Log from 2006-05-16:
--- Day changed Tue May 16 2006
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01:49 <z-man> #morning
01:49 <armabot> Good Morning z-man! Random Fortune:  Speer's 1st Law of Proofreading: || The visibility of an error is inversely proportional to the || number of times you have looked at it.
01:50 <guru3> woop
01:50 <guru3> my workstation's back in the game
01:50 <n54> morning z-man & guru3 :)
02:00 <guru3> good morning n54 
02:01 <n54> :)
02:01 <guru3> i could maybe get used to drupal
02:01 <guru3> if the links were more intuitive
02:02 <n54> but it's still metter than mediawiki right?
02:02 <n54> better*
02:02 <guru3> i don't know really
02:03 <n54> me neither really, it's just the impression I've got from others
02:04 <guru3> heh
02:04 <guru3> you know the aa.net domain name will expire in less than a month?
02:04 <guru3> i've got to remember to renew it
02:04 <guru3> toast- bbl
02:05 <n54> how much will it cost?
02:10 <guru3> back
02:10 <guru3> around $35
02:10 <guru3> we've gotten enough donations to cover it though :)
02:11 <n54> ok good :) I'd chip in otherwise
02:11 <n54> did you post about at the forum or did it all happen so quick that wasn't even neccessary+
02:11 <n54> about it*
02:24 <guru3> nah no need to bother everyone
02:24 <guru3> we've got $$ for the domain for a few years now
02:24 <guru3> this one guy was very generous
02:24 <guru3> or his finger slipped on the keyboard
02:25 <guru3> either way he donated $200
02:25 <guru3> and so is essentially single handedly keeping us in buisness
02:25 <guru3> or at least being a key part of it
02:25 <n54> yikes :D well thanks to whoever that was :)
02:27 <guru3> yeah
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02:49  * z-man hopes everyone is OK with the sudden materialization of the SVN migration decision
02:57 <guru3> i'm off to study
02:57 <guru3> cu
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--- Log opened Tue May 16 07:39:10 2006
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07:40 <wrtlprnft> grr
07:40 <wrtlprnft> forgot to plug in my notebook overnight
07:52 <wrtlprnft> oh, yeah, good luck to guru3 :)
08:10 <LuciEatsPeople> hoo-hoo, I got an A in my Texas Government class
08:10 <LuciEatsPeople> ummm
08:11 -!- LuciEatsPeople is now known as Lucifer_arma
08:14 <GodTodd> congrats :)
08:28 <guru3> home
08:30 <Lucifer_arma> so how'd it go?
08:31 <Lucifer_arma> why is it that when I ask people to do really hard things, they do it without question, but if I ask people to do easy things, they refuse and try to fight about it?
08:33 <GodTodd> maybe the challenge/learning factor?
08:38 <guru3> not too bad
08:38 <guru3> i finnished kinda quickly
08:39 <guru3> but oh well
08:40 <guru3> ain't fuck i can do about it now :D
08:42 <Lucifer_arma> heh, challenge/learning factor...  I've asked for two simple things.  :)
08:43 <Lucifer_arma> 1.  That my wife close our bedroom door.  This is a request that's been outstanding for 10 years now.  She just won't fucking do it!
08:43 <Lucifer_arma> 2.  Well, it's on the forums now.  acme yadayada
08:43 <Lucifer_arma> I could ask my wife to do the brakes on my car.  She'd do it, with a little arguing.
08:44 <Lucifer_arma> But no amount of fighting will get her to close our bedroom door!
08:44 <GodTodd> well...as far as women....hard to tell why they do or don't do what they do or don't do :D
08:45 <GodTodd> that's one user manual i would NOT want to write heh
08:45 <guru3> haha
08:45 <z-man-work> All I'm asking for is an OFF button :)
08:45 <Lucifer_arma> heh
08:45 <guru3> can't you settle for the sleep one?
08:45 <z-man-work> Or mute, anyway
08:45 <GodTodd> hell...i'd take a mute myself
08:45 <GodTodd> :D
08:47 <Lucifer_arma> z-man-work: not sure what's going on with releases.  There's a checkbox that if I click, browsing projects stops working the way you'd expect it to
08:47 <Lucifer_arma> I think that not clicking it causes new releases not to work
08:47 <Lucifer_arma> it's a very weird module, this Project module is
08:47  * z-man-work agrees
08:47 <Lucifer_arma> http://armatest.davefancella.com/admin/settings/project  <-- here, you fuck with it :)
08:48 <z-man-work> which button is it?
08:48 <Lucifer_arma> Actually it's a text box, Release Directory
08:48 <Lucifer_arma> options that probably work are /www/homeFiles, /www/home/files
08:49 <Lucifer_arma> both of those are writeable by the web user
08:49 <z-man-work> so if set, people would be supposed to upload their files there, then register a release for it?
08:50 <Lucifer_arma> I don't think so.  It has something to do with releases being generated by some other tool
08:50 <Lucifer_arma> eave this blank if project maintainers are to create their own release packages. This is useful if releases are generated by an external tool.
08:50 <Lucifer_arma> I'm not entirely certain what that means, but it might mean that filling it disables creating releases
08:50 <Lucifer_arma> but if you don't fill it, then the browser stops working.
08:51 <Lucifer_arma> of course, the browser may filter out projects that don't have releases, but that wouldn't be expected behavior.  I'd consider that a bug, in fact.
08:52 <Lucifer_arma> Browse projects by releases  <-- this text box seems to have something to do with it too, but I have no idea what
08:53 <z-man-work> Well, definitely, the upload of a file doesn't work
08:56 <Lucifer_arma> any idea where it's trying to put files?
09:00 <z-man-work> No, it looks like it's not even trying to upload the file
09:01 <z-man-work> If I select a file in my home directory, the link it tries to access it by later is http://armatest.davefancella.com/<fileanme>
09:01 <z-man-work> It can't possibly be a Firefox incompatibility, or can it?
09:04 <Lucifer_arma> right, problem is, I don't want files put there.  Well, that's not a big problem, except that it seems that Project doesn't want to let me pick where to put files
09:04 <Lucifer_arma> I can't imagine it being a Firefox incompatibility.
09:08 <z-man-work> I'm slowly, very slowly getting the hang of it
09:09 <Lucifer_arma> heh.  did you figure out how to make it put files somewhere besides the root?
09:09 <Lucifer_arma> this is only for Project, mind you.  The other modules seem to be doing fine respecting their upload locations.
09:10 <Lucifer_arma> there's supposed to be an api for file uploads that modules are supposed to use, which allows a global setting for file uploads
09:11 <z-man-work> but Project doesn't use it?
09:12 <Lucifer_arma> apparently not
09:12 <Lucifer_arma> heh
09:12 <z-man-work> The file slot probably isn't really an upload thingie after all
09:12 <Lucifer_arma> maybe they have a good reason for it.  It looks like they use it for issues, I just made the issues directory under files
09:13 <Lucifer_arma> then why the browse button?
09:14 <z-man-work> Beats me
09:14 <z-man-work> entering an URI also doesn't work:
09:14 <z-man-work> http://armatest.davefancella.com/node/21/release
09:15 <z-man-work> The intended usage really seems to be: upload file via ftp/scp to the server, and add the path to it in the release
09:15 <z-man-work> this is worse than aabeta :)
09:16 <Lucifer_arma>  /files/home/part3/moos/x   <--- is this a local path on your machine?
09:16 <z-man-work> Or perhaps you're supposed to generate the release files from within the system
09:16 <z-man-work> yes, a local path
09:16 <Lucifer_arma> ok.  Ummmm........
09:16 <z-man-work> that's what Konqueror's file selection item put in there
09:16 <Lucifer_arma> scp is out of the question for this.  I'm not making ssh accounts for everybody on this machine, and that's not sustainable for us anyway
09:16 <z-man-work> But without uploading anything, of course
09:16 <Lucifer_arma> anonymous ftp might work, though.
09:16 <Lucifer_arma> that or hacking Project to just take uploads through the website...
09:17  * Lucifer_arma goes looking at the source
09:24 <Lucifer_arma> why do file upload ui's have to suck so much?  :(
09:24  * Lucifer_arma whines
09:28 <z-man-work> Without knowing the details, I'd say Luke would say that it's because browser based file uploads are broken in concept.
09:28 <z-man-work> Dunno, perhaps he'd be right.
09:31 <z-man-work> But, Lucifer_arma:does that mean that at least, the thing is supposed to be a file upload?
09:34 <Lucifer_arma> it looks like a file upload, doesn't it?  :)
09:34 <Lucifer_arma> I really believe it's supposed to be a file upload, which means it's either broken because it's not, or it's a bug that it doesn't work, or that it's just poorly written
09:35 <Lucifer_arma> also, either they went to some considerable trouble to put a button that says "Browse" on there, or they actually used a file upload widget on the page
09:35 <Lucifer_arma> I'm trying to get the damn form to reappear so I can look at the page source and see which it is :)
09:37 <Lucifer_arma> that's annoying.  I got it to show the form again, but when I view source I get a different page.  Apparently firefox doesn't make view page source part of the same session,
09:37 <Lucifer_arma> so Drupal gives me an access denied message instead :(
09:39 <Lucifer_arma> DOM inspector dug it out, it's a file upload widget for sure
09:41 <z-man-work> Hmm, but usually, my browsers warn be before a file is actually uploaded. Here, they don't.
09:46 <Lucifer_arma> it's definitely a file upload widget, but none of the api calls needed to treat it as such are there
09:46  * Lucifer_arma has been grepping and googling to figure that out :)
09:47 <Lucifer_arma> I don't know why your browser's not warning you.  Maybe you've told it to trust this server before?
09:47 <Lucifer_arma> try attaching a file to an issue and see what happens
09:47  * Lucifer_arma goes to find out himself
09:48 <Lucifer_arma> file uploads work for issues
09:49 <z-man-work> yes, and it doesn't warn me there
09:49 <z-man-work> so the non-warning is not an issue
09:50  * z-man-work is testing in konqueror
09:51 <z-man-work> Aha, konqueror is warning me about an upload with the issues
09:52 <z-man-work> So something must be wrong on the document level
09:52 <z-man-work> (minimally)
09:52 <Lucifer_arma> yeah....
09:52 <Lucifer_arma> I found the form generator for issues so I could see what a working file upload looked like :)
09:54 <Lucifer_arma> ok, the release form is being generated as a file uploader....  where's the handler?  Must have missed it
09:54 <guru3> haha i just noticed sound still isn't working on my workstation ><
09:54 <z-man-work> I couldn't spot a relevant difference in the HTML of the issue and release submission pages ;(
09:55  * z-man-work is a noob
09:58 <z-man-work> Hacked a working release :) http://armatest.davefancella.com/node/21/release#version-2.0
10:01 <Lucifer_arma> did you upload the file as a release attachment?
10:05 <Lucifer_arma> I think I've figured out what's broke
10:05 <Lucifer_arma> it's trying to handle file uploads through the web form and file uploads through an external system through the same system
10:05 <Lucifer_arma> gforge made the same mistake and I had to hack it out of it for sugar's installation
10:05 <Lucifer_arma> looks like I should do the same thing for Project.  :(
10:06 <Lucifer_arma> anyway, the end result is that the complete path to the file as sent by the browser is getting stored in the database, and then that path is just dumped to the page
10:08 <Lucifer_arma> it'll be a nontrivial hack
10:10 <z-man-work> What I did was attach the release file to an issue, and later enter the server's file path in the "upload" box on the release form
10:10 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, that's what I suspected.  :)
10:10 <Lucifer_arma> ok, I submitted a bug for it.  It's a nontrivial hack, so I'll have to worry about it later today, or maybe in a couple of days.
10:11 <z-man-work> k
10:11  * Lucifer_arma reminds himself to unzip the original source in another directory so he can start making patches.
10:11 <Lucifer_arma> I guess if I'm going to hack it I should put it in a svn repo somewhere, heh
10:18 <Lucifer_arma> does svn let you delete a branch?
10:21 <Lucifer_arma> I was thinking it would be easier to delete the openAL branch and recreate it when I'm ready to start working on it again than to ask Luke-Jr to just not import it
10:23 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: yes, but that plan doesn't sound like it makes sense... but you're the guy working on the branch, so it's your call
10:24 <Luke-Jr> as with everything else, it should be imported to complete history
10:24 <Lucifer_arma> Luke-Jr: it's apparently not my call for acme, heh.
10:24 <Lucifer_arma> there's a time and place to worry about history, and letting our new svn repo get bloated for the sake of history probably isn't it
10:24 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: you *could* delete acme-pygame after the import-- but then it blocks anyone else from continuing it, or keeping the old release tags and such
10:24 <Lucifer_arma> historians don't use SCM...
10:24 <Lucifer_arma> there aren't any release tags
10:24 <Luke-Jr> the purpose of a SCM is history
10:24 <Luke-Jr> oh
10:25 <Lucifer_arma> there's just the original import plus a few commits
10:25 <Lucifer_arma> and that's *it*
10:25 <Lucifer_arma> same with the openAL branch
10:25 <Luke-Jr> well then that makes it even easier to just move it aside
10:26 <Luke-Jr> but in the case of an abandoned/dead branch, I'd figure just delete it once the import is done
10:26 <Lucifer_arma> well, with the openAL branch, it needs to have cvs head merged back into it before more work can proceed, and while it should go smoothly, I'd still prefer to avoid it
10:26 <Lucifer_arma> openAL isn't abandoned or dead.  :)  Just that a lot of work has happened since it was made to render it very difficult to work with.  So when I restart it, I'd like to restart it fresh.
10:27 <Lucifer_arma> I'd also like to rethink how the source for it is organized, I'm considering the possibility of leaving the SDL_mixer sound engine for the sake of reducing dependencies.
10:28 <Luke-Jr> same thing
10:28 <Luke-Jr> *that* go at OpenAL is dead =p
10:29 <Lucifer_arma> heh, sure.  :)  Except I'll be starting from the same code for the next one.  Heh.
10:30 <Lucifer_arma> I also want to see if I can do my file reading through SDL_audio, which is part of SDL iirc.  That way I don't have to deal with ogg and mp3 and stuff
10:52 <z-man-work> Lucifer_arma: of course, it *is* your call for acme
10:52 -!- philippeqc [n=philippe@c83-250-130-90.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #armagetron
10:53 <z-man-work> Luke-Jr: I'm curious, what exactly do you mean when you say "delete old/unused branches and tags"?
10:53 <z-man-work> What happens to them? Are they moved to some sort of attic or really deleted in SVN (which doesn't make them inaccessible, I know)
10:53 <z-man-work> hi philippeqc 
10:53 <philippeqc> hi z-man
10:54 <philippeqc> how are you
10:54 <z-man-work> And what's the criterion for selecting the things to prune?
10:54 <z-man-work> behind today's todo schedule, but fine, and you?
10:55  * z-man-work doesn't like polite greetings in IRC, compares them to SPAM
10:55 <philippeqc> just came home, bicycled from work,
10:55 <philippeqc> lol, 
10:56 <philippeqc> just saw your post about subversion, decided now I should _really_ pay attention to it, seeing the bold text comment ;)
10:57 <z-man-work> hehe, yes, that's why I did that :)
10:58 <z-man-work> And right at the beginning of the tread, when it isn't fragmented by our usual trench fights and nobody is reading it any more
10:58 <philippeqc> sorry I didnt follow the discussions about versioning tools. I realised I didnt have the time required to really participate in the testing and comparing.
10:58 <z-man-work> No problem. We'll be fine with central subversion
10:59 <z-man-work> a lot of people are using it and are happy with it, so it'll work for us as well
10:59 <z-man-work> And it's really easy to switch from CVS to SVN
10:59 <philippeqc> you/someone should publish the equivalent of sf's "how to cvs if your anonymous or a developer"
11:00 <z-man-work> Aren't there docs about it on SF?
11:00 <z-man-work> Or at least a link to the official SVN docs?
11:02 <philippeqc> just saw the bit of your post where you mention that SVN will run from SF, and realised they must have it ;)
11:03 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: delete the stuff we don't need to keep
11:03 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: which leaves them only in history
11:03 <z-man-work> With "svn delete"?
11:03 <Luke-Jr> yes
11:03 <z-man-work> ok, but isn't that a bit silly for tags?
11:03 <Luke-Jr> hm?
11:03 <z-man-work> or are VERSION tags excluded?
11:04 <Luke-Jr> version tags/branches won't be deleted
11:04 <Luke-Jr> just useless stuff
11:04 <z-man-work> That was my second question :)
11:04 <Luke-Jr> in fact, if some non-version tag/branch *isn't* useless, please mention it ;)
11:04 <z-man-work> So the helper tags that I used for merging the right stuff from b0_2_8 to the trunk will be gone, but not v0_2_8_1.
11:05 <Luke-Jr> the "_merged_to_" stuff? yeah
11:05 <Luke-Jr> well, except that there's no cleanup stage post-aa/aa import
11:05 <z-man-work> I wouldn't remember any useful one, but I'll check with cvs log
11:05 <Luke-Jr> but I could add it =p
11:05  * Luke-Jr imagines cvs log would make such hard to notice
11:06 <McSpiddles> man,on this test book i almost put my name down as spidey :/
11:06 <Luke-Jr> LOL
11:07 <z-man-work> cvs log lists all the tags right at the start :)
11:07 <Lucifer_arma> ?  but those tags are history...
11:07 <z-man-work> Glancing over them, no, at least in armagetronad, the non-version tags are obsolete
11:08 <z-man-work> Lucifer_arma: yes, and they'll be preserved in history, but not in the list people get when they browse for tags
11:08 <z-man-work> Makes sense to me :)
11:08  * Lucifer_arma smiles facetiously
11:09 <z-man-work> The Root_ tags may be useful still, unless SVN has an easy way to find the branching revision of a branch
11:09 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: and they will remain in history
11:10 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: how about the 'z-man' branch? ;)
11:10 <z-man-work> There is a z-man branch???
11:10 <Luke-Jr> in the original project
11:10 <Luke-Jr> network_priority
11:10 <Luke-Jr> network-rework
11:10 <z-man-work> oh
11:10 <z-man-work> Gee, I can't remember that one
11:11 <z-man-work> I guess it's safe to say they're dead
11:11 <philippeqc> Luke-Jr: I think I did a commit some time about for code for my thesis, THAT you can just remove!
11:11 <Luke-Jr> 'start'
11:11 <Luke-Jr> philippeqc: wtf?
11:12 <philippeqc> It might have already been removed from cvs, but it was a branch/project that used the wrong cvs setting, and intead of going to a comp at uni, went to AA
11:12 <Luke-Jr> O.o
11:12 <Luke-Jr> 'lala'?
11:12 <z-man-work> My motto with old stuff is that if I can't remember it even existed, it's junk :)
11:13 <philippeqc> that sound like my stuff
11:13 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: how about the network stuff and 'start' tag?
11:13 <z-man-work> I can't remember them
11:13 <Luke-Jr> o
11:13 <Luke-Jr> so drop?
11:13 <z-man-work> yes
11:13 <z-man-work> I surely won't go back and do work on them
11:13 <Lucifer_arma> I have a special directory I for old, abandoned code, because I do go back to it a fair amount and dig up stuff that I need now.  :)
11:14 <Lucifer_arma> the pygame-based acme is there now, heh
11:15 <Lucifer_arma> here's the thing.  I don't object to acme coming into the svn repository, I object to having to ask a project admin to email sourceforge and ask them to delete it...
11:15 <z-man-work> Now that I have both of your attention: if Lucifer_arma says acme should be dropped, then Luke-Jr should drop it
11:15 <Lucifer_arma> or having to spend considerable time rearranging it
11:16 <Lucifer_arma> so if I don't have to do either of those things to do the restructuring I want, then I don't actually care if it's brought in
11:16 <philippeqc> subversion required 2 exclusives libs here. Their descriptions are lib64svn_fs_base1_0:"FS implementation using BDB for Subversion" and  lib64svn_fs_fs1_0:"FS implementation using FSFS backend for Subversion".  I cant make sense of that. Which one should I use?
11:16 <Lucifer_arma> like, if I could just "svndelete *" and start fresh, I'm cool with that.
11:16 <z-man-work> What kind of rearranging do you have in mind? SVN supports file moves.
11:17 <Lucifer_arma> one file at a time rearranging :)
11:17 <z-man-work> Lucifer_arma: svn delete also works :)
11:17 <Lucifer_arma> because in cvs, I could delete all the files and add the new ones, but that's a lot of work
11:17 <z-man-work> I guess in SVN, you can recursively delete everything
11:17 <Lucifer_arma> a lot of work I don't want to do, I'd rather have a new module for it.  Then you get into having an acme and an acme-qt/current/whatever module
11:18 <z-man-work> philippeqc: I guess this decision is only important if you want to run the svn server
11:18 <Lucifer_arma> so anyway, if I could just delete the acme module and import a new one from here, I don't really care.  It's just diskspace, then.  But you see the dilemma with cvs, right?
11:18 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: you don't need to do either of those, no
11:19 <philippeqc> z-man-work: That was the only guess I could formulate. 
11:19 <Lucifer_arma> and I was waiting to deal with it until I had a working pyqt version :)
11:19 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: I would just be doing 'svn move .../acme/trunk .../acme/branches/acme-pygame', and then you'd import the new stuff into trunk
11:19 <z-man-work> philippeqc: perhaps there is a svn-client module you can install?
11:19 <philippeqc> I guess the server will be of type "svnserve" and not "http/dav"
11:19 <z-man-work> Otherwise, the choice doesn't matter, and FSFS probably has less dependency overhead
11:20 <philippeqc> z-man-work: that is what I'm doing, but it has some dependencies that have exclusive choices ;)
11:20 <z-man-work> Wait, so you have a conflict and can't work around it?
11:21 <Lucifer_arma> you're using Mandriva, right philippeqc ?
11:21 <philippeqc> no no, it offers me choice between 2 lib for the fs, and 3 lib for the type of access. 
11:21 <philippeqc> yes Lucifer_arma 
11:21 <z-man-work> Lucifer_arma: yes, after the import, you can just move the old module out of your way
11:22 <philippeqc> seing that the server access seems exclusive of other, and one is "local", I can safely ignore this one. But if we have a http/dav or svnserve server seems to be the important decision to be made.
11:22 <Luke-Jr> so what is the verdict on:
11:22 <Luke-Jr> branches: world-0-1, soundOpenAL, shaped_arenas, keyauth, connector-a, b0_2_8_map, b0_2_7_1_recording, b0_2_7_1_netcode, b0_2_7_0_netcode, b0_2_7_0_invisiblewalls, aardvark_automake_br
11:23 <z-man-work> keyauth is yours, I recon
11:23 <Luke-Jr> tags: v0_2_7_0_before_security_fixes, v0_2_7_0_after_security_fixes, rc8, rc7, rc6, rc5, rc3, keyauth_root
11:23 <philippeqc> world* shaped* connector* can go
11:23 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: is it? hehe; I forget
11:23 <z-man-work> b0_2_7_1_recording, b0_2_7_1_netcode, b0_2_7_0_netcode have all been merged back
11:24 <z-man-work> connector-a and world-0-1 are philippeqc's
11:24 <philippeqc> b0_2_8_map is actual development code, so there is the history factor, but otherwise I really dont mind
11:24 <philippeqc> but I dont think I was the onlyone involved on b0_2_8, so others might have a say on it
11:25 <Luke-Jr> philippeqc: everything is remaining in history
11:25 <z-man-work> The rc tags were planned to be replacable for new releases. Junk.
11:25 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: so they aren't actual RCs?
11:26 <z-man-work> v0_2_7_0_before_security_fixes, v0_2_7_0_after_security_fixes were used to backport the security fixes in 0.2.7, which gives them an almonst-version like character. But they won't be used any more, so they're junk, too.
11:26 <z-man-work> the rc tags were real rc's of 0.2.7.1
11:26 <philippeqc> you can drop them then. The work done there isnt worth anything, and really not worth trying to merge it with head. And it will clear up the number of branches
11:27 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: so how about I rename those to 0.2.7.1_rcX
11:27 <z-man-work> If yoy like
11:27 <z-man-work> you
11:27 <z-man-work> oh, will all the release tags get *proper* names like that?
11:27 <Luke-Jr> just thought of that
11:28 <Luke-Jr> 4c =p
11:28 <Luke-Jr> or maybe it should be pre-4a
11:28 <z-man-work> eh?
11:28 <Luke-Jr> a new stage
11:28 <z-man-work> ah
11:28 <z-man-work> I'd make it 4c
11:29 <z-man-work> because by then, you have reworked the hierarchy so the renaming is less work
11:29 <Luke-Jr> O.o it is?
11:30 <z-man-work> Not really, we didn't have the auxiliary modules when we made 0.2.7.1, iirc
11:30 <Luke-Jr> so anyway... soundOpenAL, b0_2_7_1_recording, b0_2_7_1_netcode, b0_2_7_0_netcode, b0_2_7_0_invisiblewalls, aardvark_automake_br
11:31 <z-man-work> You heard Lucifer_arma on soundOpenAL, he'd like to restart it anew. The others are only of historical insterest.
11:31 <z-man-work> interest
11:32 <z-man-work> Would there be a harm in moving the stuff you'd delete into a "Historical" section instead?
11:32 <z-man-work> Apart from people fetching the whole repository getting all that old junk downloaded?
11:33 <Lucifer_arma> what the hell does it take to establish residency?!?
11:33 <z-man-work> ?
11:33 <z-man-work> context?
11:33 <Lucifer_arma> my wife's considered a resident, my kids are going to public schools here, and I've been here for nearly 2 years again
11:33 <Lucifer_arma> school
11:33 <z-man-work> and you're not considered resident?
11:33 <Lucifer_arma> I'm self-employed, and never bothered to get a tax id number
11:34 <z-man-work> ah
11:34 <Lucifer_arma> so I don't have a local employer
11:34 <Lucifer_arma> I didn't get a texas driver's license right away, in fact I just got it yesterday
11:34 <Lucifer_arma> didn't register to vote, the nearest elections of interest were several years out still
11:34 <Lucifer_arma> didn't register any cars in my name, it wasn't necessary and it was much more convenient for my wife to go do it
11:34 <z-man-work> Well, if they have no documents of you, you don't exist.
11:34 <Lucifer_arma> argh
11:35 <Luke-Jr> I don't exist either
11:35 <Lucifer_arma> I signed a lease, opened a bank account with a local credit union
11:35 <z-man-work> Anybody could do that
11:35 <Lucifer_arma> she's going to bend the rules and take the lease, the bank account, and a letter I need to get written by someone who knows me
11:35 <Lucifer_arma> she said because of my record, so I guess a 4.0 GPA is worth *something*  :)
11:35 <Luke-Jr> at least you have ID
11:36 <z-man-work> She? The office lady?
11:36 <Lucifer_arma> my washington license still had a year on it when I got here.  When you intend to reside in a place for a considerable amount of time, it matters not if you do the documentation right away
11:37 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, the admissions lady I just talked to on the phone.  It's frustrating because back in November, about two years ago, they said "just the last page of your lease is enough to establish residency"
11:37 <Lucifer_arma> so I didn't even *think* I needed more thn that, right?
11:37 <z-man-work> right
11:37 <Lucifer_arma> this past November, "a bank account and your lease is enough"
11:37 <Luke-Jr> hm
11:37 <Lucifer_arma> so again, no reason to even *think* I needed more
11:37 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if I could get ID with my lease
11:37 <z-man-work> Hooray for the German system, if we don't register with the town six weeks after a move, we're fined.
11:37 <Lucifer_arma> just now, "well, that's not enough either".
11:38 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: sucks
11:38 <Lucifer_arma> technically I'm suppposed to pay a fine for my driver's license renewal, but since I let it expire and took the test fresh, no fine
11:38 <z-man-work> sort of, but it protects us against such mishaps
11:38 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: a lease *should* be enough to prove residency
11:39 <Lucifer_arma> so when I got pissed, she caved and made a compromise that won't be a problem for me.  :)
11:39 <z-man-work> I can imagine that.
11:39 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: getting pissed can sometimes help
11:39 <Lucifer_arma> I understand their reasoning, and I understand that for 99% of the people going to school, it's not a problem.
11:39 <Lucifer_arma> and if I had caved and got a real job when I moved here, it wouldn't have been a problem.  Heh.
11:40 <Luke-Jr> pfft
11:40 <Luke-Jr> self-employment is real
11:40 <Lucifer_arma> you'd think "independent" Texans would respect that.
11:40  * Lucifer_arma wipes sarcasm off his chin
11:41 <Lucifer_arma> maybe they'd have cared if the company I mostly work for wasn't based in California, haha
11:41 <Lucifer_arma> if it was Dell, they'd fall over backwards trying to please me, I shit you not
11:42 <Luke-Jr> grr
11:42 <Luke-Jr> cvs2svn seems to suck somewhat
11:42 <Lucifer_arma> most converters suck somewhat
11:42 <Luke-Jr> apparently it doesn't detect renames/copies, not even for brnaching
11:43 <z-man-work> Umm, because they don't exist in CVS?
11:43 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: it can still detect them
11:43 <Luke-Jr> and *should* for a branch
11:43 <z-man-work> And if two files are just coincidentally equal, making it a move operation would be wrong?
11:43 <Lucifer_arma> it should detect the branch, I think
11:43 <Lucifer_arma> but not copies or renames.  :)
11:44 <Luke-Jr> oh well, I have ~2 weeks to figure something out I guess
11:44 <Lucifer_arma> well, wait a minute.  branching doesn't really exist in svn either, does it?
11:44 <z-man-work> Luke-Jr: what do you mean by "branching" here?
11:45 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: http://beta.armagetronad.net/websvn/log.php?repname=AA&path=%2Fbranches%2Fb0_2_8%2F&rev=0&sc=1&isdir=1
11:45 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: branching is a copy
11:45 <Lucifer_arma> right, but it's fundamentally different in cvs and svn, possibly incompatibly different
11:46 <z-man-work> And it looks like it made b0_2_8 a real branch, there are revisions missing
11:47 <Luke-Jr> at least it seems to have tracked the changes within the branch
11:47 <Luke-Jr> http://beta.armagetronad.net/websvn/log.php?repname=AA&path=%2Fbranches%2Fb0_2_8%2Farmagetronad%2Fsrc%2Ftron%2FgGame.cpp&rev=0&sc=1&isdir=0
11:48 <z-man-work> Oh wait, does "branching does not work" mean that the start point of a branch will look like a new import?
11:48 <Lucifer_arma> it should be a copy operation, shouldn't it?
11:49 <z-man-work> It does seem to preserve the full history
11:50 <z-man-work> http://beta.armagetronad.net/websvn/log.php?repname=AA&path=%2Fbranches%2Fb0_2_8%2Farmagetronad%2Fsrc%2Ftron%2FgGame.cpp&rev=3624&sc=1&page=4
11:50 <z-man-work> There is the branching point
11:50  * Luke-Jr notices the "Show All" link
11:50 <Luke-Jr> oops
11:50 <z-man-work> It's quite a long history :)
11:51 <Luke-Jr> nm
11:51 <Luke-Jr> 2186  /branches/b0_2_8/armagetronad/src/tron/gGame.cpp     287d 23h  4m  This commit was manufactured by cvs2svn to create branch 'b0_2_8'.
11:51 <Luke-Jr> 2102  /trunk/armagetronad/src/tron/gGame.cpp  z-man  300d 18h 18m  Improved exception handling in the ingame menu
11:51 <Lucifer_arma> http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/SvnIntro  <-- should probably link that on the forums
11:52  * z-man-work is now really away
11:52 <Lucifer_arma> I don't know that I like the way tags are handled by svn
11:52 <Luke-Jr> ...
11:52 <Luke-Jr> why
11:53 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: WAIT!
11:53 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: are we dropping the Root tags?
11:53 <z-man-work> Would they be required to get to the root of a branch?
11:53 <Lucifer_arma> well, it's supposed to be a pointer to a snapshot of the source, right?  not the same thing as a copy of the snapshot at that time
11:53 <z-man-work> If yes, no, if no, then yes :)
11:53 <Lucifer_arma> no, they're not, I don't think
11:53 <z-man-work> I don't think, either
11:53 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: no, you'd just need to note the revision that the branch was made
11:54 <Lucifer_arma> iirc, I read on the svn site that to get to the root of the branch, just look in the log to the revision that starts the branch
11:54 <z-man-work> Then they're junk
11:54 <Lucifer_arma> then check out that revision
11:54 <z-man-work> Lucifer_arma: yes, I'd imagine that would be possible
11:54 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: a copy is a pointer in Svn
11:54 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: until you modify something in the copy
11:55 <Lucifer_arma> right, I think the root tags thing shows what tags are for :)
11:55 <Lucifer_arma> you not only go to the root of the branch, but you go there and then step forward from it
11:55 <z-man-work> Err, no
11:55 <Lucifer_arma> which, granted, is probably still possible starting with a copy
11:55 <Lucifer_arma> no?
11:55 <z-man-work> The Root_ tags are on the parent branch
11:55 <z-man-work> At least the ones I created manually
11:56 <z-man-work> I don't know about the ones Eclipse made
11:56 <Lucifer_arma> ahhhhh.  Ok.  doesn't change what I meant, but ok, I didn't really know what the Root_ tags were then :)
11:56 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: so you would rather delete the openAL branch instead of do a merge from HEAD?
11:56 <Lucifer_arma> Luke-Jr: yes
11:56 <Luke-Jr> ok
11:56 <z-man-work> Gaa, don't merge things from HEAD into branches
11:56 <Luke-Jr> so how about b0_2_7_1_recording, b0_2_7_1_netcode, b0_2_7_0_netcode, b0_2_7_0_invisiblewalls, aardvark_automake_br
11:56 <z-man-work> All merged back
11:57 <Luke-Jr> so delete?
11:57 <z-man-work> yes
11:57 <Luke-Jr> ok
11:57  * z-man-work hopes Luke-Jr is taking notes
11:57 <Luke-Jr> done w/ the arma modules, then
11:57  * Luke-Jr is
11:57 <Lucifer_arma> actually, the way I'm thinking about handling OpenAL, if it works out, means I won't need a branch anyway
11:57 <Luke-Jr> o
11:57  * Lucifer_arma keeps two logs of the channel, and grep is the best note-taker
11:58 <Luke-Jr> grep loses context ;)
11:58 <Lucifer_arma> -B -A :)
11:58 <z-man-work> grep -C 10 ?
11:59 <Lucifer_arma> haha.  I pissed off my government teacher when he said something, then I told him that was different than what he'd said 2 weeks ago, and he said it wasn't,
11:59 <Lucifer_arma> so I grepped my notes and read off exactly what he said 2 weeks ago.  :)
12:00 <Lucifer_arma> man, I need to write my notetaker program.  I want it to record at the same time and timestamp notes, so in that situation I could have even played the recording for him to hear himself saying it.
12:00 <Lucifer_arma> but alas, no note-taker program yet
12:02 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: IIRC, you have questions on the forum =p
12:03 <Luke-Jr> yeah... winlibs stuff
12:05 <z-man-work> winlibs is closely coupled to our releases
12:05 <z-man-work> You can't build 0.2.8 with winlibs 0.2.7
12:05 <z-man-work> you may have a chance to build 0.2.7 with winlibs 0.2.8, but it's slim :)
12:06 <z-man-work> Yeah, it's just a collection of librarties, but quite essential for the convenience of the Windows builders
12:06 <Lucifer_arma> seems like in the future we should "tag" winlibs with codenames :)
12:07 <z-man-work> Because it's HELL to install and use libraries in Win :)
12:07 <Lucifer_arma> so you'd need Artemis winlibs to build Artemis (0.2.8), and bachus winlibs to build head, until we release bacchus
12:07 <z-man-work> IIRC, there were minor changes to winlibs even in b0_2_8
12:08 <z-man-work> minor == reverting from SDL 1.2.9 to 1.2.7
12:08 <Lucifer_arma> right, so there'd be a latest revision of winlibs under Artemis
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12:08 <Lucifer_arma> and an earlier revision, eh?
12:08  * Lucifer_arma doesn't know the full scope of the problem, mind you.
12:08 <z-man-work> minded
12:08 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: and the libs aren't at least theoretically interchangable?
12:08 <z-man-work> theoretically, they are
12:09 <Lucifer_arma> wasn't the SDl reversion because of an SDL bug?
12:09 <z-man-work> yes
12:09 <z-man-work> Although reverting probably didn't fix it
12:09 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: so perhaps split winlibs into tags/trunk?
12:09 <z-man-work> or it wasn't done properly, anyway, it wasn't an important bug
12:09 <Luke-Jr> or do you need branches?
12:10 <z-man-work> yes, winlibs needs branches
12:10 <z-man-work> what's the problem with treating it exactly like armagetronad_build?
12:10 <Lucifer_arma> well, assuming it worked for the sake of discussion, the libraries are interchangeable, just that iwth one verison you might be affected by a certain bug caused by the underlying library, right?
12:10 <z-man-work> ok, assuming that
12:10 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: if I checkout the entire 'armagetronad' project trunk, I'd rather not get dlls =p
12:11  * Lucifer_arma notes that dll's in windows don't suffer the same ABI problems so's in Linux suffer from
12:11 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: the only shared object with such problems I have seen is DirectFB =p
12:11 <guru3> abi?
12:11 <guru3> all bullshit industries?
12:11 <guru3> x)
12:11 <Luke-Jr> guru3: binary compatibility
12:11 <guru3> aw :( that's no fun
12:11 <z-man-work> Luke-Jr: yes, that's a point
12:11 <Lucifer_arma> aliases are needed.  It would be nice if you could have an alias to check out all that's needed for windows :)
12:11 <z-man-work> hmm
12:12 <z-man-work> aliases would be cool
12:12 <Lucifer_arma> guru3: ABI is the format of the library, or something like that.  It's why you can't link to a library built with gcc 2.9 while building with gcc 4.0
12:12 <z-man-work> but I suppose you'd need symlinks for that
12:12 <Lucifer_arma> guru3: at least, for C++ libraries, anyway
12:12 <guru3> they're only called aliases in osx. links in *nix and shortcuts in windows
12:12 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: because GCC 2.9's ABI had bugs =p
12:12 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: those bugs were all resolved in 3.3 or such, IIRC
12:13 <Lucifer_arma> and gcc 3.0, nd gcc 3.1, and gcc 3.2, and what a fucking mess
12:13 <Luke-Jr> so don't use pre-3.3
12:13 <z-man-work> Aw, I give in. If both Luke-Jr and Lucifer_arma say winlibs isn't equal to the _build things, than it can stay out
12:13 <Lucifer_arma> as usual Luke, that's orthogonal to the discussion
12:13 <z-man-work> then
12:13 <Lucifer_arma> eh?  keeping in mind that I don't know the scope of the problem, heh :)
12:14  * Luke-Jr notes neither Lucifer_arma nor Luke-Jr use Windoze ;)
12:14 <z-man-work> Yes, but what you said was nevertheless true
12:14 <Luke-Jr> ok
12:14 <Lucifer_arma> anyway, my point about ABI was that you don't have that problem with dll's in windows, just the link libraries, and Microsoft intentionally changes those to break compatibility for other compilers :)
12:15 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: actually, you do sometimes
12:15 <Luke-Jr> I can't use a MingW DLL from Cygwin
12:15 <z-man-work> Would SVN allow it to check the entire "armagetronad" trunk with all _build subdirectories, and put winlibs *into* that checkout?
12:15 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: probably
12:16 <Lucifer_arma> Luke-Jr: gcc problems again.  :)
12:16 <z-man-work> Not so important, anyway, there would be no loss of comfort if I'd have to check out armagetronad, armagetronad_build_codeblocks and armagetronad_winlibs separately
12:16 <z-man-work> because that's what I have to do in CVS
12:16 <Lucifer_arma> seems like if we could put symlinks into svn, we could solve that problem
12:17 <z-man-work> Windows doesn't have symlinks
12:17 <z-man-work> last time I checked, anyway
12:17 <Lucifer_arma> windows doesn't need it, the client doesn't need it at all.
12:17 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: Svn supports symlinks, but only under *nix
12:17 <guru3> i have to know about the psychology of dysfunctional behaivour tomorrow :/
12:17 <Lucifer_arma> because you'd check out a symlink, but get the underlying directories.
12:17 <z-man-work> guru3: you've come to the right place :)
12:17 <Luke-Jr> Lucifer_arma: if you checkout a symlink under windoze, you get nothing
12:17 <Lucifer_arma> or rather, in my world, that's how it would work
12:17 <guru3> lol z-man
12:17 <Luke-Jr> complain to Svn idiots
12:18 <Lucifer_arma> if you checked out a symlink you'd get the file/directory itself instead :)
12:18  * Lucifer_arma looks at the purple sky.  My world rules!
12:18 <Lucifer_arma> guru3: what do you have to know about dysfunctional behavior?
12:19  * z-man-work is really really away?
12:19 <Luke-Jr> z-man-work: aww
12:19 <Luke-Jr> no you're not
12:19 <z-man-work> what else?
12:19 <z-man-work> It's late and I want to go swimming after I finish some work up
12:20 <Lucifer_arma> that sounds like you'll get contaminated by the evil sunrays
12:20 <z-man-work> darn, that makes Luke-Jr right
12:20 <Lucifer_arma> hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day
12:20 <z-man-work> Lucifer_arma: unfortunately, the outside pool is still closed because the harsh winter demolished quite a lot of tiles
12:21 <guru3> Lucifer_arma: lots :/
12:23 <guru3> like anorexia falls into that category
12:26 <Lucifer_arma> hey, you know, I don't have any problems checking out a whole slew of dll's--if it'll make it easier for windows developers to get involved in development
12:26 <Lucifer_arma> or testers.
12:26  * Lucifer_arma is thinking of Self_Destructo trying to build armagetron
12:26 <guru3> i just found some ASM in my psy notes Oo
12:26 <guru3> musta been when i was researching asm for my calc ><
12:26 <Lucifer_arma> because it's a one-time checkout, right?
12:27 <guru3> you need to depressed for TWO weeks before anyone cares :D
12:27 <Lucifer_arma> well guru3, I don't think I can help you with this one for two reasons.  :)  1: need specific range, and 2: it's been a year since I took my psych class, I couldn't give answers in the detail you need anyway
12:27 <guru3> that's the official diagnostic criteriea
12:27 <Lucifer_arma> only 2 weeks?
12:27 <guru3> according to DSM4
12:27 <Lucifer_arma> it's just like you have to be missing for 24 hours before the cops care :)
12:28 <z-man-work> Lucifer_arma: yeah, but you also get updates etc. No, it doesn't make life of Developers significantly easier.
12:28 <guru3> and you can't be depressed if you've had a manic episode
12:28 <guru3> i love this categorization
12:28 <guru3> it's hillarious
12:28 <guru3> it's like playing monopoly :D
12:28 <guru3> you're not allowed to be depressed if someone's died you know
12:29 <guru3> or if you're psycotic or schizophrenic
12:30 <guru3> and if you're not impared by your depression you're not depressed :D
12:30 <guru3> and you have to feel guilty
12:31 <guru3> and if you're depressed there's a 5% chance that it's cause there's something even more screwed up with you
12:31 <guru3> this stuff just kills me :D
12:31 <guru3> and watch out being depressed over 55%
12:31 <guru3> you've got a 60% chance of comitting suicide!
12:31 <guru3> yikes!
12:32 <Lucifer_arma> I found studying depression was in itself a depressing experience
12:32 <guru3> get this
12:32 <guru3> you can't get depression from street drugs
12:32 <guru3> but using street drugs makes depression worse
12:32 <guru3> oh what a fun merry go round!
12:32 <Lucifer_arma> z-man-work: updates are few and far between, though.  but if it doesn't help much....
12:33 <guru3> g2g dinner
12:33 <guru3> bbl
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12:49 <Luke-Jr> any win dev here? z-man-work ?
12:50 <Luke-Jr> is winlibs specific to build/visualc?
13:07 <guru3> back
13:17 <Lucifer_arma> holy shit.  I got an 89 on the test I intentionally bombed, and a 92 on the test I intentionally didn't bomb.
13:18 <Lucifer_arma> luckily the 89 was dropped, as I knew it would be which is why I intentionally bombed it, but man.  Only a 3 point difference?  I'm not sure what's scarier,
13:18 <Lucifer_arma> the fact that I intentionally bombed with an 89, or the fact that I actually worked for a 92.
13:18 <Lucifer_arma> (Texas Government, otherwise a blow-off class)
13:20 <guru3> what the heck is the point of that class anyway?
13:20 <Lucifer_arma> requirements of the Texas Legislature
13:20 <Lucifer_arma> 6 credits of US GOvernment, of which 3 may be Texas Government
13:21 <Lucifer_arma> that goes along with 6 credits of History, 3 of math, and some others, to get a 4-year degree in Texas
13:21 <guru3> that's... odd
13:21 <Lucifer_arma> so the requirements exist for any college/university in the state
13:21 <Lucifer_arma> why odd?  Makes sense to me.
13:21 <Lucifer_arma> irritating, but sensible
13:22 <guru3> oh i dunno
13:22 <guru3> sounds boring
13:22 <Luke-Jr> do you get to learn how to overthrow the US gov't?
13:22 <Lucifer_arma> it is.  But for a democracy/republic to work, citizens have to be educated on how it works
13:22 <Lucifer_arma> Luke-Jr: those classes are reserved for government majors
13:22 <Luke-Jr> last I checked, college isn't required
13:22 <Lucifer_arma> no it's not.  :)
13:23 <Luke-Jr> and in fact, those who do go to college are generally brainwashed to do what the gov't wants anyway
13:23 <Lucifer_arma> but if you have to know more history and math to get a degree than you did to get a diploma, why not require extending government knowledge as well?
13:23 <Luke-Jr> shouldn't need those either
13:23 <Lucifer_arma> ironically, the history legislation was passed because UT alumni is a powerful interest group in Texas.  :)  It's basically welfare for history teachers.
13:24 <Lucifer_arma> I disagree.  A college education implies greater ability in certain areas that studying history and math provide.
13:24 <Lucifer_arma> of course, the reason I know the history legislation was passed was because I took the Texas Government class and learned it there.  :)
13:25 <Luke-Jr> what does anything beyond 50 years of history help with computer science?
13:25 <Lucifer_arma> depends on how narrow your focus is.  I'm working in the CRM field, specifically CRM/CMS, and having an understanding of different cultures is an advantage
13:25 <Lucifer_arma> also, having an understanding of why certain business operate like they do is also an advantage
13:26 <Luke-Jr> see, I wouldn't consider geography/cultures to be history
13:26 <Lucifer_arma> so, having an understanding in US History gives me a good baseline and reduces the amount I have to learn fresh
13:26 <Lucifer_arma> well, you can't really study a culture without its history.
13:27 <Lucifer_arma> you can learn all about a Compaq Presario R3000, but if you know history of computers 1980+, you know a lot more about my laptop than you'd have if you only studied it by itself
13:29 <Lucifer_arma> heh, besides that, I'm after aerospace engineering anyway, and a good knowledge of at least the last 300 years of history will be very helpful
13:30 <Lucifer_arma> without it, I might be inclined to sell my abilities to the highest bidder, regardless of who they are.  Which could result in me developing rockets that cause a lot of people to die...
13:49 -!- wrtl_web_broken [n=55e92ad5@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has joined #armagetron
13:49 <wrtl_web_broken> Luke: winlibs is specific to windows, but can be used with both codeblocks and visualc
13:50 <wrtl_web_broken> at least that's my view of it, never having compiled on windows myself
14:02 -!- guru3 [n=guru3@2002:51e7:e65f:1:0:0:0:1] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
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14:15 <Lucifer_arma> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4987116.stm
14:15 <Lucifer_arma> In the UK, leading Catholics also demanded a "health warning" after a survey of 1,000 people suggested that reading the original book could undermine a belief in Christian traditions.
14:46 <GodTodd> if anything undermines your belief system, was it truly your belief system in the first place?
15:10 -!- z-man-home [n=manuel@p508700CF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #armagetron
15:10 -!- Lackadaisical [n=lack@ipd50aa335.speed.planet.nl] has joined #armagetron
15:14 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, you know, I was thinking that most of the really freaking devout people I've known of any faith would never find their faith shattered by a movie
15:14 <Lucifer_arma> and why should they?  It's just a freaking movie!
15:15 <Lucifer_arma> you're talking about faith supported by real life experiences, whatever you or I may think of it, it's still supported by real life experiences, frequently traumatic in the really devout folks I'e known
15:15 <Lucifer_arma> Come on, the man that did 9 years in prison for attempted murder because they couldn't prove he actually killed the guy, just that he tried, while junked up on heroin,
15:16 <Lucifer_arma> then found Jesus in jail and turned his life around is *not* going to have his faith changed by this movied
15:16 <Lucifer_arma> *movie
15:16 <Lucifer_arma> and then Christianity has built-in guards for this sort of thing anyway, including some pretty harsh penalties for those who try to shake a Christian's faith
15:17 <Lucifer_arma> add it all up, and I think the position churches tend to take over blasphemous movies only weakens them
15:17 <Lucifer_arma> and these protests don't make them look a whole lot different than the "protestors" over the muhammed cartoons, except they haven't killed anybody--yet
15:18 -!- n54 [n=n54@138.80-203-102.nextgentel.com] has joined #armagetron
15:19  * Lucifer_arma politely greets n54
15:20  * n54 is shocked but manages to say:
15:20 <n54> hi
15:20 <n54> what's with the politeness? *extremely curious*
15:21 <Lucifer_arma> passively-aggressively poking fun at z-man-home :)
15:21 -!- spider_ [n=spider@68-114-142-146.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #armagetron
15:21 -!- McSpiddles [n=spider@68-114-142-146.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
15:21  * Lucifer_arma is a big believer in good manners, it may surprise you to learn.
15:22 <n54> I'm not sure I'm surprised about that really
15:22 <Lucifer_arma> damn.  I just realized I've committed myself to spend the next 2 hours on the phone with parts guys
15:23 <n54> auto parts?
15:23 <Lucifer_arma> well, you know, gruff exteriors notwithstanding, mutual respect shown outwardly goes a long way to mediate any disagreements
15:23 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, auto parts
15:23 <Lucifer_arma> I just pulled the wheels off my celica to see what I needed for brakes
15:24 <Lucifer_arma> the brakes aren't bad, really.  Rotors probably won't turn again, but the hydraulics are all in good shape, pads and shoes worn evenly
15:24 <Lucifer_arma> if the rotors weren't chewed up a bit, I'd be tempted to just pad slap her and get it on
15:24 <n54> yeah I agree on that but I do understand that it can wear thin and then it's better to be honet imo
15:24 <n54> honest*
15:24 <Lucifer_arma> but alas, the tread is starting to separate from one of the tires.
15:24  * Lucifer_arma invites n54 to politely fuck off
15:24 <Lucifer_arma> see what I mean?  :)
15:24 <n54> hehe
15:25 <Lucifer_arma> I'm not saying manners are a substitute for honest relations...
15:25 <Lucifer_arma> so I need two new tires added to the parts list
15:25 <n54> yeah I know
15:25 <Lucifer_arma> I already intended to price a starter and power steering pump, two components known to be going bad but not bad yet
15:25 <Lucifer_arma> and I'd pretty much decided on a new battery, although I'd feel a lot better about replacing the battery if the starter were replaced as well
15:25 <n54> however I think you go a bit hard at Luke sometimes
15:26 <n54> not that I should say anything really
15:26 <Lucifer_arma> "mutual respect shown"
15:26 <Lucifer_arma> that was a requirement, remember?
15:27 <Lucifer_arma> I won't disagree with you, but I likely won't regret it either.  Whenever I've encountered skulls as thick as his, I've found that there's very little you can do about it
15:27 <n54> I'm not saying it doesn't take two to "fight" - it always does :)
15:27 <Lucifer_arma> if you've got a better way, I'd like to see it.  However my own experience indicates that extreme hostility will either cause him to rethink his attitudes and possibly correct his behavior,
15:27 <Lucifer_arma> or chase him out.
15:27 <Lucifer_arma> and even if I get chased out as a result of the whole thing, project's better off no matter what.
15:28 <n54> sometimes time does help but as I said I really shouldn't say anything about it
15:28  * Lucifer_arma rips into n54 :)
15:28 <n54> :)
15:28 <Lucifer_arma> I've faced down some pretty tough people and seen some amazing results.  :)
15:28 <Lucifer_arma> otoh, I've seen plenty of people walk away and even gotten myself in hot water on occasion
15:29 <n54> I'm not in the cat-herding business so... :D
15:29 <Lucifer_arma> heh
15:29 <Lucifer_arma> you wouldn't happen to know how I can reference cells absolutely in OO.o, would you?
15:30 <n54> in openoffice? absolutely no idea, but they like to me office-like so perhaps $A$1 ?
15:30 <n54> be*
15:31 <Lucifer_arma> heh.  How do you do it in excel, then?  :)
15:31 <Lucifer_arma> that's how it's done in KDE, I'll try it
15:31 <n54> it's been years since I had anything to do with that sort of stuff though so...
15:31 <Lucifer_arma> er, KSpread
15:31 <n54> ah ok
15:31 <Lucifer_arma> well, I'm going to call no less than 3 parts houses, and, well, spreadsheet, obviously
15:31 <n54> $A$1 in excel too iirc
15:31 <n54> aha, smart
15:32  * n54 used to certify/teach people in that kind of stuff but I'e forgotten it all
15:38 <Lucifer_arma> wound up setting it up without that need
15:38 <Lucifer_arma> realized I needed core charges in there too
15:39 <n54> ?
15:41 <Lucifer_arma> um, when you buy a remanufactured part, they want your old part, whatever it is
15:41 <Lucifer_arma> then they take your old part and stick it in a factory where they take it apart, measure all components of it and throw out whatever's bad
15:41 <GodTodd> they want that even if you buy a battery new tho
15:41 <n54> oh
15:41 <Lucifer_arma> whatever's good they put in a pile (essentially).  Then they order new parts to replace all the broken parts and put that all on the assembly line
15:42 <Lucifer_arma> hence the work Remanufactured
15:42 <Lucifer_arma> batteries are different.  Those are recycling costs, because you can't just toss your battery in the garbage
15:42 <Lucifer_arma> *word
15:42 <GodTodd> right
15:43 <n54> any of you been to those airplane graveyards? (guess it might only be in south california?)
15:43 <GodTodd> been a while since i bought a computer monitor...do they do the core charge thing too?  since you can't just throw them away either legally?
15:43 <Lucifer_arma> not that I know of, GodTodd.  I've never bought a computer monitor, though.  :)
15:44 <Lucifer_arma> n54: no, I haven't been to one of those
15:44 <n54> no I don't think so, they try to recucle materials only afaik
15:44 <GodTodd> i have...one....many years ago
15:44 <n54> recycle*
15:44 <Lucifer_arma> I've checked out some boat salvage yards, though
15:44 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, salvage yards are similar.  You just get used parts from them, known good parts, but used nonetheless
15:44 <Lucifer_arma> whatever's left they crush and recycle
15:44  * Lucifer_arma used to work on a salvage yard
15:44 <GodTodd> like auto UPull It places...
15:45 <Lucifer_arma> and if my employer hadn't been such a jerk, it would have been the best time I'd ever had
15:45 <Lucifer_arma> nah, UPull is attractive, but you get a higher percentage of parts that don't work
15:45 <Lucifer_arma> good for body parts, but then I don't want to go out to a yard and pull fenders and doors and crap
15:45 <GodTodd> very true....all i ever pulled from them was door handles for my old 85 Omni heh
15:45 <Lucifer_arma> I think it's well worth the extra price to pay professionals to do all that for me.  :)
15:46 <GodTodd> for 80% off...i did them myself and was happy :D
15:46 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, well, door handles, pfft.  2 minutes
15:46 <Lucifer_arma> for both :)
15:46 <GodTodd> exactly
15:46 <GodTodd> nah...4 :P
15:46 <GodTodd> lol
15:47 <Lucifer_arma> I got to where I could take a fully assembled door and get the glass, window regulator, and handle out of it in like 30 seconds
15:47 <GodTodd> wasn't paying 20$ for one handle for a bucket o' bolts
15:47 <Lucifer_arma> 45 seconds if the door was stuck shut (like against a wall or something)
15:50 <GodTodd> i need to find a junk car that i can just tear apart....learn how it all works and goes back together....to learn the basics....haven't found the time yet
15:51 <Lucifer_arma> don't tell me Van's is out of business!?!?
15:51 <GodTodd> ok...i won't
15:51 <Lucifer_arma> oh no, wait a minute, I limited my search to Round Rock, that's right
15:51 <Lucifer_arma> Van's doesn't have a location up here
15:52 <Lucifer_arma> yay, so Advanced, van's, and ummm, the 'zone
15:53 <Lucifer_arma> I forgot, most of these guys have their catalogs online.  I don't have to call anybody :)
16:09 <wrtlprnft> grr wrtl_web_broken is still there...
16:10 -!- wrtl_web_broken [n=55e92ad5@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has quit ["CGI:IRC (EOF)"]
16:10 <wrtlprnft> :)
16:10 <n54> :)
16:11 <wrtlprnft> I just don't like the fact that i need to restart my webserver for that...
16:11 <Lucifer_arma> #g 18.99+12.88+14.99+22.99
16:11 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 18.99 + 12.88 + 14.99 + 22.99 = 69.85
16:12 <n54> oh... yeah there must be a better way
16:12 <Lucifer_arma> so, for the equivalent of a Just Brakes 4-wheel friction reline for 99.88 (in most cases) + front hardware and front rotors, I'm looking at 69.85
16:12 <Lucifer_arma> hmm, take it to just brakes or do it myself....
16:12 <Lucifer_arma> hmmmmmmmmm...................
16:13 <Lucifer_arma> (that joke's probably only funny if you're in an area that got saturated with Just Brakes commercials ~5 years ago)
16:13 <n54> *woosh* here
16:14 <Lucifer_arma> Our system is having trouble finding  Brakes . We're sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.
16:15 <n54> heh
16:16 -!- Lackadaisical [n=lack@ipd50aa335.speed.planet.nl] has quit ["hey how you doin"]
16:17 <wrtlprnft> :D
16:17 <wrtlprnft> I'm getting better at killing spam on the wiki :)
16:18 <wrtlprnft> the trouble is that it's still there for about 4 hours... that's plenty of time for a search engine to index it
16:18 <wrtlprnft> which is exactly what those bastards want :(
16:18 <n54> hmm, I wonder how wikipedia deals with it
16:20 <wrtlprnft> well
16:20 <wrtlprnft> they have waaaay more users
16:20 <wrtlprnft> obvious spam like that survives about 30 seconds
16:20 <wrtlprnft> since there's always someone somewhere in the world checking the recent changes
16:22 <Lucifer_arma> is it possible to make a column in OO.o that doesn't scroll with the bottom scrollbar?
16:22 <n54> ah ok so it's just an issue of human reaction.... perhaps one could automate quarantine of users who post links in their first post ever? (would include quarantining all following posts as well until the quarantine is lifted)
16:23 <Lucifer_arma> actually, I'm in favor of exercising the nuclear option with spammers
16:23 <wrtlprnft> I dunno
16:24 <n54> in a spreadsheat Lucifer? hmm there should be...
16:24 <wrtlprnft> i think it would be enough to hack the user registration page a bit
16:24 <Lucifer_arma> captcha will probably help whenever I get it on there
16:24 <wrtlprnft> just change the name of the username field, then automated spambots for mediawiki have no chance
16:24 <Lucifer_arma> that's kinda assuming they use the name of the username field
16:25 <wrtlprnft> capchas always have that nasti accessibility issue
16:25 <wrtlprnft> well
16:25 <n54> if you want to change that name just make it an alias rather than have to change the name everywhere (in tables etc.)
16:25 <wrtlprnft> they somehow have to register the spam user
16:25 <Lucifer_arma> username and password fields are usually linked somehow, so you can just look for password type and te the textbox before it for username
16:25 <n54> alias can be used for the pw too
16:25 <wrtlprnft> well then
16:25 <Lucifer_arma> I thought about the accessibility issue with captchas, and I don't think it'll be a problem for us.
16:25 <wrtlprnft> put another inputbox between them and hide it with CSS
16:25 <Lucifer_arma> if you have a hard time seeing the captcha, chances are pretty good you'd have a hard time playing the game in the first place :)
16:26 <wrtlprnft> true
16:26 <Lucifer_arma> and if that's not true, then I'll be happy to help anyone having problems dealing with the capcha
16:26 <wrtlprnft> maybe put a big notice somewhere
16:26 <Lucifer_arma> n54: it's the <input type="password" part that we can't get around
16:27 <wrtlprnft> then, on the other hand bots get smart and learn to read capchas
16:27 <n54> hmm yeah didn't think of that... still if one has multiple ones (some of which are hidden and discarded that might throw off the bots
16:27 <n54> perhaps that was what wrtlprnft already said?
16:27 <wrtlprnft> yes, indeed
16:27 <Lucifer_arma> no, they'd probably just fill them all with something that's the same, heh
16:28 <wrtlprnft> then...
16:28 <n54> ok but that should be easy to check for right?
16:28  * n54 thinks that would work
16:28 <Lucifer_arma> we're assuming the bots are reading the form in the first place, of course.  If they're not, then we can just rename the fields and we're fine, for awhile anyway
16:28 <wrtlprnft> make a field and put a text beside it, "please type the word 'armagetron' into this field"?
16:28 <n54> like checking that only password number 4 was filled in
16:29 <n54> they are probably reading the form
16:29 <wrtlprnft> like, captcha that everyone can deal with
16:29 <Lucifer_arma> n54: the solution from the bot-writers is to fill them all in with exactly the same data
16:29 <n54> yeah Lucifer but the point is that humans wouldn't
16:29 <n54> they'd only use one of them
16:29 <n54> (the displayed one)
16:29 <Lucifer_arma> aha, I get you
16:30 <n54> this was wrtlprnft idea though :)
16:30 <Lucifer_arma> ok, I like that one
16:30 <Lucifer_arma> where's the patch?
16:30 <wrtlprnft> i think even the simplest way would be sufficient as long there's enough stupid people with an unhacked wiki
16:30 <wrtlprnft> well
16:30 <n54> in wrtlprnft's fingers? :)
16:30 <wrtlprnft> i won't write a patch for an outdated version of mediawiki... maybe upgrade? :D
16:31 <Lucifer_arma> ah, I see how it is
16:31 <n54> just hack the front page imo ;) *quick & dirty makes the day* ;P
16:31  * Lucifer_arma has a car to fix
16:31 <wrtlprnft> well... can you send me the wiki dir as a tar?
16:31 <wrtlprnft> i doubt i can get the exact version you have
16:32 <n54> probably good idea so as to avoid unnecessary work
16:32 <n54> the tar that is
16:33 <Lucifer_arma> that's not bad, $28 for a tire
16:33 <n54> new?
16:34 <Lucifer_arma> of course new
16:34 <n54> good ;)
16:34 <Lucifer_arma> I already have used tires.  :)
16:35 <Lucifer_arma> so, my wishlist is 368.25
16:35 <Lucifer_arma> #g 368.25 * 1.0865
16:35 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 368.25 * 1.0865 = 400.103625
16:35 <Lucifer_arma> ~400 with tax
16:37 <wrtlprnft> nice round taxes you have
16:37 <wrtlprnft> 8.65% O_o
16:37 <n54> hehe
16:38 <Lucifer_arma> #g 368.25 * 1.08
16:38 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 368.25 * 1.08 = 397.71
16:38 <Lucifer_arma> see the difference?
16:38 <Lucifer_arma> #g 3.41 * 1000000
16:38 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 3.41 * 1,000,000 = 3,410,000
16:38 <Lucifer_arma> That's an extra 3.4 million dollars for the city of Austin
16:40 <Lucifer_arma> $47 for the other car :(
16:40 <GodTodd> capitalism at its finest....you make more getting a little from many than a lot from a few :D
16:40 <n54> :)
16:41 <Lucifer_arma> 465.25 including 2 tires for the camry
16:41 <Lucifer_arma> #g 465.25 * 1.0865
16:41 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 465.25 * 1.0865 = 505.494125
16:41 <Lucifer_arma> damn, an extra hundred bucks
16:41 <Lucifer_arma> my wife's gonna bitch about the power steering pump, starter, and battery for tht price
16:42 <wrtlprnft> well... actually 1.65 would be rounded up, eh?
16:42 <wrtlprnft> so be happy :D
16:42 <n54> my thought too wrtlprnft :D
16:42 <Lucifer_arma> a dollar and 65 cents?  Rounded up?
16:42 <n54> $2
16:42 <wrtlprnft> 1.56% i mean
16:42 -!- SD|away is now known as Self_Destructo
16:42 <Self_Destructo> hi everyone
16:42 <wrtlprnft> 1.65% i mean
16:42 <wrtlprnft> morning
16:42 <n54> hi SD :)
16:42 <Self_Destructo> lol
16:43 <Self_Destructo> not morning
16:43 <wrtlprnft> whatever
16:43 <wrtlprnft> morning in australia i think
16:43 <Self_Destructo> i guess so
16:43 <wrtlprnft> yeah, australia and russia
16:43  * wrtlprnft likes kWorldClock
16:43 <n54> nah not russia/asia
16:44 <wrtlprnft> yeah, china/japan and friends
16:44 <n54> sure?
16:44 <wrtlprnft> ?
16:44  * n54 would have figured more like mid-day
16:44 <n54> not important :)
16:45 <wrtlprnft> http://wrtlprnft.azj
16:45 <wrtlprnft> http://wrtlprnft.ath.cx/world.png
16:47 <Lucifer_arma> #g 900+1350
16:47 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 900 + 1,350 = 2,250
16:47 <Lucifer_arma> damn.  Not the greatest month's pay, but I guess that's what's coming.  :(
16:48 <n54> ok wrtlprnft :)
16:50 -!- Nixda885 [n=593703bb@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has joined #armagetron
16:50 <Nixda885> hi
16:50 <n54> hi
16:50 -!- Nixda885 [n=593703bb@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has quit [Client Quit]
16:50 <n54> drive-by hello :|
16:51 <GodTodd> and you were hit :D
16:52 <n54> hehe :)
16:56 -!- Nixda574 [n=184df2ab@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has joined #armagetron
16:56 <Nixda574> hi
16:56 -!- Nixda574 [n=184df2ab@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has quit [Client Quit]
16:57 <wrtlprnft> no wonder why that guy left
16:57 <GodTodd> they missed us all that time :D
16:57 <wrtlprnft> the second one was me, and it disconnected all by itself
16:57 <GodTodd> hmmm\
16:58 <n54> you use the same isp?
16:58 <wrtlprnft> no
16:58 <wrtlprnft> http://armagetron.nixda.net/
16:59 <wrtlprnft> click on chat
16:59 <n54> ok that explains it
16:59  * n54 didn't click on chat
17:00 -!- Nixda000 [n=a228aced@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has joined #armagetron
17:00 <wrtlprnft> hi there
17:00 <n54> the webchat doesn't work nix
17:00 <Nixda000> heh
17:00 <Nixda000> yes it does
17:00 <Nixda000> this is SD
17:00 -!- Nixda314 [n=184df2ab@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has joined #armagetron
17:00 <Nixda314> tryin again...
17:00 -!- Nixda394 [n=47c7cc90@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has joined #armagetron
17:01 <n54> ...
17:01 <Nixda314> lots of usery
17:01 <Nixda314> s
17:01 <Nixda000> lol
17:01 <Nixda314> hmm, now it doesn't disconnect me
17:01  * Nixda314 thinks we should all get nicks like that
17:01 <Nixda000> lol
17:01 <wrtlprnft> Nixda314: test
17:01 -!- Nixda000 [n=a228aced@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has left #armagetron []
17:01 -!- Nixda314 [n=184df2ab@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has quit [Client Quit]
17:01 -!- Nixda394 [n=47c7cc90@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has quit [Client Quit]
17:04 <Lucifer_arma> y'all know that was joda, right?
17:05 <wrtlprnft> i know it's joda's site
17:05 <Lucifer_arma> hmm, now that I think about it, it might have been someone else, heh
17:05 <Lucifer_arma> he's probably been telling people about it
17:05 <wrtlprnft> well
17:05 <wrtlprnft> that site has a few visitors and is linked from aa.net
17:05 <Lucifer_arma> #g 289.78 * 1.065
17:05 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 289.78 * 1.06500 = 308.6157
17:05 <Lucifer_arma> that's not bad.  Knocks almost 200 off the price
17:06 <Lucifer_arma> and my wife's not bitching about me wanting to replace parts that aren't technically broken yet
17:06 <wrtlprnft> so anyone might go to that site, switch to chat, log in, decide not to say anything useful, and leave again
17:06 <wrtlprnft> or it was psyko and as he saw Lucifer_arma and wrtlprnft he left
17:06 <Lucifer_arma> probably helps that I volunteered to charge the battery and see how bad the starter was
17:07 <wrtlprnft> *and he left
17:07 <Lucifer_arma> heh, I can't imagine psyko chickening out here.  Seems like he'd stay and troll
17:07 <wrtlprnft> true
17:07 <Lucifer_arma> GodTodd: you try the game yet?
17:07 <Self_Destructo> lol, yeah
17:07 <wrtlprnft> someone should gently direct 2020 to that site if he wants to talk about the ladle
17:08 <GodTodd> armagetron?
17:08 <wrtlprnft> armagetronad!
17:08 <GodTodd> :P
17:08 <wrtlprnft> important difference
17:08 <GodTodd> i play it every now and again
17:09 <Lucifer_arma> #g 195.78 * 1.0865
17:09 <armabot> Lucifer_arma: 195.78 * 1.0865 = 212.71497
17:09 <Lucifer_arma> that's without tires for the camry
17:10 <Lucifer_arma> 412.71 with the state documentation needed to be legal
17:11 <Lucifer_arma> GodTodd: you use this nickname or another one?  Heh.  Play network game?
17:11 <GodTodd> i use this one...just checked...must have been a while cuz i don't have the game installed on this laptop heh
17:12 <Lucifer_arma> damn slow-ass charger.  It's a 1 amp charger.  It'll take forever!  I want to know *now* if the starter's any good!
17:13 <Lucifer_arma> 2 amp is like the industry standard trickle charge.  1 amp is just stupid.  Why the hell did I buy a 1 amp charger?!?
17:13 <Lucifer_arma> oh yeah, I was going to tar up the wiki real quick
17:15 <Lucifer_arma> wiki.armagetronad.net/wiki.tar.gz
17:16 <Lucifer_arma> http://wiki.armagetronad.net/wiki.tar.gz
17:16 <Lucifer_arma> I excluded images and LocalSettings.php.  You can probably grab those from any release
17:18 <n54> *nudges wrtlprnft just in case he's not here right now*
17:30 <wrtlprnft> ok, back from suppe
17:30 -!- z-man-home [n=manuel@p508700CF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
17:30 <wrtlprnft> Not Found
17:30 <wrtlprnft> The requested URL /wiki.tar.gz was not found on this server.
17:31 <wrtlprnft> Apache-AdvancedExtranetServer/2.0.50 (Mandrakelinux/7mdk) mod_perl/1.99_16 Perl/v5.8.5 Server at wiki.armagetronad.net Port 80
17:31 <wrtlprnft> AdvancedExtranetServer O_o
17:31 <wrtlprnft> whatever that means
17:33 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: ping ;)
17:33 -!- MaZuffeR [n=MaZuffeR@darkmoor.sby.abo.fi] has quit ["-"]
17:33 <Lucifer_arma> try again, sorry
17:33 <wrtlprnft> thanks
17:33 <Lucifer_arma> it was one up from the wiki webroot
17:33 <wrtlprnft> np
17:34 <wrtlprnft> lol can't reach that i hope
17:34 <wrtlprnft> http://wiki.armagetronad.net/../wiki.tar.gz
17:34 <wrtlprnft> no idea if that's the exact same file or the one that's one up
17:35 <wrtlprnft> but i guess it's the same
17:37 <wrtlprnft> can't test, since it seems like you removed that first- setup script (which is a good idea)
17:41 -!- ghableska [n=ghablesk@12-216-188-42.client.mchsi.com] has joined #armagetron
17:41 <ghableska> hi
17:41 -!- z-man-home [n=manuel@p508700CF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #armagetron
17:42 <wrtlprnft> hi there
17:42 <ghableska> hi wrtlprnft
17:42 <wrtlprnft> (i mean ghableska)
17:42 <ghableska> ;)
17:45 <n54> hi :)
17:45 <ghableska> hi n54
17:55 <wrtlprnft> suure, just when i need mysql on my test server it doesn't work
17:55 <ghableska> :P
17:58 <wrtlprnft> now i have to find out why it doesn't start...the init script thinks it started, but actually it dies right away without so much as an error message or log entry
17:58  * wrtlprnft recompiles mysqld...
18:05 <Lucifer_arma> ah, yeah, I removed that setup script :)
18:06 <wrtlprnft> no, it's still there actually
18:06 <wrtlprnft> just refused to run since there was already a config file
18:07 <wrtlprnft> but now i just noticed that I have no mysql so i have to get that fixed first
18:10 <wrtlprnft> wow. 75 stupids on my server already
18:11 <wrtlprnft> [2] Player 1: i never hit the button
18:11 <wrtlprnft> [2] Player 1: why am i player 1
18:11 <wrtlprnft> [2] Player 1: how do u make us say that
18:12 <wrtlprnft> [2] Player 1: this place suks
18:12 <ghableska> lol
18:12 <wrtlprnft> [2] Player 1: wtf u mother funken admin
18:12 <wrtlprnft> [1] Player 1: wat a gay server
18:12 <wrtlprnft> [1] Player 1: hmm?
18:12 <wrtlprnft> [1] Player 1: hey
18:12 <wrtlprnft> hehe
18:13 <wrtlprnft> i need a script that maps the "Player 1" in those chatlogs to the actual name the user had when he entered ;)
18:13 -!- z-man-home [n=manuel@p508700CF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
18:14 <wrtlprnft> unfortunately lots of the more well- known people are ignoring it or just disguised
18:15 <wrtlprnft> spidey was there, Vortex, some ct guy, loops, dook, and pyroto
18:17 <Lucifer_arma> hmm, I thought I'd removed it.  ok
18:17 <Lucifer_arma> well, why isn't the phptal template engine working?  :(
18:18 <wrtlprnft> ?
18:18 <Lucifer_arma> what a freaking pain in the ass
18:18 <Lucifer_arma> there's a phptal engine for Drupal, and it doesn't work
18:19 <wrtlprnft> #wikipedia phptal
18:19 <armabot> wrtlprnft: Search took 0.14 seconds: Wikipedia:MediaWiki 1.4 release notes - Wikipedia, the free ...: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MediaWiki_1.4_release_notes>; User:Gwicke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gwicke>
18:19 <wrtlprnft> helpful
18:21 -!- ghableska [n=ghablesk@12-216-188-42.client.mchsi.com] has left #armagetron []
18:21 <Self_Destructo> is the xmlparser built into the game custom made or something?
18:21 <wrtlprnft> it's based on libxml2
18:22 <Self_Destructo> k
18:22 <wrtlprnft> but that class handles getting and processing the XML and provides an objectorientated interface
18:22 <Self_Destructo> why do we have t, r, c, ect. in front of filenames?
18:22 <wrtlprnft> that's the dir
18:22 <wrtlprnft> things in src/tools start with t
18:23 <wrtlprnft> in src/render it's r
18:23 <wrtlprnft> and in src/tron it's g since t is already taken
18:23 <Self_Destructo> ok
18:23 <wrtlprnft> also, global variables are prefixed with s<prefix>_name
18:23 <Self_Destructo> hm
18:23 <Self_Destructo> k
18:23 <wrtlprnft> so in src/tools it would be st_Breakpoint()
18:24 <wrtlprnft> basically to avoid name confusion and to make it easier to locate the definition
18:24 <Self_Destructo> ok
18:24 <wrtlprnft> looks like my mysql DB is screwed up :(
18:25 <Self_Destructo> i'm still studying C++ right now, will be for no telling how long
18:25 <wrtlprnft> well, you won't find those prefixes in the annotations
18:25 <Self_Destructo> I'm just fixing to find out what classes are in the next chapter
18:25 <wrtlprnft> basically structs with functions in them
18:25 <Self_Destructo> k
18:26 <Self_Destructo> well, i know what structs are. :p
18:26 <wrtlprnft> that's plain c stuff
18:26 <wrtlprnft> a class is a struct in which you can define functions
18:27 <wrtlprnft> and those functions have access to the object they were called with
18:29 <Self_Destructo> k
18:30 <Self_Destructo> well, I'll learn that soon enough
18:30 <wrtlprnft> :)
18:32 <Lucifer_arma> I think I just DOSd my server
18:42 <Lucifer_arma> I give up.  No phptal for me.  :(
18:49 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: ok, successfully hacked the wiki
18:50 <wrtlprnft> http://wrtlprnft.ath.cx/Userlogin.php.txt
18:50 <wrtlprnft> that's includes/templates/Userlogin.php
18:51 <wrtlprnft> http://wrtlprnft.ath.cx/SpecialUserlogin.php.txt
18:51 <wrtlprnft> that's includes/SpecialUserlogin.php
18:51 <wrtlprnft> and that's it :)
18:55 <wrtlprnft> i added two fields, one before and one after the "real" field, and a message that only shows up if CSS is not applied that tells you which one to fill out
18:56 <wrtlprnft> and they're named wpName, wpWrtlName and wpVoidName, in order
19:19 <Lucifer_arma> you got rid of the original fields, right?
19:25 -!- nemostultae [n=nemostul@a1174.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #armagetron
19:26 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: i didn't touch the password fields
19:26 <wrtlprnft> and the original username field is still there, but it's one of those you aren't supposed to change
19:26 <wrtlprnft> so it checks that field's content, and if it's not empty it throws an error
19:27 <wrtlprnft> and the other added field, wp_VoidName, has a default value and if that's changed it fails, too
19:28 <wrtlprnft> and wp_WrtlName is the "real" username field
19:29 <Lucifer_arma> aha, ok.  I was just thinking that if you left the original fields and used them, it wouldn't work :)
19:30 <Lucifer_arma> how easy would it be to automatically ban IP addresses that fill in the fields they're not supposed to fill in?
19:30 <Lucifer_arma> also, how easy would it be to randomly generate the field names?  Then you could send the patch back to the mediawiki folks :)
19:30 <wrtlprnft> I don't think we want that
19:30 <n54> the banning shouldn't be neccessary as the bots will not be allowed further at all
19:31 <wrtlprnft> i don't want to send a patch anywhere, people should make a different hack for each wiki
19:31 <n54> however it could be nice for some sort of blacklist etc.
19:31 <wrtlprnft> if everyone uses it, the bots will get smarter
19:31 <n54> I kinda agree
19:31 <wrtlprnft> well, I don't want to automatically ban people who fill in the wrong fields
19:32 <wrtlprnft> one reason is that current users of the wiki might use password managers, and those will fill in the wrong fields
19:32 <n54> hah I didn't think of that.. perhaps a problem?
19:32 <wrtlprnft> no, it's not
19:33 <Self_Destructo> does anyone here remeber deja_vu's website?
19:33 <wrtlprnft> the error it throws says that this can be a reason and advises people to fill in their name and password manually one time for their password manager to adapt
19:33 <n54> ah ok
19:34 <wrtlprnft> deja_vu: std::cerr << deja_vu->website << std::endl;
19:34 <wrtlprnft> :D
19:34 <Self_Destructo> ...
19:34 <wrtlprnft> > Login/registration failed. Please do not edit the two additional fields. If you use a password manager, please fill out the form manually one time to make it learn the new fields. Thanks.
19:34 <wrtlprnft> that's what it says if you do fill them out
19:46  * Lucifer_arma notes that security by obscurity has secured millions of Windows computers the world over
19:46 <Lucifer_arma> GodTodd: been meaning to ask you, where'd you get your website hosted?
19:47 <wrtlprnft> well, the idea is that our small wiki is not worth writing an extra spambot for
19:48 <wrtlprnft> so we'll be safe
19:48  * n54 points out that in this case it's not security by obscurity, it's security by uniqueness... well actually it has nothing to do with security at all, it's just a slightly uncommon filter
19:48 <wrtlprnft> it's a simple countermeasure, and I think it will work just fine
19:48 <n54> yup
19:51 <GodTodd> Luci: i went with GoDaddy
19:51 <wrtlprnft> Luke-Jr won't be happy
19:51 <n54> :D
19:51 <wrtlprnft> Luke-Jr: Luke-Jr Luke-Jr 
19:51 <wrtlprnft> :D
19:53 <Lucifer_arma> heh, no, Luke-Jr won't like that
19:53 <Lucifer_arma> don't they support porn or something like that?
19:54 <GodTodd> lol
19:54 <Lucifer_arma> did you just register your domain through them, or are did you also get it physically hosted there?
19:54 <wrtlprnft> they grab domains and try to sell them
19:54 <GodTodd> they're hosting it too
19:54 <wrtlprnft> if you use their domain search chances are they'll grab the domain you were looking for
19:55 <wrtlprnft> so if you later decide you want that domain you can only get it from them
19:55 <n54> which registrars do you people like & use?
19:55 <wrtlprnft> &?
19:56 <n54> you didn't see that character? the and-sign?
19:56 <wrtlprnft> wrtlprnft.de is hosted by some provider in germany (didn't use their domain search, but http://denic.de/ ) and wrtlprnft.ath.cx is free anyways
19:56 <Lucifer_arma> I use no-ip :)
19:56 <wrtlprnft> yes there was an & sign
19:57 <wrtlprnft> but what does it mean in this contect? &
19:57 <Lucifer_arma> I was wondering because if you wanted, I could host it for you.  It's just on my cable connection, but your site's likely to be pretty low traffic for awhile
19:57 <wrtlprnft> *context
19:57 <n54> and
19:57 <n54> & i.e. ampersand always means and in normal use afaik
19:57 <wrtlprnft> > which registrars do you people like AND use
19:57 <wrtlprnft> there's a word missing in that sentence, it seems
19:58 <GodTodd> yeah...my site is going to be really low traffic til i get it to a point where it offers stuff that the general public might want
19:58 <Lucifer_arma> I can't give the kind of uptime a lot of host providers give, but I make it up with features.  :)  You have to pay real money to get stuff I just have laying around
19:58 <Lucifer_arma> I said I use no-ip
19:58 <n54> yeah heard you Lucifer :) thanks
19:58 <Lucifer_arma> I USE NO-IP.ORG FOR MY DOMAIN
19:58 <Lucifer_arma> guru3 USES NO-IP.ORG FOR ARMAGETRONAD.NET
19:58 <wrtlprnft> I USE DYNDNS.ORG FOR MY DOMAIN
19:58 <Lucifer_arma> afaik, Luke-Jr uses it too
19:59 <n54> THANKS YOU ARE GREAT! :D
19:59 <Lucifer_arma> z-man uses dyndns.org for armagetron.kicks-ass.net
19:59 <wrtlprnft> and I will use it for wrtlprnft.de as soon as my contract for wrtlprnft.de expires
19:59 <Lucifer_arma> do a whois lookup on generalconsumption.org to find out who nemo uses
20:00 <Lucifer_arma> Luke-Jr uses go-daddy for everything.  Email, domain registration, pizza delivery, *everything*
20:00 <n54> hehe
20:00 <GodTodd> lol
20:00 <GodTodd> i got a year domain reg for like 6$....so it wasn't bad
20:00  * wrtlprnft waits for the microsoft domain registration service
20:04 <GodTodd> i'd HAVE to get microsoftsucksass.com if they registered my domain :D
20:05 <wrtlprnft> that one doesn't even exist yet
20:17 <Lucifer_arma> $36/year for my domain registration
20:17 -!- Lucifer_arma is now known as LuciferEatsPeopl
20:18 -!- LuciferEatsPeopl is now known as LuciEatsPeopl
20:20 <n54> #g 36 USD to NOK
20:20 <armabot> n54: 36 U.S. dollars = 217.516087 Norwegian kroner
20:21 <n54> i.e. about 3.5 packets of cigarettes :)
20:23 <LuciEatsPeopl> heh
20:23 <LuciEatsPeopl> I make enough in google ads to cover that, though
20:24 <LuciEatsPeopl> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4986688.stm
20:27 <n54> really? google pays that well? I mean no offense but your site is a small one and all that
20:28 <LuciEatsPeopl> hmmm, I have some regular, devoted readers
20:29 <n54> ok, so it's not paid out by click only by impressions?
20:29 <LuciEatsPeopl> click only
20:29 <LuciEatsPeopl> I get a check about every 1.5 years, for just over $100
20:30 -!- LuciEatsPeopl is now known as LuciEatsPeople
20:30 <n54> huh not bad
20:31 <LuciEatsPeople> hmmm, captcha doesn't work, apparently
20:33 <n54> wiki? drupal?
20:36 <LuciEatsPeople> drupal
20:36 <LuciEatsPeople> what a shitty captcha image
20:36 <LuciEatsPeople> look at it.  Go on anonymous and try to post a comment somewhere
20:37 <n54> ok hold on
20:39 <LuciEatsPeople> maybe it's better if I give it a truetype font
20:41 <n54> ah there I see it
20:41 <n54> hmm yeah try that
20:42 <n54> something vector-based at least
20:42 <LuciEatsPeople> http://armatest.davefancella.com/node/12#comment  <--- fed it the Armagetron font :)
20:43 <LuciEatsPeople> I can make a better captcha than that
20:44 <n54> hmm yeah that shouldn't stop any reasonable ocr-bot
20:45 <n54> nice that the footer is sockless :D
20:47 <LuciEatsPeople> :)
20:47 <LuciEatsPeople> just wanted something in it
20:48 <LuciEatsPeople> well, instead of fooling with the captcha, I think I'm going to tear down my server in a minute
20:48 <LuciEatsPeople> lemme see if my wife's busy with it
20:50 <n54> youe wife is computer-literate? like seriously good?
20:51 <LuciEatsPeople> she's computer-literate in the sense that she can read what's on a monitor
20:51 -!- LuciEatsPeople is now known as Lucifer_arma
20:51 <n54> oh ok :D
20:51 <GodTodd> heh....my wife programs web pages ;)
20:52 <n54> cool :)
20:52 <Lucifer_arma> for Halliburton - n54's favorite company
20:52 <n54> lol
20:53 <GodTodd> yep...for big evil halliburton :)
20:54 <n54> actually my favourite company is SAS (not the scandinavian airline but the american computer/programming company)
20:55 <n54> purely for their management policies/ideas
20:57 <GodTodd> oh yeah....saw a thing on some news show a few years ago about them
20:58 <n54> yeah they occasionally pop up in business/management-related news etc. I've seen a few stories on them over the years
20:59 <GodTodd> yeah...they're still considered one of the best employers there is
21:00 <n54> yup
21:01 <Self_Destructo> wrtlprnft: what files contain the code for maps?
21:02 <wrtlprnft> gParser.cpp/gParser.h
21:03 <Self_Destructo> ok, ty
21:08 -!- nemostultae [n=nemostul@a1174.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit ["I quit."]
21:10 <n54> here's their site btw; http://sas.com/
21:10 <Lucifer_arma> SAS, the guys that used to make the C compiler for the Amiga?  The old lattice compiler?
21:11 <n54> hmm not sure if they're the same as I've never heard of that c compiler before
21:11 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, they're the same.  I've checked 'em out before.  :)
21:12 -!- deja_vu_ [n=deja_vu@80.144.170.150] has joined #armagetron
21:12 <n54> hmm found info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice_C
21:12 <GodTodd> yeah...they bought Lattice
21:12 <GodTodd> in 86
21:13 <GodTodd> same year the norwegian subsidiary opened
21:14 <wrtlprnft> Self_Destructo: but I'd suggest you don't really use the syntax that's used there, all those myxml functions
21:15 <wrtlprnft> they're mostly replaced by tXmlParser::node (on which you can find examples in cCockpit.cpp, cWidgetBase.cpp, rRotation.cpp and tXmlParser.cpp)
21:15 <wrtlprnft> they
21:15 <wrtlprnft> 'll deal with all the xmlChar * stuff for you and provide an interface with tStrings
21:16 <n54> huh I see wikipedia says 87 while sas says 86
21:18 <n54> anyway they're an inspiration in "things done right" imho
21:22 <wrtlprnft> logrotate still didn't rotate my logs :(
21:22 <wrtlprnft> looks like it's really waiting a week
21:23 <n54> hmm
21:23 <Lucifer_arma> hey, what's the command to add services to gentoo's startup?
21:24 <Lucifer_arma> also, how do I manuall start X in gentoo?  :)
21:24 <n54> not the usual way?
21:24 <wrtlprnft> rc-update
21:24 <Lucifer_arma> usual way for lucifer = service xdm start :)
21:24 <Lucifer_arma> (mandriva specific)
21:24 <wrtlprnft> rc-update add xdm default
21:25 <wrtlprnft> that makes xdm start on bootup
21:25 <n54> startx
21:25 <n54> right?
21:25 <wrtlprnft> yes
21:25 <wrtlprnft> or /etc/init.d/xdm start
21:25 <wrtlprnft> and if you wanna use kdm change /etc/rc.conf
21:25 <n54> unless gentoo is very weird I guess
21:26 <wrtlprnft> startx works, so does xinit and just X
21:26 <wrtlprnft> but it has to be configured right, which it isn't by default
21:27 <wrtlprnft> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/xorg-config.xml#doc_chap3
21:27 -!- deja_vu [n=deja_vu@p5090AAC9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:27 -!- armabot [n=supybot@user-0vvdcf9.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:27 <wrtlprnft> i see Lucifer_arma is restarting :D
21:27 <n54> oh noes armabot has died! :S
21:28 <wrtlprnft> or crashing, whatever
21:28 <wrtlprnft> and noone looked how long the logs were :(
21:28 <n54> hmm wonder if he saw any of our replies
21:28 <wrtlprnft> uh
21:28 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma's IRC client is not on the server i think
21:28 <n54> ok
21:29 <Lucifer_arma> no, it's on my laptop
21:29 <Lucifer_arma> er, I'm on my laptop
21:29 <n54> :)
21:29 <wrtlprnft> well
21:29 <wrtlprnft> if your irc client is on your laptop and you're chatting with in i assume you're on your laptop too
21:30 <wrtlprnft> *chatting with IT
21:30  * n54 ain't no "it"
21:30 <n54> ;P
21:30 <wrtlprnft> *chatting USING IT
21:30 <n54> pervert! :o
21:30 <wrtlprnft> O_o
21:30 <n54> lol
21:31 <n54> sorry --I'm just being silly :)
21:31  * wrtlprnft is getting used to it
21:31 <wrtlprnft> :D
21:31 <n54> :D
21:31 <Lucifer_arma> no /dev/mouse device
21:31 <Lucifer_arma> hmmm
21:31 <wrtlprnft> err
21:32 <wrtlprnft> yes, that always happens to me
21:32 <wrtlprnft> sec
21:32 <wrtlprnft> 	Option	    "Device" "/dev/input/mice"
21:32 <wrtlprnft> use that line instead of whatever device is there
21:33 <wrtlprnft> 	Option	    "ZAxisMapping" "4 5"
21:33 <wrtlprnft> use that option too if it isn't there or you won't be able to use your scroll wheel
21:33 <wrtlprnft> 	Option	    "ZAxisMapping" "5 4"
21:34 <wrtlprnft> and use that if you want to drive whoever is trying to use the scroll wheel crazy
21:34 <Lucifer_arma> hmm, that would be my wife
21:34 <wrtlprnft> or use other buttons...
21:35 <Lucifer_arma> except I'm not entirely sure she's discovered the scroll wheel
21:35 <wrtlprnft> "1 3" would map the scroll wheel to the left and right mouse buttons
21:37 <Lucifer_arma> where's the part that says "do this to start x on boot"
21:37 <wrtlprnft> nowhere, it's assumed to be known
21:37 <Lucifer_arma> just adding xdm is supposed to work?  is that it?
21:38 <wrtlprnft> yes
21:38 <wrtlprnft> try /etc/init.d/xdm start first
21:38 -!- ghableska [n=ghablesk@12-216-188-42.client.mchsi.com] has joined #armagetron
21:38 <ghableska> hello
21:38 <wrtlprnft> if that works you can use rc-update to make it start by itself
21:38 <wrtlprnft> hi there
21:39 <n54> hi ghableska
21:40 <ghableska> hi wrtlprnft, n54
21:41  * wrtlprnft is tempted to set his system clock a week forward to see if the log rotation works
21:41 <wrtlprnft> but better not, it would terribly mess things up i guess
21:42 <wrtlprnft> hmm, or i could make it run super-fast :D
21:46 <Lucifer_arma> it's very nice, this kde thing
21:46 -!- ghableska [n=ghablesk@12-216-188-42.client.mchsi.com] has left #armagetron []
21:47 <n54> lol wrtlprnft :)
21:47 <n54> Lucifer_arma: which hde thing?
21:47 <n54> kde*
21:47 <Lucifer_arma> This thing called KDE
21:48  * n54 notices ghab parts rather than quits
21:48 <Lucifer_arma> #translate "this KDE thing" no
21:48 <n54> oh ok :P :)
21:48 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: bad luck your bot is down :P
21:48 <wrtlprnft> emerge supybot
21:48 <Lucifer_arma> haha
21:48 <Lucifer_arma> ummm.......
21:48 <Lucifer_arma> looks like I forgot to emerge sshd
21:48 <wrtlprnft> err
21:48  * Lucifer_arma smacks his forehead
21:48 <wrtlprnft> it's there automatically
21:48 <Lucifer_arma> that's, um, one thing I really need
21:48 <wrtlprnft> /etc/init.d/sshd start
21:48 <Lucifer_arma> just doesn't start automatically?
21:49 <wrtlprnft> rc-update add sshd default
21:49 <wrtlprnft> no, why should it?
21:49 <wrtlprnft> it would just be a possible security hole if you don't use it
21:51 <wrtlprnft> the nice thing about gentoo is that dealing with runlevels is really easy
21:51 <wrtlprnft> i remember from knoppix times dealing with /etc/rc5.d/S20apache blah-blubb...
21:51 <wrtlprnft> brr
21:52 <Lucifer_arma> ok, you're right, it's there
21:53 <Lucifer_arma> now I've plugged in a network cable, and we'll see how it goes
21:53 -!- Self_Destructo is now known as SD|away
21:53 <SD|away> cya all
21:53 <Lucifer_arma> by SD|away 
21:53 <wrtlprnft> cya
21:53 <wrtlprnft> maybe you wanna do a /etc/init.d/net.eth0 start as well then
21:53 <wrtlprnft> if you just plugged in the cable
21:54 <wrtlprnft> or restart
21:54 <Lucifer_arma> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
21:54 <Lucifer_arma> @    WARNING: REMOTE HOST IDENTIFICATION HAS CHANGED!     @
21:54 <Lucifer_arma> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
21:54 <wrtlprnft> well
21:54 <wrtlprnft> ignore that, it indeed changed
21:54 <Lucifer_arma> :)
21:54 <wrtlprnft> you could copy your old key over
21:54 <wrtlprnft> s/key/certificate
21:55 <Lucifer_arma> this is a beautiful bash prompt
21:55 <wrtlprnft> :)
21:55 <Lucifer_arma> it's all colorful and stuff
21:55 <Lucifer_arma> makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside
21:55 <wrtlprnft> my zsh prompt is more beautiful methinks
21:55 <wrtlprnft> but colored prompts are really useful
21:55 <wrtlprnft> way easier to see where the output of the command you just typed started if you scroll up
21:56 <Lucifer_arma> http://armatest.davefancella.com/
21:56 <wrtlprnft> well
21:57 <wrtlprnft> rm /var/www/armatest/htdocs/index.htm
21:57 <Lucifer_arma> nonononono, my webroot will be somewhere else
21:57 <wrtlprnft> symlink?
21:57 <Lucifer_arma> I wonder what version of Drupal gentoo has?
21:57 <wrtlprnft> or just change the apache confix
21:57 <wrtlprnft> emerge -pv drupal
21:57 <Lucifer_arma> how do I find out the version of a package available?
21:58 <wrtlprnft> -p == --pretend, -v == --verbose (shows available use flags)
21:58 <Lucifer_arma> hmmm, no 4.7
21:58 <wrtlprnft> sure there is a 4.7
21:58 <wrtlprnft> it's just considered unstable
21:59 <Lucifer_arma> ok, how do I get to it, then?
21:59 <wrtlprnft> echo "www-apps/drupal-4.7.0 ~x86" >/etc/portage/package.keywords
21:59 <wrtlprnft> you might have to create /etc/portage first
21:59 <wrtlprnft> echo "=www-apps/drupal-4.7.0 ~x86" >/etc/portage/package.keywords
21:59 <Lucifer_arma> no, it's there
21:59 <wrtlprnft> uh, scratch that
22:00 <wrtlprnft> echo "~www-apps/drupal-4.7.0 ~x86" >/etc/portage/package.keywords
22:00 <wrtlprnft> that's best
22:00 <wrtlprnft> = only matches that specific version, ~ matches that version and minor ebuild updates
22:00 <Lucifer_arma> hmmmm, nothing found
22:00 <wrtlprnft> ?
22:01 <wrtlprnft> what architecture is that server?
22:01 <Lucifer_arma> x86
22:01 <wrtlprnft> hmm
22:01 <wrtlprnft> what does it say?
22:01 <Lucifer_arma> do you see one?  Probably I'm doing something wrong...
22:02 <wrtlprnft> see one what?
22:02 <Lucifer_arma> drupal 4.7
22:02 <Lucifer_arma> !!! All ebuilds that could satisfy "drupal" have been masked.
22:02 <wrtlprnft> yeah
22:02 <Lucifer_arma> !!! One of the following masked packages is required to complete your request:
22:02 <Lucifer_arma> - www-apps/drupal-4.5.2 (masked by: ~x86 keyword)
22:02 <Lucifer_arma> - www-apps/drupal-4.6.3 (masked by: ~x86 keyword)
22:02 <Lucifer_arma> - www-apps/drupal-4.6.2 (masked by: ~x86 keyword)
22:02 <Lucifer_arma> - www-apps/drupal-4.6.5 (masked by: ~x86 keyword)
22:02 <Lucifer_arma> - www-apps/drupal-4.5.7 (masked by: ~x86 keyword)
22:02 <wrtlprnft> http://pastebin.ca/56488
22:02 <wrtlprnft> that's what i see
22:02 <wrtlprnft> did you do an emerge sync recently?
22:03 <Lucifer_arma> benedict apache2 # ls /etc/portage
22:03 <Lucifer_arma> package.keywords
22:03 <wrtlprnft> cat /etc/portage/*
22:03 <Lucifer_arma> benedict apache2 # cat /etc/portage/*
22:03 <Lucifer_arma> ~www-apps/drupal-4.7.0 ~x86
22:04 <wrtlprnft> you need to emerge sync i guess
22:04 <Lucifer_arma> well, haven't done an emerge sync since last time I was fooling with it :)
22:04 <wrtlprnft> yeah, do it
22:04 <wrtlprnft> that package got added on May 5
22:05 <wrtlprnft> so portage can't know about it if you don't add it
22:05 <Lucifer_arma> any idea how easy it is to manage vhosts with gentoo?  Just use apache stuff for it?
22:05 <wrtlprnft> there's a /etc/apache2/vhosts.d :)
22:06 <wrtlprnft> you just add another file in there and put a <VirtualHost> directive in there
22:06 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, that's how kubuntu is setup now
22:06  * Lucifer_arma wonders if he emerged mysql
22:07 <wrtlprnft> try starting it
22:07 <Lucifer_arma> Updating Portage cache:
22:07 <wrtlprnft> yeah, that takes a few secs
22:07 <Lucifer_arma> a few, heh
22:07 <wrtlprnft> emerge screen once you have time to fool around with it. really handy.
22:07 <Lucifer_arma> last time it took an hour or so
22:07 <wrtlprnft> it should be faster this time
22:08 <wrtlprnft> but it's a long time since the last update, so...
22:08 <Lucifer_arma> emerge pyqt :)
22:08 <wrtlprnft> oh, yeah, you update all your stuff by saying emerge -uDav world
22:08 <wrtlprnft> where a and v are optional
22:08 <Lucifer_arma> I'm going to hve a tendency to type that as:
22:09 <Lucifer_arma> emerge -imDav world
22:09 <wrtlprnft> -i is deprecated
22:09  * Lucifer_arma is named Dave
22:09 <Lucifer_arma> it wasn't a very funny joke
22:09 <wrtlprnft> -Dave might work
22:10 <wrtlprnft> but that will re- emerge everything you have
22:10 <Lucifer_arma> I just want to be able to update apache and kde and a few minor things without having to install another distribution
22:10 <Lucifer_arma> if I can have that, I'm happy
22:11 <wrtlprnft> that's possible
22:11 <Lucifer_arma> I'd have left it running Mandriva 10.1 if I could've done that :)
22:11 <wrtlprnft> you should do it regulary, though
22:11 <wrtlprnft> I made the experience that updates get hard if you don't update for a month or so
22:11 <Lucifer_arma> is it worth having it in a cronjob?
22:11 <wrtlprnft> better not
22:12 <wrtlprnft> you can put emerge sync into a cronjob
22:12 <Lucifer_arma> I'd wake up one morning with a bad server and a test, which one do I do?  ;)
22:12 <wrtlprnft> but for the updating itself you'd better check
22:12 <wrtlprnft> some things like updating mysql require you to do some things manually
22:12 <wrtlprnft> like converting the database
22:13 <wrtlprnft> generally you should be careful if it wants to update important services, baselayout, or the kernel
22:13 <wrtlprnft> and run etc-update before you reboot
22:14 <Lucifer_arma> dammit, it's supposed to be saving me work, not making more
22:14 <Lucifer_arma> :)
22:14 <wrtlprnft> it's not really lots of work
22:15 <Lucifer_arma> I know, I don't have any idea how it compares until I just do it for awhile
22:15 <wrtlprnft> usually it all goes straight
22:15 <wrtlprnft> but at first it's a pain compared to apt and friends
22:16 <Lucifer_arma> >>> Updating Portage cache:   50%  
22:17 <wrtlprnft> o_O
22:17 <Lucifer_arma> seems to be stuck there
22:17 <wrtlprnft> for me it has a tendency to be really slow between 50 and 60
22:17  * n54 keeps his mouth shut :)
22:17 <wrtlprnft> it goes up to 50 really fast, then is really slow and at some point around 60 speeds up again
22:17 <Lucifer_arma> he's quiet for half an hour, then speaks up just to tell he's going to be quiet for more
22:17 <Lucifer_arma> can't understand them damn Vikings sometimes, you know?
22:17 <n54> hehe :D
22:17 <wrtlprnft> lol
22:18 <Lucifer_arma> well I'm a go grab a smoke, then
22:18 <n54> hey I though you quit!
22:18 <wrtlprnft> o_O
22:18 <wrtlprnft> <insert comment here>
22:18  * n54 is seriously addicted to nicotine
22:20 <wrtlprnft> wth do i have 1.55 seconds of lag here?
22:21 <n54> which freenode server are you connectd to+
22:21 <wrtlprnft> 22:21 -!-  channels : #armagetron
22:21 <wrtlprnft> 22:21 -!-  server   : kornbluth.freenode.net [Frankfurt, DE, EU]
22:21 <wrtlprnft> 22:21 -!-           : is identified to services
22:21 <wrtlprnft> why a server in germany now? don't they have some over here?
22:22 <n54> yeah weird, but it explains the lag
22:22 <wrtlprnft> now it's .2 again
22:22 <n54> I guess a few business might start increasing their bandwidth usage around now
22:22 <n54> here in europe that is
22:22 <wrtlprnft> uh
22:23 <wrtlprnft> at 3AM?
22:23 <n54> I've sometimes notices lag "shuddering" a bit in the early morning when I used to play armagetron --- it's 0525 ;)
22:23 <n54> noticed*
22:24 <wrtlprnft> might be 5:25 at your place, but it's 3:23 in Germany
22:24 <wrtlprnft> and that's where the server is
22:24 <n54> same timezone so it shouldn't be
22:24 <wrtlprnft> #g 22+7-24
22:24 <wrtlprnft> bah
22:24 <wrtlprnft> argh
22:24 <n54> http://www.worldtimezone.com/index24.html
22:24 <n54> :)
22:25 <wrtlprnft> ok, it is 5PM
22:25 <n54> timebattle wrtlprnft vs. n54: 1 - 1  :D
22:25 <wrtlprnft> i just kinda translated 10PM to 20:00 ;)
22:25 <n54> :)
22:25 <wrtlprnft> then added 4
22:26 <n54> pm is teh eval :P
22:26 <wrtlprnft> so i got to 24:00/12AM
22:26 <wrtlprnft> and then added the remaining 3 :D
22:26 <n54> yeah it's easy to slip up on that
22:26 <n54> :)
22:26 <wrtlprnft> i know, but everyone here uses it, so i have my clock set to it :(
22:27 <wrtlprnft> I still love the clock in my kicker bar tho
22:27 <wrtlprnft> right now it says Twenty five past ten
22:28 <n54> took me years to remember which part of the day am and pm specified :S
22:29 <wrtlprnft> hmm... i just remember AM for "Am Morgen" which is German for "in the morning" :D
22:31 <wrtlprnft> uh, am i still here?
22:31 <Lucifer_arma> sure it's not 5am in germany?
22:31 <wrtlprnft> it is 5:30 in germany
22:31 <wrtlprnft> as i said, i'm just too stupid for timezones ;)
22:31 <wrtlprnft> 254 seconds of lag it says now
22:32 <GodTodd> nope...it's 5:30 am ;)
--- Log closed Tue May 16 22:32:22 2006
--- Log opened Tue May 16 22:33:45 2006
22:33 <wrtlprnft> oh, heck
22:34  * wrtlprnft kicks his provider
22:34 -!- wrtlprnft [n=wrtlprnf@S0106000f6687e817.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #armagetron
22:34 -!- Irssi: #armagetron: Total of 12 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 12 normal]
22:34 -!- Irssi: Join to #armagetron was synced in 48 secs
22:34 <n54> yeah, probably for the best Lucifer
22:34 <wrtlprnft> uh, err, what was the last thing i said (and you got)?
22:35 <Lucifer_arma> um, you said it was like 8pm in germany or something
22:35 <GodTodd> <wrtlprnft> i know, but everyone here uses it, so i have my clock set to it :(
22:35 <wrtlprnft> o_o
22:35 <wrtlprnft> 22:27 <wrtlprnft> I still love the clock in my kicker bar tho
22:35 <wrtlprnft> 22:27 <wrtlprnft> right now it says Twenty five past ten
22:35 <wrtlprnft> 22:29 <wrtlprnft> hmm... i just remember AM for "Am Morgen" which is German for "in the morning" :D
22:35 <wrtlprnft> 22:31 <wrtlprnft> uh, am i still here?
22:35 <wrtlprnft> 22:31 <wrtlprnft> it is 5:30 in germany
22:35 <wrtlprnft> 22:31 <wrtlprnft> as i said, i'm just too stupid for timezones ;)
22:35 <wrtlprnft> 22:31 <wrtlprnft> 254 seconds of lag it says now
22:36 <n54> oh, I didn't see any of that
22:36 <wrtlprnft> 22:33 <wrtlprnft> oh, heck
22:36 <wrtlprnft> 22:34  * wrtlprnft kicks his provider
22:36 <wrtlprnft> that's it then
22:36 <Lucifer_arma> Total size of downloads: 295,263 kB
22:36 <wrtlprnft> what's that big?
22:36 <Lucifer_arma> emerge -uDav world
22:37 <wrtlprnft> well, there are sizes next to the packages as well
22:37 <wrtlprnft> one of them must be huge
22:37 <Lucifer_arma> I guess this calls for a few rounds of armagetronad
22:37 <wrtlprnft> while downloading?
22:37 <wrtlprnft> good luck
22:37 <Lucifer_arma> I expect it'll spend most of it's time compiling, heh
22:37 <wrtlprnft> true
22:38 <Lucifer_arma> it's my slow computer, after all
22:38  * Lucifer_arma starts armagetron
22:38 <wrtlprnft> bah 800MHz != slow
22:38  * Lucifer_arma is in sumo if anyone wants to join
23:29 <wrtlprnft> #night
23:29 <n54> cya wrtlprnft :)
23:29 <wrtlprnft> all of IRC exept you played :D
23:29 <Lucifer_arma> 'night wrtlprnft 
23:29 <Lucifer_arma> man n54, you'd love that sumo server
23:30 <wrtlprnft> �$!*#
23:30 <wrtlprnft> i'm handling the kernel myself, portage! no need to mess me up py "updating" it!
23:30 <n54> how so?
23:30 <wrtlprnft> well, kernel.org
23:34 <n54> I meant in relation to the sumo server
23:38 <guru3> don't go shouting about domains at 2am
23:39 <guru3> off to breakfast & exam
23:39 <guru3> cu guys
23:40 <Lucifer_arma> heh, have fun guru3 
23:40 <n54> lol & hi guru3 :)
23:40 <n54> best of luck too, hope it goes well

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