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Log from 2006-06-01:
--- Day changed Thu Jun 01 2006
00:29 <spidey> wanna pwn cvs luci?
00:29 <Lucifer_arma> few minutes, I've got a cd ripping and a compile going.  When both of those are done, sure
00:29 <spidey> k ;D
00:30  * Lucifer_arma is getting his cd collection ripped to ogg vorbis finally.
00:30 <spidey> hehehe
00:30 <Lucifer_arma> it's on the fifth of 12 songs
00:30 <spidey> luckily my stereo plays music burnt in data format
00:30 <spidey> so i can fit hella lot of songs on 1 cd
00:35 <Lucifer_arma> well, I admit, I'm doing it for the car computer I"m putting together.  :)  I want to fit more songs on the 4GB hard drive
00:35 <Lucifer_arma> I have a 13GB collection, but most of it I don't have in original uncompressed format, so I'm trimming what I can.
00:35 <spidey> lmao
00:36 -!- z-man [n=manuel@p50873C86.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #armagetron
00:36 <Lucifer_arma> that's nice, distcc is finally working
00:36 <spidey> i wonder
00:36 <spidey> if my stereo will play music burnt on a dvd -r in data format
00:37 <spidey> know any dvd -r burners for linux?
00:37 <Lucifer_arma> cdrdao
00:37 <spidey> k
00:37 <Lucifer_arma> k3b should support it just fine
00:38 <Lucifer_arma> oh wait, you're a gnomer aren't you?
00:38 <spidey> kde
00:39 <spidey> installing flux when i get unlazy
00:50 <Lucifer_arma> yay, we have /console now :)
00:51 <Lucifer_arma> ok, going to fortress
00:56 <spidey> kk
01:01 -!- z-man [n=manuel@p50873C86.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
01:09 <spidey> ;p;
01:09 <spidey> lol
01:33 <Lucifer_arma> #message wrtlprnft hey, ummm, why do callbacks have to be members of cCockpit?
01:33 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: The operation succeeded.
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02:43 -!- joda_bot [n=anonymou@dslb-084-061-036-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #armagetron
02:44 <spidey> hey joda :)
02:44 <joda_bot> hi
02:44  * node7 greets everybody before sitting down, eating a cracker and idling :)
04:07 -!- z-man-work is now known as z-man
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04:44 -!- MaZuffeR [n=MaZuffeR@darkmoor.sby.abo.fi] has joined #armagetron
05:36 -!- n54 [n=n54@138.80-203-102.nextgentel.com] has joined #armagetron
06:52 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: yes they do currently
06:53 <wrtlprnft> they need the m_Player, m_ViewportPlayer, etc, which is stored in cCockpit ;)
06:53 <wrtlprnft> or some of them do, actually most
06:54 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: /console gets interpreted on the client?
07:10 <z-man> wrtlprnft: cvscheck is now devcheck. we may be adding darcs mirrors, and "make svncheck && darcs push" just doesn't sound right :)
07:11 <z-man>  /console is interpreted on the client, yes. It would be fatal if the server did it :) But I think it's not in the right spot yet.
07:13 <wrtlprnft> maybe we should add another key for commands interpreted on the client? That's a mess right now methinks
07:13 <wrtlprnft> like #console blah, #vote pimp
07:20 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: it doesn't crash for me, but i don't see explosions, either :(
07:22 <wrtlprnft> z-man: does the client know what zone belongs to which team?
07:22 <z-man> about #: maybe, yes.
07:22 <z-man> about zones: no.
07:22 <z-man> It just knows the color.
07:23 <z-man> Umm, I guess that makes ed's feature request a bit difficult...
07:23 <wrtlprnft> that's what i mean
07:23 <z-man> The client doesn't even know whether it's a win, kill or fortress zone.
07:23 <z-man> We'd need server determined HUD elements, it seems.
07:23 <wrtlprnft> I mean, i could just compare the color with the team color, but that's a hack
07:23 <z-man> eek
07:24 <wrtlprnft> the trouble with those server HUD elements is, how does the client know where to place them?
07:24 <z-man> Heh, from a cockpit resource.
07:25 <z-man> the placement would be determined client side, the values server side.
07:25 <z-man> Of course, the cockpit would need to be adapted to new server features, but better just the cockpit than the game code.
07:26 <wrtlprnft> so you say, just make data sources that come from the server?
07:26 <wrtlprnft> and the server tells the client which sources it can provide
07:27 <z-man> Right.
07:27 <wrtlprnft> hmm. can you help me with the network stuff then? I have no clue at all about it
07:28 <wrtlprnft> i guess the client needs a way to request which ones it wants to get sent, and the server sends them at every sync
07:31 <z-man> I think I can help there, yes.
07:33 <z-man> An interesting problem would be player dependant stuff. It needs to be possible to attach the info elements to teams and players, so the client can pick the right ladder position indicator for its player.
07:33  * z-man will think of something.
07:40 -!- Self_Destructo [i=tribe@h237.172.40.162.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
07:40 -!- spidey [n=spidey@68-112-89-155.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
07:44 <wrtlprnft> well, the client requests what information it wants, right?
07:44 <wrtlprnft> Then it will just send the player id, the name of the callback as a string, and some ID thingy so the string doesn't have to be transferred again
07:45 <Luke-Jr> is the hiearchial, cascading, 3D configuration system assigned to someone? =p
07:45 <wrtlprnft> and the server memorizes a function pointer to the callback it's gonna used, the ID, the client ID, and the player
07:45  * wrtlprnft assigns it to Luke-Jr 
07:46 <wrtlprnft> :P
07:46 <Luke-Jr> crap :x
07:46 <Luke-Jr> I'd probably end up rewriting it, since I have no idea how the current one works
07:46  * wrtlprnft pushes it far away from wrtlprnft 
07:46 <wrtlprnft> Luke-Jr: OOP, right? Please no weird functions
07:47 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: probably, since the settings would apply to objects
07:48 <Luke-Jr> I guess the plan is more of "OO" rather than "hiearchial"
07:48 <wrtlprnft> what about storing tValues in settings?
07:48 <Luke-Jr> shrug, ask whoever ends up writing it =p
07:48 <wrtlprnft> O_o_�
07:48 <Luke-Jr> What is a tValue anyway?
07:49 <Luke-Jr> can it be more than just functions?
07:49 <Luke-Jr> eg, colours, strings, resources
07:49 <wrtlprnft> currently it can be an int, string, float or special type
07:49 <wrtlprnft> special types would be config items, callbacks, conditions, math et
07:49 <wrtlprnft> c
07:50 <wrtlprnft> all that exists already :)
07:50 <Luke-Jr> BTW, how would you like the idea of having MAP_FILE be internally a {author, category, name, version} struct/class, and assignable either as MAP_FILE.Author (etc) or MAP_FILE ?
07:50 <wrtlprnft> hmm. that should be doable
07:50 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: so it'd need support for resources and colours at least
07:51 <wrtlprnft> shouldn't be that hard to add colors
07:51 <Luke-Jr> nor resources
07:51 <wrtlprnft> resources... you mean the entire parsed thing or just the path/meta info?
07:51 <Luke-Jr> just need a bit of the planned enhancements to the resource system
07:51 <Luke-Jr> neither
07:51 <Luke-Jr> the tResource subclass
07:52 <Luke-Jr> which is parsed/loaded on demand
07:52 <Luke-Jr> (or in advance, if limitations require)
07:52 <Luke-Jr> but tValue doesn't need to know if it's loaded or not ;)
07:52 <Luke-Jr> nor does anything, really, since the loading is transparent
07:53 <wrtlprnft> so it would contain a pointer?
--- Log opened Thu Jun 01 16:26:24 2006
16:26 -!- wrtlprnft [n=wrtlprnf@S0106000f6687e817.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #armagetron
16:26 -!- Irssi: #armagetron: Total of 17 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 17 normal]
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16:27 -!- fr34k [n=54a199fa@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has joined #armagetron
16:27 <wrtlprnft> did i miss anything?
16:27 <wrtlprnft> darn provider
16:28 <MaZuffeR> n54 just told us he likes cucumber
16:28  * wrtlprnft likes gurken (cucumbers) too
16:28 <wrtlprnft> agurk it was, right?
16:29 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: they don't necessarily have to be
16:30 <wrtlprnft> the responsible tValue class is a template to accept any member of any object
16:30 <wrtlprnft> but you'd have to add them to cWidget::WithDataFunctions in a different way
16:30 <n54> yup wrtlprnft :)
16:30 <n54> and hello MaZuffeR :)
16:30 <Lucifer_arma> ahhh, so they just can't be regular functions?
16:31  * Lucifer_arma core dumps MaZuffeR for 1 points.
16:31 <MaZuffeR> hi
16:32 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: currently not
16:32 <wrtlprnft> they have to be a nonstatic member of some object
16:32  * n54 tries to remember hello in finnish but never manages
16:32 <Lucifer_arma> I think  Luke-Jr just won the award for most harebrained post ever: http://forums.armagetronad.net/viewtopic.php?p=52611#52611  <--- how about cockpit elements?
16:32 <wrtlprnft> but feel free to add another tValue::Callback that removes that constraint
16:33 <wrtlprnft> second, just going through posts
16:33 <wrtlprnft> no, no real clue for i18n
16:33  * Lucifer_arma also wants to il8n the announcer, if reasonable
16:34 <wrtlprnft> maybe we can add the possibility to use language strings everyone in the cockpit where it expects text
16:34 <n54> as in have him7her speak in tons of languages?
16:34  * Lucifer_arma notes that we could just do the code for it, but provide abstract noises in the default installation
16:34 <wrtlprnft> then add some things like rubber, brake etc
16:34 <MaZuffeR> hello is moi or hei in finnish
16:34 <wrtlprnft> the rest would remain untranslated
16:35 <Lucifer_arma> well, it's fairly obvious, imo, that we'll just do something like that.  There was talk of switching to gnu gettext, though, so we'd use what gettext wants.
16:35 -!- fr34k [n=54a199fa@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has quit ["CGI:IRC (EOF)"]
16:35 <Lucifer_arma> the real question, I think, has more to do with how to make it possible for other people to il8n their own resources with strings that don't ship with the game and ship their translations with the resource
16:36 <Lucifer_arma> so would we do, for example, something like <Files> <Translation language="de" file="douche.pot" /> ?
16:36 <n54> ah moi was the word I had forgotten
16:36 <wrtlprnft> just make a section in the cockpit where you can define your own language strings?
16:36 <n54> thank you :)
16:36 <wrtlprnft> <i18n>
16:36 <MaZuffeR> :)
16:36 <wrtlprnft> <string name="rubber">
16:37 <wrtlprnft> <translation lang="de" value="gummi" />
16:37 <wrtlprnft> <translation lang="en" value="rubber" />
16:37 <Lucifer_arma> that would require the cockpit file to be able to handle all sorts of encodings.  While utf-8 is supposed to satisfy us, I'd prefer not to have to deal with other encodings in the cockpit file itself
16:37 <wrtlprnft> <!-- ... -->
16:37 <wrtlprnft> </string>
16:37 <wrtlprnft> <!-- ... -->
16:37 <wrtlprnft> </i18n>
16:37 <wrtlprnft> the
16:37 <Lucifer_arma> wow, so gummi bear = rubber bear?
16:38 <wrtlprnft> then make an extra resource for that?
16:38 <wrtlprnft> gummib�r it is
16:38 <Lucifer_arma> does that make translations resources, then?
16:38 <wrtlprnft> or gummibaer
16:38 <wrtlprnft> or gummibar with two dots over the a
16:39 <wrtlprnft> I'd say the basic translations won't be resources
16:39 <wrtlprnft> but you can resources to add on those
16:39 <wrtlprnft> *use
16:39 <Lucifer_arma> but if translations are resources, then do we have to link to translations directly, or just use strings that are in them and the cockpit (and other resources) will do the right thing?
16:39 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: for some reason, thought you were talking about only maps
16:39 <Luke-Jr> go figure, I just woke up
16:40 <Lucifer_arma> also, I'm of a mind that thinks that whenever we take game data that ships with the game and turn it into a resource, then the actual data we ship should be converted to resources
16:40 <Lucifer_arma> Luke-Jr: go edit your post with something intelligent before anybody else notices
16:40 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: why does wrtl's thing require other encodings?
16:40 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: well, we would support to overlay any number of translations
16:43 <Lucifer_arma> well, I'm pretty sleepy and don't know if I'm making much sense in general, and z-man should be part of this conversation since he did a very thorough evaluation of translation systems awhile back
16:43 <Luke-Jr> <switch e="language"><case e="de">ist</case><case e="en" fallthru="default" /><default>is</default></switch>
16:44 <wrtlprnft> uh
16:44 <Luke-Jr> =p
16:44  * Lucifer_arma notes that there are over 1000 languages in use on the planet today
16:44 <wrtlprnft> e?
16:44 <Luke-Jr> expression?
16:44 <Lucifer_arma> #g e
16:44 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: e = 2.71828183
16:45 <wrtlprnft> #...
16:45 <Luke-Jr> #g pi
16:46  * nemostultae notes that XML is a terrible base to write a programming language in
16:46  * Luke-Jr notes it's been done
16:46 <n54> amen nemo
16:46 <wrtlprnft> nemostultae: tried xslt?
16:46 <wrtlprnft> Luke-Jr: what do you refer to in your ... post?
16:47 <Luke-Jr> XML is a terrible base for anything complex to be edited by humans only.
16:47 <Lucifer_arma> that means "insert somethiing smart here"
16:47 <Lucifer_arma> xml just plain sucks, why are we even using it?
16:48 <Luke-Jr> one of my side projects is a XML-based lanugage ;)
16:48 <Lucifer_arma> we should just make our own binary file formats
16:48 <Lucifer_arma> we'll use 12 bits per word to deal with endianness, so we have to do byte-flipping no matter where we're running
16:48 <nemostultae> You write programs in binary?
16:48 <Lucifer_arma> resources!  :)
16:49  * Lucifer_arma remembers typing programs in in oct back on the c-64
16:49 <Luke-Jr> pfft
16:49 <Luke-Jr> endianness isn't a problem
16:49 <Luke-Jr> there's only one logical way to do it after all
16:49 <Luke-Jr> Where's the logic in bits 9-16 followed by 1-8?
16:49 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, it should read from left->right just like a regular decimal number when you write it
16:50 <Lucifer_arma> 1020 is one thousand twenty, not two thousand ten
16:50 <Luke-Jr> or 201
16:50 <Lucifer_arma> right
16:51 <Luke-Jr> I could go with a binary format if it's extensible ;)
16:51 <Lucifer_arma> no way, we're gonna pack everything in as tight as possible to keep it as small as possible
16:51 <Luke-Jr> then we can change XML formats on the run and just recompile them for a new binary format
16:51 <Lucifer_arma> we'll write alib, which is armagetron compression, and use our own compressors
16:51 <Luke-Jr> kk
16:52 <Luke-Jr> if you insist
16:52 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: you don't see any other devs playing very often?
16:52 <Luke-Jr> just fix sound first
16:52 <Lucifer_arma> forget that, we'll just start at the kernel level.  I'm not a big fan of this monolithic thing sitting underneath me anyway
16:52 <wrtlprnft> I'm playing am hour or so a day on average, and joda is online quite often too :)
16:52 <Lucifer_arma> wrtlprnft: not really, no.  Of course, a prerequisite for me to see them playing often is for me to play often.  :)
16:52 <wrtlprnft> lol
16:53 <Luke-Jr> I play maybe once a month, outside of testing
16:53 <Lucifer_arma> nah, my point wsn't that they don't play, just that they don't encounter each other a whole helluva lot, and it goes in phases anyway.
16:53 -!- Nixda211 [n=59347840@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has joined #armagetron
16:53 <Lucifer_arma> I used to see nemo all the time, but now he's never around.
16:53 -!- Nixda211 [n=59347840@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has left #armagetron []
16:54 <Luke-Jr> wtf?
16:54 <Luke-Jr> /msg Nixda211 screw you
16:54 <nemostultae> nixda is the old server that housed all the people who crashed other servers, right?
16:54  * Lucifer_arma suspects Luke-Jr's sound problems are local, since everyone else that he's talked to that's built with the new sound stuff has reported success
16:55 <wrtlprnft> nemostultae: nixda kinda belongs ot joda...
16:55 <nemostultae> hmm, other server then
16:55 <Lucifer_arma> that's how I remember Nixda too, actually.  Except that I found out later that nixda just hosts the german community and is very noob friendly.
16:56 <Lucifer_arma> so it's probably just that it's noob friendly, and new punks tend to like to do stuff like that, and there's a pretty steady flow of new punks into and then out of the game.
16:56 <wrtlprnft> yeah
16:56 <wrtlprnft> and nixda is joda's webchat, the one i use for wrtl_web_broken
16:56 <wrtlprnft> #seen wrtl_web_broken
16:56 <armabot> wrtlprnft: wrtl_web_broken was last seen in #armagetron 1 day, 3 hours, 35 minutes, and 6 seconds ago: <wrtl_web_broken> anyways, I'll try renaming myself to phil once in a while, I'm sure it will work one day
16:57 <wrtlprnft> phil is still online
16:57 <Lucifer_arma> I /msg'ed that phil guy to see if he could come here for a second.  I think he's a bot, though.
16:57 <wrtlprnft> o_O
16:57 <Lucifer_arma> he's in lots of channels, he's here all the time?
16:58 <Lucifer_arma> that's got channel-logger written all over it.
16:58 <wrtlprnft> looks like it
16:59 <joda_bot> http://www.urbanoutfitters.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=22938&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=163&iSubCat=166&iProductID=22938
16:59 <joda_bot> From the tronsector website
16:59 <nemostultae> thats where all the donated money should go -- buying developers tron jackets
17:00 <wrtlprnft> lol
17:00  * wrtlprnft thinks we're taking money too seriously right now
17:00 <Lucifer_arma> can I get an Indiana Jones jacket instead?
17:01 <Lucifer_arma> I would look pretty stupid wearing a tron jacket and an indiana jones hat..
17:01 <Lucifer_arma> you know, stupider than I look just wearing the hat
17:01 <joda_bot> lol
17:01 <wrtlprnft> go find a tron hat!
17:01 <joda_bot> How about Ed Keefe's Tron Comic ?
17:01 <joda_bot> Is our Ed Ed Keefe ?
17:01 <joda_bot> I guess he might be
17:01  * Lucifer_arma thinks so
17:02 <joda_bot> http://www.tron-sector.com/ftp/Miscellaneous/TRON_RequestAccessToCluProgram_compressed.pdf
17:02 <Lucifer_arma> or our ed copied it, one of the two.  But ed linked a tron comic that he was making.
17:02 <wrtlprnft> you mean edd on the forums, right?
17:02 <Lucifer_arma> no, ed on the command line
17:02 -!- z-man-home [n=manuel@p50873C86.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
17:03 <wrtlprnft> the guy who makes all those nice maps and splash screens and cycle screens and whatever
17:03 <Lucifer_arma> you know, tron had the right solution to the whole line ending problem.  Instead of just saying CR or LF, or CRLF, they say "END OF LINE"
17:03 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, that ed
17:03 <nemostultae> ed keefe is the one who makes all the tron light-cycle models.
17:04 <Lucifer_arma> doesn't ed keefe look just like pee-wee herman?
17:04  * joda_bot praises Ed's work
17:05 <joda_bot> He seems to have a 3d model of a complete game grid including surroundings ;)
17:05 <joda_bot> wow lovely ;)
17:05 <Lucifer_arma> http://www.a1eddie.com/image1.htm
17:07 <Lucifer_arma> http://www.a1eddie.com/movie7.htm
17:08 <Lucifer_arma> http://www.a1eddie.com/movie2.htm  <--- very nice
17:08 <joda_bot> cool he put a advertisement at the end of the comic for armagetron advanced
17:08 <joda_bot> ;)
17:09 <joda_bot> You've seen the movie, read the book, now fight for the users on the game grid...
17:09 <joda_bot> We really need some better from of news aggregation
17:09 <Lucifer_arma> but....watch out for that wall!
17:10 <Lucifer_arma> I want instant chat resources.  So I can have like 3-5 packages of instant chats I like to use and pick the ones I want loaded at any point in time.
17:10 <Lucifer_arma> then I can be annoying in my choice of flavors!
17:13 <wrtlprnft> I want that font ed uses for his tron stuff, the one on the title screen :(
17:13 <wrtlprnft> that would be the perfect font for the menu
17:16 <Lucifer_arma> my house is being invaded by black spiders with bright yellow stripes
17:16 <Lucifer_arma> they look like tron spiders, to be honest
17:21 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: uh, the music display on the HUD looks really ugly right now
17:21 <wrtlprnft> it makes the left column far to wide
17:21 <wrtlprnft> I'd opt for some spot on the bottom left
17:21 <Lucifer_arma> hmmm.  I tested it in a separate widget and then tossed it in where it's at without testing, sorry.  :(
17:22 <wrtlprnft> np
17:22 <Lucifer_arma> also, if we have any path-trimming functions that'll give me just what's after the last slash, I'd like to know about them.  :)
17:22 -!- phil [n=phil@unaffiliated/phil] has joined #armagetron
17:22 -!- phil [n=phil@unaffiliated/phil] has left #armagetron []
17:22 <wrtlprnft> does it really matter? I thought
17:22 <wrtlprnft> !
17:22 <wrtlprnft> say something guy
17:23 <wrtlprnft> <continued> you wanted to replace it by the title anyways?
17:23 <nemostultae> basename, lucifer?
17:24 <Lucifer_arma> haha
17:24 <Lucifer_arma> hi phil, bye phil
17:24 <Lucifer_arma> #notes
17:24 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: I currently have notes waiting for a*, guru3, Luke-Jr, madmax*, p*, phil, and phil*.
17:24 <Lucifer_arma> hmm...  Got any other bright ideas?
17:24 <Lucifer_arma> um, nemostultae: we have a basename function?
17:25 <nemostultae> c does
17:25 <Lucifer_arma> wrtlprnft: yes, I do, but the title should come either from tags in the music file, or for aatracks from the xml file.  If failing the first for regular songs, then basename
17:26 <Lucifer_arma> the catch is, sdl_mixer and sdl_audio aren't capable of reading those tags, so we're basically looking at another dependency.  Arg.
17:27 <wrtlprnft> #man 3 basename
17:27 <armabot> wrtlprnft: Error: Couldn't get RSS feed.
17:27 <wrtlprnft> grr, useless thing
17:27 <wrtlprnft> but look at that manpage :)
17:27 <Lucifer_arma> NOTE: click here if you get an empty page.  <--- ?  that doesn't make any sense.
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17:34 <wrtlprnft> wow, cia is fast in getting committs
17:34 <Lucifer_arma> svn isn't down anymore, I guess.  Just committed a fix.
17:34 <Lucifer_arma> using bsename :)
17:35 <Lucifer_arma> on non-gnu platforms, need to check if string.h has a basename function, the docs I found were glibc-oriented
17:35 <Lucifer_arma> and the one in libgen.h wanted a char* instead of a const char*
17:35 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: use const_cast for that
17:36 <Lucifer_arma> libgen modifies the string, and the string itself is in a tString...
17:36 <wrtlprnft> basename(const_cast<char *> yourconstcharptr);
17:36 <Lucifer_arma> didn't feel safe to me.
17:36 <wrtlprnft> ah ok, makes sense then
17:36 <wrtlprnft> i thought it was just the wrong header and it didn't modify it
17:36 <Lucifer_arma> if it doesn't work out, we can make a wrapper that uses the glibc one from string.h on gnu platforms and then wraps the libgen.h one for other platforms
17:37 <Lucifer_arma> we = I in this case, more than likely :)
17:37 <wrtlprnft> :)
17:37 <joda_bot> wrtlprnft: http://www.dafont.com/font.php?file=tron ?
17:38 <wrtlprnft> no, not that one
17:38 <Lucifer_arma> is that the same one I stumbled across that misery posted when I didn't?  ;)
17:38 <joda_bot> wrtlprnft: ok it's not ed's font ;)
17:39 <Lucifer_arma> does gcc on windows use glibc, too?
17:39 -!- Self_Destructo [i=tribe@h237.172.40.162.ip.alltel.net] has joined #armagetron
17:39 <wrtlprnft> joda_bot: look at the @ sign in that font you linked
17:40 <wrtlprnft> that's the weirdest one I've ever seen
17:40 <joda_bot> yeah i know ;)
17:40 <joda_bot> wrtlprnft: I also got another font called xenotron but it doesn't match either
17:41 <wrtlprnft> maybe it's not even a real tron font...
17:41 <wrtlprnft> it would just be cool because of the title ;)
17:42 <n54> I think so Lucifer
17:42 <n54> I would be somewhat surprised if it didn't
17:43 <n54> but perhaps that code::blocks thingy does something rare although it used mingw didn't it? if so it should be glibc
17:43  * n54 presumes the code::block thingy uses gcc, otherwise what would be the point of it?
17:44 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: just use the library function. If it doesn't work it will be the windows support guy's job to fix it :P
17:44  * wrtlprnft glances at z-man-work 
17:44 <wrtlprnft> or just all linux as one of our dependencies
17:45 <wrtlprnft> *add
17:45  * n54 thinks it's a good idea to support multiple platforms
17:45 <joda_bot> http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/typodermic/nasalization/regular/
17:45 <joda_bot> ;)
17:45 <joda_bot> wrtlprnft: 
17:46 <joda_bot> wrtlprnft: used the splash to look it up
17:46 <wrtlprnft> n54: that was meant to be a joke :)
17:47 <wrtlprnft> joda_bot: thanks :)
17:47 <wrtlprnft> uh, but...
17:47 <wrtlprnft> nvm
17:54 <wrtlprnft> hmm
17:54 <wrtlprnft> viewing the license of that font...
17:54 <wrtlprnft> i can alter it, exept [a-z][A-Z][0-9]
17:55 <wrtlprnft> but can I reproduce it? Like put it onto Luke-Jr's repository?
17:55 <wrtlprnft> nvm
17:55 <nemostultae> It isn't a free font.
17:55 <wrtlprnft> - Installation and Use. You may install and use an unlimited number of copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. You may copy and distribute unlimited copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT as you receive them, in any medium, provided that you publish on each copy an appropriate copyright notice. Keep intact all the notices that refer to this License and give any other recipients of the fonts a copy of this License along with the fonts.
17:55 <wrtlprnft> it's not GPL compatible, no
17:56 <wrtlprnft> but stuff on Luke-Jr's repository doesn't have to be since it isn't distributed together with the game
17:56 <wrtlprnft> as long as i keep the license there and don't alter those chars I'm fine doing with it whatever i want
17:57 <wrtlprnft> it's more free (as in freedom) than most other free (as in free beer) fonts
17:59 <n54> oh ok wrtlprnft - sorry I see it way above my head when I look up ;)
18:00 <wrtlprnft> :) np
18:02 <wrtlprnft> heck i LOVE that font :)
18:03 <n54> if the above was it's copy notice it might be fruitful to contact the creator
18:04 <spidey> i love piza
18:04  * n54 loves warm bodies
18:04 <n54> *creepy* lol (I meant live ones of course)
18:05 <wrtlprnft> i probably will contact him/her
18:05 <wrtlprnft> that phrase bothers me:
18:05 <wrtlprnft> No payment is required for the use of this font unless it is included with software
18:05 <n54> oh
18:06 <wrtlprnft> strictly it's not gonna be included, but it will be selectable for automatic download
18:06 <n54> but the fact that armagetron is gpl and way cool might change that in our specific case ^^
18:06 <n54> and you can quote me on that :)
18:06 <n54> would be nice if we could include it
18:06 <wrtlprnft> well, the fact that it's GPL restricts us to include that font directly
18:06 <wrtlprnft> it doesn't allow modifications of alphanumeric chars
18:06 <n54> hmm yes
18:07 <wrtlprnft> that might still work out with GFDL
18:07 <n54> yup
18:07 <n54> or he might do some license magic, it's not code after all but graphics
18:07 <wrtlprnft> http://wrtlprnft.ath.cx/arma/?min=370
18:08 <n54> *loads link*
18:08 <n54> sweet
18:08 <wrtlprnft> i probably need to add |
18:09 <n54> what's with the alternating direction for w and m?
18:09 -!- nemostultae [n=nemostul@a1174.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit []
18:09  * n54 could make a font that's simpilar but not a copy
18:09 <wrtlprnft> one is a small w/m and one is the big W/M
18:09 <n54> similar*
18:09 <n54> ooh ok
18:10 <n54> nice touch
18:10 <wrtlprnft> n54: that font is almost latin-1 complete, so matching that would be a hell of a lot of work
18:11 <n54> I said could ^^ (there's a reason I'm not all that active) :)
18:11 <wrtlprnft> ah ok
18:11 <n54> latin-1 isn't that bad though
18:11 <n54> some day :)
18:11 <wrtlprnft> hmm, the ^ says "hypodermic" in it
18:12 <wrtlprnft> but from the licence i could just remove it or move it to some control character
18:12 <n54> *looks up hypodermic cause I'm slightly confused by your use of it*
18:12 <wrtlprnft> no clue what it means
18:12 <wrtlprnft> it just says that in the character
18:13 <n54> heard of a hypodermic needle? hypodermic means under the dermic (skin) layer
18:13 <wrtlprnft> i know
18:13 <wrtlprnft> but what does it mean in that context?
18:14 <n54> are we talking about this cahracter -> ^ ?
18:14 <wrtlprnft> z[\]hypodermic_`abc
18:14 <wrtlprnft> yes
18:14 <n54> huh I had no idea , where does it say hypodermic in it?
18:15 <wrtlprnft> the whole character just says that
18:15  * n54 wonders if wrtlprnft is brain-fucking him :|
18:16 <n54> where?
18:17 <wrtlprnft> or no
18:17 <wrtlprnft> it says typodermic O_O
18:17 <wrtlprnft> http://wrtlprnft.ath.cx/typodermic.png
18:17 <n54> `_'
18:19 <n54> fontname?
18:20 <wrtlprnft> Nasalization
18:20 <n54> leave my nose alone! ^^
18:20 <wrtlprnft> Nasalization == name of the font
18:20 <n54> well nazalisation is a real word too ;)
18:21 <n54> typodermic might be too, but I don't really think so
18:21 <n54> "font that goes below the skin/surface"
18:21  * n54 is edugessing
18:22 <n54> but it shouldn't really apply to ^any which way imo :)
18:22 <wrtlprnft> no, it's just the website it originally came from :P
18:22 <n54> however a below baseline traingular spacing mark could be "typodermic" I guess
18:23 <n54> ah ok
18:23 <wrtlprnft> http://www.typodermic.com/
18:23 <n54> so you weren't actually talking about ^itself were you?
18:23 <wrtlprnft> http://www.typodermic.com/14.html
18:23 <wrtlprnft> no, but I can't use a font in arma that displays that at a random character
18:24 <n54> nice pun
18:24 <n54> displays what at a random character?
18:24 <n54> as?
18:24 <n54> even so...
18:24 <wrtlprnft> it displays ""
18:24 <wrtlprnft> it displays "^" as "typodermic"
18:24 <joda_bot> wrtlprnft: anythings I should pay attention to when adding a movie pack
18:24 <n54> ^is not random, unused characters should use a square
18:25 <joda_bot> btw. I uploaded the download button stuff to www.armagetron.nixda.net
18:25 <n54> depending
18:25 <joda_bot> wrtlprnft: to the wiki ... should I first post it on the forums ?
18:25  * n54 really doesn't understand what wrtlprnft is saying, hopefully not too important ^^
18:26 <wrtlprnft> post it to the forums i guess
18:26 <wrtlprnft> ask people what they thing
18:26 <wrtlprnft> *think
18:26 <wrtlprnft> is there any reason not to have a bubble without JS?
18:27 <n54> hmm are you saying typodermic doesn't contain the glypg/character ^ wrtlprnft?
18:27 <wrtlprnft> yes, exactly
18:27 <n54> yay!
18:27 <wrtlprnft> or, it contains it, but it contains just the word "typodermic"
18:27 <n54> I get you now ^^
18:28 <wrtlprnft> :)
18:28  * n54 feels absurdly proud :D
18:28 <wrtlprnft> lol
18:28 <n54> it's a marketing gimmic from the font creators :)
18:29 <wrtlprnft> exactly
18:29 <n54> :)
18:29 <wrtlprnft> but I am free to delete it or move it somewhere else
18:29 <n54> :)
18:29 <wrtlprnft> I'll just move it to some random control char
18:30 <wrtlprnft> now, by what do i replace it?
18:31 <wrtlprnft> do you want it round or edgy?
18:31 <n54> pointy bit should be round if you get what I mean
18:31 <n54> but the stroke ends should be pointy as is the case with the other glyphs
18:32 <n54> imo of course :)
18:32 <n54> or rather; squared off
18:32 <n54> stroke ends that is
18:32 <joda_bot> wrtlprnft: the button can be done  php no problem
18:33 <wrtlprnft> joda_bot: doesn't even have to be PHP
18:33 <n54> compare to an inverted v if neccessry
18:33 <wrtlprnft> the button could just contain all three links
18:33  * wrtlprnft will just take the bottom of a v and scale and turn it
18:34 <n54> :)
18:34 <n54> careful with scaling though as it should probably have the same thickness
18:34 <n54> same line*
18:34 <n54> better crop etc.
18:34 <wrtlprnft> just scale it down a bit, but still cut it off
18:35 <n54> are you using fontforge wrtlprnft?
18:35 <wrtlprnft> yes
18:35 <n54> ok just curious
18:35 <n54> :)
18:35 <wrtlprnft> the ` is way thinner than normal lines as well
18:35 <n54> oh then it's ok
18:37 <wrtlprnft> hmm
18:38 <wrtlprnft> ends horizontal or diagonal?
18:38 -!- mkzelda [n=mkzelda@cpe-071-070-204-248.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #armagetron
18:38 <n54> I would say horizontal but well you might have to try and see if it feels right, might even end up with angled ends
18:39 <n54> horisontal can seem wrong on that one especially if it has a wide angled "point"
18:39 <wrtlprnft> http://wrtlprnft.ath.cx/typodermic1.png
18:39 <wrtlprnft> that's how it looks right now
18:39 <n54> yeah that looks good
18:40 <wrtlprnft> :)
18:40 <n54> :)
18:40 <wrtlprnft> then, on to ~...
18:40 <n54> tilde :)
18:40  * n54 wonders if that could be a girls name somewhere
18:41 <n54> tilde end ellipsis ( ~and ... )
18:41 <spidey> #ping
18:41 <armabot> pong
18:41 <n54> and*
18:41 <wrtlprnft> #g 776-724
18:41 <armabot> wrtlprnft: 776 - 724 = 52
18:41  * n54 should have written it as this of course; tiled ampersand ellipsis ( ~& ... )
18:41 <wrtlprnft> so the line must be 52 units wide :)
18:42 <n54> tilde*
18:42 <n54> ok :)
18:42 <n54> <-- hypertension *treis to calm down*
18:44 -!- Vanhayes [n=Vanhayes@stjhnbsu84w-156034184214.nb.aliant.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
18:45 <wrtlprnft> stupid thing...
18:45 <wrtlprnft> why must this font use cubic splines?
18:47  * wrtlprnft feels stupid
18:47 <wrtlprnft> all those chars with a tilde over them are just sitting there!
18:47 <n54> because it's easy?
18:47  * wrtlprnft goes for copy and paste :D
18:47 <n54> :)
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18:51 <wrtlprnft> http://wrtlprnft.ath.cx/typodermic2.png
18:51 <wrtlprnft> :)
18:51 <wrtlprnft> that completes ASCII
18:52 <n54> hmm well I would actually consider change that tilde, although it might be hard
18:52 <n54> more like a "pushed-over" s if you get what I mean
18:52 <wrtlprnft> ~
18:53 <wrtlprnft> you mean with the ends being horizontal?
18:53 <n54> but there might be other pre-existing characters that also break what seems the norm for the font so....
18:53 <n54> yup
18:53 <wrtlprnft> hmm, later, once we actually get font resources :)
18:53 <n54> S <-- just like this but rotated 90 degrees ccw and flipped horisontally
18:53 <n54> ok :)
18:54 <wrtlprnft> but i think the ends shouldn't go inwards...
18:55 <n54> yes, sorry, I probably use arial or something here
18:55 <wrtlprnft> let's first write this guy a friendly mail and just ask if what i plan to do is ok with him and his license :)
18:55 <n54> should definetly not go invards :)
18:55 <n54> :)
18:55 <n54> and if not you've still got great fontforge practice :)
18:56 <wrtlprnft> uh, not that much
18:56 <wrtlprnft> just ~200 chars
18:57 <n54> :)
19:01 <joda_bot> wrtlprnft: http://forums.armagetronad.net/viewforum.php?f=47
19:02 <n54> ??
19:02 <n54> ooh cool
19:02 <n54> smart reordering
19:05 <wrtlprnft> uh, twice?
19:05 <wrtlprnft> but i like it :)
19:13 <wrtlprnft> http://pastebin.ca/60825
19:13 <wrtlprnft> someone wanna proofread that?
19:13 <Lucifer_arma> I don't know about other countries, but for the US anyway, font files are copywrite material, but fonts themselves are not
19:13 <wrtlprnft> well, we'd have it as a truetype font that gets used for rendering
19:13 <Lucifer_arma> so if you remake the file yourself as an "interpretation" of his font, you're fine.  If you copy his font file without his permission, sorry.
19:14 <n54> hmm it's the same as for games? *doesn't know*
19:14 <wrtlprnft> I won't remake the whole thing
19:14  * Lucifer_arma doesn't know either
19:14 <wrtlprnft> but read the license, it *should* be free enought for use as an external resource
19:15 <Lucifer_arma> because if you play someone else's song, you owe a royalty.  If you record it, you owe a royalty, but your recording gets your copywrite
19:15 -!- Lucifer_arma is now known as LuciEatsPeople
19:16 <n54> I know games aren't copyrighteable under us law (only game artwork and possibly the code but not the _game_ itself)
19:16 <wrtlprnft> you mean the concept?
19:16 <n54> but I would have thought that font's go under the category art
19:16 <wrtlprnft> so, any feedback?
19:16 <n54> yup, even rules
19:16 <wrtlprnft> if not I'll send it
19:16 -!- spidey [n=spidey@68-112-89-155.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
19:16 <n54> send it and hear him/her/them out :)
19:17 <n54> fonts*
19:17 <wrtlprnft> http://www.typodermic.com/about.html
19:17 <wrtlprnft> it's a him
19:17 <n54> ok
19:18 <wrtlprnft> btw the name seems to come from NASA
19:19 <LuciEatsPeople> got a link for the license?
19:19 <n54> it's a pun on both nasa and nasal anda nasalization
19:19 <n54> and*
19:19 <n54> (french is an example of a language with lots of nasalization)
19:20 <wrtlprnft> http://wrtlprnft.ath.cx/license.html
19:21 <n54> btw I've had a look at amazons honor system Lucifer, 2.9% might be a bit steep? *not sure*
19:21 <wrtlprnft> LuciEatsPeople: LuciEatsPeople 
19:22 <LuciEatsPeople> a) Do not alter in any way alphanumeric characters (A-Z, a-z, 1-9) contained in the font.  <--- this makes it not gpl-compatible, imo
19:22 <wrtlprnft> LuciEatsPeople: i know
19:22 <LuciEatsPeople> n54: I have a highlighter that looks for luci now :)
19:22 <wrtlprnft> but there's no need for it to be GPL if it just sits on Luke-Jr's repository, right?
19:23 <LuciEatsPeople> right.  You can distribute non-gpl stuff alongside gpl stuff.
19:23 <wrtlprnft> but not in the same package
19:23 <LuciEatsPeople> nobody's going to kill us if we included it in the game, I don't think.  The only technical point that I can think of is that it couldn't be used by default.
19:23 <LuciEatsPeople> yeah, maybe not in the same package, but our installer could call the other package's installer if its present
19:24 <wrtlprnft> the question is, does it conflict with the inclusion in software thing?
19:24 <n54> ah ok Luci :)
19:24 <LuciEatsPeople> but personally I'd rather not include it with the game anyway.  I'd like people that get the game to feel free to modify and use any/all of it so long as they honor the GPL.
19:24 <LuciEatsPeople> otoh, if you build your own, it's yours.  :)
19:24 <wrtlprnft> this isn't about direct inclusion
19:25 <n54> I actually do agree with Luci, but lets hear what the creator says, perhaps he digs gpl
19:25 <wrtlprnft> it's about putting it on the repository and making it an option
19:25 <LuciEatsPeople> well, stick it on Luke-Jr's resource repository, and we can stick it on CDs too, afaic.
19:25 <LuciEatsPeople> I dont' object to a CD that says "The core armagetronad package is GPL, but the other stuff may not be yadayada"
19:25 <n54> yup
19:25 <wrtlprnft> like, once we have a user interface to select things from the repository this font could be an options
19:26 <wrtlprnft> -s
19:26 <LuciEatsPeople> and if he says we can have it under the GPL, then fine, include it with the game.  :)
19:26 <wrtlprnft> that UI would get the list from the server, so there is no reference in the actual package
19:26 <LuciEatsPeople> I don't think we could put it on sourceforge without his permission to use it under an open source license
19:26 <n54> absolutely not
19:27 <LuciEatsPeople> right, we're fine for pretty much everything that matters--so long as you don't want to include it with the game.
19:27 <n54> would conflict on sf's part
19:27  * wrtlprnft is still not talking about GPL
19:27 <LuciEatsPeople> His license is quite generous for a font-maker's.  :)
19:27 <wrtlprnft> LuciEatsPeople: that's exactly what i mean
19:27 <wrtlprnft> you can edit most of it, and you can copy it as you like
19:28 <wrtlprnft> that thing almost qualifies for GFDL IMHO
19:28 <n54> it's a very normal license for pr releases actually
19:28 <wrtlprnft> and GFDL should be sf- compatible
19:28 <LuciEatsPeople> right, so we're fine for pretty much everything, and I don't think we have to worry terribly about fine points, just as long as we remember not to include it with the game or put it on sf's repository
19:28 <n54> almost but not quite ;)
19:28 <wrtlprnft> it's the application thing that's annoying about it
19:28 <LuciEatsPeople> n54: the free font licenses I've seen have been very restrictive
19:29 <wrtlprnft> that breaks gfdl compatibility
19:29 <n54> yeah, that might get into ftgl trouble
19:29 <n54> + too
19:29 <wrtlprnft> n54: ftgl trouble?
19:29 <n54> well I would consider ftgl a program...
19:29 <wrtlprnft> it won't be included
19:29 <n54> so we'aere into hairsplitting territory there
19:30 <LuciEatsPeople> ?  ftgl is reading  it.  Just like you can listen to proprietary closed source music in your media player
19:30 <wrtlprnft> not all of it, thanks to DRM bs
19:30 <n54> yup but isn't it also creating?
19:30 <LuciEatsPeople> DRM is incompatible with copywrite, but really, I need to get back to dinner
19:30 <wrtlprnft> n54: it's converting
19:30 <wrtlprnft> the license allows that
19:30 <n54> ok
19:31 <n54> hehe enjoy dinner Luci :)
19:31 <wrtlprnft> hf LuciEatsPeople 
19:31  * wrtlprnft didn't buy any music in years
19:32 <n54> I "bought" a free cd download on-drm'ed ogg album, oh and later on I bought a used cd of FFF (evil sony)
19:32  * n54 hasn't actually played that cd yet
19:32 <n54> non-drm'ed*
19:33 <n54> that's about all for a few years iirc ^^
19:33 -!- spidey [n=spidey@68-112-89-155.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #armagetron
19:34 <wrtlprnft> supper
19:34 -!- You're now known as WrtlEatsLuci
19:35 <n54> how homoerotic of you ^^ j/k
19:53 -!- You're now known as wrtlprnft
19:54 <wrtlprnft> hmm, he tasted nice! *burp*
19:55 <n54> lol
19:55 <n54> another scary german cannibal ^^
19:56 <n54> ok that was a tasteless joke (no pun intended!)
19:56  * n54 apologizes
19:57 <joda_bot> I guess, they really will call it scary if he was able to eat lucifer in texas from canada
19:57 <n54> good point
19:57 <n54> could make a great comic book storyline
19:57 <n54> or horror movie
19:58 <n54> a tele-ghoul :S
19:58 <wrtlprnft> http://electricpotential.net/graphicblog/
19:58 <wrtlprnft> nice new pictures :)
19:58 <n54> :)
19:58 <joda_bot> n54: I bet the MCP fetched lucifer onto the grid and wrtlprnft consumed him there ;)
19:58 <n54> :)
20:00 <wrtlprnft> although some of them are questionabke
20:00 <wrtlprnft> *questionable
20:00 <n54> yup, but it _is_ a blog ^^
20:01 <wrtlprnft> http://electricpotential.net/graphicblog/images/ibolympics.png
20:01 <wrtlprnft> i like that one :)
20:01 <n54> :)
20:02  * wrtlprnft is on the grid, if anyone needs him
20:04 <joda_bot> gn8
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20:58 <spidey> wow
20:58 <spidey>  thought it was 9am :/
20:59 <spidey> i really need to get my sleep patterns normal,heh
20:59 <n54> :)
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21:13 <spidey> that was fun
21:13 <wrtlprnft> ?
21:14 <spidey> dunno lol
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21:27 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: LuciEatsPeople: there is no "Luke-Jr's repository"-- it's just "the [official] resource repository"
21:32 -!- [NP]Tangent [n=hyperdev@] has joined #armagetron
21:34 -!- LuciEatsPeople is now known as Lucifer_arma
21:35 <Lucifer_arma> Luke-Jr: I know what it is, I don't need to be corrected.
21:35 <spidey> luuci
21:35 <Lucifer_arma> spiiiideeeeeeeey
21:37 <spidey> come to cvs :p
21:39 <spidey> i got 18 points ...team goold has 28
21:39 <spidey> and i'm on gold :/
21:40 <wrtlprnft> Luke-Jr: yes, but you host it
21:40 <wrtlprnft> and i have never heard anyone but you calling it official ;)
21:50 <Lucifer_arma> I wen t there, spidey
21:50 <Lucifer_arma> heh
21:51  * Lucifer_arma always chuckles when he uses a newly-built arma in a build directory because it uses his username on his laptop, which isn't Lucifer
21:51 <n54> btw I looked over the gforge main page, not sure what to make of it really
21:51 <Lucifer_arma> it's Sourceforge CVS right before 3.0 forked and under development for awhile after that
21:52 <Lucifer_arma> the company sells consulting services.  My main client hired them to setup a gForge installation for them awhile back.
21:52 <n54> ok, obsd is actually working on a cvs fork a well but I'm not familiar with it, some fundamental changes though afaik
21:52 <Lucifer_arma> <-- got to hack on it, it was fun :)
21:52 <n54> ok :)
21:52 <Lucifer_arma> anyway, the guy that founded gForge is the same guy that wrote most of the sourceforge software, and when VALinux decided to close up the source, he quit and forked and founded his company
21:53 <n54> smart guy
21:53 <n54> I have lots of happy feelings for sf as of old but always been slightly sceptical to VALinux
21:53 <Lucifer_arma> yeah.  :)  GNU also forked it into their Savane project which powers Savannah.  I think there's at least one more fork floating around.
21:54 <n54> ok so we're up to three big ones so far gforge, savannah, opencvs :)
21:54 <Lucifer_arma> Savane and gForge worked independently of one another and unknowningly.
21:54 <Lucifer_arma> Hmm, wait, I thought you said obsd had a fork of cvs?  CVS the program?
21:55 <n54> yup OpenCVS iirc
21:55  * n54 looks it up
21:56 -!- Self_Destructo [i=tribe@h237.172.40.162.ip.alltel.net] has joined #armagetron
21:56 <n54> http://www.opencvs.org/
21:56 <Lucifer_arma> ahhh, I'm talking about the Sourceforge software.  CVS in that sentence meant "The code that was in cvs right before the 3.0 release of Sourceforge"
21:56 <Lucifer_arma> the service sourceforge.net is also available as a product, if you have enough money, that you can use for your own projects
21:56 <Lucifer_arma> that's what gForge is a fork of.
21:57 <n54> oh yeah sorry, I did get you but sort of didn't think straight
21:57 <Lucifer_arma> That's why gForge kinda looks like sourceforge.  :)
21:57 <n54> :)
21:58 <Lucifer_arma> code's not compatible with sourceforge's anymore, I'm sure.  And gForge and Savane worked without knowledge of each other until it was too late to combine efforts.
21:58 <n54> yup I did make the connection to the pay-for sf
21:58 <n54> yeah probably
21:58 <Lucifer_arma> Apparently they talked about combining efforts anyway and trashing one of the projects, but then figured they may as well just continue and compete
21:59 <Lucifer_arma> recent versions of gForge and gForge's commercial interest might have something to do with pushing sourceforge development.  I sure hope so.  :)
21:59 <n54> if I were to set up cvs I would probably choose OpenCVS anyway
21:59 <n54> well it seems to me sf has sucked lately, even though I have very little to do with sf these days
22:00 <n54> or are you talking purely pay-for?
22:01 <Lucifer_arma> development of the software.  Surely you've noticed sourceforge has had several updates recently?  Reporting, project layout....
22:01 <spidey> hmm
22:01 <n54> yeah but the way they do it...
22:01 <n54> reporting started a few years ago btw iirc
22:02 -!- Self_Destructo is now known as SD|away
22:02 <SD|away> good night ;)
22:02 <n54> cya :)
22:02 <n54> same with donations
22:05 <spidey> dude
22:05 <spidey> what exactly is prediction
22:06 <n54> more exactly than hinting at the area where a bike might actually be?
22:06 <wrtlprnft> basically drawing cycles on the tip of the lagometer instead of the centre
22:06 <spidey> everyone that uses it complains about lag and says it's harder to play,i set it to 1 and i got alot better
22:07 <spidey> i can atleast keep up with low pingers in a open grid fight
22:07 <n54> well there's no reason it should be the same for everyone, if it works for you it works for you :)
22:07 <wrtlprnft> prdiction on or off shouldn't matter that much, technically, as long as you understand and use the lagometer
22:07 <Lucifer_arma> there were changes in reporting, n54
22:07 <Lucifer_arma> wrtlprnft:  problem.  :)
22:08 <wrtlprnft> there might be a psychological side that you can interpret the predicted cycle better than the lagometer
22:08 <spidey> swell,when i have it on,say zop he has a low ping,where i see him on my screen,he is there so if i try to kill him i don't hit his wall behind him
22:08 <Lucifer_arma> camera="^in" viewport="top"  <--- viewport overrides the camera setting here
22:08 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: ?
22:08 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: yes, that's intended
22:08 <wrtlprnft> spidey: if it's off you can always use the tip of the lagometer
22:08 <Lucifer_arma> in multi-player, it makes sense to do that.
22:09 <Lucifer_arma> hmmm.......
22:09 <spidey> don't matter
22:09 <spidey> he's not where he seems when it's off,i have to guess  :p
22:09 <Lucifer_arma> ok, that's not the problem, or I'm smoking something I shouldn't be.  The problem is that now I've got two maps on incam mode when I only want one.
22:09 <wrtlprnft> spidey: that's true
22:09 <wrtlprnft> spidey: you know what the lagometer (those small arrows) is for?
22:09 <Lucifer_arma> you have to play about half a second in the future, that's why I say "use the force"  :)
22:10 <spidey> just the bigger they are the more lag i have
22:10 <Lucifer_arma> what you see only tells you what was going on half a second ago, it says nothing about *now*
22:10 <wrtlprnft> spidey: the cycle can be anywhere within the arrow
22:10 <wrtlprnft> that's way more info than the prediction thing alone can give you
22:10 <spidey> yea
22:10 <spidey> i knew that
22:10 <wrtlprnft> if you have prediction on and lagometer off you lose
22:11 <Lucifer_arma> problem I have with prediction is that the cycles move too much when they turn
22:11 <spidey> yes
22:11 <spidey> it took me a minute to figure out
22:11 <n54> the more I think about it the more I think lag is what makes the game so exiting and fun
22:11 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: if you don't want that put the map in the player viewport...
22:11 <n54> steady lag that is of course
22:11 <Lucifer_arma> this is for the stock cockpit I'm doing this
22:12 <Lucifer_arma> my layout for incam (with captions and a rubber gauge), the regular stuff for other cam modes
22:12 <wrtlprnft> what do you do in multiplayer mode with one player in incam and one in smartcam?
22:12 <Lucifer_arma> so I can put it the other map in the player viewport, but that's going to result in 4 maps with 4 players.
22:12 <Lucifer_arma> The player in incam should see the map in his incam, it's part of the setup.  The player in smartcam should have his own map.
22:13 <spidey> well,i tried prediction on mbc(i have a 60-80 ping) and i suck with it on and win with it off,i use it on cvs ( 179-200+) i got better,all i need to know to use it :p
22:13 <wrtlprnft> :P
22:13 <Lucifer_arma> I got wasted every round when I had prediction on
22:13 <spidey> i did to
22:13 <spidey> when i first used it
22:13 <spidey> now when i turn it off i die
22:13 <wrtlprnft> just again, people who don't use the lagometer don't use their full potential
22:14 <Lucifer_arma> lemme give you a screenshot, wrtlprnft, so it'll make more sense
22:14  * Lucifer_arma doesn't use the lagometer
22:14 <Lucifer_arma> well, ummm, that's not accurate
22:14  * n54 never got used to it either
22:14 <Lucifer_arma> I don't *trust* the lagometer with what it's trying to tell me, but I use it to some extent
22:14 <wrtlprnft> you can't exactly trust the borders
22:14 <spidey> although i did lose a advantage when i started using it
22:14 <wrtlprnft> but it gives you about the area
22:15 <spidey> with it off i could cut through about ----- of the persons end of tail on the screen
22:15 <wrtlprnft> and there's still human reaction time, rubber and realworld lag
22:15 <spidey> with it on it kills me if i try
22:15 <Lucifer_arma> http://www.davefancella.com/screenshot_8.png
22:15 <spidey> i only lag when it rains,uploading,or router goes gay
22:15 <wrtlprnft> it = prediction or it = lagometer?
22:16 <spidey> downloading never really affacts me
22:16 <spidey> it = prediction
22:16 <spidey> god lucifer
22:16 <spidey> how do you pay like that?
22:17 <spidey> play*
22:17 <spidey> lol
22:17 <Lucifer_arma> wrtlprnft: so the idea is that by placing the map where I put it, you can see it in incam and actually use it
22:17  * Lucifer_arma sees that he needs to remove one of the clocks :)
22:17 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: if you want to get something sensible out of it put the map into the player viewport...
22:17 <wrtlprnft> it's never gonna make sense in multiplayer anyways
22:18 <Lucifer_arma> ok
22:18 <wrtlprnft> btw GLTron has multiple maps too
22:18 <wrtlprnft> it makes sense, too
22:19 <wrtlprnft> if you're in the top viewport there's no view you'll be able to look into the bottom right corner
22:19 <wrtlprnft> s/view/way
22:20 <wrtlprnft> spidey: if you wonder how Lucifer_arma can play like that you
22:20 <Lucifer_arma> now I just need the map to change so that it always centers my cycle's mark, zooms in so that it shows a larger area around my actual cycle,
22:20 <wrtlprnft> 've never seen my cockpit :P
22:20 <Lucifer_arma> and keep the thing pointed up.  :)  So my cycle dot should be in the middle pointing up.
22:20 <wrtlprnft> that should ideally be settings- based
22:21 <wrtlprnft> we already have cockpit keys, you could use those for zooming
22:21 <Lucifer_arma> spidey: I use smartcam, but that's my cockpit there.  I want to make it the default incam for 0.3.  It's both part of showing off the cockpit and also an attempt to make incam more playable
22:21 <Lucifer_arma> I want it to stay zoomed in to a set rate.  I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have zoom control on the map, though.
22:22 <wrtlprnft> hmm, maybe make the zoom rate a tValue param?
22:22 <wrtlprnft> so you could set it to a facor of current_speed or max_speed
22:22 <wrtlprnft> or fastest_speed
22:23 <wrtlprnft> + keys to choose a factor
22:26 <Lucifer_arma> well, I'm thinking HUD like a hud in a fighter jet
22:27 <Lucifer_arma> and the map is supposed to be something resembling radar, then, which doesn't strike me as something you'd have zooming
22:27 <Lucifer_arma> I don't object to having another map placed somewhere as a tactical display, but the two really need to look a lot more different
22:28 <Lucifer_arma> aha, I think I've got it :)
22:28 <Lucifer_arma> two maps, one that's exactly what you have there, and one that's the zoomed in view
22:28 <n54> so the armahud support "split" hud i.e. cockpit "background" and a hud that follows head movemnt?
22:28 <Lucifer_arma> and a toggle to switch maps
22:28 <n54> supports* (getting early here)
22:28 <Lucifer_arma> hud won't follow head movement without VR goggles :)
22:29 <n54> I was thinking glance keys ;)
22:29 <Lucifer_arma> mmmm, wrtlprnft ?  This sounds promising :)
22:29  * n54 tried to mention it before here but well it probably wasn't the right time then :)
22:30 <Lucifer_arma> was it before wrtlprnft rewrote the hud?
22:30 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: give the map some config options and you're set :)
22:30 <n54> might have been just before or during
22:30 <Lucifer_arma> :)  I take it the zooming and orientation have yet to be coded?  When I last suggested it (fairly recently) you said as much...
22:30 <wrtlprnft> The HUD map/radar should turn with the camera, if anything
22:31 <wrtlprnft> sure they have to
22:31 <n54> yup, the deal would be to make the cockpit not do the same with cockpit view
22:32 <wrtlprnft> A start would be to make the map always be turned so the direction in which you started is upwards
22:32 <wrtlprnft> it's confusing for def that sometimes your zone is at the top and sometimes at the bottom
22:33 <spidey> mmmm waffles and suasage at 10:30pm tastes so much better
22:33 <spidey> :>
22:33 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: turning shouldn't be hard at all, zooming is more complicated
22:33 <n54> that's an eccentric combo isn't it? waffles and sausage?
22:33 <wrtlprnft> since for zooming you
22:33 <wrtlprnft> 'll probably have to cut the map off
22:34  * wrtlprnft should stop confusing his shift key with his return key
22:34  * n54 wonders if spidey wraps the waffle around the sausage
22:34 <spidey> [
22:34 <n54> *just curious, not judgemental'
22:38 <wrtlprnft> #night
22:38 <armabot> Good night wrtlprnft!
22:38 <n54> cya :)
22:39 <spidey> anyway
22:39 <spidey> no n54 i don't :p
22:39 <spidey> we get these maple covered sausages
22:39 <n54> maple syrup+
22:39 <n54> ?
22:39 <spidey> yea
22:46 <Lucifer_arma> sausage and waffles are a good combination
22:46 <Lucifer_arma> damn europeans
22:46  * Lucifer_arma mutters something about European breakfasts
22:46 <n54> american waffles must be something different than waffles around here
22:46 <spidey> ?
22:47 <spidey> waffles and pancakes
22:49 <Lucifer_arma> <spidey> mmmm waffles and suasage at 10:30pm tastes so much better
22:50 <Lucifer_arma> let's see, waffles.  You take basically pancake batter and stick it in a waffle iron, right?
22:50 <spidey> yea...
22:50 <spidey> yes
22:50 <spidey> basically 2 sided frying pan :p
22:50 <n54> ok that explains it to me as long as you're talking about american style pancakes :)
22:50 <Lucifer_arma> we have generic waffle irons, and then there are belgian waffle irons available.  The generic standard american waffles are square,
22:51 <Lucifer_arma> belgian waffle makers are round.  I have no idea if belgian waffle makers sold here actually resemble what belgians really eat.
22:51 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, american style pancakes.  milk, flour, butter, basically.
22:51 <n54> not sure about that, here in norway they're round and soft (four heart-shaped segments with typical waffle squares inside)
22:52 <n54> american style pancakes are very thick and heavy compared to most european ones
22:52 <Lucifer_arma> people like 'em in varying degrees of hardness.  :)  I like some crusty with a soft inside, myself
22:52 <n54> but sure yummy ;)
22:52 <Lucifer_arma> Roger that!
22:53 <n54> but european ones are too :) ( and in hungary they serve them with chocolate or icecream, truly yummy lol) :D
22:53 <spidey> icecream on waffles?
22:53 <n54> no, on thin european pancakes
22:53 <spidey> my grandma said they used to do that in the old days here
22:53 <n54> not heavy at all
22:54 <n54> ok
22:54 <n54> actually on norwegian style waffles icecream could do well although strawberry jam or goat cheese or ordinary hard yellow cheese is most usual
22:55 <n54> or sliced sausage or anything you like really:)
22:55 <spidey> :)
22:55 <n54> :)
22:56 <Lucifer_arma> you guys do maple syrup much?  I've always been under the impression that's a uniquely american thing, or at least originated that way.
22:57 <spidey> i love maple syrup on suasage xD
22:57 <spidey> and biscuits
22:57 <n54> yeah it's pretty much unique to northern america afaik, I'e eaten it at a denny's (or danny's? forgot which is the right name for the chain) in singapore
22:57 <n54> :)
22:58 <spidey> should try IHOP
22:58 <spidey> :p
22:58 <spidey> 1 plate
22:58 <spidey> isn't small,trust me
22:58 <n54> no idea what ihop is :)
22:58 <spidey> innernational house of pancakes :p
22:59 <Lucifer_arma> it's where pretentious people eat breakfast ;)
22:59 <n54> heh :)
22:59 <spidey> i ate there once
22:59 <n54> but is it dennys or dannys?
22:59 <spidey> i was on the truck with my uncle,they server huge plates :/
22:59 <spidey> dennys
22:59 <spidey> i think
22:59 <spidey> luci?
22:59 <n54> thanks :)
23:00 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, the sucky place
23:00 <spidey> lmao
23:00 <Lucifer_arma> actually, when we lived in Seattle there was a Denny's nearby that was actually good.  I was shocked.
23:00 <n54> wasn
23:00 <n54> wasn't anything wrong with the one in singapore
23:00 <Lucifer_arma> now I wonder if they were just good in comparison to what was otherwise available.  :(
23:00 <spidey> i dunno i haven't been out to eat eccept once,my uncle and cousins went to a chinese restuarant
23:00 <spidey> i ate mcdonalds in there....
23:00 <spidey> :/
23:01 <Lucifer_arma> I don't know that I'd eat chinese food in Tennessee, heh
23:01 <spidey> i didn't
23:01 <spidey> i ate mcdonalds at the place though :p
23:01 <Lucifer_arma> I try not to eat it in Texas, but my in-laws love PF Chang's for some reason.  Chinese food for white people is all that is.  Sucks.
23:01 <spidey> when i was in texas
23:01 <spidey> there was this place that has fucking huge hamburgers
23:02 <Lucifer_arma> Dan's?  :)
23:02 <spidey> starts with a W i think
23:02 <Lucifer_arma> Whataburger?
23:02 <spidey> blue building?
23:02 <spidey> yes that's it
23:02 <Lucifer_arma> no, Whataburger has orange stripes
23:02 <spidey> oh
23:02 <Lucifer_arma> man, Whataburger is The Suck.
23:02 <spidey> i loved it
23:02 <Lucifer_arma> mmmm, I'm biased.  I hate hamburgers.
23:02 <Lucifer_arma> and they don't pay for shit, even for a burger place.
23:02 <spidey> i got 1 double hamburger
23:03 <spidey> i ate it for lunch
23:03 <spidey> and supper :/
23:03 <n54> hmm have you got kebabs over there on the other side of the pond?
23:03 <Lucifer_arma> k-bob's?  Steakhouse?
23:03 <spidey> no
23:03 <n54> lol no, ok :)
23:03 <spidey> it's a stick covered in meat
23:04 <Lucifer_arma> shishkebabs?  (sp?)
23:04 <spidey> yes but we call 'em shishkeobs or soemthing
23:04 <n54> it's a form of shishkebabs yes
23:04 <Lucifer_arma> skewers more often than not :)
23:04 <spidey> yea uci got it :p
23:04  * spidey hates this keyboard
23:04 <n54> europeanized you could say
23:04 <n54> kebab that is
23:05 <spidey> i know they're in england
23:05 <n54> like american deep pan is very different from italian pizza
23:05 <spidey> there's this fish fast food place
23:05 <spidey> long john silvers
23:05 <Lucifer_arma> good shrimp :)
23:05 <spidey> man that shits soo greasy i got sick :/
23:05  * Lucifer_arma managed to work at Long John Silver's once
23:06  * spidey loves shrimp
23:06 <spidey> there's this place up here ryans
23:06 <spidey> it's a good restuarant
23:06 <spidey> they got killer shrimp =p~
23:06 <n54> hehe you're meant to wipe off the grease and lett the paper suck it up :)
23:07 <spidey> mmm
23:07 <Lucifer_arma> we've got Ryan's, they're a chain.  I dont' think I've eaten there, though.
23:07 <n54> with fish'n'chips :)
23:07 <Lucifer_arma> ?  no, you eat the grease too
23:07 <spidey> luci > expensive, but good
23:07 <spidey> like $14 a person here
23:08 <spidey> all you can eat though....
23:08 <Lucifer_arma> I don't eat at chain restaurants if I can help it, sorry.
23:08 <spidey> lol
23:08 <Lucifer_arma> there are a few, but not many.  Rudy's BBQ is one.  :)  But they're a Texas chain, afaik not outside Texas yet
23:08 <spidey> afiak?
23:08 <Lucifer_arma> I like little mom and pop restaurants.  Food's more genuine, service is more personal, and prices are usually better.
23:08 <Lucifer_arma> afaik = as far as I know
23:09 <spidey> ah
23:09 <Lucifer_arma> I wanna eat at a place so genuine where if the family recipe calls for 12 ounces of budweiser piss out of a mexican dick, I'll get 12 ounces of budweiser piss out of a mexican dick
23:10 <n54> 0611 I've got to try to sleep or I'll be up all day :S cya :) (and yuck! lol)
23:10 -!- n54 [n=n54@138.80-203-102.nextgentel.com] has quit []
23:12 <spidey> meh,brb i'm late on a payment :/
23:12 <Lucifer_arma> let me know how it comes out
23:13 <spidey> you gotta be shitting me
23:14 <Lucifer_arma> ?
23:15 <spidey> paypal won't clear the withdrawl till the 5th
23:15 <spidey> i took it out 2 days ago
23:15 <spidey> and the payment's due today :(
23:15 <Lucifer_arma> oh, you were serious about being late on a payment
23:16 <spidey> 'er i think
23:16 <Lucifer_arma> haha, I thought you said you were taking a shit :)
23:16 <spidey> yea :p
23:16 <spidey> no,lol
23:16 <spidey> i pay for
23:16 <spidey> a game server on a 1gig connection and 32 slots
23:16 <spidey> $56 a month for cablr
23:17 <spidey> cable* and 2 $10 hosting pacakges
23:25 <spidey> hahaha
23:26 <spidey> they got life fucked up
23:26 <spidey> they charged me to switch from dallas to destriot servers cause there servers keep going offline for days at a time
23:33 -!- [NP]Tangent [n=hyperdev@] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]

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Logs from 2006-2009 pulled from wrtlprnft
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