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Log from 2007-05-31:
--- Day changed Thu May 31 2007
00:00 <Lucifer_arma> http://eugenics.davefancella.com/index.php/Cities
00:00 <mkzelda> GodTodd: you should do it or he'll use ping
00:00 <GodTodd> luke-jr_work: bull...everytime you talk down to someone or insinuate that you are better than them you say it
00:00 <Lucifer_arma> exactly, that's a requirement for something to be considered emotional abuse
00:00 <@luke-jr_work> nope
00:01 <GodTodd> besides...it's "i'm great *or smth*....you can substitute anything in the last part if you don't like the first part :)
00:01 <mkzelda> its also sarcastic
00:01 <GodTodd> very much so :)
00:01 <Lucifer_arma> heh, if someone made such an alias making fun of me, I'd laugh with them :)
00:02 <Lucifer_arma> I like jokes
00:02 <mkzelda> but someone's client has a built in </sarcastic> at the start so he never sees it
00:02 -!- mode/#armagetron [+ooo BotSub GodTodd mkzelda] by luke-jr_work
00:02 <@mkzelda> heh
00:02 <Vanhayes> hmm, wonder how long it will take...
00:02  * GodTodd doesn't abuse op
00:02 <Lucifer_arma> mayb eI should op up and kick whoever kicks luke
00:02 <@mkzelda> is this like a wild west standoff?
00:02 -!- mode/#armagetron [+o Lucifer_bed] by luke-jr_work
00:03 <Lucifer_arma> great, now my kids can kick us
00:03 <@GodTodd> haha
00:03 -!- mode/#armagetron [+oo P4 Vanhayes] by luke-jr_work
00:03 <Lucifer_arma> (actually, that console is locked, so you can all relax)
00:03  * Vanhayes has a problem with having power
00:03  * GodTodd wasn't worried.
00:03 <@Vanhayes> I usually abuse it
00:03 <@GodTodd> w00t...i'm kidless tonight :)
00:04 <Lucifer_arma> but not hungry, I take it?
00:04 <@luke-jr_work> there is no other team GodTodd 
00:04 <@GodTodd> in which sport, luke?
00:04 <@luke-jr_work> looks like I get the $95k job
00:04 <Lucifer_arma> man, when I was 12, everythin was a sex joke.  Now I'm a bit older than that, and everything's a cannibalism joke
00:04 <@GodTodd> i prefer fart jokes
00:05 <@luke-jr_work> should I take it?
00:05 <Lucifer_arma> oh yeah, I need to write the tech page still
00:05 <@GodTodd> luke-jr_work: work hard and you might make as much as my wife does
00:05  * Lucifer_arma is filling in the wiki with last night's discussion
00:05 <@mkzelda> i prefer nazi racist evolution jokes
00:05 <@mkzelda> and aids jokes
00:05 <Lucifer_arma> I like jokes where the punchline reads "Need another seven astronauts"
00:05 <@mkzelda> when life gives you aids, make lemonaids
00:06 <@mkzelda> er, when god gives you aids
00:06 <@mkzelda> cause god gives you aids
00:06 <@mkzelda> dunno if you knew that
00:06 <@luke-jr_work> no
00:06 <@luke-jr_work> gays do
00:06 <@mkzelda> its proven scientific fact
00:07 <@mkzelda> just like the natural disasters are gods way of punishing gays
00:07 <@GodTodd> hrmmm...spreading lies...is that a kickable offense? ;)
00:07 <@Vanhayes> I say its the monkeys that give you aids
00:07 <@Vanhayes> damn monkeys
00:07 -!- mode/#armagetron [-ooo arctanx BotSub duudii] by luke-jr_work
00:07 -!- mode/#armagetron [-ooo eddiefantastic GodTodd guru3] by luke-jr_work
00:07 -!- mode/#armagetron [-ooo Lucifer_arma Lucifer_bed luke-jr_] by luke-jr_work
00:07 <Lucifer_arma> I spread lies like butter--on my toast
00:07 -!- mode/#armagetron [-ooo luke-jr_work mkzelda P4] by luke-jr_work
00:07 <mkzelda> no no its definatly god that gives you aids
00:07 <GodTodd> i spread lies like a diseased whore's legs
00:08 <@Vanhayes> argh, soooo tempted to abuse power
00:08 <Lucifer_arma> what are you talking about?  God created aids to force gay people to get married!
00:08 <luke-jr_work> even if they get married, gays would still be damned
00:09 <@Vanhayes> fuck it, im abusing it
00:09 -!- luke-jr_work was kicked from #armagetron by Vanhayes [Vanhayes]
00:09 <Lucifer_arma> did anybody go read the cities page I linked?
00:09 -!- luke-jr_ was kicked from #armagetron by Vanhayes [Vanhayes]
00:09 <GodTodd> haha
00:09 -!- mode/#armagetron [-o Vanhayes] by Vanhayes
00:09 <Vanhayes> I think i resisted pretty well
00:10 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, you made it, er, let's see
00:10 <Lucifer_arma> 6 minutes
00:10 <Lucifer_arma> that's probably a new record for you
00:11 <Vanhayes> I warned when he first gave it to me, then he takes it from everyone but me, He was egging me on
00:11 <Lucifer_arma> don't blame him, man, that's emotional abuse
00:11 <Vanhayes> trying to call my bluff, I couldnt have that
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00:13 <mkzelda> this channel has a good energy in it atm
00:13 <mkzelda> it feels cleaner
00:15 <Lucifer_arma> I think we shouldn't bother with science points
00:15 <mkzelda> !luke
00:15 <BotSub> blah blah jesus blah blah i'm great or smth blah blah RTFM blah blah stfu baka noob blah blah
00:15 <Lucifer_arma> that's a nice abstraction, but I think we should just use regular resources
00:15 <Lucifer_arma> that way technologies that require investment of specific resources can use those, and techs that require investment of food will use that, etc.
00:15 <Vanhayes> how would you get tech then?
00:15 <Vanhayes> ah, ok
00:15 <Lucifer_arma> by pumping your surplus into tech development
00:16 <Vanhayes> so you only get techpoints if you have more then you need of something?
00:16 <Lucifer_arma> then we'll convert the resources into knowledge using the system we talked about last night
00:16 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, can't resource tech without it
00:16 <Vanhayes> #realchatlogs
00:16 <Vanhayes> aw
00:16 <Lucifer_arma> er
00:16 <Lucifer_arma> can't research tech without a surplus of something
00:17 <Lucifer_arma> only that's not anywhere near accurate
00:17 <Lucifer_arma> necessity is the mother of invention, doesn't work if you require a surplus
00:18 <Lucifer_arma> ok, I got something that akira may not like
00:18 <Lucifer_arma> you earn science points in a given discipline, where disciplines are defined in an xml file
00:18 <Lucifer_arma> so chemistry, physics, etc.
00:19 <Lucifer_arma> points in each discipline are derived from resource production
00:19 <Lucifer_arma> so you could say for every 10 shields, with 4 food, you get 5 chemistry points
00:20 -!- P4 [i=p4z@ebd210.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
00:20 -!- P4|away is now known as P4
00:21 <Lucifer_arma> so each specific tech has a cost associated that can be several disciplines
00:21 <Lucifer_arma> so rocketry would require engineering points and chemistry points, for example
00:21 <Lucifer_arma> so no surplus required, your science points come straight from what you produce
00:22 <Lucifer_arma> we might include modifiers ingame based on production.  So if you build a large military and keep it maintained, maybe you can get bonus points for military techs
00:22 <GodTodd> are we figuring literacy rate and stuff too?
00:22 <Lucifer_arma> we'll have to, but how that affects science points I don't know
00:22 <Lucifer_arma> maybe we can just multiply science points by literacy?
00:23 <GodTodd> well...the more literate a civ the faster you get advances
00:23 <Lucifer_arma> so if only 50% of your population is literate, then you only get 50% of the points
00:23 <GodTodd> that's about what i was thinking
00:23 <Lucifer_arma> with some arbitrary minimum defined, because you'll start at 0% anyway
00:23 <Lucifer_arma> and we need to bootstrap it somehow
00:24 <GodTodd> right
00:24 <Lucifer_arma> we'll make ingame statistics that are computed and available to xml files to use, and then we'll play with them to figure out what works best :)
00:24 <Lucifer_arma> literacy rate will be one of them
00:24 <Lucifer_arma> unemployment another
00:24 <Lucifer_arma> etc
00:25 <GodTodd> cool :)
00:26 <Lucifer_arma> so basically every resource worked should generate also science points
00:26 <GodTodd> right
00:26 <Lucifer_arma> then you pick disciplinary priority that will be used computing science points
00:26 <Lucifer_arma> otherwise the server will be confused and we'll have to write hardcore optimization routines (which we'll have to write anyway)
00:27 <Lucifer_arma> I wanted to require special surveyors to be able to find resources
00:27 <Lucifer_arma> so you can't mine, say, uranium, until a surveyor has walked through the area
00:27 <Lucifer_arma> that is, a surveyor capable of finding uranium
00:27 <GodTodd> right
00:27 <GodTodd> which you'd need nuclear power to recognize it
00:28 <GodTodd> for what it is
00:28 <Lucifer_arma> no, something that's just below nuclear power, because you'd need to work uranium to research nuclear power
00:28 <GodTodd> well...maybe not
00:28 <GodTodd> chemistry actually should give recognition but not ability to refine
00:28 <Lucifer_arma> we could even have different sets of disciplines for ancient times, even
00:29 <Lucifer_arma> so we could have alchemy, agriculture, astrology, etc.
00:29 -!- akira_ [n=chatzill@p54b4ed5f.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ChatZilla [Firefox]"]
00:29 <Lucifer_arma> that would be neat :)
00:29 <GodTodd> as long as we do the crossovers decently :)
00:30 <Lucifer_arma> yeah
00:30 <Lucifer_arma> well, the chemistry crossover happens around newton's time
00:30 <Lucifer_arma> you know, when alchemy becomes chemistry
00:30 <GodTodd> yep
00:30 <Lucifer_arma> it wasn't newton in particular that did it, though, he was a traditional alchemist, but I think he laid groundwork for it
00:30 <GodTodd> and astrology didn't "become" but spawned astronomy somewhat
00:31 <Lucifer_arma> right, it contained astronomy until some folks split off from astrology, as I understand it
00:31 <Lucifer_arma> basically rejecting the superstitious part to make astronomy from astrology
00:31 <GodTodd> right
00:31 <Lucifer_arma> handling the changeover shouldn't be too hard
00:32 <Lucifer_arma> we can just have "new discpline" as something you gain with techs
00:32 <GodTodd> standard "yesterday's superstition is today's science" :)
00:32 <Lucifer_arma> so then it's just a matter of designing the tech tree appropriately
00:32 <GodTodd> right
00:33 <Lucifer_arma> and a discpline constitutes a conversion factor
00:34 <Vanhayes> Lucifer_arma, how far back are you going to start, the standard 4000BC?
00:44 <Lucifer_arma> I was thinking somewheres around there
00:44 <Lucifer_arma> maybe the starting date will be configurable
00:44 <Lucifer_arma> I'm anticipating the games going faster because the turns themselves will pass faster and am hoping we can stick to a scale of 1 turn = 1 year
00:44 <Vanhayes> that would be nice, so you could have a modern war from the start
00:45 <Lucifer_arma> well, for that, the world builder will need to be able to build civilizations too
00:45 <Lucifer_arma> which is a reasonable feature to add, I think
00:45 <Lucifer_arma> first implementation won't have it, obviously.  It won't even have a world builder, heh.
00:45 <Lucifer_arma> probably lay in some code to serve as groundwork for that, and just have it load a file
00:46 <Lucifer_arma> or just define it as a scenario, and then allow some builders, then a scenario is constructed by chaining builders together in sequence
00:46 <Lucifer_arma> where one builder could just load a static map
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01:04 <Lucifer_arma> aha, I just removed the idea of picking the technologies you'll research
01:05 <Lucifer_arma> with the addition of disciplines, I think you should only be able to prioritize disciplines, and the server will assign tech points
01:05 <Lucifer_arma> so no more micromanaging scientists, now you just get to allocate resources
01:18 <Lucifer_arma> I'm thinking we should forget weather simulation and just make disaster generators part of the map format
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01:35 <Lucifer_arma> is it true?  Am I really ready to start coding?
01:35 <Lucifer_arma> Hmmm, maybe I need to work on the protocol first
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04:19 <Lucifer_arma> yay, got some very basic network code written
04:19 <Lucifer_arma> now going home :)
04:19 <Lucifer_arma> oh yeah
04:20 <Lucifer_arma> Your_mom_arma: hey, I set up a wiki for the civ game, and gave it a name.  http://eugenics.davefancella.com/
04:20 <Lucifer_arma> so we should be dumping stuff there and designing the game there.  Lots of parts of game design don't require programming, just implementing the game rules does :)
04:20 -!- Lucifer_arma [n=satan@m198214186130.austincc.edu] has quit ["The revolution called me."]
04:51 <mkzelda> wow, on xzl server you can 180 all day and never use more than 0.7 rubber
04:51 <mkzelda> yet it has 28
04:55 -!- Lucifer_arma [n=satan@adsl-68-93-135-129.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #armagetron
05:05 <mkzelda> tron crashes when i go to the about screen
05:05 <mkzelda> oh nm just until the round ends
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05:29 <Your_mom_arma> well, I managed to write something in python where it asks you to feed a monster cookies till you give it 100 or more
05:38 <Your_mom_arma> hmm, Its also going to have an rts mode Lucifer_arma?
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--- Log closed Thu May 31 06:16:40 2007
--- Log opened Thu May 31 06:16:48 2007
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06:17 <Your_mom_arma> hey wrtlprnft
06:18 <Lucifer_arma> not a specific settler, it's more like you'd say "Put a city here" and your manager will put one there sometime
06:19 <Lucifer_arma> ok, movement per turn is the same as freeciv, you'll just have your units move during your segment
06:19 <Lucifer_arma> the map will be on a cartesian plane, no crazy grid or whatever
06:20 <Lucifer_arma> what we really need to decide is if we want to give length units to the map
06:20 <Lucifer_arma> like, do we want to just say 1 map unit = 1 km ?
06:20 <Lucifer_arma> I don't know, don't know that I care anyway :)
06:20 <Lucifer_arma> but it's really starting to irk me that Lucifer_bed is having so many connection problems with freenode
06:21 <Lucifer_arma> so specify in map units, and think of map units as "pixels" if you have to :)
06:21 <Lucifer_arma> I figure the first maps will be done in inkscape, and we'll have a loader that just loads the svg files directly
06:21 <Lucifer_arma> maybe eventually we'll need to create our own format
06:21 <Your_mom_arma> will units and cities be the same size?
06:22 <Lucifer_arma> but no hexes, no squares, none of that.  We'll use real-valued coordinates
06:22 <Lucifer_arma> hmmm, not exactly, no.
06:22 <Lucifer_arma> I wasn't intending to size them at all, actually
06:22 <Lucifer_arma> zones of control would be computed based on how many movement points the units have left
06:23 <Lucifer_arma> cities aren't sized, so there isn't really a square that marks "this is a city".  There will be an icon on the city center...
06:23 <Lucifer_arma> taking a city will be handled by the manager, because you won't be able to order specific units to take a city
06:23 <Lucifer_arma> the manager will handle taking cities
06:23 <Lucifer_arma> that might be subject to change if it turns out to be unworkable
06:24 <Lucifer_arma> any of it is subject to change if it turns out to be unworkable :)
06:24 <Your_mom_arma> so cities won't gave any graphical representation?
06:24 <Lucifer_arma> they'll have one, we need a button where you can click to open the city dialog
06:24 <Lucifer_arma> if we have a city dialog, we may find we don't need one at all
06:24 <Lucifer_arma> then there will be the drawing of the work area, possibly
06:25 <Lucifer_arma> I think we should trace the work area, so we probably will make it configurable at some point
06:25 <Lucifer_arma> then, I'd like to render city improvements within the work area
06:25 <Lucifer_arma> so you can see on the map what's in the cities.  This is mostly to look pretty, but could be handy to have
06:26 <Lucifer_arma> not units, I'm talking buildings.
06:26 <Lucifer_arma> then there's the fog of war rendering, of course
06:27 <Your_mom_arma> so you click on a city marker(just a flag?) and then in the city dialog you see a city with a nuclear plant, aquaducts etc?
06:27 <Lucifer_arma> no, you see the nuclear plant, aqueducts, etc on the world map directly
06:27 <Your_mom_arma> hmm
06:27 <Lucifer_arma> you saw that acme can zoom in/out, so that's actually reasonable for us to aim for
06:28 <Lucifer_arma> the same widget that draws the map in acme will be used here for the map :)
06:28 <Your_mom_arma> so would cities start off as a group of huts early on, then like a suburb later?
06:28 <Lucifer_arma> that's the idea, yes
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06:29 <Your_mom_arma> does the game end with current techs?
06:30 <Lucifer_arma> I don't want it to, I want to run it into a futuristic cyberpunkish world
06:30 <spidey> i have a strange situation :o
06:30 <spidey> 30kb/s download and 139kb/s upload
06:30 <spidey> lol
06:30 <Lucifer_arma> your dad's dad is screwing your mom's mom?
06:30 <spidey> nah :p
06:30 <Lucifer_arma> I just stuck eugenics in svn, it doesn't do much though
06:30 <Your_mom_arma> hehe
06:30 <spidey> i'm at my other grandmas :o
06:30 <Lucifer_arma> it's at https://svn.davefancella.com/eugenics/trunk/eugenics
06:31 <Lucifer_arma> all it does right now is attempt to login, but fail because I haven't written the login stuff yet
06:31 <Your_mom_arma> server certificate warning
06:31 <Lucifer_arma> just accept it forever.  :)
06:31 <spidey> i'm moving in my aunts, so you guys won't have to put up with me anymore :D
06:31 <Lucifer_arma> I will probably never register a certificate
06:31 <spidey> unless i come over here :>
06:31 <Lucifer_arma> you're moving to your aunts so we won't have to put up with you?  That's a pretty superficial reason to move...
06:32 <spidey> that's not why i'm moving lol
06:32 <Lucifer_arma> well, we'll miss you
06:32 <Lucifer_arma> at least, they will
06:32 <mkzelda> heh
06:32 <spidey> lol
06:32 <Lucifer_arma> you know, these other guys here
06:32 <spidey> woh?
06:32 <spidey> who*
06:32 <spidey> oh, them?
06:34 <Your_mom_arma> luci would streets/aquaducts buildings be drawn in (semi) randomly?
06:34 <Your_mom_arma> ie electricty providing building always left of town center?
06:35 <Lucifer_arma> we can worry about that later, actually
06:35 <Lucifer_arma> unless you want to start it pretty soon, but the code isn't far enough along to worry about it
06:37 <Your_mom_arma> should we discuss an outline of units, or is that about the same level of polishing the bumper of the car before the frames built that the city graphics was
06:39 <Your_mom_arma> Should there be multiple version of settlers? Ie settlers walking->Settlers in a bus?
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06:42 <spidey> this pc really sucks -.-
06:45 <Your_mom_arma> so, anyone know what happened to armabot?
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06:46 <Lucifer_arma> multiple levels of settlers is fine, but we really need to work on the frame stuff :)
06:46 <Lucifer_arma> we have enough stuff to code the basic game loop and get cities working, if the first city is hardcoded
06:47 <Lucifer_arma> also, we can start defining file formats for the tech tree, and some other things that have slipped my tired mind
06:48 <Your_mom_arma> multiple tech trees?
06:48 <Lucifer_arma> tech tree needs to be an xml file, and I suspect we're going to want to use xml for enough files to justify using it as a default
06:48 <Your_mom_arma> pretty much
06:48 <Lucifer_arma> I'm not sure how the tech tree will look, to be honest.
06:48 <Lucifer_arma> there should be enough definition to how techs will work to start defining the tech tree
06:49 <Lucifer_arma> we also need to work out exactly how resources will work
06:49 <Lucifer_arma> there's a link to create that page, but it hasn't been created yet
06:49 <Lucifer_arma> I was thinking an xml file to describe terrain including what resources can be worked in each terrain type
06:50 <Lucifer_arma> so, resources and terrain are interdependent.  Tech disciplines and resources are interdependent, and the tech tree depends on tech disciplines
06:50 <Lucifer_arma> but of those four files, we've only talked about two (which are documented somewhat already)
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06:50 <Lucifer_arma> Lucifer_bed is starting to annoy me
06:51 <Your_mom_arma> gold silver coal oil lumber, any other resources?
06:51 <Lucifer_arma> my current coding plan is to get logins working and work out some way to translate game commands into stuff that can be sent over the network
06:52 <Lucifer_arma> uranium, iron
06:52 <Lucifer_arma> food.
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06:53 <Lucifer_arma> these should be defined in a file, we need to work out the mechanism that links them to terrain and city workers
06:53 <Your_mom_arma> hmm, cities(units) shoulld be able to create food resources
06:53 <Lucifer_arma> the terrain file should link terrain types to objects created in inkscape :)
06:53 <Lucifer_arma> oh yeah, improvements
06:54 <Lucifer_arma> roads and irrigation and stuff.  There's another file to work out, and a mechanism to put together
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06:54 <Your_mom_arma> so would there be wild food resources?
06:54 <Lucifer_arma> when we're talking about resources, we're not talking about what freeciv has for resource squares
06:54 <Lucifer_arma> we're talking about what a basic, unmodified terrain type is capable of producing
06:54 <Lucifer_arma> possibly with overlays that can only be seen when you have special units that can see them
06:55 <Lucifer_arma> so to mine uranium, you first have to develop the technology to build the unit that can find uranium, for example
06:55 <Lucifer_arma> surveyors, that's what they are.  Different levels of surveyors
06:55 <Lucifer_arma> so we could say that all hills have coal if we'd like, but you can't work the coal until you can build the surveyor that finds coal
06:56 <Lucifer_arma> I was thinking we'd have that as overlays on the map, you'd just create another path in inkscape that says "here be whales!"
06:57 <Lucifer_arma> anyway, my immediate coding plan is to get a certain minimum level of network support and then build the client gui to where it can chat
06:57 <Lucifer_arma> and multiple clients can chat on the same server
06:58 <Lucifer_arma> then start in on the game loop that's described on the wiki
06:58 <Lucifer_arma> I'm almost there, just have to get the login working and create teh chat command and I can start on the client gui :)
06:59 <Your_mom_arma> nice
07:00 <Lucifer_arma> which I'd have done if my wife would leave me alone
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07:14 <MrBougo> hemllo :)))
07:14 <MrBougo> wrtlprnft: where is armabot gone? :(
07:16 <Your_mom_arma> Lucifer_arma:  http://eugenics.davefancella.com/index.php/Technology_Tree
07:25 <Lucifer_arma> http://eugenics.davefancella.com/index.php/Technology
07:25 <Lucifer_arma> :)
07:26 <Lucifer_arma> yay, chatting with the server works
07:26 <Lucifer_arma> now, how to get the chat messages to send to all connected clients?  :/
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07:29 <Lucifer_arma> I worked out a basic protocol I should probably go document, so I can keep track of messages
07:32 <Your_mom_arma> so the techs need to be grouped into disciplines; the equvalent to science points is disciple points, which are created by(undocumented)
07:33 <Your_mom_arma> would techs need 25 chemistry points and 15 electronic points?
07:35 <Your_mom_arma> would having two levels of techin an xml mess up parsing like I imagine it would?(tech allows tech)
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07:36 <mkzelda> you should make eugenics output "Playcontinuous: Cycle motor effect" 1000's of times
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07:41 <Lucifer_arma> that would rule
07:41 <Lucifer_arma> no it wouldn't mess it up at all, that's what xml is for
07:42 <Lucifer_arma> the tech tree should be directly represented in xml, so if you loaded it up into a program that showed the xml document tree, you should see the tech tree exactly as you have envisioned it
07:42 <Lucifer_arma> we're not doing validating parsers yet, if at all, so don't worry about dtd's like phil does :)
07:43 <Lucifer_arma> problems come in when you need several techs to get one tech, like civ does
07:43 <Your_mom_arma> could you explain how discipline points are going to work a bit?
07:43 <Lucifer_arma> so you won't get the crosses thataway
07:44 <Lucifer_arma> the basic idea is that disciplines are just conversions
07:44 <Lucifer_arma> they convert resources into tech points, but the tech points are classified by discipline
07:44 <Your_mom_arma> so the techs should only allow 1 tech?
07:44 <Lucifer_arma> I'm not sure, that's what you're trying to figure out :)
07:45 <Lucifer_arma> the xml file should be as expressive as possible, and as flexible as possible.  Don't worry about coding from it, we'll tweak it later if we have to to make it easier to manage in code
07:45 <Your_mom_arma> techs can allow more then 1 techs after researched?
07:45 <Lucifer_arma> but they don't convert actual worked resources, because those are used for building shit and trade and stuff
07:45 <Lucifer_arma> yes, they can
07:45 <Lucifer_arma> that's one of freeciv's limitations we don't need or want
07:46 <Lucifer_arma> probably you want to organize the tech tree into several smaller trees and then cross-reference amongst the trees
07:46 <Lucifer_arma> so make like a military tech tree, an aggie tech tree, a physics tech tree, a chemistry tech tree, an engineering tech tree, etc.
07:47 <Lucifer_arma> then the military tech tree might have <requires "nuclear physics" /> in there somewhere
07:47 <Lucifer_arma> so you'd need nuclear physics from the physics tech tree as well as everything above it
07:47 <Your_mom_arma> so have requires instead of allows, at least tech wise
07:47 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, that's probably better
07:48 <Lucifer_arma> we can figure out what a tech allows with code by just checking what it connects to
07:48 <Lucifer_arma> an alternate is to just make it a linear list like freeciv has, and just have a series of <requires> lines for each tech
07:48 <Lucifer_arma> the tree can still be built from that just fine
07:48 <Your_mom_arma> should the different trees be in different files ie military, physics 
07:48 <Lucifer_arma> since it's xml, it should be as readable s possible for people, too
07:49 <Lucifer_arma> let's keep it in one file for now, we might create an include directive later if we need more organization
07:49 <Lucifer_arma> the important things are that we won't limit the maximum number of techs (for no good reason), and we won't limit the tree itself with stupid shit like a tech can only depend on two other techs and that's it
07:49 <Lucifer_arma> actually, the freeciv tech file is the same way.  It has requires instead of allows, and allows is figured out by the program
07:50 <Lucifer_arma> we just won't have their limitations is all
08:03 <Your_mom_arma> hmm
08:04 <Your_mom_arma> if its separated into engineering military and physics where would flight go?
08:13 <Lucifer_arma> not sure
08:14 <Lucifer_arma> could be engineering, probably should be
08:14 <Lucifer_arma> maybe have separate fighter/bomber techs that are military and depend on flight?
08:14 <Lucifer_arma> I think a more detailed tech tree with cheaper techs is better than a really generic tech tree with expensive techs
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09:00 <Lucifer_arma> oh hell, I'm too sleepy to start the client
09:00 <Lucifer_arma> I'll start it tomorrow
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16:50 <epsy> hi
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19:30 -!- MrBougo [i=MrBougo@88.36-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #armagetron
19:31 <MrBougo> helo
19:31 -!- deja_vu [n=deja_vu@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-101.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #armagetron
19:35 <epsy> hay MrBougo 
19:36 <epsy> LuciEatsPeople: ping
19:38 <luke-jr_work> O.o
19:40 <MrBougo> hehe epsy
19:40 <epsy> Ö.ø
19:40 <epsy> #ping
19:40 <epsy> !ping
19:40 <BotSub> pong
19:40 <MrBougo> epsy: pong
19:41 <MrBougo> whats botsub
19:41 <epsy> arf xD
19:41 <MrBougo> !help
19:41 <BotSub> MrBougo: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
19:41 <MrBougo> !list alias
19:41 <BotSub> MrBougo: add, c, calc, lock, luke, m, night, q, remove, and unlock
19:41 -!- lamar [n=d1227018@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has quit ["CGI:IRC (EOF)"]
19:41 <MrBougo> :DDD
19:41 <MrBougo> !luke
19:41 <BotSub> blah blah jesus blah blah i'm great or smth blah blah RTFM blah blah stfu baka noob blah blah
19:41 <MrBougo> wtf :D
19:41 <epsy> #night
19:41 <epsy> !fortune
19:41 <BotSub> epsy: Error: "fortune" is not a valid command.
19:41 <epsy> !night
19:41 <BotSub> Goodnight epsy :(
20:08 <MrBougo> http://www.explosm.net/comics/913/
20:08 <MrBougo> oh my f**** god
20:08 <MrBougo> Amazing Comic of the Week
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20:45 <epsy> hmm
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21:04 <vinavil> actually Version is in Debian unstable
21:04 <luke-jr_work> ...
21:04 <vinavil> called armagetronad
21:05 <luke-jr_work> ok
21:05 <vinavil> well, you asked me about package arma for debian/ubuntu
21:05 <vinavil> i just discovered they alredy have someone who will do it
21:06 <luke-jr_work> o
21:06 <luke-jr_work> so why haven't they contacted us?
21:07 <vinavil> dunno, i contacted andreas bombe (found his e-mail somewhere in arma svn or so) to get some info about armagetronad debain package and he answered me that
21:07 <vinavil> wait i paste
21:08 <vinavil> On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 06:02:46PM +0200, rain wrote:
21:08 <vinavil> >We have a lot of  
21:08 <vinavil> > ubuntu/debian users interested to it. Actually armagetron ( is  
21:08 <vinavil> > the last AA package aveable from debian.org, while the lastest version of  
21:08 <vinavil> > AA is and we are working for 0.3.
21:08 <vinavil>  
21:08 <vinavil> I wasn't working properly on the package so it was indeed quite behind
21:08 <vinavil> for a long time.
21:08 <vinavil>  
21:08 <vinavil> Christine Spang <christine@debian.org> has taken over packaging of
21:08 <vinavil> Armagetron Advanced, but not in time to get a current version into the
21:08 <vinavil> current Debian release.  Version is in Debian unstable,
21:08 <vinavil> however (in case you haven't found it, the package is now named
21:08 <vinavil> armagetronad).  In any case, you should contact her about packaging
21:08 <vinavil> issues.
21:08 <vinavil>  
21:08 <vinavil> -- 
21:08 <vinavil> Andreas Bombe
21:10 <Lucifer_arma> is she hot?
21:10 <vinavil> probably
21:10 <vinavil> ...
21:10 <Lucifer_arma> send her an email and ask for a picture
21:11 <luke-jr_work> who wants to email Christine and ask her to upload pkgs to our site? :p
21:11 <vinavil> so luci, just started my work and suddenly finished, fortunately and unfortunately
21:12 <Lucifer_arma> funny, that paste didn't say "0.3.0 is packaged"  :)
21:12 <vinavil> since andreas gave the contact to me, i'll contact her for more info
21:12 <vinavil> :)
21:13 <vinavil> why should they add an unstable version?
21:13 <luke-jr_work> they don't have an unstable repo?
21:13 <Lucifer_arma> to help us test?
21:13 <Lucifer_arma> same way we help them test their distribution?
21:14 <vinavil> relax, im not a debian developer :D
21:14 <vinavil> i'll report all to her
21:14  * luke-jr_work does note that 0.3 isn't beta/RC
21:15 <luke-jr_work> so it's not meant for testing so much as for people who want bleeding edge stuff
21:17  * vinavil starts thinking developing is a disease
21:18 <Lucifer_arma> yep
21:21 <Lucifer_arma> it's more like an infectious addiction, I think
21:21 <luke-jr_work> O.o
21:22 <vinavil> yes, probably
21:23 <Lucifer_arma> hmmm, any preferences on layout of the client?
21:24 <Lucifer_arma> I don't like freeciv's layout, but I don't know how I'd improve it
21:25 <mkzelda> I'll say that i didnt discover the individual city's ability to research, etc for a long time of playing heh
21:26 <Lucifer_arma> I'm just going to copy freeciv for now, I think.  It's not that hard to change it around later
21:26 <Lucifer_arma> with obvious improvements, like just opening all the report tabs at once
21:26 <mkzelda> i like sidebar navs
21:26 <Lucifer_arma> no sense in forcing the player to do it every game
21:27 <Lucifer_arma> navs?
21:27 <mkzelda> navigation
21:27 <mkzelda> buttons on a sidebar
21:27 <Lucifer_arma> for moving individual units?
21:27 <mkzelda> that let you open units, cities, or research
21:27 <mkzelda> 2 different bars, one static, one changes relating to what you've clicked on
21:28 <Lucifer_arma> ah
21:28 <Lucifer_arma> I don't like those :(
21:28 <Lucifer_arma> I like interactive reports on a tabbed widget
21:28 <mkzelda> yea, im saying those buttons open a tabbed widget
21:29 <mkzelda> so, a top bar that lists units, cities, etc.. and if u click on units the the top bar, then the sidebar lists your different grouped units, and if u click ont hat you get your dialog window
21:29 <Lucifer_arma> the basic layout I'm trying to make is to put the map in the upper-right, a dashboard of sorts to its left, and the console at the bottom
21:30  * epsy loves polling himself
21:30 <Lucifer_arma> ah.  I was thinking of grouping ui features by department, so you'd go to department of war to deal with military units and logistics, department of interior for city management, etc.
21:30 <Lucifer_arma> epsy: please, keep it behind closed doors
21:30 <epsy> which doors are these ?
21:30 <Lucifer_arma> doors where we don't see you?
21:31 -!- zmanuel [n=manuel@p50871AB3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #armagetron
21:31 <epsy> i love seeing how stupid they are to trust me saying i'm a noob with a buggy name, etc
21:31 <epsy> and they got to kick me, lol
21:31 <Lucifer_arma> hmmm, we just have so many nice widgets available to choose from
21:31 <Lucifer_arma> the dashboard could be a dockwidget, for example
21:32 <Lucifer_arma> which you can pull off and have as a separate window
21:32 <epsy> i regularly make that test
21:32 <Lucifer_arma> oh, you polled yourself in arma, I thought you meant you ctcp'd yourself here
21:32 <mkzelda> i tried like hell to get kicked from xzl last night
21:33 <epsy> it works good on ctwf
21:33 <epsy> on café it doesn't
21:33 <epsy> see where are the noobs ^^
21:34 <luke-jr_work> Lucifer_arma: allow abstract controls and micromanaging? :)
21:34 <luke-jr_work> Lucifer_arma: eg, glob2 style + civ style
21:34 <vinavil> ok, i sent her an email about 0.2.8 situation and 0.3 add request
21:34 <Lucifer_arma> I reject every poll someone brings against themself
21:35 <Lucifer_arma> unless they're a smeghead, in which case I accept it in the hopes they'll get kicked, because if it's rejected, they'll have poll protection for a time
21:35 <Lucifer_arma> otherwise, if you bring a poll yourself, I figure you could just shift-escape
21:35 <epsy> lol, the ban's stuck on 2 minutes now 
21:35 <epsy> and when you should leave
21:35 <epsy> but you don't want to leave
21:35 <mkzelda> on xzl they have their rules... no cussing, offensive remarks, camping, robots or spam
21:36 <epsy> what can you do instead of polling yourself
21:36 <mkzelda> so i go in 'aw fuck, i cant cuss how nazi, watch me camp while doing the robot and visit www.spam.com'
21:36 <epsy> and a fucking long message on every round
21:36 <mkzelda> and then i camp
21:37  * epsy is a real spammer on the grid
21:37 <mkzelda> couldnt get kicked
21:37 <epsy> no, not thru normal chat
21:37 <mkzelda> kept making fun of the server
21:37 <epsy> shufflespam xD
21:37 <mkzelda> 180 all day and only use 0.7rubber
21:37 <mkzelda> but it has 28
21:37 <mkzelda> whats the point of that
21:38 <epsy> yeah i wonder why they all do 180°'s
21:38 <epsy> as it uses nearly nothing of rubber and doesn't get you nearer of the wall
21:39 <epsy> well, this stuck ban seems to tell me to code some
21:39  * epsy agrees to it
21:40 <epsy> http://epsy.is-a-geek.org:4539/~epsy/nick
21:40 <epsy> that's how i chose my nicks ^^
21:42 <epsy> !monologue
21:42 <BotSub> epsy: Error: "monologue" is not a valid command.
21:45 <Lucifer_arma> you guys are punks
21:51 <epsy> why not trying to see how they simply highlights « approve kick »
21:52 <epsy> * ?
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22:25 -!- epsy [n=epsy@mar75-4-82-227-65-72.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 gfduxitgerhyuiovfg<hqiùHMhAU_IGHIUDRLGHUGYgyhugbysgfæÊ€æÊ»þýýûÎÃ]
22:30 <Lucifer_arma> heh, does freeciv have a file menu?
22:46 <luke-jr_work> doubt it
23:14 -!- deja_vu [n=deja_vu@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-101.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit ["auch wech"]
23:39 <vinavil> CYCLE_SYNC_INTERVAL_ENEMY: Time in seconds between server-client updates of enemy cycles
23:39 <vinavil> is it meant for "enemy cycles" any other cycle not yours?
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23:54 -!- vinavil [n=rain@85-18-66-26.ip.fastwebnet.it] has left #armagetron []

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