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Log from 2007-11-14:
--- Day changed Wed Nov 14 2007
00:16 <Lucifer> GodTodd: what package did you install?
00:16 <Lucifer> robot-player-dev should have pulled in robot-player
00:16 <Lucifer> if you built from source, then the directions don't need to be changed
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01:46 <Lucifer> GodTodd: ping
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04:57 <GodTodd> #later tell Lucifer* pong
04:57 <armabot> GodTodd: The operation succeeded.
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05:13 <Lucifer> GodTodd: ping :)
05:14 <GodTodd> Lucifer: pong :)
05:15 <Lucifer> did you install player from source or from apt-get?
05:15 <GodTodd> apt get
05:15 <Lucifer> sudo apt-get install python-playerc
05:15 <Lucifer> I couldn't get the ada bindings to work
05:15 <Lucifer> then, to start the 2d simulator:
05:15 <Lucifer> robot-player /usr/share/stage/worlds/everything.cfg
05:16 <Lucifer> if you do an svn update of the trevor repository, I just put in the sample python bot that's in the player docs
05:16 <Lucifer> because, like I said, I couldn't get the ada bindings to work
05:17 <Lucifer> you have to install the 3d simulator from source, apparently, which isn't that bad
05:17 <GodTodd> error   : unable to open world file /usr/share/stage/worlds/everything.cfg : No such file or directory
05:17 <GodTodd> error   : failed to load config file /usr/share/stage/worlds/everything.cfg
05:19 <Lucifer> did you install the -dev package too?
05:19 <GodTodd> yep
05:19 <Lucifer> robot-player-dev ?
05:19 <Lucifer> hmmm
05:19 <Lucifer> -doc package?
05:19  * Lucifer wonders why those files would be in the -doc package
05:20 <GodTodd> didn't work
05:20 <Lucifer> aha, stage
05:20 <Lucifer> sudo apt-get install stage
05:20 <Lucifer> duh :)
05:20 <Lucifer> you have to install the simulator too :)
05:23 <GodTodd> ok...what's it do now? :)
05:24 <Lucifer> so, you have it running with a window open?
05:24 <GodTodd> yeah
05:24 <Lucifer> ok, here's how its setup
05:24 <Lucifer> stage is the simulator
05:24 <Lucifer> player is a network server that provides access to the hardware
05:24 <Lucifer> so to make it do something, you need to run another program to control it
05:25 <Lucifer> you can look at possibilities in /usr/share/player/examples, I believe
05:25 <Lucifer> yeah, there's some in there
05:25 <Lucifer> examples for different apis
05:26 <Lucifer> playerv --position2d --laser   <--- this gives you a visualization of the robot's sensors
05:26 <Lucifer> er
05:26 <Lucifer> robot-playerv
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05:35 <GodTodd> interesting
05:45 <Lucifer> 2-3 second communication delay to the moon, apparently
05:45 <Lucifer> so, did you get a robot to walk around?
05:45  * Lucifer explored a map a little while ago
05:45 <Lucifer> by hand, not running a program
05:47 <GodTodd> no...they just sit there
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05:49 <Lucifer> er, did you run any programs to run them?
05:49 <Lucifer>  /usr/share/player/examples/libplayerc++/laserobstacleavoid
05:49 <Lucifer> that one just walks around and tries not to hit anything
05:52 <GodTodd> none of them are walking
05:53 <Lucifer> sure?
05:53 <Lucifer> hang on, close it and start a different world
05:53 <Lucifer> that one's huge with lots of robots
05:53 <GodTodd> unless they're really really slow....
05:53 <Lucifer> player /usr/share/stage/worlds/simple.cfg
05:53 <Lucifer> robot-player /usr/share/stage/worlds/simple.cfg
05:54 <Lucifer> there's only one in there
05:54 <Lucifer> and you can see the whole map in one window :)
05:54 <Lucifer> then run the laserobstacleavoid one
05:54 <GodTodd> is he supposed to start moving right away?
05:55 <Lucifer> did you start the laserobstacleavoid program?
05:55 <GodTodd> yep
05:55 <Lucifer> then yes
05:55 <GodTodd> he's not
05:55 <Lucifer> I'm watching him move on my screen right now
05:55 <Lucifer> do you have the other thing connected?
05:55 <Lucifer> the robot-playerv ?
05:55 <GodTodd> PlayerViewer 2.0.4
05:55 <GodTodd> Connecting to [localhost:6665]
05:55 <GodTodd> calling connect
05:55 <GodTodd> done
05:56 <GodTodd> i think so...
05:56 <Lucifer> it could be interfering
05:56 <Lucifer> Do Devices->position2d
05:56 <Lucifer> see if "command" is checked
05:56 <Lucifer> if it is, uncheck it
05:57 <GodTodd> nope
05:57 <GodTodd> no checks
05:57 <GodTodd> cept for under the laser
05:57 <Lucifer> so you have two windows right now?
05:57 <GodTodd> yep
05:57 <Lucifer> and you started laserobstacleavoid ?
05:57 <GodTodd> yep
05:58 <GodTodd> does this matter?:
05:58 <GodTodd> Available devices: localhost:6665
05:58 <GodTodd> simulation:0     stage                                   unsupported
05:59 <Lucifer> er, yeah?
05:59 <Lucifer> hang on, lemme see if I get that
06:00 <Lucifer> where do you get that?
06:00 <Lucifer> when you start robot-player, or when you start something else?
06:00 <GodTodd> starting the playerv thingee
06:01 <Lucifer> here, shut all of them down
06:01 <Lucifer> I get that same line, btw
06:01 <Lucifer> then it lists other sensors and says they're supported :)
06:01 <Lucifer> ok, so shut everything down
06:01 <Lucifer> then start robot-player by itself
06:01 <Lucifer> you have a stage window open with a robot in it that's doing nothing, right?
06:02 <GodTodd> yep
06:02 <Lucifer> ok
06:02 <Lucifer>  /usr/share/player/examples/libplayerc++/laserobstacleavoid
06:02 <Lucifer> run that and see what output you get
06:02 <Lucifer> it's a run forever program
06:02 <GodTodd> now he's moving :)
06:03 <Lucifer> :)
06:03 <Lucifer> now start playerv and connect to it so you can see what the robot can see
06:03 <Lucifer> you'll have to subscribe to the sensors to see them, of course
06:05 <Lucifer> heh, robot got stuck
06:12 <GodTodd> can you combine them?
06:13 <GodTodd> the programs, i mean
06:20 <Lucifer> yes, but they tend to mutually exclude each other for some things
06:20 <Lucifer> what it is is player itself (robot-player) is more like a kernel for the robot, it contains all the hardware access and abstracts it all to a socket connection
06:20 <Lucifer> so the logic part of the robot, the part we actually care the most about (all we care about at this stage) is in a program that connects to that socket
06:21 <Lucifer> so we can write our own programs to connect to robot-player and give us sensory readings, then have our own separate socket connection to our logical brain part for more data from it
06:21 <Lucifer> anyway, the idea is that you subscribe to a sensor and receive its information
06:22 <Lucifer> some sensors can also be commanded, and that's what gives you movement basically
06:22 <Lucifer> so our logical brain part could literally be a bunch of small programs that subscribe to a few sensors and do something
06:22 <Lucifer> or one program with a lot of different threads, or one thread, or whatever
06:23 <GodTodd> ah
06:23 <Lucifer> there are config files for robot-player that tell it what the geometry of the robot is, what sensors it has, and what drivers to use
06:24 <Lucifer> robot-player automatically starts stage for us with a world if it's given a config file telling it about the world
06:24 <Lucifer> it'll also work with the 3d simulation (whose name I've forgotten momentarily), but I couldn't get it started because I don't have 3d acceleration right now
06:25 <Lucifer> the 3d simulator uses ODE for its physics engine, which is what we were already looking at using for our own physics engine
06:25 <Lucifer> it also has a terrain generator, and some other things.  Hopefully we'll get a pretty good lunar simulation out of it without hacking it
06:26 <Lucifer> I'm working right now on generalizin the python example robot into something we can actually start extending :)
06:44 <Lucifer> it really irritates me that examples always have the worst possible coding practices
06:45 <Lucifer> they're supposed to show you how something works, but they use such bad coding that you spend easily more time figuring out what each one-character variable means than anything else
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07:55 <Lucifer> heh, player needs to have weapons on it so we don't need robocode to play this game :)
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08:23 <spidey> http://files.samhart.net/humor/fail.jpg
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08:24 <luke-jr> spidey: u
08:24 <spidey> nou
08:26 <luke-jr> spidey: #freeciv
09:07 <GodTodd> errorist: Someone who repeatedly makes mistakes. Says stuff he believes is true, but anyone with common sense can see he's wrong. A dumbass.
09:08 <GodTodd> oops, i meant... luke-jr: Someone who repeatedly makes mistakes. Says stuff he believes is true, but anyone with common sense can see he's wrong. A dumbass.
09:08 <GodTodd> :)
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09:36 <Lucifer> heh
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10:09 <Lucifer> wheee
10:09 <Lucifer> I love it when the flood gates finally open
11:05 <armabot> armagetronad: z-man * r7393 /armagetronad/trunk/armagetronad/ (6 files in 4 dirs): Actually use the results of the GLEW checks.
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11:13 <armabot> armagetronad: z-man * r7394 /armagetronad/branches/0.2.8/armagetronad/src/tron/gArmagetron.cpp: Catching more exceptions.
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13:35 <armabot> armagetronad: z-man * r7395 /armagetronad/trunk/build_visualc/armagetronad.nsi:
13:35 <armabot> armagetronad: Merging branch 0.2.8 from revision 7381 to 7394:
13:35 <armabot> armagetronad:  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
13:35 <armabot> armagetronad:  r7389 | z-man | 2007-11-13 15:12:00 +0100 (Tue, 13 Nov 2007) | 2 lines
13:35 <armabot> armagetronad:  Fixed default recording path, it now lands on the actual user's desktop.
13:35 <armabot> armagetronad:  Added file association so you can watch recordings by doubleclicking on them.
13:35 <armabot> armagetronad:  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
13:43 <armabot> armagetronad: z-man * r7396 / (10 files in 5 dirs): "Rebeautified."
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14:13 <MrBougo> :o
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16:10 <armabot> armagetronad: luke-jr * r7397 /armagetronad/trunk/build/gentoo/overlay/ (4 files in 3 dirs): IUSE=glew
17:01 <MrBougo> test
17:09 <luke-jr> MrBougo: test failed
17:09 <luke-jr> sorry
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19:22 <armabot> armagetronad: z-man * r7398 /armagetronad/branches/0.2.8/armagetronad/batch/masterstarter.in: Sorry, bash required for now.
19:28 <MrBougo> luke-jr: test succeeded
19:32 <cusco> is trunk still broken?
19:32 <MrBougo> i'm hungry
19:33 <MrBougo> haha, you thought that it was an answer, didnt you?
19:33 <MrBougo> i'm so evil
19:44 <Lucifer> cusco: only one way to find out
19:45 <cusco> perhaps somebody could know
19:47 <Lucifer> perhaps the cat is dead, but you have to open the box to find out
19:47 <z-man> It works for me, with or without GLEW
19:48  * z-man starts to develop a quantum SCM system
19:48 <Lucifer> heh
19:48  * Lucifer wants an scm system that's immune to cosmic rays
19:49 <Lucifer> z-man: have you ever worked with ada?
19:49 <z-man> No.
19:50 <Lucifer> well, since my dad hasn't answered yet (I'm going to call him in a minute), I found another electrical engineer at the school that's interested
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20:31 <luke-jr> where's flex?
20:32 <luke-jr> z-man: trunk has zones v2 issues still, doesn't it?
20:32 <z-man> yep.
20:37 <epsy> luke-jr, ?
20:37 <luke-jr> he hasn't been around
20:37 <epsy> not that i'm flex, but it ight concern me as well
20:39 <epsy> <armabot> Sent 2 days, 6 hours, and 54 minutes ago: <luke-jr> ping
20:39 <epsy> ew
20:39 <epsy> 2 days i made nothing in any of the channels armabot's in ?
21:30 <[CH]DarkStar> i bet it's more for me :P
21:31 -!- ct|kyle [n=kyle@pool-71-97-143-220.aubnin.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #armagetron
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22:21 <Lucifer> #seen [CH]DarkStar
22:21 <armabot> Lucifer: (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself.
22:21 <Lucifer> #seen DarkStar
22:21 <armabot> Lucifer: DarkStar was last seen in #armagetron 43 weeks, 6 days, 6 hours, 9 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <DarkStar> music...
22:21 <Lucifer> that damn clan tag screws it up
22:22 <Lucifer> #seen *DarkStar
22:22 <armabot> Lucifer: *DarkStar could be [CH]DarkStar (51 minutes and 48 seconds ago), DarkStar (43 weeks, 6 days, 6 hours, 10 minutes, and 10 seconds ago), [Xpert]DarkStar (44 weeks, 0 days, 22 hours, 25 minutes, and 46 seconds ago), xpert_darkstar (1 year, 17 weeks, 1 day, 12 hours, 43 minutes, and 45 seconds ago), or [Uber]DarkStar (1 year, 19 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, 57 minutes, and 24 seconds ago)
22:32 <Lucifer> yay, got the ada bindings to build
22:32 <[CH]DarkStar> xD
22:32 <ct|kyle> oi Lucifer
22:32 <ct|kyle> i got you a picture
22:32 <ct|kyle> http://www.jaxa.jp/press/2007/11/img/20071113_kaguya_01l.jpg
22:33 <Lucifer> ct|kyle: did you read all that crap I wrote?  :)
22:33 <ct|kyle> yes
22:33 <Lucifer> that is a beautiful picture kyle
22:33 <ct|kyle> my desktop. looks fake though
22:33 <Lucifer> low resolution
22:33 <ct|kyle> high res
22:33 <Lucifer> also, the earth rise that's shown can only happen to a satellite in orbit
22:34 <Lucifer> well, the image is high res, but the imagery itself is a bit fuzzy :)
22:34 <Lucifer> so I just posted that I got ada bindings to build for player
22:34 <Lucifer> you're in linux, right?
22:34 <ct|kyle> yes i'm on linux
22:34 <Lucifer> gentoo, iirc.  Player is in gentoo's repository.  :)
22:35 <Lucifer> interested in learning ada?  Since the choice is pretty much c++ or ada...
22:35 <ct|kyle> i guess
22:35 <ct|kyle> i'm fixing my subversion right now
22:35 <Lucifer> have a preference?  see, I learn languages pretty easily, so I might be a little optimistic about learning a new language
22:36 <Lucifer> but ada was explicitly developed for this kind of application.....  ;)
22:36 <Lucifer> (and missiles and shit)
22:36 <ct|kyle> Java was probably the only language that took me a little bit to understand, but a week or 2 i understood it fairly well.
22:37 <Lucifer> have you worked with python at all?  ada has similarities to both python and java that are a tad surprising
22:37 <Lucifer> the syntax is very similar to pascal, though.
22:37 <ct|kyle> i've used pascal, but not python
22:38 <Lucifer> you'll probably find ada fairly easy to pick up, I'd guess.  It's strongly typed like c/c++, but syntactically very similar to pascal
22:38 <Lucifer> data types look similar, you use begin...end to mark code blocks, etc.
22:39 <ct|kyle> should not be much of a problem for me then
22:39 <Lucifer> semicolons at the end of each line :)
22:39  * Lucifer hates that requirement in languages
22:40 <Lucifer> well, when you get your subversion fixed, update your checkout (or make a fresh one) and look at it
22:40 <Lucifer> I'm anxious to start coding since I saw a working simulator, and now I've got an ada rover running even if it doesn't move yet
22:40 <ct|kyle> ok
22:41 <ct|kyle> revision 19
22:42 <Lucifer> cool.  You'll need player installed to actually do anything, and stage, but you can look at the rover code in rover/adabranch/trevor.adb
22:42 <ct|kyle> ok
22:43 <ct|kyle> similar to Visual basic also
22:45 -!- P4|away is now known as P4
22:48 <Lucifer> so to get player, it's probably in at least two packages:  player and stage.  Then there's a third package whose name I've forgotten that gives a 3d simulator using ODE for the physics
22:50 <ct|kyle> what's a website for it?
22:51 <Lucifer> http://playerstage.sourceforge.net/
22:52 <Lucifer> so right now, besides us, I've got a local mechanical engineering major and an electrical engineer, but the EE's commitment is probably going to be more of a mentor role
22:52 <ct|kyle> ok
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23:03 <Lucifer> guru3: forums are down
23:03 <Lucifer> guru3: forums are back up
23:03 <guru3> Lucifer: ok
23:03 <Lucifer> wow, we're almost at 1000 views of the lunar xprize thread.
23:03 <ct|kyle> wow
23:04 <Lucifer> guru3: must have been that cosmic radiation I've been reading so much about the last couple of days
23:04 <ct|kyle> I've been watching too much NASA TV lately
23:05 <Lucifer> I think we need the rover to be pretty autonomous.
23:05 <Lucifer> the round trip response time to the moon is nearly 3 seconds, which means if we do direct control of the robot, we're going to have to have it go pretty slow
23:06 <guru3> i need to mangle inbound packets so i can put them through QoS
23:06 <guru3> :/
23:06 <ct|kyle> Yes i think so too
23:06 <ct|kyle> 3 seconds? i just read over 8 minutes 1 way
23:07 <ct|kyle> ah
23:07 <ct|kyle> i see what i read wrong
23:08 <Lucifer> tht's mars, isn't it?
23:08 <Lucifer> or is it sun->earth
23:08 <ct|kyle> no the sun
23:08 <ct|kyle> 1.255 seconds for moon 1 way
23:10 <ct|kyle> i think the bot needs to stop to take a steel photo. but continue travel while uploading
23:11 <ct|kyle> we also may loose communications with it for some amount of time. for instance today the space station was out of contact for 18 minutes
23:11 <Lucifer> yeah, it can do that.  We'll work out specifics of how it works while coding.  :)
23:12 <Lucifer> that's one of the reasons I want the base station to be able to cache communications
23:12 <Lucifer> did they say why the space station was out of contact?  solar flare?  Or just where it was in its orbit?
23:13 <ct|kyle> where it was in orbit. they said the satellites were being used by another company. usually its about 3 minutes each orbit.
23:16 <Lucifer> well, that gives us an idea of how much we can rely on satellites currently in orbit around the earth
23:16 <ct|kyle> yes
23:17 <Lucifer> if we can blanket the earth and the moon with our own satellites, we might be able to keep pretty close to the 1.25 second transmission time :)
23:17 <Lucifer> but that depends largely on the delivery system :/
23:17 <ct|kyle> ya
23:19 <ct|kyle> oh and we can get a copy of AA downloaded once we win all the prizes :D
23:19 <Lucifer> yeah :)
23:20 <Lucifer> we might still be able to do the download as long as we meet their other transmission requirements :)
23:20 <ct|kyle> :D
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