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[2020-07-09 01:04:51] <Lucifer_arma> I'm absolutely convinced that pigsty went on to work on Rocket League in some form or other
[2020-07-09 01:05:18] <Lucifer_arma> The very first version of the game appeared soon after the sty patch, and he had said he was testing this concept out for "something else he was working on"
[2020-07-09 01:06:18] <Lucifer_arma> Anyway, as far as renaming things to avoid appearing to be racist, we should definitely unify around "This is kinda silly, because it's actually appropriate to use these words in this context, but if it's going to bother someone, we're happy to do the renaming"
[2020-07-09 01:07:27] <Lucifer_arma> because digging in and fighting it would be a bad look.  I'd support keeping the old names if needed to ensure backwards compatibility without really removing them because that's consistent with the statement that "these names are appropriate in this context"
[2020-07-09 01:19:54] <Lucifer_arma> but I want to say that this sensitivity is going a bit far and I hope it springs back a bit before settling.  Protestors were toppling George washington statues because he owned slaves.
[2020-07-09 01:20:43] <Lucifer_arma> Seriously?  I get it, our founding fathers were imperfect people, and people of their times.  That's all true!  Abraham Lincoln was a white supremacist!  (During the Lincoln-Douglas debates, he reaffirmed that he believed the "negro" race was inferior to the white race)
[2020-07-09 01:21:24] <Lucifer_arma> But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water!  I definitely believe we need a new constitution, not just because we need to modernize it, but also because we need to eliminate the stuff about black people counting as 3/5 of a person and shit like that
[2020-07-09 01:22:27] <Lucifer_arma> but George Washington laid down important precedents for presidents, not only US presidents, but presidents and prime ministers of literally every country that has them.  His example, by itself, is one of those historical events that's so important it *continues* to impact billions of people today
[2020-07-09 01:23:27] <Lucifer_arma> but I'll ride this rollercoaster and see where it goes before I worry about whether or not we should be digging in yet.
[2020-07-09 01:24:32] <Lucifer_arma> it's also amusing to think that George Washington was such a vain person, so worried about his image, that in order to make sure his image was safe and secure and exactly "right", he had to leave an image of modesty to history
[2020-07-09 01:25:09] <Lucifer_arma> like, the Really Great Example he set in the first place was motivated 98% by vanity, and only 2% by Being a Good Person
[2020-07-09 01:43:58] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [tools-php-client-trunk-work] r6 Don't loop indefinitely on failure. Also, silence warnings a...
[2020-07-09 03:44:23] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1301 Redo forum link correction with correct encoding... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1300 Partial Revert "Correct forum links"... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1299 Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Unifying steam image update || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Update docker images to builds from rudy || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Use mktemp as fallback for tempfile
[2020-07-09 05:14:43] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1594 Merge from release_0.2.9 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] More forum link corrections || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Correct forum links || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Rebrand Windows storage directories... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Disable memory checks if memory manager is inactive || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Disable explicit direcx driver activation...
[2020-07-09 06:44:59] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1595 Merge from release_0.2.9 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Try itch uploads some more times
[2020-07-09 08:47:47] <Z-Man> Yeah, simply being a slave owner back then is not that much different from 'being stupid rich' today and alone is no reason to condemn a person and not remember the good things they did first.
[2020-07-09 08:48:22] <Z-Man> Unless they were unusually cruel slave owners, or maybe slave traders.
[2020-07-09 08:50:46] <Z-Man> See, today, when you're stupid rich, that wealth usualty didn't come from the hard work you yourself did, it came from the hard work you made other people do for you. And the benefit of being stupid rich is that you can make more people work for your benefit. Sure, today, those people have a choice about what they will do and have a life of their own, but when it comes to work, most peoples' choices are limited. They can pick which stupidly
[2020-07-09 08:50:46] <Z-Man>  rich guy they want to work for.
[2020-07-09 08:54:41] <Z-Man> So yeah, I'd leave Washington alone. Civil War Southern Generals, however, not so much. I mean, we don't have any statues of Rommel around here, even though he was a good and successful general (IIRC). Fighting for the evidently wrong side does that, even if it's just the wrong side in hindsight.
[2020-07-09 08:58:25] <Z-Man> Blacklists: if the reason for the name is black == evil, wouldn't that be a reason to move away from it? Sure, black != Black, but explain that to a five year old. And when you're done, explain it to me, because I don't fully understand it myself.
[2020-07-09 09:12:05] <guru3> I think it's as easy or easier to understand what an allow/deny list does, it's right there in the name. So not only does it avoid subconciously reinforcing any white == good, black == bad, it syntactically make more sense.
[2020-07-09 09:50:31] <Z-Man> Possibly, though I personally don't immediately grok that if there is an "allow list" and I'm not on it, I don't get in. Then again, that aspect is fundamentally unintuitive. Normally, if I remove an item from the list, less people get in. But if I remove the final item, everybody gets in.
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[2020-07-09 10:08:12] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-09 10:08:12] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-09 10:08:16] -!- tepper.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-07-09 10:08:16] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-07-09 10:16:41] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-09 10:16:41] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-07-09 10:16:44] -!- orwell.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-07-09 10:16:44] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
[2020-07-09 10:17:34] <guru3> yes, what happens when the allow list is populated vs empty is unintuitive
[2020-07-09 12:20:50] <Z-Man> guru3: While I have your attention, can you check whether the hash update for @forum logins is still working? I have a report from Discord where a user says he reset his password, can login with the temp password he got in the mail, but not with the new password he set afterwards.
[2020-07-09 12:22:08] <Z-Man> And I haven't investigated fully, but I seem to be unable to log in to @forums myself with the current password. I still can log in with the stored hash I have on Linux. I can't say which password that belongs to :(
[2020-07-09 12:30:16] <guru3> hrmm
[2020-07-09 12:30:22] <guru3> good questions
[2020-07-09 12:31:19] <guru3> I don't actually remember anymore whether or not I ported the code when I updated the forums
[2020-07-09 12:31:29] <guru3> clearly I altered the table because people can still login
[2020-07-09 12:37:09] <guru3> it should be working according to the code
[2020-07-09 12:44:48] <guru3> trying to test, but naturally I don't have an update to date compile of the game -_-
[2020-07-09 12:46:16] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1302 Try individual LP uploads multiple times
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[2020-07-09 12:57:44] <guru3> and now I've somehow lost IP connectivity between my desktop and VPS, making life extra difficult to debug
[2020-07-09 12:58:58] <guru3> I'm not entirely sure what happened, but possibly my VPS lost some of its routing
[2020-07-09 13:09:27] <guru3> and yes looks like the forums is doing something wrong with updating passwords
[2020-07-09 13:22:51] <guru3> OK worked out what's gone wrong
[2020-07-09 13:23:07] <guru3> and now am not quite sure how to fix it
[2020-07-09 13:23:12] <Lucifer_arma> a whitelist is actually more like a guest list than an allow list
[2020-07-09 13:23:30] <Lucifer_arma> like, when you have a band playing in a bar, the bar and band each have their own banlists, and those are people not allowed at all
[2020-07-09 13:23:46] <guru3> the issue, roughly, breaks down special characters becoming their HTML safe variants - e.g. & to &amp;
[2020-07-09 13:23:58] <Lucifer_arma> they also both each have their own guest lists, and those are people for whom space is kept open and they're let in for free when they show up
[2020-07-09 13:24:14] <Lucifer_arma> all other people have to pay the cover charge to get in, and for them it's first-come-first-serve
[2020-07-09 13:24:36] <Lucifer_arma> the black/white dichotomy comes originally from ancient mythology, going all the way back to the original god: the Sun
[2020-07-09 13:24:59] <Lucifer_arma> light was good, because it created life, and darkness was bad, because it was associated with death and decay
[2020-07-09 13:25:54] <Lucifer_arma> there's an argument to be made that the view of Black people as bad is based in the original light/dark paradigm, but I don't actually know anything about that
[2020-07-09 13:26:39] <Lucifer_arma> but even the Hebrew/Christian/Muslim creation myth starts out with "In the beginning, there was dark" and then this dickhead showed up and created light
[2020-07-09 13:27:01] <Lucifer_arma> the name Lucifer translates directly to "the light" and was used in the book of Revelations to refer to Jesus Christ
[2020-07-09 13:27:50] <Lucifer_arma> anyway, we see this trope more often in shows/movies from a few decades ago where the good guys wore white and the bad guys wore black, and from there we have white hat hackers and black hat hackers, whitelists and blacklists
[2020-07-09 13:28:16] <Lucifer_arma> the original hollywood blacklist wasn't a list of Black people, it was a list of people who weren't allowed to work in hollywood because of supposed ties to the communist party
[2020-07-09 13:28:43] <Lucifer_arma> also, if we have a 5 year old digging so deep into armagetron that they're encountering the blacklist/whitelist stuff, I say we recruit them to the development team
[2020-07-09 13:30:00] <Lucifer_arma> other babies we can't throw out with the bath water: in mental health treatment, "black and white thinking" is a huge topic because various conditions limit someone to that sort of extreme thinking, and that kind of thinking leads to a great deal of distress when people are caught up in it
[2020-07-09 13:30:29] <Lucifer_arma> it would *really* complicate mental health treatment if we had to dance around the phrase "black and white thinking"
[2020-07-09 13:30:43] <Lucifer_arma> luckily, the yin-yang symbol also comes up a lot as an answer to that sort of thinking
[2020-07-09 13:31:26] <Lucifer_arma> in fact, the yin-yang symbol existing in a culture that didn't have much/any interactions with Black peoples of African/Australian descent is one of the signs that blacklist/whitelist doesn't have a racist origin
[2020-07-09 13:31:46] <Lucifer_arma> anyway, back to the lists
[2020-07-09 13:32:20] <Lucifer_arma> I don't like the word "guestlist" for various reasons, but there could be an "always allow list" to clear up the noted discrepancies
[2020-07-09 13:32:44] <Lucifer_arma> even that's not perfect, right?  Someone on that list could still be temporarily banned?
[2020-07-09 13:33:50] <Lucifer_arma> also, banlist vs blacklist: banlist requires a specific act by a person to get on the list.  blacklists can be generated from other sources, like google's list of spam sites (or mozilla's) and don't imply that somebody did something bad on that game server
[2020-07-09 13:37:52] <guru3> ok looks like there's a function to un entisise
[2020-07-09 13:42:05] <guru3> Z-Man: potential problem solved, ask the user to logout and log back into the forums, then try again
[2020-07-09 13:42:22] <guru3> if it still doesn't work I'll have to look again, but I did definetely solve at least one forums armathentication problem
[2020-07-09 13:46:34] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad] r3159 Only use xdg tools when installing to root... || [0.4-armagetronad] r3158 Correct xdg tools usage...
[2020-07-09 14:23:58] <Lucifer_arma> how big of a jack do I need to lift a 28' motorhome?
[2020-07-09 14:24:13] <Lucifer_arma> total weight comes in around 15000 pounds
[2020-07-09 14:25:20] <Lucifer_arma> an 8-ton jack can lift, what, 16000 pounds?  Since I'm only lifting one corner at a time, I'm never going to have more than 8k pounds on the jack at a time
[2020-07-09 14:25:41] <Lucifer_arma> so an 8-ton jack should be plenty, right?
[2020-07-09 14:34:24] <Lucifer_arma> nvm.  I ordered a 12 ton jack.
[2020-07-09 14:35:30] <Lucifer_arma> this is a weird time we live in.  I literally just visited a web page to look at a picture of a package outside my front door to see if it got delivered to the right apartment before getting up to open the door
[2020-07-09 14:35:37] <Lucifer_arma> the door is like 4 meters away from me
[2020-07-09 15:14:07] <Z-Man> I get the part where light == good, black == bad comes from. The part I don't get is why we should stick to it when the conclusion  "Black People == bad" is just such a small step away, however fallacious it may be.
[2020-07-09 15:17:07] <Z-Man> Especially since the whitelist logic is hard to grasp. How about:
[2020-07-09 15:17:12] <Z-Man> Default is allow
[2020-07-09 15:17:26] <Z-Man> if something is on the deny list, it's out
[2020-07-09 15:18:01] <Z-Man> No wait, start again :)
[2020-07-09 15:18:12] <Z-Man> if something is on the allow list, it's in
[2020-07-09 15:18:22] <Z-Man> If something is on the deny list, it's out
[2020-07-09 15:18:30] <Z-Man> If it's on neither, it's in
[2020-07-09 15:18:39] <Z-Man> both lists need to support wildcards
[2020-07-09 15:19:14] <Z-Man> so you get the old whitelist behaviour by setting the allow list to your former whitelist and the deny list to the catch-all wildcard, probably *.
[2020-07-09 15:20:12] <Z-Man> (the second try gave the tests in order. So if something is on both list, it's in by the first check.)
[2020-07-09 15:21:02] <Z-Man> Our black/whitelists are only for authentication authorities and hash methods.
[2020-07-09 15:23:23] <Z-Man> Regarding the jack question, you obviously can't lift a CORNER of the CV. You're going to lift one side, effectively. If it's the front or back, you may have to lift more than half the weight of the vehicle, so going one number bigger was a good call.
[2020-07-09 15:24:18] <Z-Man> (Never lifted an RV, only regular cars, those usually go left or right when changing tires, not back/front, so no problem there)
[2020-07-09 15:34:27] <Z-Man> guru3: For me it worked after a password change. Was about time anyway. The old password was just alphanumerical, so dunno what the problem may have been. Could be that I mistyped it five times in a row, can't rule that out.
[2020-07-09 15:46:56] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad] r3161 Merge from legacy_0.2.8 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1596 Merge from release_0.2.9 || [0.4-armagetronad] Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.4-armagetronad] r3160 Merge from legacy_0.2.8
[2020-07-09 20:04:36] <Lucifer_arma> You definitely lift more than the weight that comes down on the wheel where you're lifting, that's for sure.  We'll be lifting right by the wheel, though, on the suspension, not the frame (like you usually do with cars), so it'll be closer to whatever weight the wheel is bearing
[2020-07-09 20:05:55] <Lucifer_arma> and my primary reason for generally not wanting to stop using blacklist/whitelist terminology is because those words carry meaning that we don't get otherwise.  It's not a simple word replacement, exactly, and since they're not racist in origin, I generally don't have a problem with them
[2020-07-09 20:06:32] <Lucifer_arma> but I'm in favor of making the changes anyway because right now, you're right, and it's pretty easy to make the jump to racist meanings, and it's better for us if we just go ahead and make the changes
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[2020-07-09 21:07:36] -!- Z-Man- changed nick to Z-Man
[2020-07-09 23:32:10] <Armanelgtron> huh, toggling between fullscreen and windowed mode seems a little unpredictable on the current 0.4...
[2020-07-09 23:34:36] <Armanelgtron> also, seems like "Apply Changes" now always reinitializes the screen
[2020-07-09 23:38:22] <Armanelgtron> eek, it's even worse on 0.2.9 - fullscreen just toggles between two resolutions, the windowed resolution and the fullscreen resolution but doesn't actually come out of fullscreen
[2020-07-09 23:39:44] <Armanelgtron> oh, it's just not reverting my resolution properly

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