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Log from 2008-01-16:
--- Day changed Wed Jan 16 2008
00:48 <guru3> zmanuel: what bug was there then? -_-
00:48 <zmanuel> It read over the end of the string to search.
00:48 -!- zmanuel is now known as z-man
01:00 <guru3> but that wasn't what was giving me segfaults
01:00 <guru3> it was dying on le
01:01 <guru3> *Len
01:05 <guru3> also what do you think about this c't" thing?
01:08 <z-man> I authorized them already :)
01:08 <z-man> It's a standard put-software-on-CD thing.
01:09 <guru3> ok
01:09 <guru3> i just today discovered my server was dumping email in .maildir
01:09 <guru3> so only discovered it now
01:09 <guru3> but mail aside
01:09 <z-man> me too.
01:09 <guru3> anyidea how i can initialize the strings so that it does segfault on Len?
01:10 <z-man> It's probably a different underlying error.
01:10 <z-man> on 0.2.8, I get crashes now because of nonexistent menu entries.
01:10 <guru3> but why does it backtrace to Len -_-
01:10 <z-man> Don't ask me, I did not apply the patch to the trunk.
01:10 <guru3> how i see it is when i go to the friends menu first
01:11 <guru3> it fills them all in when it does the menu items
01:11 <guru3> and then it works fine
01:11 <z-man> maybe something is deleted from under the ass of some function.
01:11 <guru3> hmm
01:11 <z-man> I can get it to work on 0.2.8, I think.
01:12 <z-man> It's just one tiny error :)
01:12 <guru3> one tiny error... that segfaults the game
01:12 <guru3> otherwise i think it works correctly
01:12 <z-man> That's what we've got debug recordings for. I'll get it eventually.
01:12 <guru3> oh that and when you hit the f key
01:12 <guru3> it doesn't immediately refresh the filtering
01:12 <z-man> the broser menu item -> server info mess is my mess.
01:12 <guru3> i imagine i just missed some trigger there though
01:13 <z-man> Yeah, you did.
01:13 <guru3> probably having ->show isn't the best idea
01:13 <z-man> And you also produced memory leaks by just tNEWing config items.
01:13 <guru3> :<
01:13 <guru3> i had no idea how to work around that one
01:13 <z-man> I was thinking of just giving servers with friends on higher priority.
01:13 <guru3> i thought of that too afterwards
01:14 <guru3> but i sort of like the idea of filtering
01:14 <guru3> because then if the ping is > cutoff you can just chop those off the list
01:14 <guru3> it's sort of neat to see the not responding servers, but there are starting to be a lot of them
01:14 <z-man> They SHOULD be purged quickly.
01:15 <z-man> never figured out why that does not work for everyone as well as it does for me.
01:15 <guru3> the game respects you ;)
01:16 <z-man> Yeah, it knows that whenever it shows me a bug, I kick it until the bug is fixed :)
01:16 * z-man learned the russian school of programming
01:16 <guru3> i just wind up digging myself into bigger and bigger holes
01:16 <guru3> started out with nice simple idea... then i got a segfault so i changed it... now i keep getting more segfaults
01:17 <z-man> They are my fault, I'm sure.
01:17 <guru3> i was also wondering if i did it correct getting the sg_enableFriends var with a global function
01:17 <z-man> Yes, that bit works fine.
01:17 <guru3> i simply could not figure out how to get at it from gServerBrowser with out accidentally making two of them
01:18 <z-man> Oh, you do know that tString::Len() returns the length PLUS ONE?
01:18 <z-man> Silly legacy from pre-std::string days
01:18 <z-man> once 0.2.8 is dead, we should get rid of the function.
01:18 <guru3> it's... in a lot of places
01:18 <z-man> I think you have a test for tString::Len() != 0 somewhere that always passes
01:18 <guru3> a string.Len would always be > 0 then
01:19 <z-man> right.
01:19 <guru3> i have for > 0
01:19 <z-man> Yep. Always passes.
01:19 <guru3> friends[i].Len() > 0
01:19 <guru3> that would work better as a > 1
01:19 <z-man> :)
01:19 <guru3> with there actually being a bug in StrPos
01:20 <guru3> i wouldn't be surprised if it actually had to do with that
01:20 <guru3> as i'm pretty sure i didn't realize that when i wrote it
01:20 <guru3> oh lol, Len()-1
01:20 <guru3> i bet i just copied that from somewhere
01:23 <guru3> well i'm pleased to report that even with > 1 it still segfaults
01:26 <guru3> valgrind confirms that gFriends is loosing memory
01:26 <guru3> it also happily reports that SDL does it as well
01:28 <guru3> ah right i remember why i used tNEW there
01:28 <guru3> i couldn't figure out how to have an array of configuration items
01:30 <z-man> Yeah, that's not possible with a plain array
01:30 <z-man> I added an array of std::auto_ptrs for that.
01:30 <guru3> clever
01:30 <z-man> No, standard :)
01:31 <guru3> it's clever when you're not exactly on top of the ball for c++
01:31 <guru3> i'm not on the ball at all. the ball is rolling behind me and i'm running away
01:31 <z-man> heh
01:31 <z-man> but that means you got past the poison arrows
01:32 <guru3> i came up with the idea and wrote something that half works
01:32 <guru3> so it's like... i got the little statue
01:32 <z-man> It's my fault that it doesn't, really
01:32 <guru3> i didn't do any of the language stuff yet
01:32 <z-man> the problem is that the function that updates the menu is called from the menu rendering code
01:32 * z-man shall fix that, it may even crash without your friends code
01:33 <guru3> i'm sure there's something with initialization of those strings
01:34 <guru3> i just came up with a way to test that
01:34 * guru3 waits for it to compile with the debugging flag
01:34 <guru3> that takes a while -_-
01:36 <guru3> it still crashes anyway
01:36 <guru3> :<
01:36 <guru3> 0x00002b0abcbc9fa2 in __gnu_cxx::__exchange_and_add () from /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.1/libstdc++.so.6
01:37 <guru3> doesn't crash in Len() anymore
01:38 <guru3> i like your menu idea more
01:38 <guru3> i don't understand at all how it's the case
01:38 <guru3> but i believe it now
01:41 <z-man> Well, its the classic bug of a list getting altered while someone else is trying to read it.
01:41 <z-man> the order of calls is:
01:41 <z-man> Menu gets rendered
01:41 <z-man> menu renders menu items
01:41 <z-man> menu item calls function in menu to update the list of menu items
01:41 <z-man> and if that kills the menu item that is just rendered, kaboom.
01:44 <guru3> so when it's building up the list of gServerMenuItms
01:44 <guru3> it's also trying to read that list
01:47 <z-man> right.
01:48 <z-man> I moved the call to the Update() function into a saner callstack and get no more crashes.
01:49 <z-man> Well, I think this is something for 0.2.8.3. Would make some people happy.
01:49 <guru3> ok by me
01:49 <guru3> i just was trying to avoid studying for exams
01:49 <z-man> heh
01:49 <guru3> and happened to have a good idea :>
01:49 <z-man> indeed.
01:49 <guru3> "good" in the sense that i could reasonably do it
01:50 * z-man makes "," his friend.
01:50 <z-man> and " ".
01:50 <z-man> Oh, one last problem, by default, f is bound to fullscreen toggle.
01:50 <guru3> yeah i saw that
01:51 <guru3> we could rename friends buddies
01:51 <z-man> b for buddy is taken too
01:51 <guru3> and put ourselves in for a lawsuit with aol
01:51 <z-man> for bookmark.
01:51 <guru3> but yes there's that
01:51 <guru3> i was thinking f for "filter"
01:51 <z-man> pals
01:51 <guru3> and then eventually could do other filters
01:51 <guru3> p pings the server
01:51 <z-man> darn, p = ping already
01:51 <guru3> and updates that particular one
01:51 <guru3> m for mates?
01:51 <z-man> homies?
01:51 <guru3> that'd work too
01:51 <z-man> mates is better.
01:52 <guru3> homies makes me smile more though ><
01:52 <guru3> the homies patch for armagetron :D
01:52 <guru3> ><
01:53 <z-man> We could do a poll :)
01:53 <guru3> is it on purpose that the keybinds don't work until the menu text pops up?
01:53 <z-man> No, those binds that should work before that should go to the menu event handler.
01:54 * z-man moved the friend toggle there already
01:54 <guru3> i see the troublesome Update call now
01:54 <guru3> i think
01:54 <guru3> in RenderBackground
01:54 <z-man> Yeah.
01:56 <guru3> so that gets called in the middle of the polling
01:57 <guru3> ahh yes i get it
01:57 <guru3> it does the update and then tries to write the menu
02:00 <guru3> i can't figure out where RenderBackground actually gets called
02:00 <guru3> -_-
02:01 <z-man> Put a breakpoint into it and see.
02:01 <z-man> It comes from gServerMenuItem::Renderbackground
02:02 <z-man> that comes from uMenu::Enter directly, I think.
02:02 <guru3> ah
02:03 <guru3> i'm going to try and write a lock
02:08 <z-man> lock?
02:08 <guru3> just a bool that makes all render functions return when it's set
02:08 <guru3> and set it when Update is being called
02:09 <z-man> no, don't do that
02:09 <z-man> I've already fixed the path over which the Update function is called.
02:09 <guru3> okay
02:09 <z-man> There is now an OnRender() virtual in uMenu that is called before the rendering process is started.
02:10 <z-man> And that is overridden in gServerMenu.
02:10 <guru3> gotcha
02:11 <guru3> is there a default global keybind for h?
02:11 <guru3> m for mates and the h for hiding unreachable servers
02:11 <guru3> *and then
02:12 <armabot> armagetronad: z-man * r7519 /armagetronad/branches/0.2.8/armagetronad/src/ui/ (uMenu.cpp uMenu.h): Added OnRender() function that is called before the menuitems are rendered.
02:12 <z-man> Both should be free.
02:19 <guru3> adding in the language stuff here
02:23 <z-man> So, shall I just commit what I have done so you can work directly on it?
02:25 <z-man> Hey, if the -tron ending makes trademark trouble, we could rename to Armagetrino :)
02:25 <guru3> lol
02:25 <guru3> ah yeah right, about comitting
02:25 <guru3> can i commit what i have first?
02:25 <guru3> i have trouble dealing with conflicts
02:25 <guru3> more like, i wouldn't understand some of your bits too
02:25 <z-man> Did you work on the trunk?
02:26 <guru3> yeah
02:26 <z-man> umm, I was working on 0.2.8 directly.
02:26 <guru3> well there wouldn't be any conflicts there -_-
02:26 <z-man> No :)
02:26 <z-man> can you just post another patch?
02:27 <z-man> I can handle things from there, then.
02:27 <z-man> But not tonight, needs to sleep.
02:27 <z-man> Why do evenings always end like this nowadays?
02:27 <guru3> yeah i'm staying up super late too
02:28 <guru3> oh here's a clever question
02:28 <guru3> in the GPL notice for gFriends.*
02:28 <guru3> should i change the copyright date?
02:28 <z-man> Yeah, sure.
02:28 <luke-jr> makes sense
02:29 <z-man> It's the start of the 75 years or so copyright period, so we should always update it or it will run out before we're finished :)
02:29 <luke-jr> haha
02:30 <luke-jr> z-man: !
02:30 <luke-jr> where should I store handles? :þ
02:30 <guru3> do one word language strings work?
02:31 <z-man> guru3: sure.
02:31 <z-man> luke-jr: what handles, and why do you ask me that at 2:30 in the morning, expecting a smart answer?
02:31 <guru3> it's not working for me -_-
02:31 <luke-jr> z-man: handles for the XMPP session
02:31 <luke-jr> so it would be per local player
02:31 <guru3> might be how i'm doing it though
02:32 <luke-jr> or per instance, in the case of no auth'd users or a server
02:32 <z-man> the server definitely needs a handle in ePlayerNetID.
02:32 <z-man> it's all it has.
02:33 <z-man> Can't see why the client can't use the same handle structure.
02:35 <guru3> name = "$friend "; <--- it doesn't like that
02:35 <z-man> ah, you need to do
02:35 <z-man> name = tOutput("$friend");
02:35 <z-man> the conversion is not automatic, sadly.
02:37 <guru3> well that was unexpected
02:37 <guru3> now istead of $friend
02:37 <guru3> it just shows friend
02:37 <luke-jr> z-man: is there 1 ePlayerNetID per player, or per connection?
02:37 <z-man> per player.
02:37 <z-man> guru3: have you updated the language file?
02:38 <guru3> ywa
02:38 <guru3> yes
02:38 <z-man> ooh, i don't know.
02:38 * z-man shuts down.
02:38 <guru3> im trying with a two word thing now instead
02:39 <guru3> well that worked
02:39 <guru3> i changed about 3 things at once
02:39 <guru3> so i don't know what did it really
02:39 <guru3> but it works
02:43 <guru3> i've posted the latest & greatest from here
02:44 <guru3> (onto the forums)
02:46 * z-man will look at it some time tomorrow
02:46 <guru3> grand
02:46 <guru3> finally i've written something again for armagetron :D
02:46 <guru3> i can go to sleep for another year now ;)
02:50 <luke-jr> lol
03:04 <luke-jr> is C++ smart enough to let me pass obj->func as a function pointer?
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03:09 <zmanuel> luke-jr: no. You'd need to use class::func, which will probably be the wrong kind of function pointer.
03:10 <luke-jr> that's what I thought
03:10 <zmanuel> in boost, there is a way to generate function pointer like objects from things like obj->func that would behave like you expect (the obj pointer is stored in them)
03:10 <luke-jr> so I'll just use the void* user data to pass 'this'
03:10 <zmanuel> yeah.
03:10 <zmanuel> however, those boost objects cannot be converted to function pointers.
03:10 * zmanuel powers off
03:11 * luke-jr mutters about C++ reserving 'this'
03:12 * zmanuel mutters back about C reserving "for" and "int"
03:13 <luke-jr> pretty sure you could redefine int at leasgt
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04:49 <luke-jr> ../aa_config.h:179:1: warning: "PACKAGE_VERSION" redefined
04:49 <luke-jr> that's annoying :x
04:58 <luke-jr> hey "ANONYMOUS", for unauthenticated guest access
04:58 <luke-jr> I wonder if any XMPP servers support that
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06:48 <Stewie-arma> hmmm, long time no see everyone
06:52 <luke-jr> O.o
06:55 <Stewie-arma> oh hai luke-jr
06:55 <luke-jr> hi
06:55 <Stewie-arma> did I miss many of your rambles?
06:56 <Stewie-arma> any religion talks?
06:56 <Stewie-arma> I am taking conformation classes...
06:57 <luke-jr> what are you conforming to?
07:12 <GodTodd> catholocism, silly :)
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08:04 <luke-jr> hm
08:05 <luke-jr> ePlayerNetID doesn't seem to be created for a servre
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10:36 <armabot> armagetronad: z-man * r7520 /armagetronad/branches/0.2.8/armagetronad/src/ui/uMenu.cpp: Better ordering for the OnRender() call.
10:56 <armabot> armagetronad: z-man * r7522 /armagetronad/trunk/armagetronad/src/macosx/English.lproj/: Merging from 0.2.8
11:24 <armabot> armagetronad: z-man * r7523 /armagetronad/trunk/armagetronad/ (22 files in 9 dirs): (log message trimmed)
11:24 <armabot> armagetronad: Merging branch 0.2.8 from revision 7453 to 7520:
11:24 <armabot> armagetronad: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
11:24 <armabot> armagetronad: r7520 | z-man | 2008-01-16 10:39:56 +0100 (Wed, 16 Jan 2008) | 2 lines
11:24 <armabot> armagetronad: Better ordering for the OnRender() call.
11:24 <armabot> armagetronad: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
11:24 <armabot> armagetronad: r7519 | z-man | 2008-01-16 02:15:54 +0100 (Wed, 16 Jan 2008) | 2 lines
11:25 <armabot> armagetronad: z-man * r7524 /armagetronad/branches/0.2.8/armagetronad/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Rebeautified.
11:25 <z-man> Odd, svn told me the merge failed.
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11:40 <armabot> armagetronad: z-man * r7525 /armagetronad/trunk/armagetronad/src/ (5 files in 4 dirs):
11:40 <armabot> armagetronad: Merging branch 0.2.8 from revision 7520 to 7524:
11:40 <armabot> armagetronad: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
11:40 <armabot> armagetronad: r7524 | z-man | 2008-01-16 11:28:09 +0100 (Wed, 16 Jan 2008) | 2 lines
11:40 <armabot> armagetronad: Rebeautified.
11:40 <armabot> armagetronad: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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12:07 <armabot> armagetronad: z-man * r7526 /armagetronad/branches/0.2.8/armagetronad/src/ (tron/gServerBrowser.cpp ui/uMenu.cpp): Crashfix for the server browser.
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12:11 <armabot> armagetronad: z-man * r7527 /armagetronad/trunk/armagetronad/src/ (tron/gServerBrowser.cpp ui/uMenu.cpp):
12:11 <armabot> armagetronad: Merging branch 0.2.8 from revision 7524 to 7526:
12:11 <armabot> armagetronad: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
12:11 <armabot> armagetronad: r7526 | z-man | 2008-01-16 12:11:39 +0100 (Wed, 16 Jan 2008) | 2 lines
12:11 <armabot> armagetronad: Crashfix for the server browser.
12:11 <armabot> armagetronad: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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14:04 <wrtlprnft> a crash in the server browser?
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14:17 <guru3> yeah
14:17 <guru3> that's my fault -_-
14:22 <wrtlprnft> was it in 0.2.8 or did it get introduced after 0.2.8.2?
14:24 <guru3> it was a by product of the way i did the server filtering
14:24 <guru3> so it's in 0.2.8 and trunk
14:24 <guru3> and everything probably going back to 0.2.5.2
14:24 <guru3> *0.2.5_alpha even
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14:32 <wrtlprnft> o_O
14:32 <wrtlprnft> the server browser never crashed for me, so it must have been well-hidden
14:32 <guru3> z-man described it as something along the lines of editing an array while reading it
14:33 <guru3> it just never crashed before because the array always stayed the same size
14:33 <guru3> i however went and changed its size
14:33 <guru3> promptly segfaulting it
14:42 <wrtlprnft> ah
14:43 <guru3> the big "Server Browser" title isn't a language string Oo
14:43 <wrtlprnft> if you keep pointers/references/iterators to the elements it'll segfault :)
14:44 <wrtlprnft> there's a couple of things that should be
14:56 <z-man> I only made those things language strings that needed a German translation :)
14:56 <guru3> ah
14:56 <z-man> Feel free to correct it.
14:57 <guru3> trying to sort out something on the server browser
14:57 <guru3> that tells you if filtering is on or not
14:58 <z-man> So people don't go "wtf? where are the servers gone?"?
14:58 <guru3> that and in the case of the list taking a long time to load
14:59 <guru3> it's just the best place, under "Server Browser" isn't very possible
14:59 <guru3> as that's a menu heading and it goes off into the uMenu code calculating position and whatnot, i think
14:59 <guru3> so i was thinking next to Server Name
14:59 <guru3> have a dash and then an enabled bit there
15:00 <z-man> That might mess up the table header layout
15:00 <guru3> it doesn't
15:00 <guru3> not at 640x480 or 1280x1024
15:00 <z-man> ah, right, plenty of space because we leave it for long server names :)
15:00 <guru3> yup
15:02 <guru3> the problem now is
15:02 <guru3> you can't really go from a tString to a tOutput
15:02 <guru3> and you can't use tOutputs with spaces in them
15:04 <guru3> and you can't << with tOutputs
15:22 <guru3> changed the function call instead
15:22 <guru3> now afk for food
15:29 <luke-jr> z-man: ePlayerNetID doesn't seem to be created for a servre
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15:34 * luke-jr ponders why arma ignores SIGTERM and SIGINT
15:39 <wrtlprnft> o_O
15:39 <wrtlprnft> didn't use to
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15:42 <luke-jr> wrtlprnft: only the server, maybe
15:42 <luke-jr> and only under certain conditions O.o
15:42 <luke-jr> I recall it being a problem with my old scripts, but only on Gentoo
15:42 <luke-jr> they SIGTERM'd the server fine on Debian
15:46 <luke-jr> wtf
15:46 <luke-jr> there's snow in trunk :þ
16:05 <luke-jr> z-man: what is a nBasicNetworkSystem supposed to represent?
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16:54 <z-man> luke-jr: ePlayerNetID only represents a player or AI, so naturally, none is created at the program start.
16:54 <z-man> nBasicNetworkSystem is a basic network system :)
16:55 <z-man> It holds the sockets server and clients communicate with.
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17:08 <z-man> And about the signals, I only register a handler for SIGCONT. The other signals are untouched, so should be at default behavior.
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17:57 <luke-jr> z-man: any easy way to get 1 per local player, with at least 1 globally? ☺
17:58 <luke-jr> #rating g5vc
17:58 <luke-jr> #rating luke-jr
17:58 <armabot> luke-jr: g5vc is 424th with a rating of 1542-1674 (from 1542-1673)
17:58 <armabot> luke-jr: luke-jr is 426th with a rating of 1542-1573 (from 1543-1574)
17:58 <luke-jr> g5vc: pwnt
17:58 <luke-jr> almost :x
17:58 <g5vc> i dont playing.
17:58 <g5vc> :)
17:58 <g5vc> so somebody used my nick :O
17:58 <luke-jr> g5vc: you never play?
17:58 <g5vc> nevah.
17:58 <g5vc> :)
17:59 <luke-jr> #aka g5vc
17:59 <armabot> luke-jr: ¿3954 g5vc
18:00 <z-man> luke-jr: nope.
18:06 <luke-jr> z-man: by "basic network system", is that inclusive of all network activity, or just client<->server?
18:07 <luke-jr> z-man: eg, when/if resource fetching becomes async, will it go in there?
18:08 <z-man> How should I know? It certainly can go there.
18:08 <z-man> Although I'd suggest putting advanced stuff in a derived class.
18:08 <z-man> I was planning to manage client connections and all the other now-static data in nNetwork in a derived class one day.
18:27 <luke-jr> well, my concern is how to get the XMPP stuff into the select/read loop
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19:57 <armabot> armagetronad: guru3 * r7528 /www/mainsite/ (archive.php index.php): some new news to show we're still alive
20:05 <armabot> armagetronad: guru3 * r7529 /www/mainsite/screenshots.php: screenshots page updated for shots in fortress, sumo, and ctf modes
20:34 <eddiefantastic> who
20:35 <eddiefantastic> guru3: you want some screenshots from ctwf, none of your screenshots show decent use of mapping
20:38 <guru3> sure i guess
20:46 <eddiefantastic> ok, give me a day or 2. I'll find you some styball ones too. Although you wont find a styball server up these days
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22:46 <madmax> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/compiler_complaint.png
23:01 <z-man> Heh, let's see how many players leave servers, their last word being "sohwhahtahnahssiam"
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23:13 <z-man> madmax: heh.
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23:23 <luke-jr> z-man: btw, software rendering kills ping somehow :þ
23:23 <z-man> really?
23:23 <luke-jr> and with hardware rendering, that quick-exit-crash bug is gone
23:23 <luke-jr> yeah
23:24 * z-man checks whether the multithreading network code is still active
23:24 <luke-jr> by "kills" I mean doubles
23:26 <vinavil> epsy: hello, how is it doing? should i draw th map?
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23:29 <vinavil> epsy:
23:30 <vinavil> did you work on it?
23:30 <z-man> luke-jr: could you try disabling the call to rSysDep::StartNetSyncThread() in gGame.cpp
23:31 <luke-jr> err?
23:31 <z-man> that disables the extra networking thread.
23:32 <luke-jr> o
23:32 <luke-jr> well, my development system is headless atm…
23:32 <luke-jr> :x
23:32 <epsy> vinavil, ah i couldn'T have time for it, but yeah, anyway, draw the map
23:32 <z-man> Well, then try it next time you get a chance :)
23:33 <vinavil> epsy: oh, ok. no problem
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View entire month
is a site that has tools, maps, and other various items. It orignally only existed as a server control panel, but I slowly began adding stuff such as a homepage and tools.
----
This is an LLM-free zone. In general, I am unwilling to use (fight with) any form of "GenAI" to write code for me. So, for the forseeable future, everything on this site will continue to be written by a very silly goose (wait that's me honk honk) with some parts written by other humans as well (silly hu-mon) rather than any plausible-series-of-words token-eating machine. Even my libraries are out of date, and suddenly that's a good thing!
(Although the style has changed several times and content has been added and changed, the base of this site has barely been updated since 2015. But it Ain't Broke!)
This site is also occasionally tested with older browsers, but compatibility is not guarenteed. Although, if you have an old obscure browser and something isn't working that previously did, I guess you can tell me (nelg) about it...
Gridder
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