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Log from 2006-05-26:
--- Day changed Fri May 26 2006
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01:34 <Lucifer_arma> damn.  It's not so easy to swtich from pyqt3 to pyqt4 :(
01:45 <Lucifer_arma> I almost think it would be better at this point to revert my attempt at pyqt4 and start fresh, copy and paste code as it makes sense to do so
01:45 <Lucifer_arma> I'll sit on it, I can revert at any time at this point.
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03:18 -!- philippeqc [n=philippe@c83-250-130-90.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #armagetron
03:18 <philippeqc> hi
03:22 <Lucifer_arma> hi
03:22 <philippeqc> well, i got to play 3 hours of Age of Empire II yesterday with Hugo (my 7 year old neighborg)
03:23 <Lucifer_arma> did he beat you?
03:23 <philippeqc> we played on the same computer.
03:23 <philippeqc> and I was in charge of fixing things up when everythig when to hell ;)
03:24 <philippeqc> and general guidance (maybe you should build a new house if you want to support more troups)
03:25 <philippeqc> I'd really have some fun to play agains him, but I never really managed to convince him to. And the only worthy second computer that could be used is my gf's, and she is in high need of it.
03:26 <Lucifer_arma> right, reading all those baen books
03:27 <philippeqc> lol, and she is in charge of the web page at her school
03:29 <Lucifer_arma> man, those t2 guys are hypersensitive
03:37  * philippeqc is rereading the discussion about rock and t-2
03:38 <philippeqc> small step question: doesnt Mandriva have all the propriatory drivers in their paid "version"
03:38 <Lucifer_arma> yes
03:38 <Lucifer_arma> um, I think we can distribute the things with no problems from nvidia
03:38 <Lucifer_arma> the problem is that we'd be distributing a tainted kernel, violating the GPL for the kernel itself
03:39 <philippeqc> why cant we do the same thing? Or just have them in the same boot cd for the game?
03:39 <Lucifer_arma> it's a damned if we do, damned if we don't sort of thing
03:40 <Lucifer_arma> I like the idea of having it be a liveCD that works for some people, and then just including regular packages for Mac OS X and Windows that have the special edition artwork
03:40 <Lucifer_arma> so there's value for you, even if the liveCD component doesn't work out
03:40 -!- z-man-work is now known as z-man
03:41  * Lucifer_arma politely greets z-man
03:42 <Lucifer_arma> #g 645/907 * 100
03:43 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: (645 / 907) * 100 = 71.1135612
03:43 <Lucifer_arma> yay, it's 71% finished building t2
03:43 <Lucifer_arma> and it hasn't even been running for a full 24 hours yet
03:44 <z-man> If my laptop would have been on 100% CPU load for that long, its fans would sound loke a smoker's cough :)
03:44 <philippeqc> but how does mandriva goes around the tainted kernel problem then?
03:44 <z-man> like
03:44 <Lucifer_arma> heh.  The fans have been going pretty much nonstop for quite some time :)
03:44 <Lucifer_arma> I think mandriva just ignores the problem
03:44 <philippeqc> the idea of the Mac OS X and Windows special edition is great
03:45 <z-man> They hide behind dynamic linking, I guess
03:45 <Lucifer_arma> it's grey area when it's a module
03:45 <z-man> yeah
03:45 <Lucifer_arma> I think, but don't know for certain, that the binary only part of nvidia's kernel module is the same used on Windows
03:45 <Lucifer_arma> so that makes it independent of linux, i.e. it exists and is useable without linux
03:46 <Lucifer_arma> then the part that grafts it to linux is under a GPL-compatible license, afaik.
03:46 <z-man> Basically, yes. They have unified code.
03:46 <philippeqc> o ok! well that is a nice trick
03:46 <Lucifer_arma> it's entirely possible the lawyers will determine there's no violation for us, and afaik, nvidia doesn't care if we distribute it
03:47 <Lucifer_arma> it might not hurt to check if we can distribute it for pay on a cd like this.  We wouldn't be selling the driver, after all.
03:47 <Lucifer_arma> and it's only useful to people who *have* an nvidia card
03:48 <philippeqc> like me
03:48 <Lucifer_arma> me too :)
03:48 <philippeqc> so then it is all becoming possible
03:48 <Lucifer_arma> rock or t2, either one gets it for us.  possible is no problem here.
03:49 <philippeqc> ok
03:49 <Lucifer_arma> and this thing is sweet.  :)  t2 has a few nice fixes to the build system that make it significantly better.  I just can't wait to see the whole system.  :)
03:49 <Lucifer_arma> basically we just make our own target.  Then you take either the t2 release tarball or get it from svn, plug in our target and packages and build.
03:50 <Lucifer_arma> a minimal system to build the liveCD on my laptop will probably build in somewhere under 4 hours, at a guess.  That's a conservative estimate,
03:50 <Lucifer_arma> it might well build in 2 hours.
03:50 <Lucifer_arma> an iso image comes out the other end
03:50 <philippeqc> wow
03:51 <Lucifer_arma> so, if we do it, do we make the special edition iso for download?  That we make an iso for download there can be doubt, the question is will it include stock artwork or special edition artwork?
03:51 <z-man> The build would be incremental, right? You wouldn't rebuild GCC 9 times every time?
03:51 <Lucifer_arma> not 9 times, but it has to build 2-3 times to bootstrap
03:52 <z-man> The prime question about the special edition artwork is: can we get the artwork?
03:52 <Lucifer_arma> and it is incremental, I think.  rock worked incrementally to some extent, but it wasn't smooth.  I assume but don't know for a fact that t2 has smoothed it out a bit
03:52 <z-man> We could try to recruit ed.
03:52 <Lucifer_arma> I think we can get the artwork.  In fact, I think we should try to get us a little artwork team on the development team
03:53 <Lucifer_arma> maybe give them an svn module to work in
03:53 <philippeqc> i see a problem with the special edition artwork: Those furnishing it will be interested into sharing the profit of the sale of the CD. Then the developer will feel robbed, as their contribution is freely distributed.
03:53 <philippeqc> And without monetary compensation, it can be semi tricky to get new artwork developped
03:53 <Lucifer_arma> I don't think we should accept artwork under those circumstances, but bringing them onto the development team addresses that issue
03:54 <philippeqc> yes, that would be a solution.
03:54 <Lucifer_arma> and, you know, there was some good artwork made for artemis that didn't make it into the release that came from developers
03:54 <Lucifer_arma> there's probably more where that came from :)
03:55 <philippeqc> we need to enable more dynamic changes in the artwork, and to support it from the map/css to make its distribution easier.
03:55 <Lucifer_arma> but to be honest, I think we should focus more on the server cd to start anyway.  It's the lower hanging fruit, and it's a free download no matter what.
03:55 <philippeqc> That should lead to more interest in the artwork
03:56 <Lucifer_arma> and if we put out a server cd, then we've said "we can do this" and proved it :)
03:56 <z-man> Right. Go server!
03:56 <philippeqc> lucifer kinda eliminated my question.
03:57  * Lucifer_arma eats questions.
03:57 <Lucifer_arma> damn, boost takes awhile to build
03:57 <z-man> Yo've got a rich diet.
03:57 <Lucifer_arma> there are advantages to being an omnivore
03:57 <z-man> boost has a build?
03:57 <Lucifer_arma> heh, my daughter bitched about mosquitoes biting her.  I told her to bite them back.  She just stared for a few minutes.
03:58 <z-man> :)
03:58 <Lucifer_arma> Can't believe I still shock her.
03:58 <Lucifer_arma> == 03:30:05 =[5]=> Building develop/boost [1_33_1 2.2-trunk].
03:58 <z-man> I though boost was a template library mostlu
03:58 <z-man> hmm
04:00 <Lucifer_arma> gcc-C++-action bin/boost/libs/wave/build/libboost_wave.a/gcc/release/instantiate_defined_grammar.o
04:00 <Lucifer_arma> wow, that whole line only has 1 space in it
04:01 -!- n54 [n=n54@138.80-203-102.nextgentel.com] has joined #armagetron
04:02  * Lucifer_arma politely greets n54
04:02 <n54> hi there :)
04:03 <philippeqc> hello
04:04 <Lucifer_arma> so, squat is the squat quality assurance team?
04:04 <z-man> yes
04:04  * Lucifer_arma doesn't really find recursive acronyms all that entertaining anymore
04:04 <z-man> no, me neither
04:04 <z-man> but it gives everyone the perfect excuse to make up alternative meanings
04:04 <Lucifer_arma> but I find acronyms that don't copletely resemble what they stand for very entertaining :)
04:05 <Lucifer_arma> which reminds me, I have to rename acme.  There's already a program, I think it's a gnome program, named it
04:07 <Lucifer_arma> I was excited about being 71% finished until I saw how long it took boost to bild
04:07 <z-man> apropos squat: n54, seing you're on the Beta Testers list, would you be interested to join the about-to-be-created Quality Assurance Team?
04:07 <n54> I doubt that I'm qualified :)
04:08 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, he just lurks on irc and doesn't play the game anymore
04:08 <Lucifer_arma> :P
04:08 <z-man> Bah, that can change :)
04:08 <n54> well I'ae planning to start playing again one of these days ;)
04:09 <n54> but quality assurance sounds somewhat heavy, what would it entail?
04:09 <Lucifer_arma> even so, since he's here so much, he can help turn bad bug reports into good bug reports
04:09 <z-man> exactly
04:09 <n54> hehe that I can do :) *nice to bugs' ;)
04:09 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: until very recently, I think anyone could write to CVSROOT
04:10 <Luke-Jr> z-man: you forgot to tell me what to edit, btw
04:10 <z-man> n54: http://forums.armagetronad.net/viewtopic.php?t=3621
04:10  * n54 checks link
04:10 <z-man> Luke-Jr: CVSROOT/avail
04:10 <z-man> You need to check out hte CVSROOT module
04:10 <z-man> there is the avail file
04:10 <z-man> saying:
04:10 <z-man> # Luke: remove comment here
04:11 <z-man> # unavail
04:11 <z-man> and you need to change that last line to
04:11 <Luke-Jr> ok
04:11 <Luke-Jr> heh
04:11 <z-man> unavail
04:11 <Luke-Jr> that'ss all?
04:11 <z-man> yes
04:11 <Luke-Jr> O.o
04:11 <Lucifer_arma> and we're done with cvs with this?
04:11 <z-man> If you delete all the following lines, you can block CVS forever for everyone :)
04:12 <z-man> Lucifer_arma: almost, may see some CVS changes still
04:12 <z-man> but I'll merge those to SVN by hand.
04:12 <z-man> so for everything else, yes, CVS will be dead.
04:13 <Luke-Jr> BTW, we should still consider finding somewhere to host Svn other than SF
04:13 <Luke-Jr> Since sticking with SF for Svn, we lose the ability to manage our own hooks
04:13 <Lucifer_arma> btw we pretty much decided to go with darcs with svn backend, eh?
04:13 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: or Svn backend for now, at least
04:14 <Luke-Jr> This conversion is pretty much lossless, so we could even theoretically go somewhere else
04:14 <z-man> CVS Hooks were supported fine on SF, isn't that the case for SVN?
04:14 <Lucifer_arma> always a qualifier
04:14 <Luke-Jr> z-man: nope, SF won't let projects control Svn hooks
04:14 <Luke-Jr> z-man: except a few predefined ones
04:14  * z-man checks the site docs
04:14 <Luke-Jr> of which one is CIA, IIRC the only thing we use hooks for
04:15 <n54> heh you guys are trying to scare me away by giving me work aren't you? ^" on a serious note: 1. aren't you giving QA a bit too much power? 2. I'm the opposite of a speed demon and would be useless in such a position so I can't say yes
04:16 <Lucifer_arma> isn't qa's power to reasonably block releases until they stop sucking?
04:16 <n54> hmm ok 
04:17 <n54> except I think devs should have the ultimate final say, but then again perhaps I read it a bit wrong
04:17 <Luke-Jr> z-man: the problem with svn:externals is that it doesn't allow relative links
04:17 <z-man> Luke-Jr: That's not a problem :)
04:17 <Luke-Jr> z-man: no?
04:18 <z-man> not for the usage case I gave.
04:18 <Luke-Jr> in *most* setups, anonymous Svn uses a different URI than developer Svn
04:18 <Luke-Jr> thus, a workspace would only work for developers or only for anon
04:18 <Lucifer_arma> yay, boost is done.  Well, done building, now it's putting it into a binary package file
04:19 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: did you look at OE, BTW?
04:19 <n54> gnorty sounds like a good candidate for the QA team though
04:19 <Lucifer_arma> n54: I'm not sure what the problem is.  Ultimate Final Say, imo, falls under "unreasonable block on release"
04:19 <Lucifer_arma> Luke-Jr: OE?
04:19 <Luke-Jr> n54: except that he's lax at testing stuff ;)
04:19 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: OpenEmbedded
04:20 <Lucifer_arma> no, I didn't, since embedded usually means cpus that we're not dealing with
04:20 <Lucifer_arma> wait a minute, I might have looked at it on my way to finding ROCK/t2
04:20 <n54> ok Luci & Luke
04:20 <Lucifer_arma> is it the one that's debian-based, but still lsb compliant?
04:21 <Lucifer_arma> uses alien to support rpm packages?
04:21 <z-man> Luke-Jr: well, workspaces are mostly for developers :) If they don't work for anon users, we'll give them a different workspace.
04:21 <n54> I might join sometime in the future when/if I get better :) anyway thanx for asking :)
04:21 <Lucifer_arma> n54: there also needs to be some synergy between qa and developers for it to work, in which case who gets the Ultimate Final say isn't relevant.  :)
04:21 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: OpenEmbedded builds an OS image without the need to execute what it builds
04:22 <n54> yeah I guess you're right
04:22 <Lucifer_arma> since when is there a need to execute what is built?
04:22 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: You don't need to execute GCC? =p
04:23 <Lucifer_arma> GCC is for building.  I don't understand what you're tlaking about.  You need to bootstrap the build no matter what and get it free of the host system.
04:23 <Lucifer_arma> can't build an OS that depends on dynamic links to libraries on the host system, can you?
04:23 <Lucifer_arma> and you can't get around that step.  gentoo only hides it, but you have to do it somehow.
04:25 <Luke-Jr> z-man: could you enable Svn on the project and make sure everyone relevant has Svn access?
04:25 <z-man> I probably should do that :)
04:27 <Lucifer_arma> Luke-Jr: openembedded is for handhelds, it looks like.
04:27 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: anyway, OE can build for diff arches, and produce disk images
04:27 <Luke-Jr> handhelds are one supported target
04:28 <Lucifer_arma> and how is that different from t2?  :)
04:28 <Luke-Jr> no idea; mostly just mentioning/explaining what OE is in case you hadn't considered it
04:28 <Lucifer_arma> besides basic design decisions being made differently
04:29 <Luke-Jr> not even sure if we're talking about your car OS or AA livecd
04:29 <Lucifer_arma> ah, ok.  I hadn't, but it doesn't look like it'll be big enough
04:29 <Luke-Jr> big enough? O.o
04:29 <Lucifer_arma> whichever we're talking about, it's still desktop hardware and requires desktop hardware support, therefore desktop kernel
04:30 <Lucifer_arma> also, since it's desktop hardware, I'd prefer to avoid using stuff like dietlibc or one of the tiny X11 distributions
04:30 <Lucifer_arma> we've got the resources for a full-blown glibc and X.org.
04:30 <Lucifer_arma> but when embedded is your primary target, you go with dietlibc or uclibc and one of the really freaking small X11 distributions
04:30  * Luke-Jr looks at glibc_2.4.bb, "err.. what? =p"
04:31 <Lucifer_arma> that's kinda why, for my car computer anyway, I was rejecting any of the embedded os's
04:31  * Lucifer_arma notes that t2 has quite a few embedded targets as well
04:31 <Lucifer_arma> and it uses dietlibc for some of them.  Hey, when you've only got 2MB of diskspace...
04:32 <Luke-Jr> hm... can t2 build KDE?
04:32 <Lucifer_arma> yes?  would it be useful as a desktop distribution builder if it couldn't?
04:32 <Luke-Jr> ... link plz? (I'm guessing google won't do this one)
04:33 <Lucifer_arma> actually, google will.  :)  but I think it's http://www.t2-project.org/
04:33 <Lucifer_arma> their website is pretty sucky, though.
04:33 <Luke-Jr> well, I have tried many times to cross-compile KDE and failed miserably
04:33 <Lucifer_arma> what was your target?
04:33 <Luke-Jr> Zaurus Cxx0
04:34 <Luke-Jr> ARM
04:34 <Lucifer_arma> hmmm.....  I don't know if it'll build kde for that
04:34 <Lucifer_arma> does that thing enough have enough memory to hold kde?
04:34 <Luke-Jr> hrm
04:34 <Luke-Jr> dunno
04:34 <Luke-Jr> or do you mean disk space?
04:34 <Lucifer_arma> both.  sorry, my clie only has memory, programs run in place
04:34 <Luke-Jr> in which case, I think it could hold at least kdebase
04:34 <Lucifer_arma> I tend to think all pda's are like that
04:35 <Luke-Jr> IIRC, 64 MB RAM
04:35 <Luke-Jr> maybe they are
04:35 <Luke-Jr> most of the PDA-style Zaurus are RAM-only, IIRC
04:35 <Lucifer_arma> you're probably right about the 64MB, but I don't remember exactly
04:36 <Lucifer_arma> might be 32, I am a known cheapskate after all
04:36 <Lucifer_arma> t2 won't build for it, though.
04:36 <z-man> WTF?
04:36 <z-man> svn: Unrecognized URL scheme 'httpS://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/armagetronad'
04:36 <z-man> grrr
04:36 <z-man> looks like I have to rebuild svn yet again.
04:37 <Lucifer_arma> #g 663/907
04:37 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 663 / 907 = 0.730981257
04:37 <philippeqc> z-man, I get the same error
04:37 <Lucifer_arma> oh boy, 73% complete now
04:39 <Lucifer_arma> dave@ghostwheel:~$  svn co https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/armagetronad armagetronad
04:39 <Lucifer_arma> Checked out revision 0.
04:39 <z-man> philippeqc: It's working on my laptop when I s/S/s/, otherwise it crashes :(
04:39 <Luke-Jr> hm, someone with t2 is at least a little dense o.O
04:39 <Lucifer_arma> segfault when I make it a capital S, heh
04:39 <Luke-Jr> "...for the KDE Kool Desktop Environment."
04:39 <z-man> Lucifer_arma: exactly the same here :)
04:39 <Luke-Jr> K != Kool
04:40 <z-man> Krap?
04:40 <Luke-Jr> ...K
04:40 <Lucifer_arma> ?  K used to mean kool, until they started getting big and needed a more marketable name
04:40 <Lucifer_arma> I know you'd like to rewrite history, but face it, K means kool.
04:40 <Luke-Jr> not anymore =p
04:40 <Lucifer_arma> and it's lame, and PHB types don't like it, that's why they changed it
04:42 <Lucifer_arma> they've also got a plone-driven website in development
04:42 <philippeqc> ok, fixed here, it was a lib that was missing.
04:43 <philippeqc> svn: PROPFIND request failed on '/svnroot/armagetronad'
04:43 <philippeqc> svn: PROPFIND of '/svnroot/armagetronad': Could not read status line: Secure connection truncated (https://svn.sourceforge.net)
04:43 <Lucifer_arma> t2 has support for cvs and svn urls for package sources, so we can make a svn trunk package for it
04:43 <philippeqc> I expect it is that because we still arent live!
04:43 <Luke-Jr> philippeqc: worked here
04:43 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: most build systems do
04:44 <Lucifer_arma> do you get anything besides an empty directory at revision 0?
04:44 <z-man> Lucifer_arma: no
04:44 <Luke-Jr> no, you shouldn't either
04:44 <Lucifer_arma> ah, ok.
04:44 <philippeqc> Checked out revision 0.
04:44 <philippeqc> worked
04:44 <z-man> empty up to the .ssh subdirectory, that is.
04:44 <Lucifer_arma> I think Luke should change his name to Luke "Rains on everybody's parade" Jr
04:44 <z-man> philippeqc: just a glitch?
04:44 <philippeqc> it seems!
04:45 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: T2's dependency detector is nice
04:45  * philippeqc should learn to try stuff twice before accepting it as a problem.... 
04:45 <Lucifer_arma> you mean the one it doesn't have?
04:46 <Luke-Jr> "Dependencies (build time detected):"
04:46  * Lucifer_arma notes that rpm does that
04:46 <Luke-Jr> hmm?
04:46 <philippeqc> sheesh, I think I should NEVER get a quantum computer. I'd get the one where all the qbits are always as "maybe"
04:46 <Lucifer_arma> any good build system does, after all
04:46 <Lucifer_arma> if it doesn't, then it just plain sucks
04:46 <Luke-Jr> Portage does not
04:46 <Lucifer_arma> even deb does that
04:47 <Luke-Jr> oh
04:47 <Lucifer_arma> this is like elementary package building
04:47 <Luke-Jr> it detects the dependencies?
04:47 <Lucifer_arma> first semester of package building, you learn how to do that
04:47 <Luke-Jr> without a developer manually listing them?
04:47 <Lucifer_arma> yep
04:47 <Lucifer_arma> I forget the command, though.  it's part of binutils.  scans an elf executable for dynamic links
04:47 <Luke-Jr> ldd
04:48 <Lucifer_arma> ah, so you know about it!
04:48 <Luke-Jr> yes
04:48 <Luke-Jr> never noticed a pkg manager using it tho
04:48 <Luke-Jr> aww
04:48 <Luke-Jr> T2 doesn't cross-compile KDE
04:51 <Lucifer_arma> heh, t2 is trying to draft Luke to do work
04:52 <Luke-Jr> ;)
04:56 <Lucifer_arma> heh, "if armagetron decides to use t2 to build their livecd and server distribution, you'll be seeing a lot more of me as I come around here to bitch about how t2 is not gentoo"
04:59 <Luke-Jr> <Lucifer_arma> I put two of my celerons together and hit them with a hammer to see if a 64-bit celeron would come out of it
04:59 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: why not use Gentoo then?
05:02 <z-man> Gee, SVN takes longer to configure than AA to build.
05:03 <Lucifer_arma> we probably shouldn't argue the merits of xhtml/kword for college papers in the t2 channel, Luke-Jr 
05:03 <z-man>   SSL library:     No SSL support
05:03 <z-man> grr
05:03 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: why not?
05:03 <Luke-Jr> z-man: O.o
05:03 <Lucifer_arma> because we have a channel right here we can do it in :)
05:03 <z-man> philippeqc: which library was missing for you? OpenSSL?
05:03 <philippeqc> no, it was to access the http repository
05:03 <Luke-Jr> ...
05:04 <Luke-Jr> Portage thinks I lack KDE
05:04 <Luke-Jr> such great news
05:04 <Lucifer_arma> damn, all that trash talking, and it turns out you really are a gnome guy
05:04  * Luke-Jr --skipfirst
05:04 <philippeqc> lib64svn_ra_dav1_0: HTTP/DAV Repository Access for the Subversion Client
05:04 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: nope, I use KDE =p
05:04 <Lucifer_arma> portage doesn't make mistakes... :)
05:04 <Luke-Jr> it does when I cheat on it?
05:05 <Lucifer_arma> ah, well then, that's a different story
05:05 <Luke-Jr> I use Svn KDE
05:05 <Lucifer_arma> portage doesn't support svn urls for package sources?
05:05 <Lucifer_arma> that sucks
05:06 <Luke-Jr> Gentoo doesn't have KDE Svn ebuilds
05:06 <Luke-Jr> and I don't care to make them
05:06 <Lucifer_arma> can't you just take the regular kde ebuild and change the source url?
05:07 <Luke-Jr> maybe
05:07 <Luke-Jr> didn't try
05:08 <Lucifer_arma> anyway, the thing about t2 supporting them is that we could have our server cd ship with the stable release, and then give admins the option to install from svn
05:08 <Lucifer_arma> you know, help us test and stuff if they want.  Make it really easy to checkout svn--if you're running our own linux
05:08 <philippeqc> about having a secondary/different repository for svn than sf, how much disk space could be required?
05:08 <Lucifer_arma> ummm, iirc, the issue was keeping them in sync
05:09  * Lucifer_arma doesn't know about disk space
05:09 <Luke-Jr> 1 sec
05:09 <Lucifer_arma> it's probably a little more than cvs calls for because svn doesn't store diffs, it stores complete files
05:09 <z-man> it does?
05:09 <Lucifer_arma> afaik, yes
05:09 <z-man> thought it would always store BINARY diffs
05:10 <Lucifer_arma> hmmmm........
05:10 <z-man> I remember reading a section in the SVN book about how efficient that is
05:10 <Luke-Jr> last I checked, svn does diffs...
05:11 <z-man> It was this thing the kernel devs use that stores full files
05:12 <Luke-Jr> certainly looks like binary diff data
05:12 <Luke-Jr> Git?
05:13 <philippeqc>  Subversion, however, expresses differences between files using a binary-differencing algorithm, regardless of whether they contain textual or binary data. That means that all files are stored differentially (compressed) in the repository.
05:13 <philippeqc> that should have been quoted
05:13 <Luke-Jr> the actual data isn't compressed
05:14 <Luke-Jr> else I wouldn't have been able to read it in nano =p
05:18 <Lucifer_arma> doing diffs and storing diffs are different, but I'm not finding anything in the subversion manual about it
05:18 <Luke-Jr> Oldest rev: 1466 from armagetronad.svndump (2005-08-19T14:39:30.000000Z)
05:18 <Luke-Jr> ... writing as rev 1725
05:18 <Lucifer_arma> maybe I was on crack.  :)
05:19 <Luke-Jr> Oldest rev: 175 from armagetronad_build.svndump (2006-01-14T15:40:48.000000Z)
05:19 <Luke-Jr> ... writing as rev 2818
05:19 <Lucifer_arma> #g 681/907
05:19 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 681 / 907 = 0.750826902
05:21 <Lucifer_arma> school starts tuesday
05:25 <z-man> about lunchtime :)
05:25 <Luke-Jr> eh
05:27 <Luke-Jr> now doing Stage 3c trial
05:27 <Luke-Jr> that will give us an estimated repository size
05:28 <Luke-Jr> and also an estimated post-import revision ;)
05:32 <Luke-Jr> about half done
05:39 <Lucifer_arma> still building thunderbird?
05:48 <Luke-Jr> no?
05:48 <Luke-Jr> was I earlier?
05:48 <Luke-Jr> Stage 3c Trial completed
05:48 <Luke-Jr> Repository size 111 MB
05:49 <Luke-Jr> Last revision 4572
05:50 <Lucifer_arma> no, me
05:50 <Lucifer_arma> cheese pizza sucks
05:50 <Luke-Jr> o
05:50 <Luke-Jr> sorry
05:50 <Luke-Jr> I only like chz and non-canada bacon
05:50 <Lucifer_arma> so how does the repository look?
05:50 <Luke-Jr> hm?
05:50 <Luke-Jr> 111 MB at rev 4572
05:51 <Lucifer_arma> well, it's a trial.  Does the history look intact?  what do you need to do to determine if its ready to throw on sourceforge?
05:51 <Luke-Jr> it's not, there's still stages 3d, 3e, and 4*
05:52 <Luke-Jr> if you want to check details, http://beta.armagetronad.net/websvn/listing.php?repname=AA2&path=%2F&rev=0&sc=0
05:53 <Luke-Jr> If you want to do an actual checkout, it's in /home/luke-jr/src/armagetron/svn.2/m/testrepo on my server
05:53 <Luke-Jr> (minus the '/m/' if you want pre-3c)
05:54 <Luke-Jr> not sure the best way to do that over the network w/o going to the trouble to setup a Svn server
05:56 <Lucifer_arma> I don't know if I like the idea of getting involved with a project that takes more than 24 hours to build.  Heh.
05:57 <Luke-Jr> that'd be any livecd...
05:57 <Luke-Jr> but like I said, why not use Gentoo Catalyst? =p
05:57 <Luke-Jr> then at least it's familiar somewhat
05:57 <Luke-Jr> and I think they have game livecd profiles already
05:59 <Lucifer_arma> well, if a livecd were all we're after, Kubuntu and Mandriva both offer tools to build them, too
05:59 <Lucifer_arma> me, personally, I need some deep down customizations that are either not possible without ripping out big parts of the debian core, or are too much of a pain to make it worth the trouble
05:59 <Lucifer_arma> in the presense of a tool built to do excatly what I'm wanting to do, that is
06:01 <Luke-Jr> what?
06:01 <Lucifer_arma> ?
06:02 <Luke-Jr> what are you doing other than a LiveCD?
06:02 <Lucifer_arma> the car computer...
06:02 <Luke-Jr> o
06:02 <Luke-Jr> so you're using it for both
06:02 <Lucifer_arma> and I'd like the car computer project to result in a linux distribution that anybody can download and use to put computers in their cars :)
06:03 <Luke-Jr> i c
06:03 <Lucifer_arma> partly that's to simplify upgrades for myself, I admit.  Making software generaly useful for other people simplifies some things for yourself.
06:03 <Lucifer_arma> having found this t2 thing, I'm also interested in taking my custom KDE settings and building a distribution that sorta institutionalizes them
06:04 <Luke-Jr> part of the Armagetron program?
06:04 <Lucifer_arma> I have a "Intro to Linux" article on my website that gets some pretty good traffic.  It'd be nice to offer a CD to go with it
06:04 <Lucifer_arma> no, my custom kde settings are pretty intense.  Some applications can only be on certain desktops, maximized.  Some other things.
06:04 <Luke-Jr> I was quoting TRON
06:05 <Luke-Jr> "Part of the Master Control Program?"
06:05 <Lucifer_arma> I'd like to then take those settings and use them to build a distribution for music production, to support another article I wrote
06:05 <Lucifer_arma> Then I'd like to take these things and put them for sale, possibly with a manual.  :)
06:05 <Lucifer_arma> I figure I get enough traffic on those two articles that I might pull some pocket change that way, and it's about time I started diversifying my income anyway
06:06 <Luke-Jr> sell boxes with CDs, manual, and a stuffed gnu =p
06:06 <Lucifer_arma> of course, I'd need to offer repositories of other packages, or have some way to provide people with the means to get other packages, but I can burn that bridge when I come to it
06:06 <Lucifer_arma> first thing's first, finish this article I've got to write, then build the car computer and write that article
06:06 <Lucifer_arma> that's probably about $500 there, for a side project.  Not bad, eh?
06:07 <Luke-Jr> the stuffed gnu is important
06:07 <Lucifer_arma> plus some other programming work I need to try to have wrapped up before Tuesday.  Then the Drupal stage starts.
06:07 <Lucifer_arma> Well, does cafepress offer stuffed gnus?
06:07 <Luke-Jr> don't think so
06:07 <Luke-Jr> but SuSE has their lizard thing as a beanie
06:07 <Luke-Jr> so you need it to compete with them
06:07 <Luke-Jr> ;)
06:07 <Lucifer_arma> :)
06:08 <Luke-Jr> I got it from a LinuxWorld Expo
06:08 <Luke-Jr> wish I was close enough to go to those more often
06:08 <Lucifer_arma> not looking to compete with the big guys, just offer some special-purpose stuff derived from personal pursuits.
06:08 <Luke-Jr> but the beanie...
06:08 <Luke-Jr> that's a seller right there! =p
06:09 <Luke-Jr> I was long since disinterested in SuSE, yet I sat at their booth to get the beanie =p
06:09 <Lucifer_arma> http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/product.aspx?clear=true&no=26
06:10 <Luke-Jr> would be nice to have got Ximian's monkeys tho
06:10 <Luke-Jr> but at least I got 'monkey munchies' from them
06:10 <Lucifer_arma> http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/product.aspx?clear=true&no=80
06:10 <Luke-Jr> mwahaha
06:10  * Luke-Jr thinks he might be in serious need of sleep =p
06:11 <Lucifer_arma> yay, thunderbird's done
06:12 <Lucifer_arma> is there a perlqt?
06:13 <Luke-Jr> dunno
06:13 <Luke-Jr> my wife would kill you for posting that second link, btw
06:14 <Lucifer_arma> thongs are cool
06:15 <Lucifer_arma> there is a perlqt, but it looks unmaintained since 2003
06:15 <Luke-Jr> dumb
06:16 <Luke-Jr> 'night
06:16 <Lucifer_arma> 'night
06:18 <Lucifer_arma> #g 685/907
06:18 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 685 / 907 = 0.755237045
06:33 <Lucifer_arma> http://supybot.com/Members/Synapse/TracBot
06:35 <z-man> Weee
06:35 <z-man> Does that mean we get #bug 123 here?
06:52 <Lucifer_arma> maybe
06:53 <Lucifer_arma> it's definitely something that argues in favor of trac, though.  :)
06:57 <Lucifer_arma> #g 699/907
06:57 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 699 / 907 = 0.770672547
06:59 <Lucifer_arma> you still have a trac installation going?
07:02  * Lucifer_arma hopes we can get Evil Triumvirate recognized at large as a professional, positive project management structure
07:03 <Lucifer_arma> someday there will be a version of FreeCiv with an Evil Triumvirate government!  It'll give you +1 trade, +2 industry, and +3 happiness!
07:03  * Lucifer_arma blows up in a puff of idealistic smoke
07:04 <n54> well according to some it's the preferred structure of Hell's top management ^^
07:04 <n54> that _should_ be a selling point to PHBes :)
07:11 <Lucifer_arma> by my book, there's 4 in charge of hell.
07:12 <Lucifer_arma> #g 704/907
07:12 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 704 / 907 = 0.776185226
07:22 <n54> meh I need 1-to-2 splits for 3-pin cables (for computer fans) and norwegian shops online and otherwise just plain suck :(
07:26 <Lucifer_arma> peel off some insulation on each of the wires and strip leads on the fan you want to wire in, then tape it up, eh?
07:26 <Lucifer_arma> of course, make sure the computer is off when you do that.
07:28 <n54> :)
07:30  * n54 moved the computer back down on the floor, the noise was driving me insane and now strangely enough I can barely hear it :D
07:46 <wrtlprnft> Luke-Jr: i know, i was just kidding :P
07:46 <wrtlprnft> #morning
07:46 <armabot> Good Morning wrtlprnft! Random Fortune:  Somebody's terminal is dropping bits. I found a pile of them over in the || corner.
07:49 <wrtlprnft> yay kdesvn seems to work, as far as you can test with an enpty directory
07:51 <n54> morning wrtlprnft :)
07:59 <Lucifer_arma> whenever I meet someone in Berlin, I always wonder if they're east german or west german.  Do such distinctions even matter anymore?
08:01 <philippeqc>  morning wrtlprnft 
08:06 <n54> it only matters if you need someone who's fluent in russian :)
08:07 <n54> hi philippeqc :)
08:07 <philippeqc> hello n54 
08:08 <n54> as for people in general there's still hugher unemployment and such in the east Lucifer, but it hasn't been enough time yet
08:09  * n54 is sure the germans here have many insights to provide us with
08:09 <n54> higher*
08:11 <Lucifer_arma> I knew that about the respective economies.  That was one of the issues in the last election, iirc.  The one that lady from east germany won, I mean.
08:12 <Lucifer_arma> and I hear, but don't know for a fact, that east berlin is kind of a slum area, for the most part.  I don't know if slum is the right word, though.  Hmmm....
08:13 <n54> hmm checks wikipedia
08:13 <Lucifer_arma> and anybody within about 5 years of my age (from below) grew up in the last years of the iron curtain
08:13 <n54> umm Hamburg i.e. not former east germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel
08:14 <n54> I'm your age, I wouldn't even say the "last years" :)
08:15 <n54> oh born in haburg but still citizen of east germany... *didn't know that*
08:15 <Lucifer_arma> aha, grew up in east germany though
08:15 <n54> Hamburg*
08:15 <n54> interesting
08:15 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, she's a hamburger :)
08:16 <n54> better a hamburger than a berliner :P (berliner is a kind of bun - a big bloop by kennedy lol)
08:16 <Lucifer_arma> apparently she didn't grow up a commie, though.
08:17 <SuPeRTaRD> I wouldnt wanna get caught holding that tar baby.
08:17 <SuPeRTaRD> :)
08:17 <n54> tar?
08:17 <n54> tar.gz? sticky stuff?
08:18 <SuPeRTaRD> tar.dz
08:18 <n54> lol SuPeRTaRD :)
08:19 <Lucifer_arma> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/be/AMerkel.jpg/250px-AMerkel.jpg  <--- I'll bet she was hot when she was younger
08:19 <wrtlprnft> haha
08:20 <n54> lol weird accosiation the Luci :)
08:20 <philippeqc> Its amazing how political discussion slides into "babes of the past" dicussions
08:20 <n54> association*
08:20 <Lucifer_arma> haha
08:20 <SuPeRTaRD> mmmm cave-girl pussy
08:20 <Lucifer_arma> sorry, I kind of like her.  :)  I don't really know enough about german politics to know if she's really cool or not, but she's a science woman, and that's cool enough.
08:21 <Lucifer_arma> but science + politics?  The only thing that doesn't make sense is the CDU thing, but I'm probably just stereotyping christian political parties
08:21 <philippeqc> SuPeRTaRD: I think you over stretched the "babes of the past" idea
08:22 <Lucifer_arma> nah, I've seen the same girls around Austin he has, and cave-girl is about right
08:22 <SuPeRTaRD> takin' it to the next level
08:22 <n54> ok look Luci you have to realize that everywhere except in the US the word "christian" has normally meant that people _aren't_ complete nutjobs (the US trend is spreading though) :D
08:22 <philippeqc> Miss amobea of the month
08:22 <wrtlprnft> hmm, the german article is about twice as long, but has just one image
08:22 <SuPeRTaRD> it does?
08:22 <SuPeRTaRD> does that include catholics?
08:23 <n54> surprisingly yes :)
08:23 <SuPeRTaRD> they are nutjobs
08:23 <SuPeRTaRD> bleeding/weeping statues
08:23 <SuPeRTaRD> pfffft
08:23 <Lucifer_arma> n54: nah, you have to be a nutjob to believe subjective stories told by primitive people are more accurate than modern science
08:23 <philippeqc> many catholics are prefectly well adjusted persons. Its not an entry membership requirement.
08:23 <n54> remember that the US was more or less based on english religious people who were so extremely pios that nobody wanted them around - so they travelled to another continent...
08:24 <n54> pious* aka prude
08:24 <SuPeRTaRD> most christians in america are 2faced bigots who enjoy war
08:24 <Lucifer_arma> you could take that interpretation and ignore the huge immigration of really smart and talented europeans in the late 19th/early 20th century that sucked europe dry of all its worthwhile talent
08:25 <Lucifer_arma> :)
08:25 <SuPeRTaRD> mebbe down thru history too
08:25  * Lucifer_arma nods to his Italian great-grandparents
08:25 <n54> wellt here was a thing called WWII Luci
08:25 <n54> well there*
08:25 <Lucifer_arma> another damn european war.  what of it?
08:26 <n54> ok this is getting too silly nevermind :)
08:26 <Lucifer_arma> heh
08:26 <Lucifer_arma> you could have just made your point by reminding me of that church group in kansas
08:26 <wrtlprnft> iraq is probably another damn asian war, right?
08:26 <Lucifer_arma> "Terrorists harass the US army in Iraq because there are too many fags in the US!"
08:27 <Lucifer_arma> man, talk about nutjobs.
08:27 <n54> yup
08:27 <Lucifer_arma> wrtlprnft: no, it's a middle-eastern war :P
08:27 <SuPeRTaRD> nah, iran is PROBABLY another tho
08:27 <SuPeRTaRD> ;p
08:27 <Lucifer_arma> nah, that's not our style
08:27 <Lucifer_arma> first we gonna do sanctions and starve their kids
08:28 <Lucifer_arma> then we're gonna get france to trade them food for oil while we cut off everything else
08:28 <Lucifer_arma> so they won't have starving kids, but they'll have big disease
08:28 <Lucifer_arma> then we'll say their leaders suck and invade
08:28 <Lucifer_arma> That, my friend, is how the US makes war
08:28 <philippeqc> that's the christian-american way!
08:29 <n54> that, my frien, is the worst summary I've ever seen of the Iraqi war :D
08:29 <SuPeRTaRD> wont we have cia appoint one of our underground guys as thier leader first?
08:29 <SuPeRTaRD> & then another
08:29 <Lucifer_arma> oh yeah, you're right n54, I left out a detail
08:29 <philippeqc> better train them to be sure they do a good job first.
08:29 <Lucifer_arma> before the sanctions, we're going to go in and bomb the living piss out of them.
08:30 <SuPeRTaRD> did iraqi's have those wonderful diabold machines to vote on?
08:30 <Lucifer_arma> Sanctions work better ona  country trying to rebuild from a war.
08:30 <n54> don't take history lessons from Michael Moore :)
08:30 <Lucifer_arma> eh?  that's not michael moore.  :)
08:30 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: sanctions in a defeated country is how you get WW2 :(
08:31  * Lucifer_arma notes that that's exactly what we did to Iraq
08:31 <n54> yup wrtlprnft
08:31 <Lucifer_arma> have we already forgotten about the whole thing with Kuwait?  back around 1991 or so?
08:31 <n54> sorry Luci you're either just flat wrong or typing it up way to simplistically
08:31 <Lucifer_arma> I know, some of youse weren't even born then or something...
08:31 <Lucifer_arma> ok n54, you tell me what happened then.
08:31 <SuPeRTaRD> youse guys
08:32 <wrtlprnft> i was born, but two years old :P
08:32  * Lucifer_arma nods to his italian great-grandparents again :)
08:32 <n54> will take too long Lucifer
08:32 <Lucifer_arma> "you're flat wrong, but it'll take me too long to show it"
08:32 <SuPeRTaRD> n54 you a republican?
08:32 <Lucifer_arma> I love debates.
08:33 <wrtlprnft> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kuwait#Conflict_with_Iraq
08:33 <Lucifer_arma> they don't have republicans in Norway
08:33 <n54> we do, but they're not what you would recognize as republicans
08:33 <n54> they're for the abolishment of the monarchy
08:34 <n54> but I'm definetly happy Saddam is gone in case that's what you were really asking :)
08:34 <wrtlprnft> did they actually ever catch bin laden?
08:34 <n54> and yeah I would be a republican if I was from the US
08:34 <SuPeRTaRD> sadam is in russia
08:34 <SuPeRTaRD> the guy in the hole was a double
08:35 <Lucifer_arma> screw the republicans, vote libertarian!
08:35 <Lucifer_arma> hey tard, you for Kinky?
08:35 <SuPeRTaRD> i'm for a koo
08:35 <n54> the problem discussing the Iraqi war is that it's so damnd difficult to tell wheter people actually believe what they say or are just making a joke :)
08:36 <SuPeRTaRD> i think all us citizens should march to DC & do the dirty deed
08:36 <Lucifer_arma> strayhorn?  she's pretty cool, you know.
08:37 <Lucifer_arma> well, you know, the only reason I don't like the Iraqi war is that Bush lied to us to go there.  Sure, there's some truth somewhere in what he said, but he was lying through his teeth
08:37 <Lucifer_arma> and it only took half a brain to work out that he was just trying to manipulate american opinion to support a war for his own personal agenda
08:37 <Lucifer_arma> now, he could have given lots of good reasons that would have stood to justify it in my mind *without lying*
08:37 <n54> I disagree (as you well know) :)
08:38 <Lucifer_arma> and he definitely didn't need to play the 9/11 card.  In fact, I think the 9/11 card played like it was is a very dangerous card to play.
08:38 <SuPeRTaRD> its all bullshit.   the last vote was bullshit.
08:38 <SuPeRTaRD> i dont belive anyone voted for him or agrees with him
08:38 <Lucifer_arma> It's basically saying "if we don't go fight this war, 5000 more americans will die when our security agencies fuck up the next time"
08:39 <n54> paraphrasing isnt really all that impressive...
08:39 <Lucifer_arma> well, you can disagree all you want, n54, but lots of credible sources (not Michael Moore) have well-documented the half-truths used to justify the war
08:39 <n54> look there's a big difference between being wrong and lying, can we agree on that as in principle?
08:39 <SuPeRTaRD> last vote, all the polls said teh dems would win,  pre-polls have never been that off b4
08:39 <wrtlprnft> how could Lucifer_arma like Moore? He's texan :P
08:39 <Lucifer_arma> I don't like Moore, that's the point.  :)
08:40 <wrtlprnft> i know
08:40 <wrtlprnft> well, Moore doesn't like texans
08:40 <n54> well you're sleeping with him Luci so well I would have thought that was a problem for you :)
08:40 <SuPeRTaRD> n54, his daddy was head of cia for 30 years
08:40 <Lucifer_arma> eh?  nononono, there's several huge differences between me and Moore.
08:40 <n54> yes I know SuPeRTaRD
08:40 <Lucifer_arma> for one thing, at 200lbs, I'm a lot thinner.
08:40  * n54 doesn't see them right now
08:40 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: that's what I'm saying
08:40 <SuPeRTaRD> i'm pretty sure lil shrub knows anything he wants to know about foriegn politics b4 his decizions
08:41 <wrtlprnft> remember the awful truth and death penalty?
08:41 <Lucifer_arma> n54, when you go to war, you need to go for good reasons.  You're going to cause huge death and destruction, and if you go for the wrong reasons,
08:41 <Lucifer_arma> your'e going to have serious problems.
08:41 <n54> have you read any of christopher hitckins articles Luci?
08:41 <Lucifer_arma> atrocities, een.
08:42 <Lucifer_arma> hmm, don't know.  I don't pay attention to authors.  :)  And I don't read blogs.
08:42 <n54> hold on
08:42 <Lucifer_arma> you could win the war militarily, but lose it in all the ways that matter if you go charging off half-cocked, pumped up full of bullshit
08:43 <SuPeRTaRD> horrible stupid war, i encourage everyone to buy ethenol equipped vehicles & stay home & grow corn.
08:43 <n54> hitcjens* (got the name wrong)
08:43 <SuPeRTaRD> :)
08:43 <SuPeRTaRD> wwbfd
08:43 <SuPeRTaRD> what woudl buckminster fuller do?
08:43 <Lucifer_arma> now, at the time the war happened, I supported waiting 6 months like Germany and France had asked.
08:43 <n54> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens
08:43 <SuPeRTaRD> same
08:43 <Lucifer_arma> I thought that was reasonable, all things considered.
08:44 <SuPeRTaRD> as i recall, us 'mericans dont get to vote on war
08:44 <SuPeRTaRD> dumb.
08:44 <Lucifer_arma> after 6 months, if germany and france still wanted to wuss out, then I would have gladly gone along with this unilateral invasion
08:44 <SuPeRTaRD> our government is corrupt to the core, both partys
08:44 <SuPeRTaRD> & should be overthrown soon
08:44 <Lucifer_arma> and here we get to the difference between me and that fat lazy liberal idiot Michael Moore.
08:44 <SuPeRTaRD> imvho
08:45 <n54> not really
08:45 <SuPeRTaRD> the UN too
08:45 <n54> http://www.slate.com/id/2102723/
08:45 <SuPeRTaRD> cnn, nbc, abc, cbs, fox
08:45 <SuPeRTaRD> microsoft
08:45 <SuPeRTaRD> :)
08:45 <Lucifer_arma> I didn't oppose the war, I opposed the president's reasons for the war
08:46 <Lucifer_arma> and I feared the effect going to war under his pretensions would have on my country
08:46 <Lucifer_arma> luckily, depending on how you look at it, the administration has enough fuckups under their belt since then that the damage that could have been done here has been mostly repaired
08:47 <Lucifer_arma> and it's finally starting to look like Iraq might hold up its end of the deal and get itself established, and that will be really nice
08:48 <n54> look, 1. they focused on more than just wmd 2. the focus that was on wmd was to gain public support because it was the easiest one to understan 3. yes that dumbing down was a stupid move retrospectively 4. almost all intelligence agencies in the world concurred with the notion that Saddam was likely to have B & C weapons (not A, but the knowledge required) 5. a lot of stuff (don't know what) was moved to syria with russian help
08:48 <SuPeRTaRD> they let 9-11 happen..   wake up
08:48 <Lucifer_arma> 1.  he focused on wmd and *failed*
08:48 <n54> I could go on and on but it is not a subject that's easily discussed on a channel/chat
08:48 <SuPeRTaRD> pilots were allowed to carry a handgun from 1969-2001
08:49 <SuPeRTaRD> 3mo b4 911 , they werent
08:49 <Lucifer_arma> so then he whipped out 2.  Iraq breeds terrorists, followed by 3.  Americans have the god-given right to impose democracy, then 4.  Linked Iraq to 9/11, then 5.  I forgot, hang on, and 6.  They tried to assassinate my dad
08:49  * n54 listened to and watched _all_ open sessions of the UN security council as well as all the rest of public announcements etc.
08:50 <Lucifer_arma> whatever, he had to sell it to the american people, and as an american person, I consider myself an eyewitness to what we were told
08:50 <n54> sorry Luci that's just so... *self-censored*
08:50 <Lucifer_arma> so you're saying that from over there in Norway, you feel pretty confident in how the administration presented the war to the people in this country?
08:50 <n54> heh
08:51 <philippeqc> humm, sorry to step in to your discussion with a question about code structure.
08:51 <Lucifer_arma> I might get all uppity, but I like to think I don't pretend to know what a country I don't live in looks like on the ground there
08:51 <n54> cool we need that about now philippeqc :)
08:52 <philippeqc> In my changes to the tValue, I've made Base a template class, so it could have a member function std::set<T> GetCol (Col as in Collection)
08:53 <philippeqc> and this pretty much open up the road for a bunch of collection operations (union, intersection, difference, ...)
08:53 <SuPeRTaRD> to re-itterate, i encourage everyone to stay home & grow corn.  vote for me this fall!
08:53 <Lucifer_arma> SuPeRTaRD: you for Kinky?  Who you like for governor?
08:53 <SuPeRTaRD> yeh freedman
08:53 <philippeqc> Now I'm looking to merge my experimental bits, and wrtlprnft's Set is giving me a headacke
08:53 <SuPeRTaRD> i guess
08:54 <Lucifer_arma> You could go for Perry....  ;)
08:54 <SuPeRTaRD> hell no
08:54 <Lucifer_arma> philippeqc: better wake up wrtlprnft and ask him, he seems to have disappeared
08:54 <philippeqc> Should it (Set) be a trio of T, or a trio of 3 different types.
08:54 <SuPeRTaRD> i dunno when vote date is tho
08:54 <Lucifer_arma> I'm torn.  I like Strayhorn a lot, too.
08:54 <Lucifer_arma> sometime in November, isn't it?
08:54 <SuPeRTaRD> my ex has my voter reg.
08:54 <SuPeRTaRD> :/
08:55 <Lucifer_arma> you don't need it.  :)  Or so I hear, anyway.  You just show your ID.
08:55 <SuPeRTaRD> true
08:55 <SuPeRTaRD> diebold machiens,  my vote prolly dont count ;p
08:55 <Lucifer_arma> I was planning on pissing on the voting machine and giving them a piece of paper
08:56 <SuPeRTaRD> good luck
08:56 <philippeqc> watch out you dont get electrocuted
08:57 <n54> sssh don't increase their paranoia :)
08:58 <Lucifer_arma> well , we could go in and demand to see the source for the machines and make a big deal about how I cna't know my vote counts if I don't know how it's being counted,
08:58 <Lucifer_arma> and the diebold machines in california yadayada (bad machines)
09:01 <n54> saw they got banned by a state a week ago or so, also saw that the f/oss alternatives aren't ready yet (a f/oss system would be nice)
09:01 <n54> s/by/in
09:04 <philippeqc> wrtlprnft: strike that about Set. Realised it contains Bases, and it isnt one, so the prob doesnt exist. Now to see how to set up a static type for String.
09:07 -!- GodTodd [n=GodTodd@c-71-199-204-144.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #armagetron
09:10 <n54> hi GodTodd :)
09:10 <GodTodd> 'ello
09:12 <n54> anyone here got experience with "silencing mats" for pc's? they kind that glues on to the inside of the cabinet?
09:12 <n54> the*
09:19 <philippeqc> I'll go cycle. I cant seem to concentrate. See you in a bit
09:19 <n54> cya :)
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09:38 <Lucifer_arma> I thought california bought and later banned the diebold machines and it was history, pretty much.  Maybe this is another state?
09:39 <Lucifer_arma> #g 707/907
09:39 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 707 / 907 = 0.779492834
09:39 <n54> sorry I don't remember which state it was but I don't think it was ca
09:40 <n54> btw what's the math?
09:41 <Lucifer_arma> progress on the t2 build
09:41 <Lucifer_arma> 907 packages total, 707 complete
09:44 <Lucifer_arma> the wizard of oz is such a twisted story
09:45  * n54 never much cared for it
09:46 <n54> but why do think of it as twisted?
09:46 <n54> do you*
09:46 <Lucifer_arma> hmm, could take awhile :)
09:47 <n54> hmm
09:48 <n54> well, let's say that if it has to do about the Iraq war in some way then count me out ;)
09:49 <Lucifer_arma> haha, not that I know of
09:49 <n54> hehe :D
09:49 <Lucifer_arma> ok, here goes
09:50 <Lucifer_arma> the story starts showing us this girl who's got this dog that's the only thing that seems to love her
09:50 <Lucifer_arma> her family couldn't give a shit about her, and there's the evil church lady that wants to kill the dog
09:50 <Lucifer_arma> then a tornado sweeps along, and when the girl tries to go underground to escape, she finds that she's locked out of the shelter
09:50 <Lucifer_arma> by her family
09:51 <Lucifer_arma> then she goes to the land of oz, a beautiful land where people actually care about her
09:51 <Lucifer_arma> she makes these friends that she becomes very close to
09:51 <Lucifer_arma> and through it all, she's trying to go home!?!
09:51 <n54> heh :)
09:51 <Lucifer_arma> I'll overlook the lion and the others and focus on the girl :)
09:52 <n54> must be something about kansas I guess ;P
09:52 <Lucifer_arma> at the end, she's given a basic choice.  Stay here where people love you and care about you, or go home where nobody gives a rat's ass about you
09:52 <Lucifer_arma> but if you go home, you have to really want to do it!
09:52 <Lucifer_arma> and wouldn't you know?  She *wants* to go home!
09:52 <Lucifer_arma> so she's given a chance to choose a better life for herself, and she passes it up, and for what?  the people that locked her out of the shelter when the tornado came?
09:53 <n54> perhaps it isn't meant to be taken too literal?
09:54  * n54 shouldn't defend stories he think sucks
09:56 <n54> nwever had to study it but I would guess wikipedia has some "spoilers" written by a group of english-language teachers :) shall we check it out?
09:56 <n54> never*
09:56  * n54 must learn to read his sentences before hitting enter - not afterwards
09:57 <Lucifer_arma> I just hit wikipedia actually :)
09:57 <n54> ok i'll load it too
09:57 <Lucifer_arma> looks like the common interpretation is that you have all the resources you need if you just have self-confidence
09:59 <n54> yeah I know that one but it's... lame (I hate that word but it's the only that fits)
10:01 <n54> seen this one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_interpretations_of_The_Wonderful_Wizard_of_Oz
10:04 <Lucifer_arma> hang on, computer's respoding slowly
10:04 <n54> that's ok, no rush
10:07 <Lucifer_arma> it's mostly the c compiler, but for some reason didn't get bad until I hit the page you linked (sometime before you linked it)
10:07 <n54> perhaps running short on memory?
10:08 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, hard drive's cranking nastily
10:08 <Lucifer_arma> usually when I have swap problems like that, it's firefox to blame, so I just killed firefox
10:09 <n54> yeah leaky
10:09 <n54> same here (unless I try to run openoffice or something stupid like that (limited machine))
10:10 <Lucifer_arma> konversation's pretty bad too, hang on
10:10 -!- Lucifer_arma [n=dave@user-0vvdcf9.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
10:10 <n54> hmm that made me wonder if synergy might support copy/paste between the desktops of different machines...
10:12 -!- Lucifer_arma [n=dave@user-0vvdcf9.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #armagetron
10:13 <n54> ooh yeah! yummy! :D "Synergy also merges the clipboards of all the systems into one, allowing cut-and-paste between systems." I so look forward to trying that out :D http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/
10:13 <n54> and wb :) I gotta go for a short while, back in ten or so
10:16 <Lucifer_arma> ko
10:18 <Lucifer_arma> I"m melllting!  What a world, what world!
10:21 <Lucifer_arma> he doesn't have a brain
10:21 <Lucifer_arma> he just gve the most ass-wrong version of the pythagorean theorem I've ever heard
10:23 <n54> back
10:23 <Lucifer_arma> a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you're loved by others
10:23 <n54> that's bs imo
10:23 <n54> is that from the oz?
10:24 <Lucifer_arma> yep, it's what he said the to tinman
10:25 <n54> I can repaste that political oz wikipedia link if you want
10:25 <Lucifer_arma> ironically, the wizard left a triumvirate to rule in his stead
10:26 <Lucifer_arma> I'm fine, I'm actually about to go cook breakfast for myself
10:26 <n54> uh-oh
10:26 <n54> :)
10:28 <Lucifer_arma> I don't think I could dislike this story any less, heh.  maybe we'll pick up this thread again :)
10:28 <n54> well I dislike it even more after reading halfway through that wikipedia thing lol :)
10:29 <n54> sure, next time we're fed up disagreeing or something like that ;)
10:37 -!- madmax|pt [n=madmax@bl4-184-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #armagetron
10:37 <madmax|pt> hello
10:38 <Lucifer_arma> before I go cook breakfast, I wanted to point out that the wizard did say something kinda cool
10:38 <Lucifer_arma> he said (paraphrased to make it cool), "I can't give you a brain, but I can give you a diploma!"
10:42 <n54> mm well that just makes him (the wiz) a phb or something like that imo :)
10:43 <Lucifer_arma> I like the implication that the certificate doesn't mean what it's commonly interpreted to mean: competence
10:43 <Lucifer_arma> of course, I've known guys who were perfectly competent in their fields but generally not very smart...
10:44 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, firefox and konversation had so much memory that every time gcc started a new file it had to swap a bunch of shit out
10:44 <Lucifer_arma> no wonder my computer hd slowed to a crawl
10:45 <Lucifer_arma> well, the book for the wizard of oz is in project gutenberg, maybe I'll put it on my clie and give it a read
10:46 <Lucifer_arma> but I understand the author was pretty genocidal, wrote an editorial in the 1870s advocating killing all the indians, arguing against the reservation policy entirely
10:46 <n54> yeah that makes sense - as to certifications they do have their use, but for the most part they're misused (i both have some myself as well as taught people studying to take them and others)
10:46 <Lucifer_arma> my source on that could be suspect, though
10:46 <Lucifer_arma> well I've seen certifications that carried some real weight.  I thought Jiffy Lube's internal certification program ws awesome, and I still think so.
10:46 <n54> I have no idea about the author
10:47 <Lucifer_arma> but then I worked alongside guys who were ASE-certified mechanics, had graduate certificates from technical schools, and I had to teach them righty-tighty-lefty-loosey
10:47 <Lucifer_arma> how the hell do you get through a technical school without turning a screw?
10:47 <n54> ok I have no knowledge of those at all
10:48 <Lucifer_arma> ASE is an automotive mechanic certification
10:48 <n54> by having the wrong curriculum, it's very common in a lot of different disciplines
10:48 <Lucifer_arma> it's a 25 question multiple choice test, but you have to have 2 years of hands-on work experience to take it
10:48 <n54> the right curriculum can matter more than having a good or bad teacher
10:49 <Lucifer_arma> the ACC program has you rebuild a junk car almost from scratch, but the ACC guys usually go to the dealerships.  I hear that's a very good automotive program and almost went into it myself some years ago.
10:49 <n54> well... look at the drowes that cram for a day just to take mcp's mcse's a-certifications, ccna etc. etc.
10:49 <Lucifer_arma> haha, don't get me started on MCSE point-and-click server administration
10:50 <Lucifer_arma> I hear redhat's certification is noteworthy, but haven't personally experienced it
10:50 <n54> well you know if people actually do what they're supposed to then it's not just point-and-click, that's why I singled out those who just cram answers
10:51 <n54> it applies to rehadt and lcp and whatnot, no difference (well except cisco in part)
10:51 <n54> cisco actually had a pretty nice setup
10:51 <Lucifer_arma> I'm reminded of the kid in my trig class who asked how easy the tests were.  :)  I told him "If you study the material and learn it, all tests are easy"
10:51 <Lucifer_arma> he was pissed at me for that, haha.
10:51 <n54> <-- cisco-authorized ccna instructor (but that was years ago)
10:51 <n54> hehe :)
10:52 <Lucifer_arma> <-- AAMsomethingorother certified :)
10:52 <n54> :)
10:52 <Lucifer_arma> only certification I ever got was mobile air conditioning (besides Jiffy Lube's internal certifications)
10:52 <n54> but you've used it afterwards I bet - I haven't :(
10:53 <Lucifer_arma> it's a lifetime certification, if I dig up the card I can buy freon (in the county, city has additional certifications)
10:53 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, I did actually.  Paid quite a few bills doing A/C work in texas
10:54 <n54> it's A/C as in electricity or?
10:54 <Lucifer_arma> Air Conditioning
10:54 <n54> oh
10:54 <Lucifer_arma> maybe the acronym is imaap or something like that
10:54 <n54> no idea
10:54 <Lucifer_arma> the certification includes refrigerators and stuff, mobile air conditioning
10:55 <n54> explains the freon :)
10:55 <Lucifer_arma> stuff you'd expect to see the r-12 or r-134a in.  Houses and buildings in general use r-22, which is a different certification
10:55 <n54> btw hi to madmax too :) (almost didn't see you)
10:55 <Lucifer_arma> haha, and it's one of those "I won't pollute the atmosphere or deplete the ozone layer" tests.  More conditioning than competence.
10:56 <madmax|pt> lol
10:56 <madmax|pt> hi n54
10:56  * Lucifer_arma had a hard time being proud of getting that one, but it was a quarter raise at the time and the company paid the test fee
10:56 <n54> ok
10:56 <n54> :)
10:57 -!- joda_bot [n=anonymou@dslb-084-061-034-132.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #armagetron
10:57 <n54> hi joda
10:57 <joda_bot> hi n54
10:57 <joda_bot> oh fun fun fun ;)
10:57 <madmax|pt> hello joda
10:57 <joda_bot> just back from the doctors for the 3rd time today
10:58 <SuPeRTaRD> virus?
10:58 <SuPeRTaRD> ;p
10:58 <GodTodd> blergle
10:59 <joda_bot> Ampicillin and amoxicillin should also be avoided, since they cause an allergic-like rash in 90% of mono patients. This rash may then be incorrectly diagnosed as an allergic reaction to penicillin.
10:59 <joda_bot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_mononucleosis
10:59 <n54> blergle bllok GodTodd
10:59 <joda_bot> The fun of a virus .... need an anti virus update ;)
11:00 <n54> ouch well
11:00 <n54> it's not that uncommon :)
11:01 <joda_bot> Yeah, but they treated it with anti biotics ;)
11:01 <joda_bot> which does not look nice ;)
11:01 <n54> yeah
11:01 <n54> so... got it from you gf or something like that? 
11:02 <joda_bot> guess so yes
11:11 <Lucifer_arma> joda_bot: did you forget to run Norton Update?
11:11 <joda_bot> Lucifer_arma: guess I lost my wifi connection some time ago :-P
11:12 <Lucifer_arma> haha.  had to make the connection with a regular cable, eh?
11:12 <joda_bot> I'm plugged in now... found a free port next to my pc ,)
11:13 <Lucifer_arma> so that's where you've been, eh?  network problems?
11:13 <Lucifer_arma> so when's your girlfriend gonna come live with you?
11:15 <Lucifer_arma> mmmm.  eggs over-easy.  My wife needs to buy bacon more often, it's the only way to do the eggs justice.
11:16 <GodTodd> we always have roughly a whole pig in the freezer heh
11:16 <Lucifer_arma> #g 728/907
11:16 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 728 / 907 = 0.802646086
11:17 <Lucifer_arma> yay!  I'm out of the 70s!
11:17 <Lucifer_arma> been building for about 27 hours now
11:17 <joda_bot> ?
11:18 <Lucifer_arma> http://forums.armagetronad.net/viewtopic.php?t=3511   <--- you've seen this, joda?
11:19 <n54> lol GodTodd that's a lot of bacon :)
11:19 <Lucifer_arma> ?  GodTodd's a known cop-killer
11:20 <Lucifer_arma> joda_bot: so, I'm building the desktop target of the t2 system in that thread, having thrown out ROCK because t2 is technologically superior
11:20 <n54> hmm deleting artwork (the link) shouldn't be neccessary, just sign them instead
11:21 <n54> although I don't see a point in trying to make it _that_ exclusive anyhow
11:21 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, but you know, it just seems like something isn't special edition unless the materials are destroyed after producing it
11:21 <Lucifer_arma> kinda like the Atlas rockets
11:21 <n54> I disagree :)
11:22 <n54> it's special because you want it, not because of what it is
11:22 <Lucifer_arma> well, I could be convinced not to destroy it, as long as there's a mechanism to ensure that copies can't be remade
11:22 <n54> why not make copies if people want them even for old editions?
11:22 <Lucifer_arma> and signing it and then throwing away the keys used to sign it are a good way to do that
11:22 <n54> anyway it seems like a non-isssue to me :)
11:23 <Lucifer_arma> well, the thing about the signing solution is that we could make copies that look and feel the same, but wouldn't be part of the series
11:23 <n54> you know you want to sell them for something like 10-20 bucks tight? not 100 ;)
11:23 <n54> right*
11:24 <GodTodd> hey...i only killed one cop and he was asking for it :P
11:25 <Lucifer_arma> hey, it was your idea!
11:25 <Lucifer_arma> erm, that was to n54
11:25 <n54> and set up the structure for what is approved use of the money beforehand - why? - because it's the hard part, the really really hard part
11:26 <n54> not so much of an idea as an alternative that I realized would be sort of pointless :9
11:26 <joda_bot> ah, about the ROCK cd ?
11:26 <n54> umm no that part was Luci (although it has been discussed way back)
11:26 <Lucifer_arma> heh.  there's a structure, sorta, for how to spend money.  That was setup when the paypal stuff was setup.
11:26 <joda_bot> What do you want to get rid of ? The files used to build the CD ?
11:27 <Lucifer_arma> yeah.  If it's a special edition CD, where the custom bang-up artwork is what makes it special edition, then it seems like we should delete said special artwork after the CD is made
11:27 <n54> ok, then nail it down so that people supporting feel they know what they're donating too - flimsiness there will/can only make people suspicious or somthing like that
11:27 <Lucifer_arma> you know, put it out for 3-6 months or so
11:28 <n54> no my idea was to have it exclusive on cd for only a short period of time like obsd does 
11:28 <n54> then release it for free (it's GPL after all)
11:28 <n54> (we not obsd of course) ;)
11:28 <n54> we,*
11:29 <GodTodd> do it like disney....put out the special edition for a short time then lock it away for an extended period (relatively) then re-release it as like an anniversary edition ;)
11:29 <n54> a way for people to donate where they feel they get a little extra; a prerelease cd with nice artwork and a few stickers
11:29 <n54> hehe
11:30 <n54> and of course the artwork would have to be a cc-license (probably the easiest)
11:31 <n54> but all this requires a lot more availability of theming armagetron in the first place so as to attract skinners and modellers and so on... so it might be a bit too early to think of?
11:33 <n54> and once you have this the availability of possible t-shirt designs is likely to blossom as well
11:33 <joda_bot> So a problem I see, (given server based theme support) - What happens if someone uses a art theme for his/her server
11:33 <joda_bot> and the ppl download the art theme
11:33 <n54> good point I've been halfway thinking about that myself
11:34 <joda_bot> If we don't want to sue or control the distribution all the time... we just should aim for initial buying 
11:34 -!- [NP]Tangent [n=hyperdev@71-212-171-217.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #armagetron
11:34 <n54> since it's GPL in the first place I don't think it would be right to restrict it
11:34 <joda_bot> e.g. let ppl pay for getting a copy in their region and allow non internet based copying
11:34 <joda_bot> well, and theme use for a server
11:34 <n54> we should aim for feel-good awesome "I play Armagetron" community flavour :)
11:34 <joda_bot> (this won't deliver all art work to all clients)
11:35 <n54> I doubt there's any point controlling it - it's just an incentive to show off and make people support
11:35 <joda_bot> It makes recruiting artists more difficult though
11:36 <n54> however.... the way I was thinking it would be a pre-realease of not just artwork but the "new version" as well
11:36 <n54> so that removes part of the server issue - or easily could
11:36 <n54> it would mean having that version not available at cvs or similar before a given date however
11:37 <joda_bot> n54: this does not make sense, as the verion will tend to be less final / fixed than later releases
11:37 <n54> so... it's a big discussion really
11:37 <n54> what do you mean less?
11:37 <joda_bot> any version which is stable will be released ;)
11:38 <joda_bot> does not make sense to / is not possible to hold back the new versions for a long time, as it's GPL after all
11:38 <n54> ah ok I think I see your point but the same holds true for obsd cd's etc. you're probably looking at this the wrong way: the idea is _not_ to force people in any way to pay, it's just an encouragement and pr
11:38 <joda_bot> well, you can make something like sveasoft
11:39 <joda_bot> but I don't really like charging for GPL products
11:39 <n54> for obsd (BSD-license) they wait about a month afaik
11:39 <n54> nothing wrong charging but one has to realease the code to the buyer (it has to be on the cd as source)
11:39 <n54> release*
11:39 <joda_bot> Paying for art packs and being allowed to redistribute them, and to modify them with authors permission sounds ok to me
11:40 <n54> and they're free to share it of course but that's not the point, the point is to give them something extra
11:40  * n54 guesses to few here are familiar with obsd for me to manage to explain the concept of what they do easily
11:40 <joda_bot> n54: iceman's secret wall hack ;)
11:40 <n54> no please not :)
11:41 <n54> btw that has to be gpl too
11:41 <n54> if distributed in any way
11:41 <joda_bot> yeah, but it's a fork of the armagetronad project and thus the GPL source is only on the CD ;)
11:41 <n54> (which it has already been afaik)
11:41 <joda_bot> hm... remove server camera restrictions :-P
11:41 <n54> stop thinking money
11:42 <n54> think joy :)
11:42 <joda_bot> Then it's large set of maps and art work ... perhaps single player maps for armagetron ;)
11:42 <Lucifer_arma> slow down.  we're not talking about holding anything back.  If you're reading Luke-Jr's post, disregard it.  No way that'll go over.
11:43 <Lucifer_arma> what we're talking about is custom artwork for CDs that are made available for purchase to pay project expenses
11:43 <n54> 1. for money pure donations will alway be more profitable for the project 2. the cd & all that will increase visibility etc. and make people want to support that way too once in a while
11:43 <joda_bot> Lucifer_arma: under what license ? (artwork?)
11:43 <Lucifer_arma> otherwise, it's stuff like on the CD
11:43 <Lucifer_arma> has to be gpl-compatible or we couldn't distribute it, right?
11:43 <Lucifer_arma> we're not even going to try to stop people from redistributing stuff, we don't work that way, never have and never will.
11:43 <n54> gpl & cc (some of them) are compatible afaik
11:44 <n54> rms does not really support gpl use for non-code
11:44 <joda_bot> n54: even restricted art work would be compatible AFAIK
11:44 <Lucifer_arma> no, he doesn't, but most open source games use it.  If it's part of the program, that is.
11:44 <n54> he hates cc though but I like cc - should be the creators decision as long as it's compatible (ref. wikimedia)
11:44 <Lucifer_arma> no, because you have to be able to redistribute the whole thing.
11:44 <joda_bot> n54: just makes it a pain to work with the licenses
11:45  * n54 would not gpl artwork
11:45 <Lucifer_arma> I'd just as soon take art as GPL and not worry about it.  we had this talk in Crimson Fields several years ago, and just taking it as gpl was the best solution.
11:45 <n54> it's not difficult (once again ref. wikimedia)
11:45 <Lucifer_arma> look, don't GPL the poster you drew or the song you recorded for your album, right?
11:46 <Lucifer_arma> *this* artwork is part of the game and doesn't live outside the game.  And the author is free to release it under a different license separately, right?
11:46 <joda_bot> perhaps we should let the artists decide about the license, and include a flag which use is allowed ?
11:46 <n54> it will live outside the game, people would of course reuse parts as they see fit
11:46 <joda_bot> e.g. server based theme ok ? client side use only ?
11:46 <Lucifer_arma> doesn't matter, because as long as it comes in gpl-compatible, and looks really sweet, we'll use it
11:46 <n54> that's what I'm saying joda (ref. eikimedia - any one of you seen the details there? it's not hard)
11:46 <n54> wiki*
11:47 <Lucifer_arma> I'd be happy to include a link or an alternate license.  I'd prefer GPL for it next to the game, but there's nothing that says it can't have another license that someone who receives the CD can elect *for the artwork*
11:47 <joda_bot> This model might even allow for disney releasing a commerical movie pack for armagetron ?
11:47 <n54> as long as the license is compatible
11:47 <n54> i.e. "free as in libre"
11:48 <Lucifer_arma> as far as I know, yeah, the license has to be compatible.  It's an interesting question whether or not disney's moviepack constitutes a derivative work
11:48 <n54> a derivative work of a derivative work inspired by the original which they happen to own? :D
11:48 <n54> *had to say that* fun :)
11:48 <Lucifer_arma> anyway, livecd is a ways off, and as far as I'm concerned, the iso images should be availble for free download.  A person shouldn't have to buy the CD to get the CD, so to speak.
11:49 <joda_bot> I was really talking about utopia... that disney themselv would release a commerical addon artpack for armagetron
11:49 <n54> agreed Lucifer, it doesn't _have_ to be a pre-release
11:49 <joda_bot> Lucifer_arma: ok that, would kill that option ... I'd say let the artists decide
11:49 <joda_bot> If they prefer to restrict the CDs use, we can do it that way or the other
11:49 <Lucifer_arma> so buying the CD is something you do because you want a print CD and you want to give some money to the project to help them out
11:49 <joda_bot> Because you need good artists / maps for the CD to work at all ?
11:49 <n54> and you want stickers of course! ^^
11:50 <Lucifer_arma> I'm not personally inclined to accept artwork that would restrict the CDs use
11:50 <n54> or a t-shirt :)
11:50 <n54> yes you need good artists
11:50 <n54> agreed Lucifer that's a no-go
11:50 <n54> must have compatible license
11:50 <joda_bot> Lucifer_arma: I'd atleast start to collect art submissions while letting artists choose a license
11:50 <joda_bot> The art can then still be omitted
11:50 <Lucifer_arma> simple enough, if artists aren't willing to share and share alike, they need to play a different game.  I don't see why I should put out my own code for free without any strings attached (beyond the GPL) but some self-appointed "artiste" gets an automatic in to do whatever draconian thing he wants
11:51 <n54> look the only way to attract good artists is to let people use it in the game, that was my point earlier and we're some way from that at the moment - so no hurry :)
11:51 <Lucifer_arma> no, I won't accept it.  If the artist's license doesn't look, act, and smell like GPL, I don't want their artwork, they can go fuck themselves
11:51 <joda_bot> Lucifer_arma: I do it as we do it with code too, try to allow for all tastes
11:51 <Lucifer_arma> we only take code that's GPL, so I'm fine with that
11:51 <joda_bot> It's still a player's choice to use commerical or non commerical stuff
11:52 <n54> must me gpl-compatible that part is not up for any discussion imho
11:52 <n54> be*
11:52 <n54> if they want to do something else it's completely a private undertaking on their part and not "affiliated" imo
11:52 <Lucifer_arma> right.  they'll make their own special CD or whatever
11:52 <n54> yup
11:53 <Lucifer_arma> host it on their own website, whatever.  That's their choice.
11:53 <Lucifer_arma> but when we're talking about *our* CD that we're going to put out, they gotta play by the same rules any programmer has to play by
11:53  * n54 doesn't want to encourage it though, but that's just my personal opinon
11:53 <n54> yup
11:54 <n54> anyway. it's a topic that can simmer a few years probaly ^^ no rush
11:54  * Lucifer_arma is pretty sick of the idea that "artists" get a free "fuck you over" card just by being "artistic"
11:54 <n54> and one can do the cd stuff without any art and such to begin with
11:54 <Lucifer_arma> yes, precisely.
11:54 <n54> they get to be fucked over for free? :)
11:54 <joda_bot> Lucifer_arma: Ever heard about portable apps ?
11:55 <joda_bot> http://portableapps.com/
11:55 <Lucifer_arma> portable apps?  'splain.  that's a phrase-ology I'm not familiar with
11:55 <joda_bot> It's a concept for USB usuable applicaitons
11:55 <n54> something like klik?
11:55 <joda_bot> they store all their data in their own directories
11:55 <n54> ah same as klik :)
11:55 <joda_bot> No idea about klik
11:55 <n54> same idea :)
11:56 <n54> there's like a dozen of different projects doing the same afaik hehe all the rage these days :)
11:56 <n54> still it _is_ nice
11:56 <Lucifer_arma> that is interesting
11:57 <n54> perfect for use/installing when using a live-cd
11:57 <Lucifer_arma> armagetron will probably work like that with very little modification.  We already did the binary relocatable thing, after all, for the autopackage
11:57 <n54> <-- uses a live-cd right now (the hd is rotten and sounds like a dying robot)
11:58 <joda_bot> n54: it can be included on the cd, but the cd won't be writable so it's not portable app compatible ;)
11:58 <n54> yes klik has to be on writeable media too
11:58 <n54> usb/hd/sc or possibly even floppy if it's tiny enough)
11:59 <n54> btw http://klik.atekon.de/
12:01 <n54> but klik-lilkes and live-cd are for different uses imo (in relation to armagrton that is)
12:01 <n54> armagetron*
12:01 <Lucifer_arma> hello?
12:01 <n54> hi :P
12:01 <n54> :)
12:01 <Lucifer_arma> you guys getting me?
12:01 <n54> I am
12:02 <Lucifer_arma> ok.  my whole network just flickered, lost yahoo, websites ot responding, freenode not responding for 2 minutes
12:02 <n54> oh... you didn't see us either?
12:02 <Lucifer_arma> no
12:02 <n54> check that swap again? (cat /procs/swap)
12:03 <Lucifer_arma> did
12:03 <Lucifer_arma> you didn't lose armabot?  probably something on my laptop then
12:03 <n54> yup
12:03 <Lucifer_arma> #g 735/907
12:03 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 735 / 907 = 0.810363837
12:03 <n54> you can try armabot chatlog?
12:04 <Lucifer_arma> I could, not sure I missed much.  Just more klick talk?
12:05 <n54> btw thank you for the link joda, I will take a look at it later
12:05 <n54> yeah and a link
12:06 <n54> I was thinking to make sure armabot didn't have the same problem (none of you dropped)
12:07 <Lucifer_arma> I saw the link.  Maybe I got everything
12:08 <n54> the klik link? if so ok
12:08 <n54> (not the portable link)
12:09  * n54 has been hyper for something like 20 minutes - weird day today
12:14  * Lucifer_arma is also having a Real Work conversation in another window, pardon his latency
12:14 <n54> no problem I'm busy jumping up and down ^^
12:15 <Lucifer_arma> wow.  we should argue about IRaq more.  Maybe there's a cure for ME somewhere in political debates...
12:15 <n54> nope
12:16 <Lucifer_arma> awww man, I get excited that it's screaming along, and then it hits another big package.  Building KOffice now.
12:16 <Lucifer_arma> on the bright side, it looks like t2 is easier to customize targets than rock
12:16  * n54 is sick and tired of arguing about Iraq (most people only argue about Bush though)
12:16 <n54> nice
12:16 <Lucifer_arma> which is good, rock was a pain
12:17 <n54> so... those you contacted about writing up on rock will be ok with you writing up on t2 instead?
12:19 <n54> (btw being hyper is no cure for ME either)
12:19 -!- [NP]Tangent [n=hyperdev@71-212-171-217.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
12:20 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, they will.  They'd be pissed if I wrote on rock without having done my research to find t2, and they'd be pissed if, after doing my research, I still wrote on rock, the technologically inferior product
12:21 <n54> ok
12:21 <n54> that's good then ^^
12:22 <Lucifer_arma> I am instant messaging with a guy who talks just like 2020
12:22 <Lucifer_arma> maybe he is 2020
12:23 <n54> like 2020 but on "chat"? Xo
12:23 <n54> that would make
12:23 <n54> for a very hard and
12:23 <n54> frustrating
12:23 <n54> conversation wouldn't
12:23 <n54> it?
12:23 -!- madmax|pt [n=madmax@bl4-184-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving"]
12:26 <Lucifer_arma>  /ignore n54 :)
12:27 <n54> hehe
12:57  * Lucifer_arma came [   ] this close to asking him if he was scottish
12:58  * n54 didn't know 2020 was from scotland
12:58  * Lucifer_arma knows where everyone's from.
12:58 <Lucifer_arma> go ahead, test me
12:58 <n54> hmm
12:59 <n54> where's commie from? ^^ (might be easy might be hard)
12:59 <Lucifer_arma> china
12:59 <n54> ok so you knew that :)
12:59 <Lucifer_arma> I'm not doing cities
12:59 <Lucifer_arma> brain is from taiwan
12:59 <Lucifer_arma> er, crimson guy.  heh.
12:59 <n54> never met
12:59 <Lucifer_arma> he's a crimson fields contributor.  :)
13:00 <n54> ok
13:00 <Lucifer_arma> give me a hard one this time.  :)
13:00 <n54> well people you don't know would be unfair
13:00 <n54> like perhaps WarMonkey?
13:00 <Lucifer_arma> american.  hmmmm, california, right?
13:00 <n54> no :)
13:01 <Lucifer_arma> heh.  ok, where?
13:01  * Lucifer_arma played a lot with him, he doesn't talk much.
13:01 <n54> alaska
13:01 <n54> iirc (long time since he said anything about it)
13:01 <n54> freewheeling55 then? (might be easy again)
13:01 <Lucifer_arma> canada
13:01 <Lucifer_arma> toronto, iirc
13:02 <n54> somewhere in bc not sure where
13:02 <n54> <-- bad ram
13:02 <Lucifer_arma> he talks about toronto a lot, I just assumed he lived there
13:02 <n54> might be
13:03 <Lucifer_arma> I knew he was canadian though, he brags about weed laws being different :)
13:03 <n54> lol
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13:03 <n54> betsy I'm sure you know
13:04 <Lucifer_arma> actually I don't know betsy.  Unless she has a different name, but people talk about wanting her to come back every now and then.
13:04 <Lucifer_arma> I don't think I've ever played with her, though.
13:04 <n54> oh ok, well she was interesting in a way
13:04 <n54> locknessmonster? (now I'm getting really obscure)
13:05 <n54> husband of zelda iirc
13:05 <Lucifer_arma> you're getting to people who haven't played since before the fork, heh
13:05 <Lucifer_arma> ok, I showed up when the fork happened, during one of your hiatuses
13:05 <n54> nah :)
13:06 <Lucifer_arma> I'd guess locknessmonster as scottish and would probably be wrong, though
13:06 <n54> heh which fork are you talking about? when armagetronad was formed? you must be talking of a later one?
13:06 <Lucifer_arma> when armagetronad was formed, it was technically a fork.  :)
13:06 <Lucifer_arma> I didn't show up at the fork, though, but right after was released.
13:06 <n54> well umm I was here then but you weren't ;)
13:07 <Lucifer_arma> I didn't come to the forums right away either.
13:07 <n54> yeah took you a year or something?
13:08 <Lucifer_arma> couple of months, I think, not a year though
13:08 <n54> doesn't matter too much
13:08 <Lucifer_arma> I had my clone of eggcozy's server up that same summer, at the end of that summer, and was on the forums for that
13:08 <n54> yeah but that's just a few years ago isn't it?
13:09 <n54> I remember it
13:09 <Lucifer_arma> actually, for unrelated reasons, I remember the time period very well.  I started in July, early July, and my server was up sometime in september
13:10 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, couple of years ago
13:10 <n54> did you ever play at the real armagoshdarn?
13:10 <Lucifer_arma> In november, still the same year, I registered for school
13:10 <Lucifer_arma> no, it went down a few months before I showed up
13:10 <n54> (not -ish)
13:10 <Lucifer_arma> I play ish's server
13:10 <Lucifer_arma> *played
13:10 <n54> heh ok, you know I had 1000+ victories as nr.1 there? ;)
13:11 <Lucifer_arma> ironically, I preferred that server to eggcozy's, but a weird bug that wasn't fixed until 0.2.8 afaik caused my client to fail to ping ish's server
13:11 <Lucifer_arma> so I played eggcozy's instead
13:11 <n54> not armagoshdarnish but armagoshdarn
13:11 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, locutus has the last stat files on his website
13:11 <n54> ah yeah that's true
13:12 <n54> those 1000+ took at least a year iirc, probably more like one and a half going on two
13:12 <Lucifer_arma> heh, among my first posts on the forums, I placed my entry in sabarai's "draw my new avatar" contest.  It was his picture with the head tipped open and a genie comin out of his neck,
13:12 <Lucifer_arma> pissing in his mouth
13:12 <Lucifer_arma> I'm sure I made quite an impression.  :)
13:13 <n54> I must have missed that one
13:13 <Lucifer_arma> I'll bet if I linked it again now people would just laugh it off
13:14  * Lucifer_arma wonders if he even has it laying around
13:17 <n54> when I began playing I used my full name (noderunner n54), but I can't remember the name of the german server... *tries to remember*
13:19 <n54> perhaps it was nixda
13:20 <Lucifer_arma> nixda is an ancient server, I hear.
13:21 <n54> yeah it
13:21 <n54> yeah it has been around forever it seems
13:21 <Lucifer_arma> I played a little back in 2001, before there was a master server.
13:21 <n54> very different gamplay from armagoshdarn back then at least
13:21 <Lucifer_arma> but I did my switch to Linux right afterwards, and it was quite awhile before I had the nvidia drivers installed, so I didn't play again until then.
13:22 <Lucifer_arma> I remember it was an awesome game, lag was really bad, and I hated windows.  :)
13:22 <n54> :)
13:22 <Lucifer_arma> I probably would have played it straight through to now if I'd have gotten the nvidia drivers installed right away, though.
13:22 <n54> hmm most people need breaks :)
13:23 <Lucifer_arma> do they?
13:23 <n54> or perhaps need is the wrong word, want
13:23 <Lucifer_arma> ah, right.  want.
13:23 <n54> might depend on how much one plays
13:23 <Lucifer_arma> I think I'm managing about three hours a week right now.
13:23 <n54> hehe yeah but you're busy
13:24 <n54> school and family and so on
13:24 <Lucifer_arma> well, yeah.  take out school and family and I'd probably play whenever I wasn't working.
13:24 <n54> yeah that explains it, then you'ld have a burnout too ;)
13:25 <Lucifer_arma> heh.  I've had periods of intense play.
13:25 <Lucifer_arma> I don't know, I guess it's just one of those things that balances itself for me.
13:25 <n54> yup
13:25 <n54> and that's good :)
13:26 <Lucifer_arma> probably helps that I'm watching my neighbor's marriage deteriorate in part because the husband just plays worlds of warcraft all the time, never does anything else.
13:26 <n54> :S
13:26 <n54> it's trange but wow doesn't seem remotely tempting to me
13:27 <Lucifer_arma> I couldn't be less interested in that game, to be honest
13:27 <Lucifer_arma> sure, if I was still 16 with nothing to do, I'd probably love it.
13:27 <Lucifer_arma> one of the reasons I like armagetron so much is because I can play it for whatever length of time I want, be it 5 minutes or 5 hours, and it's fun for the whole time.
13:28 <n54> I liked warcraft2 but 3 was a letdown for me and wow I've just ignored
13:28 <n54> yes absolutely agree, armagetron is very nice that way
13:28 <Lucifer_arma> not many games are like that.  :)
13:28 <n54> all ways actually imo
13:28 <n54> true
13:29 <Lucifer_arma> and to be honest, if it weren't for the internet play, armagetron wouldn't be like that at all, it'd be a 10 minute timekiller
13:29 <n54> yup
13:29 <n54> although i think that might change, sp has potential too with the stuff you guys are doing
13:30 <Lucifer_arma> haha.  You know why I'm so interested in improving single player mode?
13:30 <n54> nope
13:30 <Lucifer_arma> my school doesn't have wireless internet!
13:30 <n54> :)
13:30 <Lucifer_arma> So during those 5-10 minutes before the teacher shows up, I've got nothing to do and a booted computer sitting in front of me
13:32 <Lucifer_arma> of course, I found some nice tactics that work very well and consistently against the AIs
13:32 <Lucifer_arma> then I found that those same tactics are good blocking tactics over on fortress
13:32 <n54> have you fooled around with ai's?
13:32 <n54> with the*
13:32 <Lucifer_arma> no, I admit I haven't, but I'd really like to
13:32 <n54> changing their setting I mean
13:32 <Lucifer_arma> oh yeah, done that.
13:32 <n54> it's a breeze
13:32 <n54> ah ok
13:32 <Lucifer_arma> I used to have the server that was fun even with the AIs.  :)
13:33  * n54 has his ai's named by the setting combo
13:33 <Lucifer_arma> heh
13:33  * Lucifer_arma names his AIs after sins in the bible
13:33 <n54> makes for very "computer-like" names :)
13:33 <Lucifer_arma> of course, now that I'm moving away from the hell-themed server, I'll probably look for new ai names
13:34 <Lucifer_arma> which reminds me, I need to hurry up and finish this server upgrade so I can get my game server back up.
13:34 <n54> :)
13:34 <Lucifer_arma> I think I'll run it under an alias for a little while
13:34 <Lucifer_arma> why the hell does koffice take so long to build?
13:35 <n54> old 80ies x-files on tv *might be distracted*
13:35 <n54> no idea never built it (or used it)
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13:35 <Lucifer_arma> #g 735/907
13:35 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 735 / 907 = 0.810363837
13:36 <Lucifer_arma> I don't need koffice
13:36 <Lucifer_arma> ok, killed the koffice build
13:39 <n54> :)
13:39 <Lucifer_arma> aha, I was doing the math wrong
13:39 <Lucifer_arma> #g (735+9)/907
13:39 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: (735 + 9) / 907 = 0.820286659
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14:16 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: if i disappear i usually use trhe /away command
14:17 <wrtlprnft> uh, but did i miss anything?
14:17 <wrtlprnft> i tape philippeqc's problems disappeared
14:18 <n54> yeah afaik they did
14:19 <wrtlprnft> s/tape/take
14:19 <n54> :)
14:31 <Lucifer_arma> we need a configure check for distcc now
14:37 <wrtlprnft> philippeqc: don't make cValue::Base a template class...
14:40 <wrtlprnft> philippeqc: if you do you won't have one pointer type that can point to all kinds of tValue objects
14:41 <wrtlprnft> except void*, that is, but you don't want that
15:16 <Lucifer_arma> #g (741+12)/907
15:16 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: (741 + 12) / 907 = 0.830209482
16:07 <Lucifer_arma> #g (744+14)/907
16:07 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: (744 + 14) / 907 = 0.835722161
16:15 <Luke-Jr> joda_bot: Sveasoft's practices are illegal
16:16 <Luke-Jr> joda_bot: Nothing wrong with charging for GPL'd software-- in fact, FSF encourages it
16:26 <joda_bot> Luke-Jr: their pratises HAVE been illegal
16:26 <joda_bot> Luke-Jr: AFAIK they are legal now
16:26 <Luke-Jr> joda_bot: are they?
16:26 <Luke-Jr> when did that change?
16:27 <joda_bot> They corrected their distribution methods.. but there is a lot of misinformation around so I might be wrong
16:28 <joda_bot> I just know that there are more non-"free" releases
16:28 <Luke-Jr> so I can sign up, download the bleeding edge Talisman (or whatever it is now) and source, and publish them on my webpage, and still be a member?
16:28 <wrtlprnft> wow, my spam filter got really good... I just checked on my last week's mail and all of it got sorted correctly :)
16:28 <joda_bot> They don't open their beta to public afaik
16:28 <wrtlprnft> (just offtopic)
16:28 <joda_bot> Luke-Jr: no I guess that's not possible
16:28 <Luke-Jr> then they're in violation
16:28 <joda_bot> But many open source companies accepted their interpretation
16:28 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: I don't even worry about mine anymore =p
16:29 <wrtlprnft> well, once in a while i do a sanity check
16:29 <wrtlprnft> to see if it didn't sort out a whole bunch of non- spam mails
16:29 <Luke-Jr> too much spam for me to do that now
16:30 <wrtlprnft> well, i just check the titles
16:30 <wrtlprnft> 2789 spam mails since 2001 :o
16:30 <Luke-Jr> joda_bot: anyway, I do think the 'sell bleeding edge experimental releases' method would work well
16:31 <Luke-Jr> too bad nobody else seems interested in trying it
16:31 <joda_bot> Luke-Jr: http://www.sveasoft.com/modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3868
16:31 <Luke-Jr> (obviously, nothing would tie us to continue it if it turned out lame)
16:31 <joda_bot> If you're interested in it, perhaps you should put in some effort yourself ? ;)
16:31 <joda_bot> if you volunteer to build the releases, I guess no one minds to discuss how to give it a try
16:32 <joda_bot> but if you propose it and it's more work for z-man I can understand that he is not happy
16:33 <wrtlprnft> all things i saw Luke-Jr propose yet were more work for somebody else than him
16:33 <Luke-Jr> joda_bot: it would require cooperation from the whole team
16:33 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: not really; the release process mostly stays the same, except for the people who do the actual sales
16:33 <Luke-Jr> I'd certainly be willing to do my part there
16:34 <Luke-Jr> releases are built the same regardless of distribution
16:34 <joda_bot> lol, Luke-Jr but you're proposing more build work or atleast delayed releases for the public and I don't like the idea of that
16:34 <Luke-Jr> no more build work
16:35 <Luke-Jr> and the public has the option to buy the release
16:35 <Luke-Jr> the only additional work needed would be 1) artwork and 2) sales/distribution
16:35 -!- z-man-home [n=manuel@p50873D8B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #armagetron
16:36 <z-man-home> aww, crap, forgot to rename z-man-work
16:36 <Luke-Jr> hehe
16:36 <wrtlprnft> lol
16:36 <z-man-home> wait, shouldn't there be some dcop thing I could use?
16:36 <Luke-Jr> yes
16:36 <wrtlprnft> if z-man-home is z-man at home and z-man-work is z-man at work, where is z-man then?
16:37 <z-man-home> well, wherever I am, usually
16:37 <wrtlprnft> mars?
16:37 <z-man-home> unless I forget to rename the one where I'm not going to be soon from now
16:37 <Luke-Jr> so anyway, I don't see why the objection to at least *trying* the sell-bleeding-edge-experimentals scheme
16:37 <joda_bot> wrtlprnft: z-man driving home ;)
16:37 <wrtlprnft> haha
16:37 <wrtlprnft> don't drive and chat
16:38 <z-man-home> Luke-Jr: because people get pissed if you sell them buggy software?
16:39 <Luke-Jr> z-man-home: experimental releases are supposed to get some testing
16:39 <wrtlprnft> well, they would know the software is buggy
16:39 <wrtlprnft> and they'd buy the artwork
16:39 <z-man-home> So you think they'd willingly buy software they know is buggy?
16:40 <z-man-home> We'd need a marketing department :)
16:40 <wrtlprnft> COULD be buggy
16:40 -!- Vanhayes [n=vanhayes@stjhnbsu84w-156034190032.nb.aliant.net] has joined #armagetron
16:40 <Luke-Jr> it wouldn't be too buggy, I'd hope
16:40 <wrtlprnft> uh
16:40 <wrtlprnft> CVS HEAD segfaults every time you quit for me
16:40 <wrtlprnft> that's not buggy?
16:40 <z-man-home> If it doesn't get tested by regular, non-buying users, it will be buggy, you can rely on that.
16:40 <joda_bot> ArmagetronAd XP ;)
16:40 <z-man-home> joda_bot: :)
16:40 <wrtlprnft> ArmagetronAd Vista!
16:40 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: HEAD isn't a release
16:41 <z-man-home> Or Armagetron Revolution (codename) later renamed to Armagetron Wii!
16:41 <Luke-Jr> z-man-home: that depends on the number of users buying, which I expect *might* be more than the number downloading
16:41 <Luke-Jr> the number dling otherwise*
16:41 <wrtlprnft> uh
16:41 <z-man-home> but once they bought it, it's too late to fix the bugs :)
16:42 <Luke-Jr> how so?
16:42 <wrtlprnft> MORE people will buy than download=!
16:42 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: remember, most people will be downloading stable
16:42 <z-man-home> because the bugs are then already on the CD people have
16:42 <Luke-Jr> z-man-home: any bugs would already be on the download they have with gratis releases
16:43 <Luke-Jr> anyway, we would still do minimal testing to be sure it's playable =p
16:43 <z-man-home> Yes, but that's gratis
16:43 <Luke-Jr> if there's a bug that makes 0.3.0 unplayable on certain systems, we can always grant those users a 0.3.1 download
16:44 <Luke-Jr> maybe even a CD
16:44 <joda_bot> The only way I can see this stuff to work
16:44 <joda_bot> Let them buy preminum support
16:44 <joda_bot> ;)
16:44 <z-man-home> hehe
16:44 <joda_bot> And Luke provides it ... as long as he wants to
16:44 <wrtlprnft> so if we find 3 bugs, we send everyone 4 CDs?
16:44 -!- Lucifer_arma is now known as MarketingDepartm
16:44 <z-man-home> I simply see absolutely NO logic to selling experimental releases, yet giving out stable releases for free.
16:45 <joda_bot> Users: "I want this bug fixed", "I want to report bugs easily"
16:45 <wrtlprnft> hi MarketingDepartm :D
16:45 <MarketingDepartm> you don't sell buggy software if you want repeat business
16:45  * MarketingDepartm Lucifer_arma
16:45 <MarketingDepartm> haha
16:45 -!- MarketingDepartm is now known as Lucifer_arma
16:45 <joda_bot> I might just simply but that subscriptions and add my jobs to it ;)
16:45 <Lucifer_arma> in a previous incarnation, I did marketing
16:45 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: if it affects every user, we'd have caught it pre-shipping
16:45 <Lucifer_arma> so here we go, the marketing flunkie has arrived
16:45 <joda_bot> but = buy :-P
16:45 <wrtlprnft> so how do you find out which user is affected?
16:46 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: the ones that complain they can't play it
16:46 <Lucifer_arma> the only logic to selling buggy software goes like this:
16:46 <Lucifer_arma> 1.  You ship it alongside the stable version :)
16:46 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: remember, this is for bugs making the game *unplayable*
16:46 <Lucifer_arma> 2.  It's some sort of super "I get the latest development version" thing
16:46 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: we could easily fit stable, too
16:46 <Luke-Jr> point #2 is why I think we might get more sales than otherwise gratis downloads ;)
16:47 <Lucifer_arma> however, if you ship the development release for money, a release that's intended for bug fixing and development work by our large group of third party extenders,
16:47 <Lucifer_arma> people will expect it to perform like production-level software, which it is not
16:47 <Luke-Jr> maybe we could have a forum for users who purchased the game in the past year, and get higher-priority support too
16:47 <Lucifer_arma> when I say some sort of super "I get the latest development version" thing, I'm not talking about a software package
16:48 <Lucifer_arma> I'm talking about a system where they will *always* have the latest development version
16:48 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: experimental releases aren't for bug checking-- that's beta
16:48 <Lucifer_arma> that means some automated build system (which they already have free access to)
16:48 <wrtlprnft> what about putting ads in our stable releases and sell ad-free versions?
16:48 <wrtlprnft> like opera
16:48 <Lucifer_arma> so we don't fix bugs as we go?
16:48 <Lucifer_arma> huh?
16:48 <Luke-Jr> experimental are to get feature-incomplete builds out there to test *conceptual* flaws and such
16:48 <wrtlprnft> jk, of course
16:48 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: we fix bugs any time, but that's not the purpose of non-beta
16:48 <Lucifer_arma> you guys are letting the dollar signs cloud your vision
16:49 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: I'd hope so, nobody would like that =p
16:49 <Lucifer_arma> well we sure in the hell don't wait till beta to look for bugs
16:49 <wrtlprnft> I'm just lol about Luke-Jr's visions
16:49 <Lucifer_arma> I wont' bother digging out the thread, you can find it yourself, but one of the stated reasons for having a development series in the first place is for extended testing, to involve the community in testing
16:50 <Lucifer_arma> there are many stated reasons for having a development series, but that is probably one of the biggest reasons, if not the biggest reason
16:50 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: non-latest experimental would be gratis downloads either way
16:50 <z-man-home> Wait, isn't this another case of Luke-Jr arguing against the rest of the world?
16:50 <Lucifer_arma> and the simple fact is, people don't pay to be shit on.
16:50  * joda_bot is ashamed as z-man is the one fixing most bugs ;)
16:50 <Lucifer_arma> and paying for software that is known to contain bugs is being shit on
16:50 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: regardless of paid or gratis, experimental releases shouldn't have any major bugs
16:51 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, this is a case of luke arguing against the rest of the world
16:51 <Lucifer_arma> now then.
16:51 <wrtlprnft> it was actually my suggestion, but i meant it as a joke
16:51 <Lucifer_arma> I'm a go do some dishes and cut up the chicken.
16:51  * wrtlprnft notices his error and goes into a corner, ashamed
16:52 <wrtlprnft> o_O
16:52 <Luke-Jr> like I pointed out earlier, if it doesn't work we can always discontinue it
16:52 <wrtlprnft> i just read "and cut up the children"
16:52 <Luke-Jr> it's not like we're tied to any one distribution method
16:52 <wrtlprnft> darn sun, can't see too well
16:52 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: !!!
16:53  * Luke-Jr mental note not to let wrtlprnft around his kids
16:53 <wrtlprnft> don't have kids yet
16:53 <Luke-Jr> sure I do
16:53 <wrtlprnft> oh, your kids, ok
16:54 <wrtlprnft> next will be "... and put the chicken to bed"
16:55 <Luke-Jr> anyway, if someone could bring up a point as to why the sell-experimental wouldn't be worth trying, I'd go ahead and attempt to figure out a solution...
16:56  * wrtlprnft would release a detailed manual on how to compile CVS on windows
16:56 <wrtlprnft> like a cookbook
16:56  * wrtlprnft would put the artwork online since it would have to be GPL'd
16:56 <joda_bot> Luke-Jr: missing market ;)
16:56 <wrtlprnft> that's why it's not worth trying :P
16:57 <wrtlprnft> or, actually i should switch to SVN
16:57  * wrtlprnft would release a detailed manual on how to compile SVN HEAD on windows
16:57 <Luke-Jr> joda_bot: that can only be determined by trial
16:58 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: GPL doesn't mean it needs to be online
16:58 <joda_bot> Luke-Jr: no you can pay someone for it, or just use your brain ;)
16:58 <joda_bot> Luke-Jr: most are casual players, or kids
16:58 <wrtlprnft> Luke-Jr: no, but it means you can't prevent me from putting it online
16:58 -!- Gnorty [n=Gnorty@cpc1-cosh2-0-0-cust614.cos2.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["Leaving"]
16:58 -!- philippeqc [n=philippe@c83-250-130-90.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Leaving"]
16:59 <Luke-Jr> joda_bot: Kids don't have bills to pay
16:59 <Luke-Jr> wrtlprnft: nope, but usually that requires people to regret the purchase
16:59 <joda_bot> wrtlprnft: If you find a cross platform app that allows to work with cvs / svn and offers eclipse like Merge support ... contact me right away ;)
16:59 <Luke-Jr> (posting something online when the developers prefer otherwise)
17:00 <wrtlprnft> *when one deleloper prefers otherwise
17:00 <joda_bot> except eclipse of course ;)
17:00 <wrtlprnft> uh, no clue...
17:01 <wrtlprnft> maybe there will be a google dev system with ajax one day :P
17:20  * Lucifer_arma wonders why we should try doing something that has been tried quite a few times in the past and failed
17:21  * Lucifer_arma wonders why we (read: Luke-Jr) can't learn from other people's mistakes, and we (read: Luke-Jr) insist on making those same mistakes ourselves.
17:24 <wrtlprnft> because we (read: Luke-Jr) like making mistakes?
17:24 <wrtlprnft> because we (read: Luke-Jr) are a bit off reality?
17:29 <Lucifer_arma> tel you what, I'll post the big long post that describes our target audience, but I'm in the midst of cooking dinner right now
17:29 <Lucifer_arma> so it'll have to wait a little bit
17:33 <wrtlprnft> because we (read: Luke-Jr) think we (read: Luke-Jr) are better than everyone who tried that yet and just made a mistake elsewhere?
17:33  * wrtlprnft loves reading big long posts
17:34 <wrtlprnft> well, cya, i was /away all the time anyways
17:42 -!- z-man-home is now known as z-man-bed
17:42 -!- z-man [n=moos@l04.thp.uni-koeln.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
17:42 <z-man-bed> woot?
17:42 <z-man-bed> That's a lie!
17:43 <z-man-bed> my PC at work seems to have gone down.
17:43 <z-man-bed> Well, goodbye, CVS Test
17:44 <z-man-bed> Ah, no, just one of those network glitches
17:44 -!- z-man-bed is now known as z-man
17:44 <z-man> Better steal back my nickname while it lasts :)
17:45 <z-man> Well, now I'm really going to bed. I'll time out here.
17:47 <armabot> Random Fortune:  Disclaimer: "These opinions are my own, though for a small fee they be || yours too." || -- Dave Haynie
17:50 <Vanhayes> #fortune
17:50 <armabot> Random Fortune:  BOFH Excuse #173: || Recursive traversal of loopback mount points
17:51 <armabot> Random Fortune:  BOFH Excuse #332: || suboptimal routing experience
17:51 <Vanhayes> lol
17:52 <Vanhayes> better now
17:53 <Vanhayes> should have seen it before pings were 500 and up
17:54 <Vanhayes> hey spidey what IRC client do u use? Mirc?
17:54 <Vanhayes> lol o
17:55 <Vanhayes> know of any good free ones for windows?
17:56 <Lucifer_arma> #g (774+15)/907
17:56 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: (774 + 15) / 907 = 0.869900772
17:56 <Lucifer_arma> nearing 30 hours, I think :(
17:56 <Vanhayes> xchat is completly free?
17:57 <Vanhayes> ok thx this one is almost up 
17:58 <Vanhayes> mIRC is free trial
17:58 <Vanhayes> like 4 days left
17:58 <Vanhayes> dont wanna pay 20$
18:00 <Vanhayes> only 995 here...
18:01 <Vanhayes> third time its happened I think
18:01 <Vanhayes> i'm still on tho
18:02 <Vanhayes> heh
18:04 -!- Gnorty [n=Gnorty@cpc1-cosh2-0-0-cust614.cos2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #armagetron
18:05 <Vanhayes> brb gonna try xchat
18:05 -!- z-man [n=manuel@p50873D8B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
18:05 <Vanhayes> ypdates?
18:05 <Vanhayes> updates*
18:05 <Vanhayes> for what?
18:06 <Vanhayes> ok brb
18:06 -!- Vanhayes [n=vanhayes@stjhnbsu84w-156034190032.nb.aliant.net] has quit []
18:09 -!- Nazurath [n=Josh@stjhnbsu84w-156034190032.nb.aliant.net] has joined #armagetron
18:12 <Nazurath> what kind?
18:13 <Nazurath> xchat looks pretty good thx
18:14 <Nazurath> wondering why my name isnt Vanhayes tho...
18:15 <Nazurath> windows
18:15 <Nazurath> xp
18:15 <Nazurath> ?
18:16 <Nazurath> EXEC	The system cannot find the file specified.
18:16 -!- SD|away [i=tribe@h237.172.40.162.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
18:19 <Nazurath> k
18:19 <Nazurath> Pinging with 32 bytes of data:
18:19 <Nazurath> Reply from bytes=32 time<1ms TTL=128
18:19 <Nazurath> Reply from bytes=32 time<1ms TTL=128
18:19 <Nazurath> Reply from bytes=32 time<1ms TTL=128
18:19 <Nazurath> Reply from bytes=32 time<1ms TTL=128
18:19 <Nazurath> Ping statistics for
18:19 <Nazurath>     Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
18:19 <Nazurath> Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
18:19 <Nazurath>     Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 0ms, Average = 0ms
18:19 <Nazurath> what does that do?
18:21 -!- SD|away [i=tribe@h237.172.40.162.ip.alltel.net] has joined #armagetron
18:29 <Nazurath> so spidey, this is only 30 day trial or does that even matter?
18:30 <Nazurath> for xchat
18:33 <Nazurath> hmm
18:33 <Nazurath> says mine is a 30 day trial
18:35 -!- Nazurath [n=Josh@stjhnbsu84w-156034190032.nb.aliant.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
18:35 -!- Vanhayes [n=Vanhayes@stjhnbsu84w-156034190032.nb.aliant.net] has joined #armagetron
18:53 <Lucifer_arma> #g (830+17)/907
18:53 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: (830 + 17) / 907 = 0.93384785
19:10 <Vanhayes> #fortune
19:10 <armabot> Random Fortune:  BOFH Excuse #241: || _Rosin_ core solder? But...
19:23 -!- ghableska [n=ghablesk@12-216-188-42.client.mchsi.com] has joined #armagetron
19:23 <ghableska> hello
19:23 <Vanhayes> hey ghab
19:23 <joda_bot> ghableska: hi
19:23 <ghableska> hi Vanhayes, joda_bot
19:24 -!- SD|away is now known as Self_Destructo
19:31  * ghableska just downloaded WMP 11
19:33 <Vanhayes> wmp 11?
19:34 <Vanhayes> what is that?
19:34 <ghableska> windows media player
19:34 <ghableska> it's shiny ;)
19:34 <ghableska> well, it got shinier
19:34 <ghableska> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/player/11/default.aspx
19:34 -!- Gnorty [n=Gnorty@cpc1-cosh2-0-0-cust614.cos2.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
19:35 <Vanhayes> any good?
19:35 <ghableska> not much
19:35 <ghableska> it just looks better
19:35 <ghableska> i use iTunes for music though...
19:36 <Vanhayes> doesnt that cost money tho?
19:36 <ghableska> well, you can import songs from cd'
19:36 <ghableska> s
19:38 <Lucifer_arma> http://forums.armagetronad.net/viewtopic.php?p=49781#49781
19:39 <Luke-Jr> any reason to get cat6 over cat5e?
19:40 -!- feed_emus [n=matt@] has joined #armagetron
19:43 <Lucifer_arma> I always ended up smelling like pussy
19:51 <Luke-Jr> sucks
19:52 <Lucifer_arma> hi there Mr. Sucks.
19:52  * Lucifer_arma loves Red Dwarf :)
19:53 <Lucifer_arma> #g (834+18)/907
19:53 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: (834 + 18) / 907 = 0.939360529
19:53 <Lucifer_arma> 94% done and it's building firefox.  :(
19:59 -!- feed_emus [n=matt@] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
20:02 -!- guru3 [n=guru3@2002:51e7:e65f:1:0:0:0:1] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20:03 -!- guru3 [n=guru3@2002:51e7:e65f:1:0:0:0:1] has joined #armagetron
20:04 <Lucifer_arma> wb guru3 
20:05 -!- ghableska [n=ghablesk@12-216-188-42.client.mchsi.com] has left #armagetron []
20:08 <Luke-Jr> too bad nobody produces digital cameras with open source firmware
20:08 <Luke-Jr> guess we'll need to stick with analog
20:09 <Lucifer_arma> good old open source analog
20:10  * Lucifer_arma notes that when you're talking about cameras, it's called "film", not analog.
20:10 <Luke-Jr> whatever =p
20:10 <Luke-Jr> at least it has theoretically infinite resolution =p
20:11 <Lucifer_arma> no it doesn't, it's limited by the number of molecules on the film
20:11 <Lucifer_arma> because it's a chemical process :)
20:12 <Luke-Jr> ok, compared to digital then
20:12 <Lucifer_arma> digital camera technology is quite young compared to film technology, which is over 150 years old
20:13 <Lucifer_arma> so it's both unreasonable to expect a young technology like digital cameras to meet or exceed the older one, and it's quite amazing how fast it got competitive
20:13 <Lucifer_arma> it's safe to say that digital will easily outpace film in resolution
20:13 <Lucifer_arma> if it hasn't already.  The last two star wars movies were beautiful--shot with digital cameras
20:14 <Luke-Jr> they're both beyond what the naked eye can discern
20:14 <Luke-Jr> the only relevance is in zooming post-picture
20:14 <Lucifer_arma> the problems are in scaling upward in size
20:14 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, that :)
20:14 <Lucifer_arma> it also matters when you need to retouch a bad shot, the more data that's there the better job you can do
20:15 <Luke-Jr> true
20:15 <Luke-Jr> the only sucky thing with sticking to film, that I can see, is that WalMart's digital copies are like 1.7 MP
20:15 <Lucifer_arma> I've personally noticed that if I take the pictures off my camera and shrink them by a factor of about 3/4 I get really beautiful, clear, crisp pictures
20:16 <Lucifer_arma> and they're just shot off, to boot.  Going to digital lets you compose the picture yourself, giving a much better opportunity for a high quality digital shot
20:16 <Luke-Jr> ?
20:16 <Lucifer_arma> you ever develop film?
20:23 -!- joda_bot [n=anonymou@dslb-084-061-034-132.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #armagetron []
20:34 <Lucifer_arma> #g (839+20)/907
20:34 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: (839 + 20) / 907 = 0.94707828
20:39 <Lucifer_arma> #g (841+24)/907
20:39 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: (841 + 24) / 907 = 0.953693495
20:47 <Lucifer_arma> #g (843+34)/907
20:47 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: (843 + 34) / 907 = 0.966923925
21:04 -!- deja_vu_ [n=deja_vu@p5090B2DE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #armagetron
21:12 -!- deja_vu [n=deja_vu@] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
21:38 <wrtlprnft> uh
21:39 <wrtlprnft> looks like i missed some messages
21:39 -!- Vanhayes [n=Vanhayes@stjhnbsu84w-156034190032.nb.aliant.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
21:40 <wrtlprnft> 17:47 <armabot> Random Fortune: ...
21:40 <wrtlprnft> 17:50 <Vanhayes> #fortune
21:40 <wrtlprnft> 17:50 <armabot> Random Fortune: ...
21:40 <wrtlprnft> 17:51 <armabot> Random Fortune: ...
21:40 <wrtlprnft> weird
21:40 <wrtlprnft> or, wait
21:40 <wrtlprnft> spidey: you're there
21:40 <wrtlprnft> stupid ignore lists i guess
21:41 <wrtlprnft> spidey: if you're here, can you post a test message?
21:51 -!- deja_vu_ is now known as deja_vu
21:58 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: the function of the group of players and the money they'll donate doesn't have a limit of 0. Players of group 3 (Say: Luke-Jr) obviously want to get money, so the value is negative :P
21:59 -!- deja_vu_ [n=deja_vu@p5090C0BC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #armagetron
22:04 <spidey> eetrt
22:04 <spidey> and that got me killed
22:04 <spidey> for now on this box goes in screensaver mode
22:04 <wrtlprnft> ?
22:04 <spidey> <,<
22:04 <spidey> playing ct fortress
22:04 <wrtlprnft> o_O
22:04 <spidey> whatchya need?
22:05 <wrtlprnft> oh, I'm fine now
22:05 <wrtlprnft> just realized that you were still silenced
22:05 <spidey> :|
22:05 <wrtlprnft> i was kinda surprised how armabot spit out fortunes without anyone telling her to
22:06 <spidey> linux has a fortune cmd
22:06 <wrtlprnft> i know
22:07 <spidey> Love is in the offing.  Be affectionate to one who adores you.
22:07 <spidey> I've touch'd the highest point of all my greatness;
22:07 <spidey> And from that full meridian of my glory
22:07 <spidey> I haste now to my setting.  I shall fall,
22:07 <spidey> Like a bright exhalation in the evening
22:07 <spidey> And no man see me more.
22:07 <spidey> 		-- Shakespeare
22:07 <wrtlprnft> guess what that alias uses
22:07 <spidey> :p
22:07 <spidey> fortune?
22:07 <spidey> :p
22:07 <wrtlprnft> yes :D
22:07 <wrtlprnft> with some custom command parameters
22:07 <spidey> ok i'm putting this box in screensaver
22:08 <wrtlprnft> fortune 2% law 2% perl 2% work 5% drugs 8% riddles 5% linux 2% magic 5% kernelcookies 5% science 5% computers 5% fortunes 5% cookie 10% hitchhiker translate-me 5% bofh-excuses 5% definitions 5% linuxcookie startrek ethnic 3% futurama strangelove 1% tao 3% homer starwars 5% paradoxum -s -n 300
22:08 <spidey> you're getting me killed :p
22:08 <wrtlprnft> :P
22:08 <spidey> Your motives for doing whatever good deed you may have in mind will be
22:08 <spidey> misinterpreted by somebody.
22:08 <spidey> Today is what happened to yesterday.
22:08 <spidey> Linux version 2.6.12-9-386 (buildd@rothera) (gcc version 3.4.5 20050809 (prerelease) (Ubuntu 3.4.4-6ubuntu8)) #1 Mon Oct 10 13:14:36 BST 2005
22:09 <wrtlprnft> .12? stone age!
22:09 <spidey> lol
22:09 <wrtlprnft> Linux laptop #8 PREEMPT Sat May 6 15:47:57 CDT 2006 i686 Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1300MHz GNU/Linux
22:09 <wrtlprnft> kernel is installed, just needs a reboot
22:09 <spidey> 1300mhz? stone age!
22:10 <spidey> cat: /proc/cpuinf: No such file or directory
22:10 <wrtlprnft> so it will be in effect whenever i forget to plug my laptop in next time
22:10 <spidey> processor	: 0
22:10 <spidey> vendor_id	: GenuineIntel
22:10 <spidey> cpu family	: 15
22:10 <spidey> model		: 2
22:10 <spidey> model name	: Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU 2.40GHz
22:10 <spidey> stepping	: 9
22:10 <spidey> cpu MHz		: 2393.438
22:10 <spidey> cache size	: 128 KB
22:10 <spidey> fdiv_bug	: no
22:10 <spidey> hlt_bug		: no
22:10 <spidey> f00f_bug	: no
22:10 <spidey> coma_bug	: no
22:10 <wrtlprnft> o_O
22:10 <spidey> fpu		: yes
22:10 <spidey> fpu_exception	: yes
22:10 <spidey> cpuid level	: 2
22:10 <wrtlprnft> http://pastebin.ca/
22:10 <spidey> wp		: yes
22:10 <spidey> flags		: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe cid xtpr
22:10 <spidey> bogomips	: 4734.97
22:10 <wrtlprnft> http://pastebin.ca/
22:10 <spidey> cat /proc/cpuinfo
22:10 <spidey> :p
22:10 <deja_vu_> model name      : Pentium II (Deschutes)
22:10 <deja_vu_> cpu MHz         : 391.964
22:10 <deja_vu_> :P
22:10 <wrtlprnft> well
22:11 <spidey> lol
22:11 <wrtlprnft> that's the same as my server :P
22:11 <wrtlprnft> well, not quite
22:11 <wrtlprnft> cpu MHz         : 398.816
22:11 <wrtlprnft> mine is faster!!!111oneone
22:11 <deja_vu_> ^^
22:12 <wrtlprnft> #g 398.816 - 391.964
22:12 <armabot> wrtlprnft: 398.81600 - 391.96400 = 6.85200
22:12 <spidey> well
22:12 <wrtlprnft> by a whopping 6.852 MHz
22:12 <spidey> my sevrer has a 2.19ghz p4
22:12 <deja_vu_> my server has 233MHz *.*
22:12 <spidey> lol
22:12 <spidey> my ibm has 700mhz
22:13 <spidey> and 48mb of ram
22:13 <spidey> :/
22:13 <deja_vu_> ^^
22:13 <wrtlprnft> well, it doesn't need to be much faster
22:13 <wrtlprnft> the only time it annoys me is when compiling my arma server
22:13 <wrtlprnft> gGame.cpp takes like 40 seconds to compile
22:15 -!- deja_vu [n=deja_vu@p5090B2DE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:15 -!- GodTodd [n=GodTodd@c-71-199-204-144.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #armagetron
22:15 -!- deja_vu_ is now known as deja_vu
22:16 <spidey> is it just me
22:16 <spidey> or is cvs not on the list?
22:17 <wrtlprnft> uh, z-man said something about a network failure
22:18 <wrtlprnft> he can't reach his uni machine
22:18 <wrtlprnft> ie probably no cvs fortress, sumo, or spoon for the weekend
22:18 <spidey> no
22:18 <wrtlprnft> and probably no more cvs fortress forever
22:18 <spidey> i can custmom connect
22:18 <wrtlprnft> if it comes back it will be svn fortress
22:18 <wrtlprnft> nvm then
23:09 <n54> model name      : Pentium II (Deschutes)    cpu MHz         : 347.763    ^^ this machine
23:11 <n54> omg super-long post by Lucifer
23:11  * n54 just woke up and should shower and breakfast

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Logs from 2006-2009 pulled from wrtlprnft
Format changes at: 2015-08-25, 2017-02-20, and 2020-03-23. Times (2015 and later) should be Eastern.

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