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[2020-07-01 00:59:57] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1114 Add VERIFY_COLOR_STRICT and escape noncompliant color codes ...
[2020-07-01 01:21:31] <Armanelgtron> so could I convince someone to lower the required version for VERIFY_COLOR_STRICT now in 0.4 servers? :P
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[2020-07-01 16:07:33] <Z-Man> Once I understand it :) Armanelgtron: that all looks like splendid stuff. I'll definitely nab the Aspect Ratio fix.
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[2020-07-01 22:23:06] <Lucifer_arma> https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/01/us/seattle-chop-protesters/index.html
[2020-07-01 22:24:11] <Lucifer_arma> Took longer than I was expecting, but I'm glad the mayor made the choice she did.  Rather than turn it into a warzone right away, she gave them the space they needed, then moved in when it was time
[2020-07-01 23:04:19] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1115 A couple patches, mainly color related:...
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[2020-07-02 08:06:57] <Armanelgtron> well, evidently attempting to just push the Git +ap onto the Baazar branch on Launchpad causes the message "These branches have diverged. Use the missing command to see how. Use the merge command to reconcile them."
[2020-07-02 08:07:08] <Armanelgtron> guess I won't be doing that ...
[2020-07-02 08:09:18] <Armanelgtron> I guess if I want this to actually work I'll have to look into properly syncing everything
[2020-07-02 08:12:44] <Armanelgtron> the missing command says I have 1115 extra revisions and am missing 1117 revisions (which .. well, I did try to commit 2 revisions, so there's one thing)
[2020-07-02 08:14:54] <Armanelgtron> and I dont think merge would have actually accomplished what I wanted to?
[2020-07-02 08:26:14] <Armanelgtron> hmm, I'd probably also have to include some of armagetron's other branches if I would expect merging to actually work ...
[2020-07-02 08:27:12] <Armanelgtron> and it wasn't really my goal to rehost the entirety of armagetron on yet another repository that even less people will look at...
[2020-07-02 08:29:13] <Armanelgtron> (well, I have no real goals in mind with any of this stuff)
[2020-07-02 08:34:26] <Armanelgtron> ideas? sure, but I just wait around a few years before actually working on them :D
[2020-07-02 08:48:23] <Armanelgtron> oh yikes, I've spammed my inbox
[2020-07-02 08:49:08] <Armanelgtron> and probably a few other people's ..
[2020-07-02 12:08:02] <Z-Man> YES
[2020-07-02 12:08:24] <Z-Man> No worries, I have a lp filter.
[2020-07-02 18:42:18] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1116 More aspect ratio correction: for text in server browser and...
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[2020-07-02 21:49:07] <Armanelgtron> oi I've just noticed the cursor blink rate seems to depend on frames instead of time
[2020-07-02 22:43:09] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1117 "Hack" to fade zones in before round begins

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[2020-07-03 02:13:51] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1118 Converted 0.4's font to textures. Using that instead.
[2020-07-03 02:43:52] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1575 Merge from origin/beta_0.2.9
[2020-07-03 03:14:05] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1118 Converted 0.4's font to textures. Using that instead.
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[2020-07-03 17:08:31] <Z-Man> Armanelgtron: Heeeey, I just remembered we already have a working git branch of ap: https://gitlab.com/armagetronad/armagetronad/-/tree/hack-0.2.8-sty+ct+ap
[2020-07-03 17:09:40] <Z-Man> It's not automatically synced from the regular ap branch on launchpad because the sync scrips always work both ways; rather, it's using my copy of it.
[2020-07-03 17:10:58] <Z-Man> But I just updated that, so the git branch is also up to date. If you want to switch to git, you can use that.
[2020-07-03 17:14:47] <Z-Man> When I say 'working', I mean it's synced. You apparently broke server compilation, says the CI.
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[2020-07-03 19:02:50] <Armanelgtron> hmm, I tried to find a place where that would be repeated the least (every frame hopefully instead of every piece of text)
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[2020-07-03 19:04:02] <Armanelgtron> and I didn't really think about servers ... whoops
[2020-07-03 19:17:19] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1119 Add ifndef DEDICATED check to aspect ratio checking
[2020-07-03 19:28:55] <Armanelgtron> huh, the version seems to be coming out as "z0" in some places
[2020-07-03 19:33:34] <Armanelgtron> oh, looks like breezy removed the deprecated "--include-merges"
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[2020-07-04 03:19:40] <Z-Man> Maybe 'breezy' isn't the best name for something linked to Canonical. I thought you meant a recent Ubuntu release, then remembered it's an ancient Ubuntu release, and only then remembered it's also new bzr :)
[2020-07-04 03:24:03] <Z-Man> Oh wow. The error you get for using --include-merges is a prime example of what definitely not to do. Internal error + stacktrace + configuration dump + request to report it as bug.
[2020-07-04 03:49:04] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1587 Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1120 Hopefully fixed crashes when players leave (specifically in ... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1334 bzr revcount: switch to '-n 0'...
[2020-07-04 04:00:40] <Z-Man> fixed it.
[2020-07-04 04:19:10] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1121 Merge from 0.2.8.
[2020-07-04 06:19:32] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] bzr revcount: switch to '-n 0'... || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Test AppDir and AppImage... || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Add some indirect dependencies to libraries || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] AppRun: Quote safety for arguments || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Adapt to /usr/local -> /usr move || [0.2.9-armagetr
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[2020-07-04 18:21:49] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1122 Check both CanRespawn and Alive for zones spawning players.
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[2020-07-06 04:30:21] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1123 Sync slowdown of soccerballs. Make it so SPAWN_SOCCER can ac...
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[2020-07-06 06:00:37] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1124 Add BALL_SPEED_HIT_DECAY for decreasing a zone's speed when ...
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[2020-07-06 12:12:07] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-06 12:12:07] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-07-06 12:12:12] -!- kornbluth.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-07-06 12:12:12] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
[2020-07-06 12:31:52] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1588 Embed debian build definition files so they get easier to ma... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Embed debian build definitions...
[2020-07-06 13:32:00] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad] r3154 Update embedded debian dir to former external source || [0.4-armagetronad] r3153 Merge from legacy_0.2.8 || [0.4-armagetronad] r3152 Remove unresolved conflits from past merge
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[2020-07-07 00:04:09] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad] r3155 Rollback minor version...
[2020-07-07 00:34:16] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1589 Merge: Make AppImage compatible with AppImageHub... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Add .AppImage suffix to versionless AppImages || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Add appimage validation tools to appimage context || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Made AppImage build appstream compatible... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Update docker image digests || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Canonical reformat of 
[2020-07-07 03:34:49] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1590 Merge from origin/beta_0.2.9 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Update to new docker images || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1336 Update docker images to builds from rudy || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1335 Use mktemp as fallback for tempfile
[2020-07-07 06:05:14] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad] r3156 Merge from legacy_0.2.8 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1591 Remove accidental debug logging
[2020-07-07 07:05:24] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad] r3157 Update docker images
[2020-07-07 07:35:27] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1592 Move icons into better directories...
[2020-07-07 08:05:34] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1593 Merge from beta_0.2.9 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Unifying steam image update
[2020-07-07 08:35:57] <Z-Man> "The AppImageUpdate AppImage also can be updated using AppImageUpdate." GAA recursive tongue twister
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[2020-07-07 09:58:42] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-07 09:58:42] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-07 09:58:57] -!- hitchcock.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-07-07 09:58:57] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-07-07 10:27:05] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-07 10:27:05] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-07-07 10:27:08] -!- kornbluth.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-07-07 10:27:08] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-07-07 20:49:01] <Lucifer_arma> I'm having the problem where F-Droid keeps trying to update and failing, I assume for similar reasons.
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[2020-07-07 22:37:03] <luke-jr> ok who broke armadaily and got us spammed
[2020-07-07 23:41:16] <Lucifer_arma> NOT ME DOESN'T LIVE HERE!
[2020-07-07 23:41:29] * Lucifer_arma was working on his stock program again, so it wasn't him.  ;)
[2020-07-07 23:41:59] <Lucifer_arma> Also, I scored a new RV to replace the stolen one.  So, back to the original plan again.  This is groundhog day, and I'm NOT enjoying it.

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[2020-07-08 03:09:14] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1125 Add SOCCER_BALL_SLOWDOWN_SYNC_INTERVAL (time between syncs w...
[2020-07-08 05:39:45] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1126 Add ladderlog event SOCCER_GOAL_SCORED and slow ball down wh...
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[2020-07-08 10:30:39] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-08 10:30:39] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-07-08 10:30:42] -!- weber.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-07-08 10:30:42] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-07-08 10:36:17] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-08 10:36:17] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-07-08 10:36:20] -!- card.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-07-08 10:36:20] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-07-08 10:43:42] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-08 10:43:42] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-07-08 10:43:45] -!- verne.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-07-08 10:43:45] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
[2020-07-08 17:17:03] <Z-Man> luke-jr: I broke it, sorta deliberately. It's dead now.
[2020-07-08 17:18:21] <Lucifer_arma> Did you give luke-jr a chance to give it last rites?
[2020-07-08 17:18:54] <Z-Man> Nope. It's going to Hell anyway.
[2020-07-08 17:19:13] <Lucifer_arma> That's good.  Means I'll see it again.  :)
[2020-07-08 17:19:30] <Z-Man> Individual builds would be broken sporadically for no reason.
[2020-07-08 17:20:02] <Lucifer_arma> well, we can't use buildbot until they change the master/slave language, because apparently we're no longer allowed to use that
[2020-07-08 17:20:48] <Z-Man> We have GitLab CI. Slave free.
[2020-07-08 17:21:17] <Lucifer_arma> nice!
[2020-07-08 17:21:32] <Lucifer_arma> I'm considering submitting a patch to buildbot that'll change it from master/slave to lord/serf
[2020-07-08 17:21:34] <Z-Man> Now that you mention that, we do have Master Servers, the master git branch (no slaves anywhere, though), but at least one black/whitelist.
[2020-07-08 17:21:57] <Z-Man> Helpful.
[2020-07-08 17:22:30] <Lucifer_arma> I'm not willing to go after any of that.  While we're reckoning with race issues, we also need to understand when the language is appropriate, not just declaring all of it bad
[2020-07-08 17:23:10] <Lucifer_arma> we could rename master servers.  The name is out of date, because it used to refer literally to a single server.  Now it's a network of peer servers performing a lookup job
[2020-07-08 17:23:27] <Z-Man> I was leaning the same way. I'm willing to be conviced otherwise, that the tech language used influences minds the wrong way.
[2020-07-08 17:23:46] <Z-Man> Yeah, they should be Supreme Servers.
[2020-07-08 17:24:14] <Z-Man> Metaserver is a popular real name for things doing their job.
[2020-07-08 17:24:17] <Lucifer_arma> I'd also like to see a solid argument against simply teaching the dichotomy that black/white comes from.  If there's any race part of it, we can and should transition it to the day/night dichotomy
[2020-07-08 17:24:53] <Lucifer_arma> because blacklist/whitelist makes more sense in view of the day/night cycle than black people/white people thing
[2020-07-08 17:25:41] <Lucifer_arma> I honestly just hate the name metaserver.  If you wanted to just do a switch to that, I wouldn't try to stop it, but I'd rather pick a different name.  It's an esthetic thing.
[2020-07-08 17:26:02] <Lucifer_arma> Also, moving away from the "Master Server" name might free us from people calling for universal bans enacted in the master servers :)
[2020-07-08 17:26:43] <Z-Man> Have black/whitelist a reason behind their name? I never bothered to look them up.
[2020-07-08 17:27:23] <Lucifer_arma> as far as I know, and while i"ve never looked it up, I feel pretty solid about this, black/whitelist come from black = evil and white = good, which in turn comes from day/night
[2020-07-08 17:27:27] <Z-Man> Would there be a good general replacement for 'whitelist'? "guest list" would work in some settings, if you're not on it, you're not getting in.
[2020-07-08 17:27:37] <Lucifer_arma> in most mythologies, the god of night is evil and the sun god is good, after all
[2020-07-08 17:27:50] <Lucifer_arma> apache already has deny/allow lists
[2020-07-08 17:28:11] <Lucifer_arma> which, as language, makes perfect sense for a webserver rather than the more general black/whitelist
[2020-07-08 17:29:07] <Z-Man> That's a more sophisticated filtering than simple lists, though.
[2020-07-08 17:29:13] <Z-Man> You set a default policy
[2020-07-08 17:29:34] <Z-Man> then define allow and deny overrides in any order
[2020-07-08 17:29:51] <Lucifer_arma> yeah.  Which is where I got a little hung up thinking about it.
[2020-07-08 17:30:08] <Lucifer_arma> here's one: in every context where we use blacklist, does "banlist" also describe the list?
[2020-07-08 17:30:29] <Z-Man> and you can have arbitrarily long chains of 'by default, you're in. But by this criterion, you're out! But hang on, by this more specific criterion, you're in anyway" changes.
[2020-07-08 17:30:52] <Z-Man> We only have them for allowed/blocked authorities, IIRC.
[2020-07-08 17:31:21] <Z-Man> Ah, I'm on Z-Girl bedtime duty. Back in a bit.
[2020-07-08 17:31:33] <Lucifer_arma> then we could just go with blocked list and allowed list, with the formal long names being blocked authority list and allowed authority list
[2020-07-08 17:31:45] <Z-Man> Right, I wanted to spam the Steam Store page link: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1306180/Retrocycles/
[2020-07-08 17:31:54] <Z-Man> Whishlist it!
[2020-07-08 17:33:33] <Lucifer_arma> sweeeeet
[2020-07-08 17:33:57] <Lucifer_arma> I'm gonna run off and smoke a few cigarettes.  I'm actually waiting for my son to get off work so we can go to the RV and get some information/tools
[2020-07-08 17:46:33] <guru3> Z-Man: amazing :D
[2020-07-08 18:12:23] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1337 Unifying steam image update
[2020-07-08 18:24:02] <guru3> "More Like this" lists Rocket League, Assetto Corsa, Wreckfest, Dirt Rally 2, NFS Heat, The Crew 2, Golf With Your Friends, iRacing, F1 2019, Assetto Corsa Competizione, GTA V, and CS:GO
[2020-07-08 18:24:21] <guru3> I'm thinking the Steam algorithm might not quite have dialed in on Retrocycles yet
[2020-07-08 18:37:46] <Armanelgtron> I mean... "Rocket League": we have Styball, heh
[2020-07-08 18:42:30] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1338 Rebrand Windows storage directories...
[2020-07-08 19:00:57] <luke-jr> Z-Man: the real question is, is it truly a blacklist at all? whitelist is well-defined, but blacklist has multiple meanings which sometimes are a bad fit
[2020-07-08 19:01:24] <luke-jr> (renaming stuff because people wilfully choose to misinterpret it is just dumb tho)
[2020-07-08 19:42:44] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1339 Correct forum links
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[2020-07-08 21:43:08] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1128 Add toggable CanRespawn check to RESPAWN via RESPAWN_STRICT.... || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1127 Add braking output to PLAYER_GRIDPOS and add SET_PLAYER_BRAK...
[2020-07-08 22:43:18] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1130 Alias PLAYER_CENTER_MESSAGE to CENTER_PLAYER_MESSAGE. It's a... || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1129 Fix a few warnings...

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[2020-07-09 01:04:51] <Lucifer_arma> I'm absolutely convinced that pigsty went on to work on Rocket League in some form or other
[2020-07-09 01:05:18] <Lucifer_arma> The very first version of the game appeared soon after the sty patch, and he had said he was testing this concept out for "something else he was working on"
[2020-07-09 01:06:18] <Lucifer_arma> Anyway, as far as renaming things to avoid appearing to be racist, we should definitely unify around "This is kinda silly, because it's actually appropriate to use these words in this context, but if it's going to bother someone, we're happy to do the renaming"
[2020-07-09 01:07:27] <Lucifer_arma> because digging in and fighting it would be a bad look.  I'd support keeping the old names if needed to ensure backwards compatibility without really removing them because that's consistent with the statement that "these names are appropriate in this context"
[2020-07-09 01:19:54] <Lucifer_arma> but I want to say that this sensitivity is going a bit far and I hope it springs back a bit before settling.  Protestors were toppling George washington statues because he owned slaves.
[2020-07-09 01:20:43] <Lucifer_arma> Seriously?  I get it, our founding fathers were imperfect people, and people of their times.  That's all true!  Abraham Lincoln was a white supremacist!  (During the Lincoln-Douglas debates, he reaffirmed that he believed the "negro" race was inferior to the white race)
[2020-07-09 01:21:24] <Lucifer_arma> But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water!  I definitely believe we need a new constitution, not just because we need to modernize it, but also because we need to eliminate the stuff about black people counting as 3/5 of a person and shit like that
[2020-07-09 01:22:27] <Lucifer_arma> but George Washington laid down important precedents for presidents, not only US presidents, but presidents and prime ministers of literally every country that has them.  His example, by itself, is one of those historical events that's so important it *continues* to impact billions of people today
[2020-07-09 01:23:27] <Lucifer_arma> but I'll ride this rollercoaster and see where it goes before I worry about whether or not we should be digging in yet.
[2020-07-09 01:24:32] <Lucifer_arma> it's also amusing to think that George Washington was such a vain person, so worried about his image, that in order to make sure his image was safe and secure and exactly "right", he had to leave an image of modesty to history
[2020-07-09 01:25:09] <Lucifer_arma> like, the Really Great Example he set in the first place was motivated 98% by vanity, and only 2% by Being a Good Person
[2020-07-09 01:43:58] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [tools-php-client-trunk-work] r6 Don't loop indefinitely on failure. Also, silence warnings a...
[2020-07-09 03:44:23] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1301 Redo forum link correction with correct encoding... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1300 Partial Revert "Correct forum links"... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1299 Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Unifying steam image update || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Update docker images to builds from rudy || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Use mktemp as fallback for tempfile
[2020-07-09 05:14:43] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1594 Merge from release_0.2.9 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] More forum link corrections || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Correct forum links || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Rebrand Windows storage directories... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Disable memory checks if memory manager is inactive || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Disable explicit direcx driver activation...
[2020-07-09 06:44:59] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1595 Merge from release_0.2.9 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Try itch uploads some more times
[2020-07-09 08:47:47] <Z-Man> Yeah, simply being a slave owner back then is not that much different from 'being stupid rich' today and alone is no reason to condemn a person and not remember the good things they did first.
[2020-07-09 08:48:22] <Z-Man> Unless they were unusually cruel slave owners, or maybe slave traders.
[2020-07-09 08:50:46] <Z-Man> See, today, when you're stupid rich, that wealth usualty didn't come from the hard work you yourself did, it came from the hard work you made other people do for you. And the benefit of being stupid rich is that you can make more people work for your benefit. Sure, today, those people have a choice about what they will do and have a life of their own, but when it comes to work, most peoples' choices are limited. They can pick which stupidly
[2020-07-09 08:50:46] <Z-Man>  rich guy they want to work for.
[2020-07-09 08:54:41] <Z-Man> So yeah, I'd leave Washington alone. Civil War Southern Generals, however, not so much. I mean, we don't have any statues of Rommel around here, even though he was a good and successful general (IIRC). Fighting for the evidently wrong side does that, even if it's just the wrong side in hindsight.
[2020-07-09 08:58:25] <Z-Man> Blacklists: if the reason for the name is black == evil, wouldn't that be a reason to move away from it? Sure, black != Black, but explain that to a five year old. And when you're done, explain it to me, because I don't fully understand it myself.
[2020-07-09 09:12:05] <guru3> I think it's as easy or easier to understand what an allow/deny list does, it's right there in the name. So not only does it avoid subconciously reinforcing any white == good, black == bad, it syntactically make more sense.
[2020-07-09 09:50:31] <Z-Man> Possibly, though I personally don't immediately grok that if there is an "allow list" and I'm not on it, I don't get in. Then again, that aspect is fundamentally unintuitive. Normally, if I remove an item from the list, less people get in. But if I remove the final item, everybody gets in.
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[2020-07-09 10:08:12] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-09 10:08:12] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-09 10:08:16] -!- tepper.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-07-09 10:08:16] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-07-09 10:16:41] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-09 10:16:41] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-07-09 10:16:44] -!- orwell.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-07-09 10:16:44] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
[2020-07-09 10:17:34] <guru3> yes, what happens when the allow list is populated vs empty is unintuitive
[2020-07-09 12:20:50] <Z-Man> guru3: While I have your attention, can you check whether the hash update for @forum logins is still working? I have a report from Discord where a user says he reset his password, can login with the temp password he got in the mail, but not with the new password he set afterwards.
[2020-07-09 12:22:08] <Z-Man> And I haven't investigated fully, but I seem to be unable to log in to @forums myself with the current password. I still can log in with the stored hash I have on Linux. I can't say which password that belongs to :(
[2020-07-09 12:30:16] <guru3> hrmm
[2020-07-09 12:30:22] <guru3> good questions
[2020-07-09 12:31:19] <guru3> I don't actually remember anymore whether or not I ported the code when I updated the forums
[2020-07-09 12:31:29] <guru3> clearly I altered the table because people can still login
[2020-07-09 12:37:09] <guru3> it should be working according to the code
[2020-07-09 12:44:48] <guru3> trying to test, but naturally I don't have an update to date compile of the game -_-
[2020-07-09 12:46:16] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1302 Try individual LP uploads multiple times
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[2020-07-09 12:57:44] <guru3> and now I've somehow lost IP connectivity between my desktop and VPS, making life extra difficult to debug
[2020-07-09 12:58:58] <guru3> I'm not entirely sure what happened, but possibly my VPS lost some of its routing
[2020-07-09 13:09:27] <guru3> and yes looks like the forums is doing something wrong with updating passwords
[2020-07-09 13:22:51] <guru3> OK worked out what's gone wrong
[2020-07-09 13:23:07] <guru3> and now am not quite sure how to fix it
[2020-07-09 13:23:12] <Lucifer_arma> a whitelist is actually more like a guest list than an allow list
[2020-07-09 13:23:30] <Lucifer_arma> like, when you have a band playing in a bar, the bar and band each have their own banlists, and those are people not allowed at all
[2020-07-09 13:23:46] <guru3> the issue, roughly, breaks down special characters becoming their HTML safe variants - e.g. & to &amp;
[2020-07-09 13:23:58] <Lucifer_arma> they also both each have their own guest lists, and those are people for whom space is kept open and they're let in for free when they show up
[2020-07-09 13:24:14] <Lucifer_arma> all other people have to pay the cover charge to get in, and for them it's first-come-first-serve
[2020-07-09 13:24:36] <Lucifer_arma> the black/white dichotomy comes originally from ancient mythology, going all the way back to the original god: the Sun
[2020-07-09 13:24:59] <Lucifer_arma> light was good, because it created life, and darkness was bad, because it was associated with death and decay
[2020-07-09 13:25:54] <Lucifer_arma> there's an argument to be made that the view of Black people as bad is based in the original light/dark paradigm, but I don't actually know anything about that
[2020-07-09 13:26:39] <Lucifer_arma> but even the Hebrew/Christian/Muslim creation myth starts out with "In the beginning, there was dark" and then this dickhead showed up and created light
[2020-07-09 13:27:01] <Lucifer_arma> the name Lucifer translates directly to "the light" and was used in the book of Revelations to refer to Jesus Christ
[2020-07-09 13:27:50] <Lucifer_arma> anyway, we see this trope more often in shows/movies from a few decades ago where the good guys wore white and the bad guys wore black, and from there we have white hat hackers and black hat hackers, whitelists and blacklists
[2020-07-09 13:28:16] <Lucifer_arma> the original hollywood blacklist wasn't a list of Black people, it was a list of people who weren't allowed to work in hollywood because of supposed ties to the communist party
[2020-07-09 13:28:43] <Lucifer_arma> also, if we have a 5 year old digging so deep into armagetron that they're encountering the blacklist/whitelist stuff, I say we recruit them to the development team
[2020-07-09 13:30:00] <Lucifer_arma> other babies we can't throw out with the bath water: in mental health treatment, "black and white thinking" is a huge topic because various conditions limit someone to that sort of extreme thinking, and that kind of thinking leads to a great deal of distress when people are caught up in it
[2020-07-09 13:30:29] <Lucifer_arma> it would *really* complicate mental health treatment if we had to dance around the phrase "black and white thinking"
[2020-07-09 13:30:43] <Lucifer_arma> luckily, the yin-yang symbol also comes up a lot as an answer to that sort of thinking
[2020-07-09 13:31:26] <Lucifer_arma> in fact, the yin-yang symbol existing in a culture that didn't have much/any interactions with Black peoples of African/Australian descent is one of the signs that blacklist/whitelist doesn't have a racist origin
[2020-07-09 13:31:46] <Lucifer_arma> anyway, back to the lists
[2020-07-09 13:32:20] <Lucifer_arma> I don't like the word "guestlist" for various reasons, but there could be an "always allow list" to clear up the noted discrepancies
[2020-07-09 13:32:44] <Lucifer_arma> even that's not perfect, right?  Someone on that list could still be temporarily banned?
[2020-07-09 13:33:50] <Lucifer_arma> also, banlist vs blacklist: banlist requires a specific act by a person to get on the list.  blacklists can be generated from other sources, like google's list of spam sites (or mozilla's) and don't imply that somebody did something bad on that game server
[2020-07-09 13:37:52] <guru3> ok looks like there's a function to un entisise
[2020-07-09 13:42:05] <guru3> Z-Man: potential problem solved, ask the user to logout and log back into the forums, then try again
[2020-07-09 13:42:22] <guru3> if it still doesn't work I'll have to look again, but I did definetely solve at least one forums armathentication problem
[2020-07-09 13:46:34] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad] r3159 Only use xdg tools when installing to root... || [0.4-armagetronad] r3158 Correct xdg tools usage...
[2020-07-09 14:23:58] <Lucifer_arma> how big of a jack do I need to lift a 28' motorhome?
[2020-07-09 14:24:13] <Lucifer_arma> total weight comes in around 15000 pounds
[2020-07-09 14:25:20] <Lucifer_arma> an 8-ton jack can lift, what, 16000 pounds?  Since I'm only lifting one corner at a time, I'm never going to have more than 8k pounds on the jack at a time
[2020-07-09 14:25:41] <Lucifer_arma> so an 8-ton jack should be plenty, right?
[2020-07-09 14:34:24] <Lucifer_arma> nvm.  I ordered a 12 ton jack.
[2020-07-09 14:35:30] <Lucifer_arma> this is a weird time we live in.  I literally just visited a web page to look at a picture of a package outside my front door to see if it got delivered to the right apartment before getting up to open the door
[2020-07-09 14:35:37] <Lucifer_arma> the door is like 4 meters away from me
[2020-07-09 15:14:07] <Z-Man> I get the part where light == good, black == bad comes from. The part I don't get is why we should stick to it when the conclusion  "Black People == bad" is just such a small step away, however fallacious it may be.
[2020-07-09 15:17:07] <Z-Man> Especially since the whitelist logic is hard to grasp. How about:
[2020-07-09 15:17:12] <Z-Man> Default is allow
[2020-07-09 15:17:26] <Z-Man> if something is on the deny list, it's out
[2020-07-09 15:18:01] <Z-Man> No wait, start again :)
[2020-07-09 15:18:12] <Z-Man> if something is on the allow list, it's in
[2020-07-09 15:18:22] <Z-Man> If something is on the deny list, it's out
[2020-07-09 15:18:30] <Z-Man> If it's on neither, it's in
[2020-07-09 15:18:39] <Z-Man> both lists need to support wildcards
[2020-07-09 15:19:14] <Z-Man> so you get the old whitelist behaviour by setting the allow list to your former whitelist and the deny list to the catch-all wildcard, probably *.
[2020-07-09 15:20:12] <Z-Man> (the second try gave the tests in order. So if something is on both list, it's in by the first check.)
[2020-07-09 15:21:02] <Z-Man> Our black/whitelists are only for authentication authorities and hash methods.
[2020-07-09 15:23:23] <Z-Man> Regarding the jack question, you obviously can't lift a CORNER of the CV. You're going to lift one side, effectively. If it's the front or back, you may have to lift more than half the weight of the vehicle, so going one number bigger was a good call.
[2020-07-09 15:24:18] <Z-Man> (Never lifted an RV, only regular cars, those usually go left or right when changing tires, not back/front, so no problem there)
[2020-07-09 15:34:27] <Z-Man> guru3: For me it worked after a password change. Was about time anyway. The old password was just alphanumerical, so dunno what the problem may have been. Could be that I mistyped it five times in a row, can't rule that out.
[2020-07-09 15:46:56] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad] r3161 Merge from legacy_0.2.8 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1596 Merge from release_0.2.9 || [0.4-armagetronad] Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.4-armagetronad] r3160 Merge from legacy_0.2.8
[2020-07-09 20:04:36] <Lucifer_arma> You definitely lift more than the weight that comes down on the wheel where you're lifting, that's for sure.  We'll be lifting right by the wheel, though, on the suspension, not the frame (like you usually do with cars), so it'll be closer to whatever weight the wheel is bearing
[2020-07-09 20:05:55] <Lucifer_arma> and my primary reason for generally not wanting to stop using blacklist/whitelist terminology is because those words carry meaning that we don't get otherwise.  It's not a simple word replacement, exactly, and since they're not racist in origin, I generally don't have a problem with them
[2020-07-09 20:06:32] <Lucifer_arma> but I'm in favor of making the changes anyway because right now, you're right, and it's pretty easy to make the jump to racist meanings, and it's better for us if we just go ahead and make the changes
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[2020-07-09 23:32:10] <Armanelgtron> huh, toggling between fullscreen and windowed mode seems a little unpredictable on the current 0.4...
[2020-07-09 23:34:36] <Armanelgtron> also, seems like "Apply Changes" now always reinitializes the screen
[2020-07-09 23:38:22] <Armanelgtron> eek, it's even worse on 0.2.9 - fullscreen just toggles between two resolutions, the windowed resolution and the fullscreen resolution but doesn't actually come out of fullscreen
[2020-07-09 23:39:44] <Armanelgtron> oh, it's just not reverting my resolution properly

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[2020-07-10 00:08:42] <-- Netsplit between *.net and *.split. Quit: luke-jr, danar, ct|kyle, dom96, theocrite, ljrbot, Lucifer_arma, MrBougo, guru3, Z-Man
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[2020-07-10 04:36:11] <Z-Man> Armanelgtron: it all works for me... are you on Wayland, by chance? I'm still using plain old X.
[2020-07-10 04:36:39] <Armanelgtron> nope, using Xorg
[2020-07-10 04:49:38] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1131 Make rubber zones time-based instead of depending on the cur...
[2020-07-10 04:49:42] <Armanelgtron> hmm, although I seem to no longer be getting the issues with 0.2.9, but 0.4 is still behaving the same: I press the toggle key and it sometimes seemingly reinits the screen but reverts to the same (fullscreen into fullscreen or window into window)
[2020-07-10 04:56:00] <Z-Man> It is supposed to do that when the change fails. Are you using the SLD2 version of 0.4? If you're using a binary build, you are. On SDL2, I can't think of any reason why fullscreen toggle should fail, it's a builtin operation there.
[2020-07-10 04:56:38] <Z-Man> Of course, what we build around it is super strange due to all the bizarre behavior different systems have.
[2020-07-10 05:00:57] <Armanelgtron> should be; I tried the AppImage as well as compiling 0.4
[2020-07-10 05:04:37] <Lucifer_arma> dammit.  I found a place that both gave me a parts catalog for my RV's generator and let me search by part number only to find out all the parts for it are discontinued
[2020-07-10 05:04:52] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: master4 is down. Do you have the time and resources to fix that easily? If not, it's fine, I have a replacement I can slot in.
[2020-07-10 05:05:08] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, give me a sec
[2020-07-10 05:05:48] <Lucifer_arma> how do I check if it's up?  ;)
[2020-07-10 05:06:07] <Lucifer_arma> Armanelgtron used to have a bot that would check them
[2020-07-10 05:07:02] <Armanelgtron> I should probably find that...
[2020-07-10 05:07:03] <Z-Man> I always enter the internet server browser in game and repeat until I got all masters :)
[2020-07-10 05:07:18] <Z-Man> Or restart my torunament server.
[2020-07-10 05:08:55] <Z-Man> Tournament server says it's down.
[2020-07-10 05:08:59] <Lucifer_arma> I actually have my face buried in a parts catalog right now.  I found the choke retainer I was looking for, now I'm going to see if this shop has any of the other parts (although I'm still relatively confident it's the solenoid that's fuckered up)
[2020-07-10 05:09:55] <Z-Man> Yeah, do those things first.
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[2020-07-10 05:10:31] <Lucifer_arma> I don't know what's wrong with the master server.  You should go ahead and slot your spare in for now
[2020-07-10 05:10:40] <Z-Man> k, will do
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[2020-07-10 05:15:06] <Lucifer_arma> there's no way this damn solenoid is $200
[2020-07-10 05:15:22] * Lucifer_arma needs to take a closer look at it
[2020-07-10 05:18:19] <Lucifer_arma> well, except for the fiberglass work I was thinking about, I think I've done everything I had planned for today.  Time to see if I can get to sleep, or if this generator problem's going to keep me up, heh
[2020-07-10 05:50:40] <Lucifer_arma> ]ping
[2020-07-10 05:50:40] <ljrbot> pong
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[2020-07-10 11:39:04] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-10 11:39:04] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-10 11:46:33] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-10 11:46:33] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-10 17:52:12] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1303 Increse expiry date for build_base to one week...
[2020-07-10 18:52:26] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1304 Manual final release only on tags...
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[2020-07-11 23:37:14] <Lucifer_arma> Linux solves our problems.  I just read an article about it.  :)
[2020-07-11 23:37:21] <Lucifer_arma> Blacklist = blocklist
[2020-07-11 23:37:25] <Lucifer_arma> Whitelist = passlist
[2020-07-11 23:37:38] <Lucifer_arma> Gandalf need not be involved
[2020-07-11 23:38:03] <Lucifer_arma> The master server gets renamed to the "Directory Server", and it serves up the "Server Directory" or the "Game Server Directory"
[2020-07-11 23:38:19] <Lucifer_arma> The service gets renamed to armagetronad-directory or armadirectory
[2020-07-11 23:39:18] <Lucifer_arma> the game client was never considered anything like a "slave", but if we have any master/slave in there, we should be able to switch it out to controller/worker or primary/secondary or whatever
[2020-07-11 23:40:07] <Lucifer_arma> we could also go manager/worker
[2020-07-11 23:40:56] <Lucifer_arma> we already have banlist for people who are banned and thankfully never called it a blacklist (I think we may have made a joke about a blacklist being racist at the time, which would be a neat little irony)
[2020-07-11 23:42:37] <Lucifer_arma> Also, we should go ahead and change Player Police to Peer Moderator/Peer Moderation
[2020-07-11 23:43:00] <Lucifer_arma> we'll do the same thing with the Global Moderators :)
[2020-07-11 23:43:21] <Lucifer_arma> anything else we need to rename?  I'm on fire right now!

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[2020-07-12 00:40:43] <Armanelgtron> "passlist" - allowlist makes more sense to me
[2020-07-12 01:03:30] <Armanelgtron> take AUTHORITY_WHITELIST... I would say I would allow authorities, not pass authorities
[2020-07-12 01:05:47] <Armanelgtron> and if there is any instance where pass might fit better, I would probably pair it with deny/pass, not mix block/pass
[2020-07-12 01:07:24] <Armanelgtron> but deny/allow sounds better than deny/pass to me ..
[2020-07-12 01:08:19] <Armanelgtron> meh, just probably don't use "passlist"
[2020-07-12 02:03:33] <Lucifer_arma> we could do passlist/pisslist
[2020-07-12 02:04:32] <Lucifer_arma> the issue with allowlist has to do with how "allow, deny" are used in other contexts where there's all sorts of nesting and stuff
[2020-07-12 02:04:43] <Lucifer_arma> we wouldn't want someone to make the mistake of thinking we wrote something that sophisticated :)
[2020-07-12 08:32:10] <Z-Man> Maybe we should just do the sophisticated thing, then? AUTHORITY_FILTER allow: forums, deny: *.swag.com, allow: *
[2020-07-12 08:32:34] <Z-Man> But that's work and for our current uses of filtering, very much overkill.
[2020-07-12 08:34:40] <Z-Man> I like Directory Server. It never was a master in any conventional sense of the word anyway. It was just called that because Quake called it that.
[2020-07-12 08:49:13] <Z-Man> Between allowlist/denylist and blocklist/passlist, I lean towards allow/deny. The case we have, authorities and hash functions, don't pass an imaginary border checkpoint. They are allowed, or not. I'd keep the functionality identical to what we have now and just rename them.
[2020-07-12 08:56:43] <Z-Man> Last item: the git master branch. Apparently the term did come from bitkeeper where there also were slave branches.
[2020-07-12 08:56:48] <Z-Man> https://www.hanselman.com/blog/EasilyRenameYourGitDefaultBranchFromMasterToMain.aspx
[2020-07-12 08:57:09] <Z-Man> That suggests moving to 'main'.
[2020-07-12 08:57:41] <Z-Man> Alternative for us, as we came from svn once: 'trunk'.
[2020-07-12 08:59:02] <Z-Man> Oh, almost forgot: I have Steam keys for anyone who wants to help test the builds uploaded there. PM me if you want one!
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[2020-07-12 11:51:37] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-12 13:59:11] <Lucifer_arma> For the main branch, we'll obviously just go with whatever gets accepted by the community at large.  :)  In the meantime, I think main/trunk/primary are all good options
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[2020-07-12 18:01:43] <Armanelgtron> I'll say trunk
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[2020-07-14 03:08:47] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1133 Don't fade the top line of chat out when center messages fad... || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1132 Make the server browser text less horizontally stretched. Do...
[2020-07-14 05:09:17] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1134 Add some STYCT_COMPATIBILITY_ commands to work around some e...
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[2020-07-14 11:30:04] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-14 19:12:24] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1597 Merge branch 'legacy_0.2.8_show_ip' into 'legacy_0.2.8'... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Hide requester's IP in /players output... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Improve local chat command detection... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Add SHOW_OWN_IP... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Make se_ListPlayers callable on the client
[2020-07-14 20:12:35] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1598 Merge from release_0.2.9 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Delay steam deployment for release candiates... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Replace cringy default instachat || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Comment cosmetics
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[2020-07-15 12:45:55] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1599 Replace const with constexpr...
[2020-07-15 13:16:02] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-build_codeblocks-work] r32 Add .gitignore file
[2020-07-15 16:46:48] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1135 Re-add PLAYER_LOGIN/LOGOUT ladderlog events || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1602 Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1306 Change build_prepare to when: always... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1601 Update git submodules || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1600 Update branch to use on submodules || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1305 Add 'git pull' before recording git 
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[2020-07-15 17:16:55] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1604 Add German translations to IP hiding items || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1603 Show 'yours' as IP instead of 127.0.0.1...
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[2020-07-15 18:47:17] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1608 Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1607 Fix clang warning another way... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1606 Fix parentheses in if statement... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1605 Fix various harmless clang warnings... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1308 Fix tiny memory leak... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1307 Remove undefined dereference behavior...
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[2020-07-15 22:17:57] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1136 Merge from 0.2.8. || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Hide requester's IP in /players output... || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Improve local chat command detection... || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Add SHOW_OWN_IP... || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Make se_ListPlayers callable on the client

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[2020-07-16 11:22:50] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1309 Add destructor to gCycleWallsDisplayListManager...
[2020-07-16 11:52:57] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1610 Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1609 Make tListItemBase safer...
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[2020-07-16 13:53:26] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1311 Do the list removing before releasing the cylce... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1310 Remove wall from linked lists in ::ReleaseData()...
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[2020-07-16 15:53:54] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1611 Merge from release_0.2.9 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1314 Initialize leak tracking variables... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1313 Pass input of correct length to ioctl... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1312 Clear environment on exit...
[2020-07-16 17:54:18] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad] r3162 Merge from legacy_0.2.8
[2020-07-16 18:24:25] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1137 Merge from 0.2.8.
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[2020-07-16 20:38:04] <Lucifer_arma> Well then.  I think it's time for me to start voting for Republicans.
[2020-07-16 20:38:26] <Lucifer_arma> See, when Alex Jones came out as a cannibal, it was funny and crazy, but otherwise meaningless along with literally anything he says
[2020-07-16 20:38:40] <Lucifer_arma> But now that Rush Limbaugh has come out as a cannibal, I can hear my True Party calling
[2020-07-16 21:25:04] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Merge from release_0.2.9 || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Initialize leak tracking variables... || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Pass input of correct length to ioctl... || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Clear environment on exit... || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Do the list removing before releasing the cylce... || [0.2.
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[2020-07-17 00:58:53] <Lucifer_arma> We need a bank or credit union or something that does "member grants".  You send a proposal to them that's worth money, tell them how much it's worth, and they give you the grant
[2020-07-17 00:59:12] <Lucifer_arma> Then they check up on you at some later date.  If you spent the grant as asked, you're fine.  If not, you have to pay it back.
[2020-07-17 01:00:03] <Lucifer_arma> Examples (all ways I want to get money for doing nothing right away): funding bits of open source projects (an obvious one).  Or how about solar panels for my RV to reduce how much gasoline I'll burn for power?
[2020-07-17 01:00:41] <Lucifer_arma> I just signed up with a bank that promises not to fund anti-green projects and to donate 10% of their profits to charity.  Ok, that's all well and good, and I'm happy to be able to be a part of that.
[2020-07-17 01:00:56] <Lucifer_arma> But can you do something more directly for me, since you're using *my* money to do this shit?
[2020-07-17 10:28:07] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [themes] r52 More stuff somewhat working
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[2020-07-17 10:48:05] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-17 10:48:05] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-17 10:48:08] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-07-17 10:53:06] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-17 10:53:06] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-17 11:37:44] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-17 11:37:44] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-17 12:39:35] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-17 12:39:38] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
[2020-07-17 13:58:52] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1612 Merge from release_0.2.9 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1315 Check whether clearenv() is available...
[2020-07-17 14:59:05] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad] r3163 Merge from legacy_0.2.8 || [0.4-armagetronad] Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3
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[2020-07-17 15:06:08] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-17 15:06:08] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-17 15:06:11] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
[2020-07-17 16:56:25] <Z-Man> When did they change the narrative from 'it's just a little flu' to 'it's going to be so bad we should consider eating each other'?
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[2020-07-17 17:34:28] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-17 17:34:28] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-17 17:34:30] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
[2020-07-17 19:45:49] <Armanelgtron> I feel like the way we do branches doesn't quite work as well with git ... if we were on git for a longer time, the unofficial branches would probably be seperate "forks" of armagetron, right? 
[2020-07-17 19:49:12] <Armanelgtron> I think maybe the downfall of bzr is the lack of decent web interfaces .. I don't know of any others other than launchpad
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[2020-07-17 19:54:00] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-17 19:54:00] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-07-17 19:55:14] <Armanelgtron> ]ping
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[2020-07-17 19:58:37] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-07-17 19:58:42] <Armanelgtron> ]ping
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[2020-07-17 19:58:43] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
[2020-07-17 19:59:12] <ljrbot> pong
[2020-07-17 19:59:53] <Armanelgtron> I dunno if my previous message even went through .. 
[2020-07-17 20:05:43] <Armanelgtron> anyway, I feel launchpad is fairly simple to use but unlike github/gitlab you can't just upload files using the web interface
[2020-07-17 20:06:37] <Armanelgtron> and also unlike github/gitlab, there's not an obvious download button
[2020-07-17 20:07:57] <Armanelgtron> you'd have to know to click Browse Code, then View Revision, and THEN download tarball
[2020-07-17 20:11:09] <Armanelgtron> the lack of ease of use for an outsider is I'd imagine why launchpad supporting git doesn't really help launchpad
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[2020-07-18 01:18:36] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: it's gotten so weirdly contradictory, it's mind boggling
[2020-07-18 01:19:04] <Lucifer_arma> We say Black Lives Matter, they respond with All Lives Matter, but I have a right not to wear a mask!
[2020-07-18 01:19:25] <Lucifer_arma> Antifa is this supposed organized group that hates America because it's anti-fascist?  WHAT?
[2020-07-18 01:19:34] <Lucifer_arma> (It's not an organized group, at that)
[2020-07-18 01:20:22] <Lucifer_arma> In Rush Limbaugh's rant, he was using the Donner party as an example of people "adapting" to changing situations
[2020-07-18 01:20:35] <Lucifer_arma> And here I thought wearing a mask and social distancing were adaptations to a changing situation
[2020-07-18 01:23:05] <Lucifer_arma> Also, the Donner party got conned by someone who promised to lead them to the promised land, then basically abandoned them along the way
[2020-07-18 01:23:12] <Lucifer_arma> So I can see the parallels here
[2020-07-18 01:23:48] <Lucifer_arma> The newest one I'm seeing is people saying the BlackLivesMatter organization is Marxist
[2020-07-18 01:24:17] <Lucifer_arma> which isn't exactly wrong.  I mean, at the core of socialism and communism is the idea that workers should own the value of what they make, and be equal politically
[2020-07-18 01:25:06] <Lucifer_arma> But 70 years' worth of Cold War conditioning has the average American convinced that socialism/marxism/communism are all about the totalitarian stuff
[2020-07-18 01:25:24] <Lucifer_arma> and European-style democratic socialism isn't taking root for a lot of people because it's, well, european
[2020-07-18 01:25:45] <Lucifer_arma> NotInventedHere syndrome strikes again!
[2020-07-18 06:14:56] <Z-Man> Confederate Flag: Free speech, clearly. BLM written on the street? A disgrace!
[2020-07-18 06:15:26] <Z-Man> Yeah, I was thinking that keeping bars closed was a smart way of adapting, but what do I know?
[2020-07-18 06:26:13] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: Our socialim-light also runs counter to FREEDOM. We have to pay for medicare and unemployment insurance and pension funds (not really funds, but no matter) whether we want to or not. As long as we're employed, that is. Freelancers can do whatever they want.
[2020-07-18 06:27:30] <Z-Man> Armanelgtron: yeah, the hack-* branches usually would be forks. They're in the main repo only because they're still synced with bzr and it was way easier to set that up in a single repo. Lazyness, basically.
[2020-07-18 06:29:25] <Z-Man> The intention behind having them in the first place is to give you guys a starting off point to switch to git, in your own forks then. Where you'd move hack* to master/trunk, then we'd delete the hack* branches and switch off syncing.
[2020-07-18 06:31:10] <Z-Man> Lauchpad's web UI constantly, and I mean that, gives me timeout errors after 5 seconds. It seems to follow the philosophy that if it's overloaded, it's best to fail fast, and only those really invested in what they were doing will refresh.
[2020-07-18 07:32:25] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1613 Update author replacements to what is found in trunk || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1316 Add comment on clearenv being optional || [0.4-armagetronad] r3164 Add test for exp10, use result...
[2020-07-18 07:52:07] <Armanelgtron> oooh yeah, the constant timeouts can get annoying...
[2020-07-18 08:02:30] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad] r3166 Remove illegal dereference of potential null pointer... || [0.4-armagetronad] r3165 Merge from legacy_0.2.8 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1614 Add .get() method to smart pointers...
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[2020-07-18 09:35:10] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-18 09:35:10] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-18 18:20:42] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-18 18:20:47] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
[2020-07-18 18:34:44] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1139 Merge from 0.2.8 || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1138 Merge from lp:~z-man/armagetronad/0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1616 Add comment on merge conflict resolution
[2020-07-18 20:31:19] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: ironically enough, we pay all those taxes too (including worker's compensation for injuries sustained at work), they're just much more hidden.
[2020-07-18 20:31:48] <Lucifer_arma> We see the social security and medicare taxes on our pay stubs (as well as the normal federal income tax), but the other taxes are taxed directly onto businesses
[2020-07-18 20:32:09] <Lucifer_arma> If you don't pay *those* taxes (there's like 12 of them, on average), then you're not allowed to do business in a state
[2020-07-18 20:32:24] <Lucifer_arma> they're generally paid at the state level, as well, so they can vary quite a bit from state to state
[2020-07-18 20:33:08] <Lucifer_arma> the way we pay for them, as consumers, of course, is that these are treated as expenses by the businesses, they're write-offs on their federal taxes (meaning the federal government ends up paying them anyway), and they're figured into the price of retail goods and services
[2020-07-18 20:33:58] <Lucifer_arma> literally, the only thing the average european has that the average american doesn't is healthcare, near as I can tell.  Everything else we like to directly compare is really a matter of degrees.
[2020-07-18 20:34:36] <Lucifer_arma> How much money does Germany spend on infrastructure?  How much paid time off are your employers required to give you?  At what point do you get overtime pay?  Etc.
[2020-07-18 20:35:01] <Lucifer_arma> meaning, we already have our own form of american socialism, it's been slipped in behind the mirror where the conservatives don't see it
[2020-07-18 20:36:26] <Lucifer_arma> But really, at a certain point, none of THAT even matters
[2020-07-18 20:36:48] <Lucifer_arma> You know those Lost Cause southern boys?  You know, the ones that say the confederacy had a right to rebel against the government?
[2020-07-18 20:37:30] <Lucifer_arma> Now that there are federal agents in Portland, Oregon rounding up protestors from unmarked vehicles in unmarked uniforms, those same Lost Cause jerks are saying things like "Good for them!  They're just looters and vandals!  Round them up!"
[2020-07-18 20:38:12] <Lucifer_arma> This is how we know those people are just racist.  They say the civil war was about states' rights, but when the governor of Oregon orders the federal troops out of the state, the Lost Cause people are like "No!  The feds have to crack down on this!"
[2020-07-18 20:40:02] <Lucifer_arma> Can we just hurry up and get to the election?  As of right now, Biden's starting number in the electoral college is like 308, meaning he's already sowed it up.  Let's just get it done and kick Trump out of office.
[2020-07-18 20:40:30] <Lucifer_arma> It's amazing the number of conservatives who want things back to normal that don't realize the last time we had "normal" was when that Black dude was president.
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[2020-07-18 21:35:21] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Add comment on merge conflict resolution || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Handle dashes in version number for Debian builds... || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Add docker build cache folder to .bzrignore || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Add .get() method to smart pointers... || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] Update author r
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[2020-07-19 02:06:14] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1140 Guess what this check with a nonsensical comment might have ...
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[2020-07-19 09:42:26] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-20 12:27:50] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-20 16:34:32] <Lucifer_arma> ]math calc 720/4
[2020-07-20 16:34:33] <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: 180
[2020-07-20 16:34:39] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, that's what I thought :)
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[2020-07-21 14:47:12] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-07-21 14:47:12] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-07-21 15:18:24] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1321 Set owner on TakeOwnership... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1320 Do not use freed nNetObject in ClearKnows...
[2020-07-21 16:18:37] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1618 Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1617 Merge from beta_0.2.9 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3
[2020-07-21 16:48:44] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad] r3169 Merge from legacy_0.2.8
[2020-07-21 19:24:49] <Z-Man> Armanelgtron: If you merge from legacy_0.2.8, you'll get conflicts in fix_gits.sh. It's not wrong to keep your changes and ignore the incoming ones. Slightly better, call update_gits.sh from the same directory, that gets your Windows builds the High DPI adaptions, too. Reminds me, we should determine one day what to do with the ability to now do AP builds.
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[2020-07-22 11:57:17] <Z-Man> I'ts ALMOST Steam release time!
[2020-07-22 12:07:39] <Z-Man> Released!
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[2020-07-22 22:35:36] <Armanelgtron> I just noticed that the directories for retrocycles are installed in "retroycles"
[2020-07-22 22:43:04] <Armanelgtron> also, 0.4 didn't automatically install the "Connect using Retrocycles Experimental" handler (which won't be helpful anyway if it wants Retrocycles:// instead of armagetronad://)
[2020-07-22 22:44:52] <Armanelgtron> but launching the Retrocycles script directly uses seperate user data... and I'm sure the time played counter probably doesn't get tracked by Steam
[2020-07-22 22:46:10] <Armanelgtron> and I'm not quite sure how to pass arguments to the steam launcher
[2020-07-22 23:00:54] <Armanelgtron> though I guess it's a bit strange complaining about that after using +ap for a while which also not only lacks a handler, but the --connect argument which it would use... so I've had the massive inconvenience of actually having to open it and navigate to the server browser rather than just launching from an online server browser :P
[2020-07-22 23:34:26] <Lucifer_arma> 2 tbsp garlic 1 tbsp onion 1 tbsp cumin 2 tsp chipotle powder 1 tbsp msg
[2020-07-22 23:48:27] <Lucifer_arma> 7 tbsp flour 6 tsbp oil 1 lb ground beef 3 cups beef broth
[2020-07-22 23:48:43] <Lucifer_arma> 1 can diced tomatoes
[2020-07-22 23:49:15] <Lucifer_arma> in case y'all want to make that.  Brown the ground beef, make a roux, sautee the spices in the roux, add the tomatoes and beef broth, salt and pepper to taste
[2020-07-22 23:49:27] <Lucifer_arma> it's a tex-mex sauce for burritos and enchiladas and stuff
[2020-07-22 23:53:06] <Lucifer_arma> the tomatoes are a 14.5 oz can
[2020-07-22 23:53:30] <Lucifer_arma> and yes I use MSG in my cooking, because I'm not a racist ;)

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[2020-07-24 05:20:32] <guru3> so cool getting the game off of steam
[2020-07-24 05:20:45] <guru3> but I'm not 100% sure about the setting used for the first play of the game
[2020-07-24 05:21:09] <guru3> I know it says things are slowed down, but even accounting for that it felt very slow paced
[2020-07-24 05:21:32] <guru3> and very easy for the player to end up cut-off from the AI and end up going around by themselves waiting for the AI to die - not very engaging
[2020-07-24 05:22:02] <guru3> also with the default rubber very unforgiving if you're unused to timing your turns, particularly if you try and grind like in the trailer
[2020-07-24 05:22:26] <guru3> both facets together I think make it a bit difficult for a new player to engage without dying constantly, which will turn them off from playing more
[2020-07-24 05:23:17] <guru3> I'd suggest bumping up the rubber, decreasing the arena size, and setting a finite tail length to help new players feel more involved with the game play, while giving them more to play around with for their first go
[2020-07-24 05:25:08] <guru3> it was just too easy to end up with a line down the middle of the arena with me on one side and the AI on the other and nothing to do but go back and forth and wait for the AI to kill itself
[2020-07-24 18:02:55] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad] r3170 Register .aarec playback...
[2020-07-24 19:03:06] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1619 Add installscript to Steam...
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[2020-07-25 00:04:24] <Lucifer_arma> why does my web browser download this url quickly, but python3's urllib is taking forever?
[2020-07-25 00:33:10] <Lucifer_arma> aha!  I was being ignored because my user-agent was a default python useragent :)
[2020-07-25 04:04:52] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1621 Change default camera to custom... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1620 Renamed function: nObserverPtr::GetPointer -> get...
[2020-07-25 05:05:12] <Lucifer_arma> this logic is killing me
[2020-07-25 05:05:39] <Lucifer_arma> I need to be able to check if it's after start_time or before end_time to make sure the script only does work during particular times of the day
[2020-07-25 05:05:51] <Lucifer_arma> the catch is: start_time is in the evening, and end_time is in the morning
[2020-07-25 05:06:31] <Lucifer_arma> but I need the code to be general-purpose, so I can change the configuration to anything I want
[2020-07-25 05:06:50] <Lucifer_arma> so it could be 2am-6am, or it could be 6pm-8am
[2020-07-25 05:07:27] <Lucifer_arma> and for some reason, testing this is putting a little monkey wrench in my brain and making everything come screeching to a halt
[2020-07-25 05:09:30] <Lucifer_arma> actual input format is 24-hour
[2020-07-25 05:09:50] <Lucifer_arma> so, 00:00-23:59 range, I suppose
[2020-07-25 07:35:14] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: my math brain tells me that just (time < start_time) XOR (time < end_time) XOR (start_time < end_time) gives something
[2020-07-25 07:37:06] <Z-Man> Or better (start_time < time) XOR (time < end_time) XOR (start_time < end_time), that's easier to reason about. Should be true whenever your thing is supposed to be on.
[2020-07-25 07:39:18] <Z-Man> guru3 is not wrong. I always just let the other guy pass, turn around to follow him, then cut him off, but of course I played that opening a hundred times now.
[2020-07-25 07:42:23] <Z-Man> Armanelgtron: The storage location change is on purpose, it would be weird to have the game store its data under some other name. At least for newcomers. We could make it so that if the retrocycles directory does not yet exists, it checks for the corresponding armagetronad one and uses that. Then veterans would not have to juggle configurations.
[2020-07-25 07:42:47] <Z-Man> The file/URI associations would still use armagetronad based names. The recording playback I added on the alpha branch yesterday is still for .aarec files.
[2020-07-25 07:43:47] <Z-Man> The URI one using --connect would still listen to armagetronad://, then. As you say, would not make sense otherwise.
[2020-07-25 07:44:15] <Z-Man> Armanelgtron: Yeah, I haven't found a native way to give a Steam game command line arguments on the fly.
[2020-07-25 07:45:16] <Z-Man> The two options are: Configure command line arguments in the UI. Those are permanent. Not a good fit for anything but forcing windowed mode or similar configuration based arguments.
[2020-07-25 07:45:46] <Z-Man> Or launch the game without invoking Steam. Which is what the .aarec association does.
[2020-07-25 07:46:59] <Z-Man> But telling steam to launch the game wirth appID X, command line options Y and maybe beta branch Z? No dice.
[2020-07-25 07:48:05] <Z-Man> The only thing I found is a command line option that lets you (permanently?) opt out of any beta branch.
[2020-07-25 07:48:47] <Z-Man> Steam is not very good at launching.
[2020-07-25 07:50:21] <Armanelgtron> hmm, so what about the missing c in "Retroycles"?
[2020-07-25 07:52:22] <Z-Man> Also, when you register different launch options in SteamWorks, the user then always gets presented a choice between them. You may have noticed that I included the server in every installation. But it's not configured to launch in any way because of this problem, everyone would be presented with this choice.
[2020-07-25 07:56:30] <Armanelgtron> also, I must have tried to launch the binary directly last time or something; the shell script seems to load the correct user data
[2020-07-25 07:57:34] <Armanelgtron> which I assume the shell script is what steam launches anyway?
[2020-07-25 07:59:23] <Z-Man> MISSING C? Dammit.
[2020-07-25 08:08:13] <Z-Man> Install folder is fixed, but only for new installations.
[2020-07-25 08:11:47] <Z-Man> Mine was still in "Armacycles", heh. Uninstalling and reinstalling updated it now.
[2020-07-25 08:17:05] <Z-Man> Oh, the URI connect handler thingie is only possible on Windows in Steam. On Linux, we'd need the launch wrapper script do do the job, which is a bit icky.
[2020-07-25 10:44:31] <Z-Man> One more reason why doing anything fancy like adding bindings would be bad on the Steam release: On Linux, it is meant to work only through Steam. Only when launched via Steam, it gets provided all the libraries. Unlike AppImages or Zero Install, I don't bother adding SDL and the like to the installation.
[2020-07-25 10:45:10] <Z-Man> It works by chance for you, because of course you already have those libraries on your system. But that's not true for everyone.
[2020-07-25 14:06:44] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1622 Merge: Playback simplification... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Make --playback argument optional... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Add multipass command line analysis... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Mark command line parser overrides as such
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[2020-07-25 21:40:13] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: ahh, but what if start_time > end_time?  That's actually the standard use case.  It's a stock market history retrieval script that should only operate when the markets are closed.
[2020-07-25 21:41:12] <Lucifer_arma> I slept on it and I have a new approach where I figure I'll just check the two cases.  If start_time > end_time, do one thing, and otherwise do the other thing
[2020-07-25 21:41:48] <Lucifer_arma> the only catch is that I have to check now against both to determine if I should use start_time from yesterday, or start_time from today and end_time from tomorrow to get my time interval
[2020-07-25 21:42:29] <Lucifer_arma> wait a minute, I just thought through what you wrote again

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[2020-07-26 01:37:14] <Lucifer_arma> well, it's still running, making the midnight changeover just fine
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[2020-07-26 03:09:40] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1141 Add LANGUAGE_RELOAD. Make it so CUSTOM_MESSAGE will now acce...
[2020-07-26 04:09:54] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1142 Add CUSTOM_CENTER_PLAYER_MESSAGE.
[2020-07-26 09:10:48] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1623 Merge: Less tooltip spam... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Give players a hint where they can disable all tooltips... || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1143 LANGUAGE_RELOAD (should) be able to load changes to language... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Disable tooltips by opening the player input menu... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Reduce tooltip repeat counts across the board...
[2020-07-26 14:41:29] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: My math brain's logic probably went like this: We have three numbers. Obviously, the result can only depend on the comparison between pairs of them. And if we imagine walking around in parameter space, whenever any of these comparisons flips around, our result also needs to flip. Ergo, just xor them all together.
[2020-07-26 14:42:56] * Z-Man 's math brain works a bit like the lizard brain we all have. The lizard brain tells us what and whom we should like, leaving it to the rest of the brain to figure out reasons. The math brain blurts out equations, leaving it to the rest of the brain to figure out why they work.
[2020-07-26 14:43:47] * Z-Man is missing bits of lizard brain in turn, probably. The bit responsible for facial recognition and social interaction. But who needs those?
[2020-07-26 14:44:48] <Z-Man> Advantage of the math brain: it's easier to convice it it is wrong. That's very hard for the lizard brain!
[2020-07-26 15:38:52] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: well, it's not running right now, and we're in the hours where it's not supposed to run
[2020-07-26 15:39:14] <Lucifer_arma> so I'm saying it's working fine :)
[2020-07-26 15:39:30] <Lucifer_arma> (I just copied what you wrote, changed XOR to ^, and changed variable names to match)
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[2020-07-26 17:12:23] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1624 Merge: Better onboarding game... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Change settings of onboarding game...
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[2020-07-26 23:21:50] <Lucifer_arma> well, it started again.  Since I didn't put a clock in there, I have to just assume it's working correctly.

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[2020-07-27 06:15:05] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1144 fix suspending
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[2020-07-27 08:50:49] <SoulOfSet> I would like some opinions on adding discord RPC to arma. (https://github.com/discord/discord-rpc). This will allow a user with the Discord client open to announce his presence within Discord itself. Basically, when mousing over a users name in Discord it would say something like "Playing RetroCycles" with a details line like "In Server Rx~ Loose Dogfight". Additionally, a "join" button could be added in Discord so that a user with the client open
[2020-07-27 08:50:50] <SoulOfSet> could click that and be automatically redirected to the server that the user is in. I think this would help with getting people in the game when friends are on, especially given the various armagetron advanced discord servers that already exist.
[2020-07-27 08:53:14] <SoulOfSet> The library is marked deprecated on github in the readme, but this is in favor of their new Discord GameSDK which is closed source and not GPL compatible. In a github issue though (https://github.com/discord/discord-rpc/issues/290) one of the devs stated that the new SDK uses the same underlying tech and current implementations shouldn't break. Its the same tech you would see if you followed their guide on rolling your own RPC client.
[2020-07-27 08:53:15] <SoulOfSet> (https://github.com/discord/discord-rpc/blob/master/documentation/hard-mode.md)
[2020-07-27 08:54:24] <SoulOfSet> I would like some opinion on whether or not this should be included. I've got it basically working on Windows, but I didn't want to go much farther if it would be shut down :)
[2020-07-27 14:51:05] <Z-Man> I'd like to have this functionality. Discord is quite big, and a 'is playing...' notice is one of the best advertisements we can get. Automatic word of mouth, so to speak.
[2020-07-27 14:51:58] <Z-Man> Of course, we already have this now basically for free with those using the Steam client who have Steam and Discord linked up. The join feature isn't possible that way, of course.
[2020-07-27 14:52:06] <Z-Man> <brb with more>
[2020-07-27 15:47:46] <Z-Man> The rpc library seems small enough to embed as source, and is dependency free (right?). It connects to the Discord client via pipes on the local filesystem only.
[2020-07-27 15:49:37] <Z-Man> So do I understand it correctly: Only on the client, the library is added, communicates with the already running Discord client there, which does all the heavy lifting. No modification on the server required.
[2020-07-27 15:51:19] <Z-Man> Is there overhead if no Discord client is running? Like connection attempts timing out? I would not expect that.
[2020-07-27 15:54:51] <Z-Man> The only mark against it I see is that while the library is Open Soure, it communicates exclusively with a proprietary system. There is no open source reference implementation. Legally, that is fine, on the level of using the Steam wotsitsname to upload builds there (just uploading zips in the Web UI would be possible there as a workaround).
[2020-07-27 15:55:47] <Z-Man> If the library breaks one day anyway, heck, we can always just rip it out again.
[2020-07-27 15:56:01] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma, guru3: toughts?
[2020-07-27 16:32:29] <guru3> seems reasonable
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[2020-07-27 17:38:49] <Z-Man> Dammit, my network is terrible today.
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[2020-07-27 18:35:11] <Lucifer_arma> might as well let arma users get scammed ingame on Discord
[2020-07-27 18:35:24] <Lucifer_arma> (my youngest recently got scammed on Discord by a phisher, heh)
[2020-07-27 18:42:49] <SoulOfSet> Oh dang O_O
[2020-07-27 18:47:52] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1626 Merge from release_0.2.9 || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1625 Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3 || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1322 Patch note generator handles multiple tags now... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] Change default camera to custom...
[2020-07-27 19:19:08] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: I think direct chat integration is not possible, so we're safe there :) What did the scammer steal?
[2020-07-27 19:46:36] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: temporarily stole his steam login.  Poor kid fell victim to someone using a photoshopped "certificate of authenticity" kind of thing
[2020-07-27 19:46:51] <Lucifer_arma> he got it back right away, after both me and his mom called out the scam
[2020-07-27 19:47:11] <Lucifer_arma> he's about to turn 17, and this was a few weeks back (months?  I don't know anymore, it was definitely after the plague hit)
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[2020-07-28 16:22:22] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad] r3171 Merge from legacy_0.2.8
[2020-07-28 19:22:59] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1325 Adapt to .AppImage extension || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1324 Use proper debian version for release candidates... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1323 AppImages get .AppImage extension...
[2020-07-28 20:53:15] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1146 Hmm, "rate" probably makes more sense for SET_ZONE_RADIUS th... || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1145 Fix SET_ZONE_ID_COORD and update english_base documentation....
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[2020-07-28 21:53:23] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1148 Add some missing command help entries. || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1147 Restrict clearing of logs and reports to owners.

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[2020-07-29 01:54:12] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1627 Merge from legacy_0.2.8.3
[2020-07-29 07:55:14] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1149 Add ADD/SET_ZONE_ROUTE and fix the relevant systems. Clean u...
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[2020-07-29 16:26:58] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1628 Switch over to LP series 0.2.9
[2020-07-29 16:57:04] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1326 Update Changelog.md and NEWS
[2020-07-29 18:27:22] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1150 SET_ZONE_DIR should get the same treatment too...
[2020-07-29 20:14:35] <Lucifer_arma> ]math calc 468/60
[2020-07-29 20:14:36] <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: 7.8
[2020-07-29 20:19:10] <Lucifer_arma> ]math calc 697/468/60
[2020-07-29 20:19:10] <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: 0.0248219373219
[2020-07-29 20:19:25] <Lucifer_arma> ]math calc 697/7.8
[2020-07-29 20:19:26] <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: 89.358974359
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[2020-07-30 00:28:37] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1151 Set a default speed for SET_ZONE_ROUTE if not already moving...
[2020-07-30 03:46:36] <Lucifer_arma> Finally!  Got my stock retrieval program working right.  :/
[2020-07-30 03:46:58] <Lucifer_arma> Who'da thunk a simple query designed to retrieve just the newest record would take half a second?
[2020-07-30 14:03:18] <Z-Man> OH NO! Wacken and the first Godot Q&A stream are on at the same time.
[2020-07-30 17:02:37] <Z-Man> Did I say releases are now painless thanks to CI? I lied! To myself, too! You still have to enter bloody release announcements in ten different web forms.
[2020-07-30 17:02:46] <Z-Man> (Forums are last)
[2020-07-30 17:03:43] * Z-Man ponders the possibility of announcement-less releases and hopes we can get everybody on auto-updating platforms
[2020-07-30 17:06:28] <Z-Man> This is taken me days.
[2020-07-30 17:06:39] <Z-Man> s/../taking
[2020-07-30 19:01:30] <Lucifer_arma> ]ping
[2020-07-30 19:01:30] <ljrbot> pong
[2020-07-30 19:05:21] <Lucifer_arma> ]math calc 5220/5
[2020-07-30 19:05:21] <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: 1044
[2020-07-30 19:05:26] <Lucifer_arma> ]math calc 5220/5/52
[2020-07-30 19:05:27] <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: 20.0769230769
[2020-07-30 19:05:42] <Lucifer_arma> ok, that's about 20 years of data in 5220 records.  Good to know.
[2020-07-30 19:59:58] <ct|kyle> Z-Man: can't you jsut curl them all? (map the difefernt field to the differnt text, and curl the API's :)
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[2020-07-31 12:30:20] <Z-Man> They don't make that easy.
[2020-07-31 12:31:20] <Z-Man> Also, launchpad wants plain text, Steam bbcode, and itch, sourceforge and download.armagetronad.org take markdown. The main site is plain html.
[2020-07-31 12:33:15] <Z-Man> And at least this time, the text needed to be slightly different for each. Permanently, too, probably. I probably should not write about serverside improvements on platforms where we don't distribute the server at all (itch.io) or where it is well hidden (steam).
[2020-07-31 19:24:35] <Lucifer_arma> That's a job for txt2tags
[2020-07-31 19:25:11] <Lucifer_arma> more specifically, it's a job for the main site, and my new cms for it that's not ready to take it over
[2020-07-31 19:25:39] <Lucifer_arma> but when it is, it should be reasonable to have a module that'll export news items to each of the needed formats, with substitutions for text that needs to be slightly different, etc.
[2020-07-31 19:25:52] <Lucifer_arma> now then, my newest problem to think about:
[2020-07-31 19:25:57] <Lucifer_arma> how do you know when a stock price changes?
[2020-07-31 19:26:48] <Lucifer_arma> you can't just do a != comparison, because a $5 stock is still a $5 stock if the price is $4.50 or $6, but averages around $5
[2020-07-31 19:27:13] <Lucifer_arma> but if you say it has to have a certain percentage difference, say 5%, then you get a drift
[2020-07-31 19:27:52] <Lucifer_arma> so your $1 stock could go up to 1.05, be considered the same price, and then it goes up to 1.10, which is within 5% of 1.05, meaning it hasn't changed
[2020-07-31 19:28:50] <Lucifer_arma> then it goes up to 1.15, then to 1.20, then 1.26, and you see what's happening.  It's actually increasing, but because each value is 5% or less higher than the previous value, you've missed the increase
[2020-07-31 19:29:27] <Lucifer_arma> I need to do a basic analysis of a stock's history and find the minima/maxima, which means being able to tell when the price changes direction
[2020-07-31 19:30:16] <Lucifer_arma> I was thinking of saying a stock price is an object, and making a class for it.  Then I'd feed in each new value, and if the value is within 5% of the average, it's considered the same price and appended to a list inside the object
[2020-07-31 19:31:00] <Lucifer_arma> that list is the one that's averaged together to determine if the price has changed.  Once I try to give it a price that's outside 5% of the average, then the price would be "changed", and the average would then become the datapoint
[2020-07-31 19:31:22] <Lucifer_arma> and that datapoint would be placed in the middle of the date range for all the prices
[2020-07-31 19:32:30] <Lucifer_arma> then a maximum would be found if the stock price was previously increasing, then it stayed the same for a bit, then it started decreasing.  The average of the price where it stayed the same would be the maximum, and the date on which it occurred would be the date that's smack in the middle of the date range of all the prices used to determine that maximum
[2020-07-31 19:33:21] <Lucifer_arma> I like this idea, but it seems almost as naive as simply comparing today's price to yesterday's to see if it changed.  I always feel like using a simple average is naive, even when it's not.
[2020-07-31 20:46:20] <Lucifer_arma> ok, after doing the breakdown on social media controlling the flow of information and how their algorithms were exploited in the 2016 election and noticing the microsoft isn't one of them,
[2020-07-31 20:46:31] <Lucifer_arma> I'm starting to consider that microsoft may have jumped sides
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[2020-07-31 22:24:45] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: what are you trying to do with stocks?
[2020-07-31 22:26:14] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: there's a lot more to it then just the price, definatly works best with some sort of historical comparison, maybe like 30 day moving avarage or something
[2020-07-31 23:56:20] <Lucifer_arma> ct|kyle: much more complex stuff than that
[2020-07-31 23:57:03] <Lucifer_arma> ct|kyle: but otherwise, trying to write a program that'll give me undervalued stocks, or find stock prices that are fluctuating in a predictable pattern (like cyclical stocks) so I can buy low and sell high
[2020-07-31 23:57:54] <Lucifer_arma> I'm imagining a table that stores a 7day and 30day moving average, at least, and I thought I could add a few fields to indicate how the stock's moving daily.  The four fields I have to work with for that are open, close, low, and high
[2020-07-31 23:58:30] <Lucifer_arma> rather than try to average those together (silly), I figured I'd just analyze each one.  So that'll be my most basic report on a stock's history.
[2020-07-31 23:59:00] <Lucifer_arma> I've just about finished the history retrieval stuff.  There's tuning to be done, and performance stuff, but it's doing the job correctly and not making duplicate records


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