing anyway
19:00 <Lucifer_arma> anyway, gotta move on to cook dinner, wash dishes, etc.
19:00 <wrtlprnft> I always saw chat commands more as a hack...
19:00 <wrtlprnft> *helpful* take a dump?
19:00 <Lucifer_arma> that's because they are :)
19:00 <joda_bot> take a dump ?!?! what are you talking about ?
19:00 <Lucifer_arma> but we'd like them to be formalized and properly integrated, too.  :)  Think access permissions and delegation
19:01 <Lucifer_arma> he says "take a dump" is part of "etc"
19:01 <Lucifer_arma> which it probably is :)
19:01 <wrtlprnft> joda_bot: about Lucifer_arma's problems what to do first
19:01 -!- Lucifer_arma is now known as LuciEatsPeople
19:08 -!- nemostultae [n=nemostul@a1174.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #armagetron
19:09 <n54> lol wrtlprnft ^^
19:10 <joda_bot> seems like I missed the joke ;)
19:10 <joda_bot> "take a dump" means ?
19:10 <joda_bot> jump into the trash ?
19:10 <GodTodd> take a shit
19:11 <joda_bot> oh alright
19:11 <n54> Lucifer is always wondering if he should do the dishes then take a dump or the other way around - that's the joke ^^
19:11 <joda_bot> ah ok
19:11 <n54> or more like a tease actually
19:11 <n54> since he's been asking more than once for advice on the matter ^^
19:12 <GodTodd> get a spacesuit...then you don't have to worry about order ;)
19:12 <n54> tht sounds like a sticky solution hehe
19:12  * joda_bot thinks about lucifer entertaining the masses ;)
19:12 <GodTodd> sticky, huh?  what have you been eating? ;)
19:14 <n54> wouldn't matter much now would it GodTodd? ^^
19:15 <GodTodd> :D
19:29 <joda_bot> gn8
19:29 <joda_bot> #topic has been released!
19:29 <joda_bot> :-)
19:30 <joda_bot> #message Luci* change topic to has been ... ;)
19:30 <armabot> joda_bot: The operation succeeded.
19:30 -!- joda_bot [n=anonymou@dslb-084-061-033-183.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #armagetron []
19:35 -!- [NP]Tangent [n=hyperdev@71-211-221-14.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
19:37 <wrtlprnft> guru3: would you mind changing the topic to " has been..."?
19:38 <n54> he's asleep, I'm sure he'll do it at opportunity
19:39 <wrtlprnft> yeah, i'm just sending him that wake thing so he changes it before it is 2 weeks old :P
19:39 <n54> oh ok
19:39 <wrtlprnft> I think LuciEatsPeople posted it in the forums somewhere, maybe tank just didn't read it
19:40 <n54> well it's 0241 over here, not sure when it was posted
19:40 <wrtlprnft> i think it was the day before yesterday your time
19:40 <wrtlprnft> saturday
19:42 <n54> oh... it's monday already :|
19:42 <wrtlprnft> lol
19:42 <wrtlprnft> I thought chronic fatigue had something to do with feeling tired, why aren't you sleeping? j/k
19:43 <n54> not that simple, and it's not exactly the same as cfs
19:43 <n54> and tired and sleepy are two very different things let me assure you - I'm almost constantly tired
19:43  * wrtlprnft just skimmed over the wikipedia page, so don't consider me an expert
19:45 <n54> it's no problem it's a difficult diagnosis and very little is actually known about it except for a common set of symptoms and in the case of ME that it in all likelihood is a viral infection in the nerve system
19:46 <wrtlprnft> you said it will go away, right?
19:46 -!- GodTodd [n=GodTodd@pool-68-238-155-80.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
19:47 -!- nemostultae [n=nemostul@a1174.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit []
19:47 <n54> no, it's cronic, it will never go away but some people manage to reduce it to such a degree it might as well not be there (experts disagree; my specialist says one thing and a neurologist says something different - I'm mroe inclined to believe my specialist since doctors in general have no clue what they're actually dealing with)
19:48 <wrtlprnft> go away or become way better... both good thinks
19:48 <wrtlprnft> i hope it will become better for you :)
19:49 <n54> me too
19:49 <n54> but those possiblities are just possibilities, doesn't apply to everyone etc. (but in my case I've made some progress the last two years)
19:49 <wrtlprnft> I wanna see your unbeatable arma skills :P
19:50 <n54> lol I'll probably suck :)
19:50 <n54> anyone can beat me, that's always been the case :)
19:51 <n54> it just became very rare for a while ^^
19:52 <wrtlprnft> looks like you were good at arma :P
19:53 <n54> overall yeah, but there were others that were better, I'm oretty sure of that, like WarMonkey and Commie and probably Subby too
19:53 <n54> pretty*
19:53 <n54> I just played a lot
19:54 <wrtlprnft> well, then all those most likely played too much arma :P
19:54 <n54> probably ^^
19:55 <n54> WarMonkey loved to do laps, I don't know if anyone does that anymore
19:56 <LuciEatsPeople> #g 1.296/3
19:56 <armabot> LuciEatsPeople: 1.29600 / 3 = 0.432
19:58 <n54> btw does the map-making stuff enable making a square circle?
19:59  * n54 might have asked before
20:03 <wrtlprnft> yes, almost
20:03 <wrtlprnft> you can make a regular polygon with many sides
20:03 <LuciEatsPeople> #g 1.3/3
20:03 <armabot> LuciEatsPeople: 1.3 / 3 = 0.433333333
20:04 <n54> I was thinking more of like an arena that is a square with a big square "hole" in the middle
20:05 <wrtlprnft> square with a square hole?
20:05 <n54> yup
20:05 <wrtlprnft> you mean, like a roundabout?
20:05 <wrtlprnft> sure, why not?
20:05 <wrtlprnft> http://wrtlprnft.ath.cx/arma/?min=211&max=217
20:05 <n54> cool
20:05 <wrtlprnft> there's a circle
20:05 <wrtlprnft> i have no better shots, sorry
20:06 <n54> ah yeah I've seen those at the forum
20:06 <wrtlprnft> did i link them? oh, ok
20:06 <wrtlprnft> but no, that would be easy
20:07 <n54> the thing about those curved arenas and trails; it can't be any good for grinding?
20:07 -!- MaZuffeR [n=MaZuffeR@darkmoor.sby.abo.fi] has quit ["-"]
20:07 <wrtlprnft> no, it's not
20:08 <n54> ah ok
20:08 <wrtlprnft> but curved rim walls basically get rid of wallhugging :P
20:08 <wrtlprnft> if someone grinds it hard enough and then turns away, it is unbeatable
20:08 <wrtlprnft> like this: (i love ascii art)
20:09 <n54> yeah that's fair if one want's to avoid it, however lapping _is_ wallhugging :)
20:09 <wrtlprnft> /---------
20:09 <wrtlprnft> |
20:09 <wrtlprnft> |
20:09 <wrtlprnft> |
20:09 <wrtlprnft> |
20:09 <wrtlprnft> where the / is the rim wall
20:09 <wrtlprnft> no, but you don't get people doing 180 degree turns against walls
20:10 <n54> imagine wallhugging but with 2-4 participants all "hugging each other" as close to the wall and each other trails as possible; that's lapping
20:11 <wrtlprnft> o_O whatever you say :P
20:12 <wrtlprnft> #last --from wrtlprnft --with o_O --nolimit
20:12 <armabot> wrtlprnft: [20:11:26] <wrtlprnft> o_O whatever you say :P and [18:45:54] <wrtlprnft> o_O I'm getting canadianized
20:12 <n54> it's kind of fun, it's not really competetive but rather more cooperation trying to see how many laps one can do with how many
20:12 <wrtlprnft> #last --with sdfsfgsgfasfgasf
20:12 <armabot> wrtlprnft: Error: I couldn't find a message matching that criteria in my history of 880 messages.
20:12 <n54> :)
20:12 <wrtlprnft> 880 messages?!
20:12 <wrtlprnft> how lame is that?
20:13 <wrtlprnft> grr it got disconnected earlier
20:13 <wrtlprnft> it was over 15000
20:13 <n54> :o
20:13 <wrtlprnft> 21:54 <armabot> Error: I couldn't find a message matching that criteria in my history of 23953 messages
20:13 <wrtlprnft> that was yesterday
20:14 <n54> XD
20:26  * spidey yawns
20:27 <wrtlprnft> morning/evening/night/whatever
20:31 <spidey> hmmm
20:32 <wrtlprnft> whatever your "internal" time is
20:32 <n54> :)
20:33 <spidey> it's morning for me
20:33 <spidey> but it's also  8:30pm
20:33 <wrtlprnft> hmm
20:33 <wrtlprnft> maybe your brain is getting am and pm mixed up?
20:33 <wrtlprnft> or it lives in australia or somewhere?
20:34 <spidey> lol
20:34 <spidey> dunno
20:34 <spidey> but i'm still tired
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20:58 <wrtlprnft> looks like rScreen.cpp doesn't like tColor.cpp O_o
20:58 <wrtlprnft> *rColor.cpp
21:08 -!- deja_vu [n=deja_vu@p5090B239.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #armagetron
21:10 <wrtlprnft> grr
21:11 <wrtlprnft> there i have a rColor class to make my life easier and now i can't use it
21:12 <n54> :S
21:13 <wrtlprnft> or, now i can
21:13 <wrtlprnft> no idea why rScreen.h included rFont.h
21:13 <wrtlprnft> no apparent reason
21:14 <wrtlprnft> the trouble was that rScreen.h included rFont.h included rColor.h included rRender.h
21:14 <wrtlprnft> but rScreen.h doesn't work with rRender.h already included
21:14 <wrtlprnft> or, no, still won't work :(
21:15 <wrtlprnft> WHAT?
21:15 <wrtlprnft> #ifndef DONTDOIT
21:15 <wrtlprnft> #define glBegin        #error glBegin disabled
21:15 <wrtlprnft> #define glEnd          #error glEnd   disabled
21:15 <wrtlprnft> #define glMatrixMode   #error glEnd   disabled
21:15 <wrtlprnft> #endif
21:16 <wrtlprnft> such nonsense. why?
21:16  * wrtlprnft defines DONTDOIT
21:17 <wrtlprnft> grr. the stats script ignored fcukfcuk :(
21:19 <wrtlprnft> #later tell z-man can you enlighten me about DONTDOIT? why shouldn't i use glMatrixMode()?
21:19 <armabot> wrtlprnft: The operation succeeded.
21:20 <n54> dont do it ;P
21:20 <n54> :)
21:21  * wrtlprnft just did a #define DONTDOIT and wonders if he's gonna regret it
21:21 <n54> hehe :)
21:21 <n54> well you will find out ;)
21:24 -!- deja_vu_ [n=deja_vu@p5090AD16.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:24  * wrtlprnft wonders how much you have to smoke to call a define DONTDOIT
21:25 <wrtlprnft> and WHAT :D
21:25 <n54> hehe
21:27 -!- GodTodd [n=GodTodd@c-71-199-204-144.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #armagetron
21:28 <Luke-Jr> #later tell joda_bot Maybe extend our support for variables (${HOME} etc) to more than just paths? Eg, ${programname} or such
21:28 <Luke-Jr> LuciEatsPeople: fix the bot?
21:28 <wrtlprnft> #later tell joda_bot Maybe extend our support for variables (${HOME} etc) to more than just paths? Eg, ${programname} or such
21:28 <armabot> wrtlprnft: The operation succeeded.
21:28 <wrtlprnft> it just ignores you, it seems
21:29 <wrtlprnft> #m joda_bot (that last message was from Luke-Jr, armabot ignores him)
21:29 <armabot> wrtlprnft: The operation succeeded.
21:29  * Luke-Jr was going to tell z-man too
21:30 <wrtlprnft> #later tell z-man* (From Luke-Jr, armabot ignores him): Maybe extend our support for variables (${HOME} etc) to more than just paths? Eg, ${programname} or such
21:30 <armabot> wrtlprnft: The operation succeeded.
21:33 -!- LuciEatsPeople is now known as Lucifer_arma
21:33 <Lucifer_arma> Luke-Jr: I might fix the bot if you quit acting like a kid
21:34 <wrtlprnft> o_O
21:34 <wrtlprnft> the only one that acts like a kid on that poor bot is me :P
21:34 <wrtlprnft> #f
21:34 <armabot> Random Fortune:  OS/2 must die!
21:37 <spidey> Lucifer_arma, wanna go another night of fortress?
21:41 <Lucifer_arma> spidey: not really, got calculus homework to do
21:42 <spidey> :(
21:42 <Lucifer_arma> I"ll probably be on there a bit, just not all night :)
21:42 <spidey> :)
21:43 <spidey> tuesday on i won't on on that much
21:43 <spidey> i'm going to my moms for a week
21:45 <Lucifer_arma> should I rip my neighbor's christian rock band's cd?
21:46 <spidey> i don't like it,so don't take my advice ;p
21:46 <Lucifer_arma> they're a wanna-be pop band
21:46  * Lucifer_arma wasn't impressed by it
21:46 <spidey> heh
21:47 <Lucifer_arma> so, is it "I am hicking-up", or "I am hic-upping"?
21:47 <spidey> lol
21:47 <GodTodd> depends on where in TX you are :D
21:48 <Lucifer_arma> my kids say the latter, but I say the former :)
21:50 <Lucifer_arma> GodTodd: you start school yet?
21:51  * spidey is going to pwn fortress
21:52 <GodTodd> appears it is "hiccupping"
21:52 <GodTodd> not yet...starting in august
21:53 <Lucifer_arma> fall semester?
21:54 <GodTodd> yep
21:54 <GodTodd> gonna have to take trig and precal too :/
21:54 <Lucifer_arma> what are you taking?
21:54 <GodTodd> dunno yet
21:54 <GodTodd> have to see when the fall schedule is posted
21:54 <Lucifer_arma> you should be able to double up on trig and precal, but that's a lot of work :)
21:55 <GodTodd> i know....i might....MIGHT try it tho ;)
21:55 <GodTodd> depends on what else i take...probably start with 2 or 3 classes is all
21:55 <Lucifer_arma> I'd recommend it, if you have the time to keep up with it.  The two classes compliment each other.
21:56 <GodTodd> that would put me in calc I in spring...that's a big upside
21:56 <wrtlprnft> #night
21:56 <armabot> Good night wrtlprnft!
21:57 <Lucifer_arma> 'night wrtlprnft 
21:57 <Lucifer_arma> that is a big upside.  :)
21:58 <Lucifer_arma> consider that your degree starts with calc I in the first semester, if you burn too many core classes getting to that point, math will bottleneck you later
21:58 <Lucifer_arma> that's why I skipped college algebra and precalculus, to avoid that bottleneck :)
21:58 <Lucifer_arma> I've only got 2 core classes left, one of which I"ll take at ACC (probably next spring, maybe next summer), the other I'm waiting to take at UT
21:58 <GodTodd> how'd you skip them?
21:59 <Lucifer_arma> ummmm......  by being sneaky :)
21:59 <GodTodd> hmmm
21:59 <Lucifer_arma> I took intermediate algebra, tested into it.
21:59 <Lucifer_arma> At the time, they said if you got a B or higher, you could skip college algebra and go to trig.  So I did that.
21:59 <Lucifer_arma> My trig teacher was pretty impressed with me, at least a little bit, and we worked out a deal where he wouldn't press me for prerequisites if I took Calc I from him
22:00 <Lucifer_arma> in exchange I had to do well in calc I, which I did.  Got an A, after all.  :)
22:00 <GodTodd> cool :)
22:00 <Lucifer_arma> an understood part of the deal was that if I fucked up in calc I, I'd take precalculus before attempting calc I again, but that didn't happen.
22:01 <GodTodd> i don't think i'll get that lucky....tho i did ace college algebra in an experimental 5 week course....helped teach half the class ;)
22:01 <Lucifer_arma> right now, calc 2 would be a bottleneck for me, if I had finished general chem and had taken general physics.  But since I dropped chem and didn't take physics yet, it's not.
22:02 <Lucifer_arma> algebra's easy.  :)
22:02 <GodTodd> yep
22:02 <GodTodd> tho i was the only A and half the class flunked so they scrapped it after that quarter
22:02 <GodTodd> heh
22:02 <Lucifer_arma> so in the fall I'll be taking general chem and general physics, and calc 3.  Should be interesting, 2 algebra classes and calc 3.
22:02 <Lucifer_arma> half the class flunked?  Why didn't they drop?
22:03  * Lucifer_arma notes that of 30 students or so, only 4 were left to take the calc 1 final
22:03 <GodTodd> they thought they could 'get it' and it's a very narrow drop window in a 5 week course
22:03 <Lucifer_arma> man.  that's just wishful thinking.  Your GPA doesn't constitute any wishful thinking.
22:03 <GodTodd> nope
22:03 -!- bashusr [n=bashusr@c-71-192-194-10.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
22:04 <GodTodd> tho the whole thing with my ex a few years ago shot my AAS GPA all to hell :/
22:04 <GodTodd> ended up with a 3.289
22:04 <Lucifer_arma> still, how bad can an F hurt you?  You have to retake the class anyway or you can't use it as a prerequisite for other classes, so you may as well stick around for a little bit.
22:05 <GodTodd> truly
22:06 <Lucifer_arma> maybe they treat F's special?
22:07 <GodTodd> not at MCC they didn't....just a gpa ding and a retake
22:07 <GodTodd> faced that myself once :/
22:07 <Lucifer_arma> I knew a guy last semester who was retaking classes he'd got C's in becuse he needed to raise his GPA to fatten it up for a real admission application
22:08 <GodTodd> yeah...i've seen that
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22:10 <Lucifer_arma> no, it's not uncommon, my point was that an F can't hurt that badly compared to dropping the class since you have to retake it anyway,
22:11 <Lucifer_arma> and when you retake it, your new grade replaces your old one, they don't sit side by side
22:11 <n54> yup same here - got you now
22:11 <Lucifer_arma> there are other side effects, depending on your gpa, though.  You could wind up on academic probation, and if you don't fix it quickly you could get kicked out
22:12 <Lucifer_arma> if you previously had really good standing (like me :)  ), you lose that with an F, but not if you drop it.
22:12 <n54> also similar
22:12 <Lucifer_arma> right, so if you were already a borderline student, especially with only a few credit hours completed, an F probably does hurt a lot compared to a drop
22:12 <n54> at uni-level here it's usual to drop rather than get a really bad grade, it's ok as long as you do it well in advance and not too often
22:13 <Lucifer_arma> same here.  There's a ratio of completed vs attempted credit hours you have to keep above a certain level
22:13 <n54> or used to be at least - I didn't get enough experience with the new system to say it's still like that
22:14 <Lucifer_arma> if not, you have to retake classes you attempted.  There's a window, too, so you have to have that ratio above a certain level for the previous 3 years or something like that
22:14 <n54> ok here it's sort of simpler (or used to be) as you'ld eventually loose financial support (study.loans and grants etc.)
22:14 <Lucifer_arma> I can't see somebody changing that part of the game.  Being able to make a tactical retreat, and doing so successfully is part of what we're in college to learn, right?  And show that we've learned...
22:15 <Lucifer_arma> you don't get kicked out if that ratio is too low, you lose financial support, but when your degree is awarded, they consider a certain period, and that ratio has to be above a certain level during that period
22:15 <n54> ok
22:16 <Lucifer_arma> if not, no degree, you have to retake classes as needed and change the period to be considered, which might well mean retaking early classes that now fall outside the window
22:16 <n54> that sounds a bit strange to me
22:17 <Lucifer_arma> I think they're trying to avoid handing out degrees to kids that go to school, take some classes in one degree, decide it's too hard for them, drop those classes, then start on a another degree, do the same thing, etc.
22:17 <Lucifer_arma> If you finish with the degree you set out to get, it's nearly impossible to drop too many classes, unless you're just having a hard time or not cut out for college
22:18 <n54> hmm ok but afew false starts, especially if they're straight from school, isn't that uncommon or strange imo
22:18 <n54> oh college
22:18 <Lucifer_arma> the attitude is that you're better off quitting for awhile and figuring out what you want before starting again
22:18 <n54> sorry was thinking uni :)
22:18 <n54> yup
22:18 <Lucifer_arma> mostly uni = college, eh?
22:18 <n54> that makes sense
22:19 <n54> err, you americans and your strange renaming of everything lol ;)
22:19 <Lucifer_arma> haha
22:19 <Lucifer_arma> it only matters when you say "I went to the College of Engineering".  Oh yeah?  What university?
22:19 <n54> in the rest of the world college 1= university :)
22:19 <n54> !=*
22:20 <n54> but anyways; ok :)
22:21 <Lucifer_arma> I'm not sure, but I think the earlier withdrawals disappear if you retake the class, but I could be wrong on it.  Also, seems like an F or a D should count as a withdrawal in that ratio
22:22 <n54> something is usually seriously wrong if you below C (or 3 many places) anyway
22:22 <n54> you're
22:22 <n54> but I guess in a few cases people can be nunaware of it until they get the result, perhaps that explains it
22:24  * n54 shouldn't speak as he became terrified of exams first time round at university after flowing through the initial one
22:24 <Lucifer_arma> F usually means "didn't show up most of the time and didn't learn anything"
22:24 <n54> f is for "fail" simply, isn't it?
22:24 <Lucifer_arma> D usually means the same thing.  I agree that you should get at least a C or something's wrong.  For me, it should be an A or something's wrong.  :)
22:24 <Lucifer_arma> I was passing chem when I dropped it, heh.
22:25 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, but you have to consider what it takes to get an F
22:25 <n54> s/flowing through/acing
22:26 <Lucifer_arma> you have to basically not have heard any of the lecture.  Just hearing it, paying attention, and remembering it should get you to a D
22:26 <Lucifer_arma> with some of the simpler courses like history, many can get C's just by paying attention to the lecture.
22:27 <Lucifer_arma> B and A are supposed to mean "put out extra effort and deserves recognition for it".  C means "competent with the material"
22:27 <n54> I always just map a-f to 6-1 (IB) or 1-6 (old uni system here)
22:27 <Lucifer_arma> hmmm, A is a 4.  :)  B is 3, C is 2, D is 1, and F is 0.
22:28 <Lucifer_arma> I guess y'all have an extra grade in there, otherwise it's +1 everything
22:28 <n54> perhaps where you are :)
22:28 <Lucifer_arma> I don't know of any american schools that do it differently, but they may be there.  :)
22:28 <n54> you don't have e's?
22:28 <Lucifer_arma> no, no e's.
22:28 <n54> never gone to any american school, no idea
22:29 <Lucifer_arma> the issue is transferring.  If a school uses a different scale to compute GPA, how does it transfer?
22:29 <Lucifer_arma> So GPA needs to be the same scale.  Your universities probably have a conversion from our scale, and vice versa.
22:29 <n54> well actually I've been a teaching assistant for a special class at the american school in singapore... but that doesn't count :D
22:30 <Lucifer_arma> but a university that adopts a different scale is going to basically be shut off in the ass end of nowhere, no matter how good they are.
22:30 <n54> lol that's just plain wrong sorry :)
22:30 <n54> you're talking about all of europe there ;)
22:31 <n54> (at least)
22:31 <Lucifer_arma> umm.  If someone starts a school in europe that uses a different scale, how well will the rest of the universities take their transfers?
22:32 <n54> they make conversiion scales and it's usually specific to countries/school systems
22:32 <n54> but they absolutely don't just ignore them :)
22:32 <Lucifer_arma> ?  really?  So what kind of paperwork nightmare will students face when they try to transfer?
22:33 <Lucifer_arma> The system can accept them all they want, but if the barrier to transfer is too high, people won't do it.  Then the new university with the weird scale winds up in the ass end of nowhere.
22:33 <n54> well when I was "courted" in singapore it was pretty easy, the university accepting your application does that work as they decide upon the calculation of grades
22:33 <n54> it's not much work really
22:34 <n54> nope Lucifer it doesn't :)
22:34 <n54> it really isn't such a big problem
22:34  * Lucifer_arma isn't convinced.  There's a reason there are standards, after all...
22:34 <n54> ehh hehe look there are standards elsewhere than the us you know, some are quite a bit stricter too ;)
22:34 <Lucifer_arma> it's easier to transfer in-state because all universities in a given state have the same legislative requirements
22:35 <Lucifer_arma> so people try not to transfer out of state unless they have to.  Even so, the transfer usually results in loss of credit from classes that aren't accepted where you go.
22:35 <n54> you don't have a national/federal one? :O
22:35 <n54> yikes sounds as it was easier for me with IB than for you guys
22:35 <n54> not that I could afford it anyway
22:35 <Lucifer_arma> we're talking individual classes here.  Your GPA is still used to rate you against competitors
22:36 <Lucifer_arma> and taht rating is used regardless of which classes are accepted for credit.
22:36 <n54> oh individual class comparison, hmm well I don't know anything about the us system concerning international applicants on that, only the UK and EU ones (which don't seem to be any problem)
22:36 <Lucifer_arma> So if the university you started from has a different scale, and there is no independent third party to certify the conversion given, you just got passed up in favor of kids that can be measured by their GPA
22:38 <n54> but I do know it's next to impossible to get US degrees accepted officially over here in norway at least in a few fields (which is stupid)
22:38 <Lucifer_arma> ?  isn't it up to employers to decide?
22:38 <n54> no, not certain stuff, especially medical education
22:39 <n54> stuff that requires a valid license
22:39 <Lucifer_arma> ahhh, right.  That's similar here.  It's the same issue, you hae to have a degree that's visible to the standardizing body
22:39 <Lucifer_arma> if the body doesn't have a view into the education system where you got your degree, again, it doesn't matter how good you are or the school you went to
22:39 <Lucifer_arma> it can't be verified
22:40 <n54> those are exceptions though, usually all this stuff isn't a trouble at all
22:41 <Lucifer_arma> well, there's a call to tighten restrictions here on medical certifications.  There's been a rash of doctors that got degrees in Saudi Arabia and some other places that have done some pretty gnarly things.
22:41 <n54> good that they restrict it then
22:41 <Lucifer_arma> and there are some who say that the damage wouldn't have been as bad if those doctors had been US-educated
22:42 <n54> hopefully true
22:42 <Lucifer_arma> hopefully.  But do't throw the baby out, some of those doctors come from countries they probably don't really want to live in for good reason, heh.  They came to america looking for a better life,
22:43 <Lucifer_arma> let's not bar them from doing that because of where they got their education.  Instead, help them to meet the requirements here.
22:43 <Lucifer_arma> still, there's that Indian doctor who was wanted for murder in India because of his practices, and they totally passed over that and let him practice in Seattle.  Definitely some systemic problems, there
22:43 <n54> not so sure I agree there, if its found severely lacking then it shouldn't be accepted
22:44 <n54> yup
22:44 <Lucifer_arma> not saying accept the degree, accept the person and put him in school to pick up the differences to he can still practice here.
22:45 <n54> yeah but who'll pay for that? still to some extent that is done here but some times you would end up with people getting a complete reeducation
22:45 <n54> so it isn't done
22:46 <Lucifer_arma> dont' know.  :)  depends on the case, I suppose.  Too many factors there, but at least put him on an even playing field with other international students.
22:46 <n54> the only real solution is to aim for international standards
22:47 <Lucifer_arma> the problem with international standards, not that I disagree with you, is getting poorer countries to be able to meet them.
22:47 <Lucifer_arma> still, maybe a poorer country would be able to adjust their system so they can meet the lower parts of the standards so at least their graduates can transfer easily internationally.
22:47 <n54> yup, but that's their choice really, a minimum standard isn't really a cost issue
22:48 <Lucifer_arma> basically offer 2-year degrees in lieu of 4-year degrees where the 2-year degrees meet international standards.
22:48 <n54> it's about transparancy
22:48 <n54> and reliability
22:48 <Lucifer_arma> hmmm, not sure.  Transparency is a requirement, sure, but there's also minimum level of education.  If the school's still teaching bleeding patients, it doesn't matter how transparent they are :)
22:49 <n54> yup it does because then you know they're teaching that
22:49 <Lucifer_arma> (you might laugh, but my wife took my kids to a Japanese doctor who tried to bleed my daughter during her checkup.  She never went back to him)
22:49 <n54> depends what you mean by "bleed"
22:49 <Lucifer_arma> my point is the school's medical degree can't meet international standards if that's what they're teaching.
22:49 <GodTodd> bleed == leeches
22:50 <Lucifer_arma> it wasn't a blood test, he ws just going to cut her arm and have her bleed into the sink.
22:50 <GodTodd> well...that idea anyway
22:50 <n54> sounds like a quack (and japan isn't exactly lacking in good schools)
22:50 <Lucifer_arma> he was an old WWII surgeon, had been practicing for a very long time
22:51 <Lucifer_arma> japan's been through quite a few changes the last 70 years or so, his education predates many of those changes
22:51 <n54> talk about irrelevant example! ;)
22:51 <Lucifer_arma> he might still have been a quack, I wasn't there :)
22:52 <Lucifer_arma> well, japan's been rebuilt from the ground up and got the modernizing that went with it.  Anybody else get that?  Sudan, perhaps?
22:52 <Lucifer_arma> congo?
22:52 <n54> lol those are non-states
22:52 <Lucifer_arma> heh, Nigeria.  :)  My Texas Government teacher was educated by the Peace corps, because Nigeria doesn't have a public education system.
22:52 <Lucifer_arma> Sudan has a government, don't they?
22:53 <Lucifer_arma> Oh wait, they have like 3 governments and that's the problem.
22:53 <n54> well in name only really
22:54 <Lucifer_arma> and when they do have a government?  What will that government direct its schools to teach, assuming it builds schools?
22:54 <n54> they have fuckload of people claiming to muslim who arent in the slightest and who like to kill anyone around, especially if they're black or christian <-- their main problem
22:54 <Lucifer_arma> aha, that's where your international standards kicks in.  :)
22:54 <n54> I don't even know what point you're trying to get at :)
22:55 <n54> international standards are voluntary anyway
22:55 <Lucifer_arma> what would a government with a culture that still thinks female genital mutilation strengthens reproductive health teach in their medical school?
22:55 <n54> nothing that's even close to an international standard - what ar you trying to say+
22:55 <n54> ?*
22:55 <Lucifer_arma> right, they have to be voluntary, but if you want to attract foreign investment, you really need to meet quite a few of them, especially the ones that determine the quality of your workforce
22:56 <Lucifer_arma> well, then Sudan would have a choice.  Meet the international standards and have doctors that are considered skilled in the rest of the world, or don't.
22:56 <n54> only lad & co invests in sudan, I really don't see your point, take a less extreme example :)
22:56 <Lucifer_arma> Foreign investment gets tied with it.
22:56 <Lucifer_arma> put a skilled workforce in Sudan and a stable government and who else is interested in it?
22:57 <n54> that would take an invasion ;) or about fifty years at least
22:57 <Lucifer_arma> not really important to the discussion.  :)  I guess my point is that your international stndards give them something to aim for that they can use to measure their own progress
22:57 <n54> and the "government" there is already crying foul over a few thousand UN and AU troops
22:57 <Lucifer_arma> same is true for other countries.
22:57 <n54> yes it gives them a choice
22:58 <Lucifer_arma> Qadaffi's managed to turn Libya around a bit, and he wants to attract foreign investment into Africa.  How's he going to get that?
22:58 <n54> and it does work for the rest of the somewhat civililzed world
22:58 <Lucifer_arma> one way is by reforming Libyan schools.  He's worked hard on that.
22:58 <n54> yup Gadhaffi actually has done wuite a lot of good
22:58 <n54> quite*
22:59 <Lucifer_arma> it's the same issue anywhere.  Texas education standards have helped attract quite a few investors into the state.
22:59 <Lucifer_arma> Other states with lower/nonexistant standards tend to lose investors, which means shitty economies (simple terms, here, obviously)
22:59 <n54> yes I would imagine it has, it is a simple fairly foolprooflogic to it
23:00 <n54> has*
23:00 <n54> another stellar example would he the asian tiger economies
23:00 <n54> be*
23:00  * Lucifer_arma doesn't know much about those
23:01 <n54> and some african nations are actually doing pretty well too, at least in some areas
23:01 <Lucifer_arma> those the economies based on prostitution?  ;)
23:01 <n54> eh?
23:01 <n54> you haven't heard of the asian tiger economies?
23:01 <n54> or was that about arican countries?
23:01 <Lucifer_arma> not in those terms.
23:01 <n54> african*
23:01  * Lucifer_arma doesn't know
23:01  * n54 wonders wtf luci is talking about now
23:02 <Lucifer_arma> all's I know is that a country that welcomes foreign investment and isn't stuck in a civil war is probably improving right now
23:02 <n54> angola
23:02 <n54> sar of course
23:02 <n54> nigeria actually, although they still have a long way to go
23:03 <Lucifer_arma> ummm, there's an issue here about whether or not a person is guilty of pedophilia/statutory rape if he's overseas and sleeps with a prostitue in a place where it's legal for her age
23:03 <n54> it's illegal
23:03 <Lucifer_arma> naturally what goes along with that is the idea that prostitution is so widespread in some of the southeast asian countries that their economies are based on it
23:03 <n54> heh bullshit
23:04  * Lucifer_arma doesn't know the specific facts of the issue, just that it's been brought up in the last 5 years or so
23:04 <n54> you might be thinking of one country and one country alone; thailand
23:04 <n54> still it's not based on it
23:05 <Lucifer_arma> no, that's somewhat obviously a joke, except there are people around here who really do think that most southeast asian countries' economies are based on american tourism
23:06 <n54> outside south east asia I would think the phillipines has problems with prostitution too but to say that either country has an economy based on it is.... *no word*
23:06 <Lucifer_arma> note that these are the same people who complain about all electronics coming from asia
23:06 <Lucifer_arma> Asia isn't a place to them, it's just one of those magical places that produces DVD players, computers, and people for them to hate
23:06 <n54> yeah nad the morons in europe think the us lives off war, what can I say, stupid people everywhere :)
23:06 <n54> and*
23:08 <Lucifer_arma> of course, these are the same people that arranged huge supply drops for the tsunami victims a couple of years ago
23:08 <n54> not liek they were the only ones ;) but yeah
23:08 <Lucifer_arma> then they couldn't find anybody to take them, right away.  Eventually they managed to get the stuff sent over, though.
23:08 <n54> stupid != not nice
23:08 <Lucifer_arma> no, of course not.  Plenty of people willing to help.  :)
23:09 <n54> :)
23:09 <n54> actually the US navy did a tremendous job from the get-go
23:09 <n54> in indonesia
23:10  * n54 doesn't recall the name of the aircraft carrier
23:13 <n54> which is very nice considering that north-western area of indonesia is the one with most islamist tendencies (or at least used to be)
23:16 <Lucifer_arma> #g 0.3 * 44100
23:16 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 0.3 * 44,100 = 13,230
23:17 <Lucifer_arma> #g 13230/512
23:17 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 13,230 / 512 = 25.8398438
23:17 <spidey> stop using the bot as a calculator :p
23:17 <n54> it's very handy
23:18 <n54> and much faster than loading an entire page or opening a calculator prog
23:18 <spidey> #g 123+321*456/654
23:18 <armabot> spidey: 123 + ((321 * 456) / 654) = 346.816514
23:18 <n54> see? :) *loves that feature*
23:18 <spidey> lol
23:19 <n54> I say go for it :)
23:21 <spidey> #g 987*654+321-123+456*789
23:21 <armabot> spidey: (987 * 654) + 321 - 123 + (456 * 789) = 1,005,480
23:22 <Lucifer_arma> yes, the bot is a much handier calculator, but I do frequently use a python interpreter too.
23:22 <Lucifer_arma> what I just computed is that in the trunk, you can set sound_buffer_size as high as 25 and only get 300 milliseconds of latency in sound.
23:23 <Lucifer_arma> so if your computer is really slow, you should have playable sound at that upper limit.
23:24 <n54> cool, yeah if python is already "invoked" that's fast too
23:24 <Lucifer_arma> depends on what's closer to me, my terminal window or my irc window :)
23:24 <n54> :)
23:30 <Lucifer_arma> remind me to work out some way to time a build.  I'd like to compare the time to build using "make", and using "make -j4" with distcc
23:31  * spidey is watching the alien interview
23:32 <n54> wrap it in a timer? not sure exactly how/which timer
23:32 <n54> cron might be enough?
23:32  * n54 takes a look
23:32 <Lucifer_arma> just a simple bash script that gets the time before certain steps and calls them should suffice.
23:33 <Lucifer_arma> and afterwards, of course, and then computes the time taken
23:33 <n54> ok
23:35 <n54> at -m might be all to it
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23:38 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, I just found time, finding at still (it's farther down the page)
23:38 <n54> ok I just snooped through a few obsd man pages on a whim
23:38 <Lucifer_arma> no, at is for scheduling
23:39 <n54> *looks up time*
23:39 <Lucifer_arma> http://www.tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/timedate.html
23:39 <n54> yes it is but it will give you a strat (specified by you and -m mails you afterwards which will include a timestamp)
23:40 <n54> sorry I'll stick to the obsd stuff since I'm trying to get familiar with it :)
23:40 <n54> ah yeah time should be it
23:41 <Lucifer_arma> I've got a bunch of ogg encoding jobs running right now, not a very good measurement available until that's done
23:41 <Lucifer_arma> then I'm gonna go tear up fortress a bit
23:42 <n54> according to the version I'mr eading about it reports system overhead which should include "everything else" imo
23:43 <n54> or at least it's specific as to how much time whatever it is timing took, not everything else
23:45 <n54> hmm any idea what rusage might refer to? resource usage?
23:46 <n54> sorry nevermind, found out and it is :)
23:52 <n54> meh I annoy the hell out of myself right now, hope I haven't annoyed you guys too and if so I apologize - cya all :)
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