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Log from 2007-05-30:
--- Day changed Wed May 30 2007
00:06 <Lucifer_arma> man, I can't believe I wrote 1000 lines of code for the ledger and it didn't work
00:07 -!- luke-jr_work [n=luke-jr@adsl-76-194-177-181.dsl.ksc2mo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
00:12 <GodTodd> heh...i'm currently trying to merge my nodewalker routine into a listview method i found
00:12 <GodTodd> hasn't worked too well so far :/
00:22 -!- akira_ [n=chatzill@p54b4f156.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #armagetron
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00:35 <Lucifer_arma> models
00:36 <Lucifer_arma> man, use a model and you can build the tree directly from the dom
00:36 <GodTodd> ?
00:36 <GodTodd> i'll have to look that up in a bit
00:37 <Lucifer_arma> my problem is having to change the model for a previous database style to a new database style, where the api for the database was hacked together
00:37 <Lucifer_arma> a combination of "this is good design" and "this is bad design, but makes it work and I'll fix it later"
00:37 <Lucifer_arma> well, later is here, and I'm fixing it now
00:38 <Lucifer_arma> if I hadn't been so noncommittal with the way split transactions were handled before, it would be a lot easier now
00:38 <GodTodd> heh
00:38 <Lucifer_arma> instead, I'm having to commit now, not knowing if I'm committing to the right model, but doing it anyway because I don't want be screwed by being noncommittal (which is what I have now)
00:39 <Lucifer_arma> the next class should be starting soon, so I'm expecting the instructor to walk in any minute to talk over her labs
00:41  * GodTodd has school again starting tomorrow :/
00:41 <Lucifer_arma> school started today here, heh
00:42 <GodTodd> M-R 1pm to 5:10pm i have calc I (this week notwithstanding when it's only W-R) 
00:42 -!- deja_vu [n=deja_vu@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-101.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit ["leaving"]
00:42 <Lucifer_arma> what day is R?
00:42 <GodTodd> thursday
00:43 <GodTodd> MTWRFSU
00:43 <Lucifer_arma> heh
00:43 <Lucifer_arma> here it's MTWUFSSun
00:43 <Lucifer_arma> wit,t hat's not right
00:43 <Lucifer_arma> it's MTWHFSU
00:43 <GodTodd> heh
00:44 <GodTodd> you guys are weird :P
00:44 <Lucifer_arma> most of the catalog does T/Th anyway
00:44 <ghableska> 5 more days -_-
00:44 <ghableska> actually 4 
00:44 <ghableska> hmm
00:49 <Lucifer_arma> you start school on saturday?
00:49 -!- luke-jr_work [n=luke-jr@adsl-76-194-177-181.dsl.ksc2mo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
00:51 <GodTodd> i think he's *ending* school
00:52 <Lucifer_arma> oh yeah, heh
00:52 <Lucifer_arma> damn kid
00:52 <GodTodd> yep
00:53 <Lucifer_arma> 4 lab groups so far :/
00:55 <Lucifer_arma> 5 :(
00:58 <Lucifer_arma> 5 1/2 week general physics
00:58 <Lucifer_arma> I almost feel sorry for the kids
00:59 <Lucifer_arma> ok, so the instructor won't be in here to talk to me until lab time
01:01 <Lucifer_arma> no sooner did I say that then she came in to chat, haha
01:01 <Lucifer_arma> back to coding
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01:07 <ghableska> damn old people :p
01:10 <Vanhayes> 8 days here, then exams
01:10 <Vanhayes> then its all over, hopefully
01:13 <ghableska> I have my orchestra final tomorrow, aka party
01:13 <ghableska> :D
01:20 <duudii> hey
01:21 <P4> #tyskie
01:21 <P4> #list
01:21 <P4> !list
01:21 <BotSub> P4: Admin, Alias, AutoMode, Channel, ChannelLogger, ChannelStats, Config, Dict, Geekquote, Herald, Insult, Later, Math, Misc, NickCapture, Nickometer, Owner, Plugin, Praise, Quote, RSS, Seen, Services, String, Time, Topic, User, Utilities, and Weather
01:21 <P4> yea :D
01:21 <Lucifer_arma> freeciv?  heh
01:21 <P4> !help nickcapture
01:21 <BotSub> P4: Error: There is no command "nickcapture".
01:21 <P4> !help NickCapture
01:21 <BotSub> P4: Error: There is no command "nickcapture".
01:22 <P4> !list NickCapture
01:22 <BotSub> P4: That plugin exists, but has no commands.  This probably means that it has some configuration variables that can be changed in order to modify its behavior.  Try "config list supybot.plugins.NickCapture" to see what configuration variables it has.
01:22 <Lucifer_arma> !list nickcapture
01:22 <BotSub> Lucifer_arma: That plugin exists, but has no commands.  This probably means that it has some configuration variables that can be changed in order to modify its behavior.  Try "config list supybot.plugins.NickCapture" to see what configuration variables it has.
01:22 <P4> Lucifer_arma: is it your bot?
01:22 <Lucifer_arma> no
01:22 <P4> it's hosted by luke? :]
01:22 <Lucifer_arma> no
01:22 <Lucifer_arma> !praise luke-jr_ (hi there!) 
01:22  * BotSub blesses luke-jr_ (hi there!) with a cookie for outstanding achievement in being cool.
01:22 <Lucifer_arma> eek!
01:22  * Lucifer_arma hits BotSub
01:23 <Lucifer_arma> geology people just left, so now I have the prep room to myself again, yay!
01:23 <Lucifer_arma> they're nice people, just hard to rewrite the ledger while they're yacking
01:23 <P4> i got to get some beer
01:23 <P4> brb in 15 minutes
01:23 <P4> stay tuned ;)
01:23 <P4> i mean i hope we can talk in 15 mins :}
01:25 <Lucifer_arma> man, I'm fuckin' hungry
01:36 <P4> bin appetite :)
01:36 <P4> bon *
01:38 <P4> oh it's GodTodd bot :D
01:40 -!- vinavil [n=rain@85-18-66-26.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #armagetron
01:40 <vinavil> how do i get a complete list of arma commands?
01:41 <_Sticky_> wiki
01:42 <vinavil> i mean a complete one
01:49 <luke-jr_> wiki
01:49 -!- Arma358 [n=4792a370@h10487.serverkompetenz.net] has joined #armagetron
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01:51 <vinavil> it isn't complete
01:52 <ghableska> !weather 50266
01:52 <BotSub> ghableska: The current temperature in West Des Moines, Iowa is 74.8°F (6:50 PM CDT on May 29, 2007). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 65%. Dew Point: 62.6°F. Pressure: 28.97 in 980.9 hPa (Falling).  Flood Watch in effect from Wednesday afternoon through late Wednesday night...
01:52 <ghableska> !g blah
01:52 <BotSub> ghableska: Error: "g" is not a valid command.
01:52 <ghableska> aw
01:54 <vinavil> where did armabot go?
01:55 <vinavil> !night
01:55 <BotSub> vinavil: Error: "night" is not a valid command.
01:55 <vinavil> T_T
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01:59 <Lucifer_arma> !weather 78717
01:59 <BotSub> Lucifer_arma: The current temperature in Brushy Creek, Round Rock, Texas is 82.9°F (7:01 PM CDT on May 29, 2007). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 63%. Dew Point: 69.8°F. Pressure: 29.42 in 996.2 hPa (Steady). 
02:03 <GodTodd> !night
02:03 <BotSub> Goodnight GodTodd :(
02:03 <GodTodd> there we go
02:04 -!- Your_mom_arma [n=Your_mom@pool-70-106-108-201.pskn.east.verizon.net] has joined #armagetron
02:08 <P4> luigi
02:08 <P4> ...
02:09 <GodTodd> mario
02:09 <GodTodd> ...
02:12 <Your_mom_arma> wario
02:12 <Your_mom_arma> ...
02:14 <Vanhayes> Luigi
02:14 <Vanhayes> Lucifer_arma, Did you say you wanted to play freeciv?
02:14 <Your_mom_arma> #ping
02:14 <Your_mom_arma> BotSub: ping
02:14 <Vanhayes> !ping
02:14 <BotSub> pong
02:14 <BotSub> pong
02:14 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, but it was mostly a joke
02:15 <Lucifer_arma> the next lab starts in about 40 minutes, and I have to work it
02:15 <Lucifer_arma> since it's the first day of school, I have no idea how active in the lab I'll need to be, and it's a full house
02:15 <GodTodd> work it, big boy :)
02:15 <ghableska> hey, anyone know much about the french revolution? :p
02:16 <Vanhayes> king louis the 16th wasnt it?
02:16 <Vanhayes> unless I just pulled a random name 
02:16 <ghableska> no, you're correct
02:16 <Lucifer_arma> which one?
02:16 <Lucifer_arma> heh
02:16 <Your_mom_arma> I wonder how the French could lose a war with itself 
02:17 <Lucifer_arma> they didn't
02:17 <Lucifer_arma> they exported the French Revolution to all of europe
02:17 <Vanhayes> well along those lines, so did the US
02:17 <Lucifer_arma> and Napolean rose up and went around tryin to conquer europe
02:17 <Lucifer_arma> so england and Russia and Germany and Austria all went and forced France to take a monarchy, iirc
02:18 <ghableska> hm
02:18 <Lucifer_arma> I think the french revolution, insofar as the overthrow of the monarchy and establishment of the republic, was over when napolean took power
02:18 <ghableska> we only managed to get up to Napoleon
02:18 <ghableska> I was hoping for WWI
02:18 <Lucifer_arma> but it has a causal relationship to the Napoleonic wars
02:18 <Vanhayes> modern history?
02:18 <ghableska> Vanhayes: the class is Western Civilization
02:19 <ghableska> we started out with cavemen, heh
02:21 <GodTodd> lies!
02:21 <Lucifer_arma> did you cover american history, too?
02:21 <ghableska> actually, no
02:22 <ghableska> mentioned in passing, but not really
02:22 <ghableska> that's next year :)
02:22 <Lucifer_arma> so they said Western Civilization, but they meant European Civilization?
02:22 <ghableska> well, we started out in Africa
02:22 <Your_mom_arma> Lucifer_arma: [ot] if we can't play freeciv(if your still boycotting it), when can we expect to try a beta of your freeciv alternative :) ?
02:22 <Lucifer_arma> long time away, heh
02:22 <Lucifer_arma> right now, I just finished eating
02:23  * ghableska goes back to studying
02:23 <Lucifer_arma> some of it depends on if anybody wants to help, and while I'd normally see if GodTodd (hi there!)  was interested, I somehow don't think he'll have time to hit it this summer
02:23 <Lucifer_arma> ghableska: did you have a question, or were you just curious if anybody here knew about the french revolution?
02:23 <ghableska> curious ;)
02:25 <Lucifer_arma> Your_mom_arma: I can play freeciv more now than before, actually, but the server has to be somewhere else, and I need to be able to take random breaks
02:25 <Lucifer_arma> then I can play at work
02:25 <Lucifer_arma> assuming they didn't block the port, of course
02:25 <Lucifer_arma> anyway, I'm a grab a smoke, then work on this checkbook program some more
02:25 <Your_mom_arma> Lucifer_arma: how long would it take for someone like myself to learn python and be capable of doing things with it besides printing 'hello world', or propting for name and saying 'name is my hero'
02:25 <Lucifer_arma> I need to get it useable, then I'll be dividing my work between acme and the civ game
02:26 <Lucifer_arma> Your_mom_arma: I wish I had an answer to that, I really do
02:26 <Lucifer_arma> if you work through a tutorial that includes keyboard input, file reading/writing, and then work through a PyQt4 tutorial, you can probably help at that point
02:27 <Lucifer_arma> but you'll need a lot of handholding, which I'm more than happy to do
02:28 <Lucifer_arma> http://docs.python.org/tut/  <--- this tutorial is the best python tutorial out there, short of buying a book, afaik
02:29 <Lucifer_arma> of course, I don't read python tutorials unless I'm looking for code snippets
02:40  * GodTodd would possibly be able to help...but couldn't promise anything
02:45 <P4> GodTodd: can you send your bot to the #crazy-tronners? :}
02:46 <P4> Lucifer_arma: greate there's polish translation under http://www.python.org.pl/tut/tut.html :}
02:47 <Lucifer_arma> well, if enough people appeared to work on the engine, I could help design the engine and focus my coding on the gui
02:47 <P4> oh
02:47 <Lucifer_arma> I'm assuming that I'm the only one around here that knows how to build a gui with python right now, but anyone who already knows how to code can learn that too pretty easily
02:47 <P4> isn't python more like shell language than like gui based?
02:47 <P4> ;)
02:47 <Lucifer_arma> P4: it's a programming language like any other
02:48 <Lucifer_arma> hard to say it's not gui based since it comes bundled with a gui api
02:48 <P4> actually it's interpreted languaged, so it's not like others (compiled one) :}
02:48 <P4> i hope i can create auto-adsl-reconnect script in pyton easly :}
02:49 <P4> (in win32) :}
02:52 <P4> Lucifer_arma: isn't it TK responsible for GUI in python? ^^
02:54 <Lucifer_arma> it's tk that ships with it
02:54 <Lucifer_arma> doesn't mean you have to use it, though
02:54 <Lucifer_arma> P4: actually, it's a language like any other
02:54 <Lucifer_arma> there is a compile step, it's just hidden, and it doesn't compile to native code unless you use the psyco module
02:55 <Lucifer_arma> just like any other....
02:55 <P4> ok ok:}
02:55 <Lucifer_arma> the only interpreted language I know of that doesn't byte-compile is shell scripting
02:55 <P4> do you use other thank TK guis? 
02:55 <Lucifer_arma> no, I don't use TK at all for anythin
02:55 <Lucifer_arma> wait, yes, I use other than tk guis )
02:55 <Lucifer_arma> :)
02:55 <Lucifer_arma> PyQt
02:56 <P4> oh righjt
02:56 <Lucifer_arma> it's faster, and it uses native widgets on each platform (mac os x being a problem child in that regard)
02:56 <P4> you use QT :}
02:57 -!- kidd [n=kidd@232.Red-88-24-246.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
02:57 <P4> it's 3am, time to sleep :}
02:57 <P4> cya guys later :}
03:27 <Lucifer_arma> Qt.  The t is small, like in Xt.  (Which apparently Qt is a pun on)
03:28 <ghableska> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6702267.stm
03:28 <ghableska> crazy Texans
03:35 <DrJoeTron> why is SA showing up on joystiq
03:41 <Your_mom_arma> ?
03:49 <DrJoeTron> the mario cake
03:49 <DrJoeTron> oh good they linked to live journal instead
03:50 <Lucifer_arma> man
03:50 <Lucifer_arma> this little change amounts to a rewrite
03:50 <DrJoeTron> well not good 
03:50 <Lucifer_arma> and my mouse is running out of batteries
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04:57 -!- Your_mom_arma [n=Your_mom@pool-70-106-108-201.pskn.east.verizon.net] has quit ["cya"]
05:02 -!- Lucifer_arma [n=satan@adsl-68-93-135-129.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #armagetron
05:20 <luke-jr_> P4: QT is a video player, video muxing format, or gas station
05:24 <luke-jr_> (QuickTime, QuickTime, and QuikTrip)
05:25 <luke-jr_> Lucifer_arma: btw, have i mentioned that I'm working on a home automation toolkit using Python (also PHP and JavaScript/AJAX)
06:18 <DrJoeTron> hey
06:19 <DrJoeTron> how much do disc brakes for bicycles go for nowadays?
06:45 <luke-jr_> people still use bicycles?
06:50 <GodTodd> very much so
06:52 <Lucifer_arma> luke doesn't like bicycles, he prefers heterocycles
06:52 <luke-jr_> haha
06:52 <Lucifer_arma> one of my new coworkers is a married woman, with a wife
06:52 <DrJoeTron> GHASP
06:52 <DrJoeTron> damn
06:53 <Lucifer_arma> someone call the governor!  THere's sex going on without reproduction!
06:53 <Lucifer_arma> it's an assault on my family!  HOly shit!
06:53 <DrJoeTron> its going to cost like 150 bucks for disc brakes
06:53 <DrJoeTron> not to mention buying a new fork with disc brake mounts :/
06:53 <DrJoeTron> fuck it
06:53 <GodTodd> might as well get a new bike :P
06:53 <DrJoeTron> i'll just replace the brake lines and the brake pads
06:54 <DrJoeTron> nah my bike is still fairly new
06:54 <DrJoeTron> and its in somewhat decient shape
06:54 <DrJoeTron> it just needs to be tuned up
06:54 <GodTodd> decent shape...unless you wanna stop
06:54 <GodTodd> :)
06:55 <DrJoeTron> the brake pads are 6 years old and warn :/
06:55 <DrJoeTron> but its a good bike it is : I
06:55 <GodTodd> sure sure
06:57 <Lucifer_arma> why do you want disc brakes on a bicycle anyway?
06:57 <Lucifer_arma> does it have an electric motor on it?
06:57 -!- akira_ [n=chatzill@p54b4ed5f.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #armagetron
06:58 <GodTodd> wow...tomorrow starts 10 weeks where i try to shove in two calculus classes :/
06:58 <akira_> http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=6204903272262158881
06:58 <akira_> :D
06:58 <Lucifer_arma> is it in german?
06:58 <akira_> no
06:58 <akira_> english
06:59 <akira_> funny stuff :
06:59 <Lucifer_arma> give a hint?  I have to take out my headphones to watch it...
06:59 <akira_> but long
06:59 <akira_> one guy solves super mario hard level with hialrious comments
06:59 <akira_> hilarious
07:00 <GodTodd> so...basically it's nothing we didn't say/hear ourselves 15-20 years ago when the game was new
07:00 <GodTodd> :)
07:01 <akira_> well i think its some usermade lvl :)
07:01 <akira_> its exceptionally hard ;) but basically you are right
07:02  * GodTodd unfortunately didn't have his interest piqued enough to click the link.
07:02 <akira_> well its gets boring after 10 mins wnyways
07:02 <akira_> ;)
07:03 <GodTodd> yeah...i seem to remember the jokes getting old pretty quick in person too 
07:04 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, me neither, not if I have to take out headphones, sorry
07:04 <GodTodd> !weather 75023
07:04 <BotSub> GodTodd: The current temperature in Near Custer and Parker, Plano, Texas is 70.9°F (12:06 AM CDT on May 30, 2007). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 81%. Dew Point: 64.4°F. Pressure: 29.21 in 989.1 hPa (Falling). 
07:04 <GodTodd> brrr
07:04 <Lucifer_arma> !weather 78717
07:04 <BotSub> Lucifer_arma: The current temperature in Brushy Creek, Round Rock, Texas is 75.0°F (12:06 AM CDT on May 30, 2007). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 80%. Dew Point: 68.0°F. Pressure: 29.48 in 998.2 hPa (Steady). 
07:05 <Lucifer_arma> man, it's freaking cold outside!
07:05 <GodTodd> it is
07:05 <GodTodd> i think it's supposed to get toward 90 by the weekend tho
07:08 <DrJoeTron> akira_ haha i saw this
07:09 <akira_> well i am just seeing it the first time :D
07:09 <DrJoeTron> its pretty funny :
07:10 <akira_> btw some concept guy is constantly harrasing me on shrunk :)
07:10 <DrJoeTron> for what :)
07:10 <akira_> for playing boring, ruining the fun being noobish and whatnot
07:10 <DrJoeTron> well yeah
07:11 <DrJoeTron> armagetron is serious business
07:11 <akira_> lol
07:12 <akira_> the best is
07:12 <akira_> when i got accused for playing for the win
07:12 <akira_> i couldnt hold it after that line :)
07:12 <akira_> was*
07:14 <DrJoeTron> haha
07:14 <Lucifer_arma> they said "You're just trying to win!"?
07:14 <Lucifer_arma> ok, this civ game needs plagues
07:15 <Lucifer_arma> serious outbreaks that infect many cities
07:15 <akira_> civ 4?
07:15 <akira_> or freeciv
07:15 <Lucifer_arma> no, the one I want to write
07:15 <akira_> o
07:15 <Lucifer_arma> if you don't send enough workers/engineers with your army, your army should have to deal with dysentery
07:16 <Lucifer_arma> maybe have medical units that provide healing for units in the field
07:16 -!- DrJoeTron [n=DrJoeTro@adsl-75-56-50-151.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Bye."]
07:16 <akira_> civ is quite far from reality concerning army managment
07:16 <Lucifer_arma> yep
07:17 <akira_> i think the attrition system of europa universalis is quite good
07:17 -!- MrBougo [i=MrBougo@242.239-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #armagetron
07:17 <Lucifer_arma> I want to make a game that automates so much of the crap that freeciv makes you do by hand so that a much better world simulation can be provided
07:17 <MrBougo> hello!
07:20 <GodTodd> yeah...if generals had to tell everyone in the army what to do individually nothing would ever get done
07:20 <GodTodd> heh
07:21 <Lucifer_arma> so I'm about ready to start writing design documentation
07:21 <Lucifer_arma> considering how much I want the engine to handle, it would be helpful to have some sort of framework worked out that shows where everything fits
07:21 <GodTodd> yep
07:22 <akira_> heh no lucifer.. he said:"It's boring playing for the win and you just wait for others to make mistakes."
07:22 <akira_> sorry if I rarely crash into your walls!
07:22 <Lucifer_arma> how can you core dump anyone if they don't make any mistakes?
07:22 <akira_> :)
07:22 <akira_> i dont know
07:22 <akira_> i am just not following tunnels or traps
07:23 <Lucifer_arma> I usually wait to see if someone closes the tunnel before I go in
07:23 <Lucifer_arma> because if they don't close it, that means they're not expecting an attack from that direction, usually
07:23 <akira_> yes
07:23 <akira_> anyways it was just hilarious.. he couldnt beat me and had to vent
07:23 <Lucifer_arma> not that I fight directly with anybody very much anymore, since I'm usually sumo, ctf, or fortress
07:23 <akira_> hmm
07:24 <Lucifer_arma> go to a rubber server, get a kick poll!
07:24 <akira_> guess you use diff nicks
07:24 <akira_> i never see you!
07:24 <Lucifer_arma> well, I haven't played much the last few weeks, been busy with other shit
07:24 <Lucifer_arma> but during the last semester, I tried to get in an hour a week at sumo or ctf because it kept my brain working the right way for fencing
07:24 <GodTodd> who wants to get an A in calc I and calc II for me this summer?
07:25 <Lucifer_arma> semester's over, and so is the fencing class, and I didn't manage to secure any leisurely summertime fencing
07:25 <Lucifer_arma> you?
07:25 <GodTodd> yeah...but that involves more work than i like
07:25 <GodTodd> heh
07:25 <Lucifer_arma> man, don't sign up for 11 weeks of hardcore crash course calculus and then complain about it :P
07:25  * GodTodd could have signed up for a fencing class through the plano parks department
07:26 <GodTodd> :P
07:26  * Lucifer_arma could have signed up for fencing II if he had any damn money this summer
07:26 <Lucifer_arma> ok, specifications
07:26 <Lucifer_arma> I want the engine to handle RTS and turn-based
07:26 <GodTodd> different modes...that'd be cool :)
07:27 <Lucifer_arma> which basically means having the engine support a turn timeout that's kept hidden
07:27 <Lucifer_arma> well, I don't know if rts or turn-based will be a better game, so I'd like to have both so we can determine it
07:27 <GodTodd> right
07:27 <Lucifer_arma> I don't want the game to lag all hardcore at the end of every turn, though, so a lot of the management needs to be dumped on the clients
07:27 <Lucifer_arma> spread this around, there's lots of stuff the clients can do for the server that won't open up exploits in the server
07:28 <Lucifer_arma> clients just need to be restricted so they can only view the data the player can legally see
07:28 <GodTodd> yep
07:28 <Lucifer_arma> freeciv started that way, but ultimately went to dumping everything on the server
07:29 <Lucifer_arma> for ais, I'd just as soon have the server just fork some processes of a special ai client that connects with a pipe or unix domain socket, or even regular IP connection
07:30 <Lucifer_arma> so all the civ management stuff should be in a client-side library that's independent of gui
07:30 <GodTodd> right
07:30  * Lucifer_arma should be writing this somewhere else
07:31 <Lucifer_arma> so that basically defines the server process as the core game engine and network connections
07:31 <Lucifer_arma> game engine includes communication between players, of course
07:31 <Lucifer_arma> so it'll handle chat
07:31 <Lucifer_arma> so no ai in the server
07:33 <Lucifer_arma> two choices for protocols
07:33 <Lucifer_arma> to support RTS, udp should be used
07:33 <Lucifer_arma> but for turn-based, tcp is a better choice
07:34 <Lucifer_arma> so it could just support both, or udp could be used exclusively with my own code to handle error-checking (which is what tcp would be wanted for)
07:35 <MrBougo> i'm outie
07:35 <MrBougo> D:
07:36 -!- MrBougo [i=MrBougo@242.239-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has left #armagetron ["English oral exam, yeeeee :(((( :))))"]
07:36 <GodTodd> would there be much difference in overhead with either implementation of protocols?
07:40 -!- zmanuel [n=manuel@p50871CEE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #armagetron
07:44 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, I'm trying to work out what the difference is
07:45 <Lucifer_arma> as much as I'd like to support RTS and turn-based, I'm of the growing suspicion that one should be picked and the other dropped
07:45 <Lucifer_arma> the question is, when does the server apply the simulation?
07:45 <Lucifer_arma> in turn-based, it determines what the simulation is for the next turn and either applies it as the players move or when the turn is over
07:46 <Lucifer_arma> I'm leaning towards turn-based because it would be easier to implement, and away from supporting both even though I want both because picking one will get the game written faster
07:48 <Lucifer_arma> anyway, in rts, the simulation is applied at each timestep, which would be predetermined
07:49 <Lucifer_arma> and each timestep is separated from the cpu clock, because it's not that kind of simulation
07:49 <GodTodd> right
07:49 <Lucifer_arma> so you decide the scale is, say, 1 turn = 1 year, and then make it configurable how long a turn is in actual seconds
07:50 <Lucifer_arma> so for a faster game, set 1 turn to, say, 30 seconds (for freeciv-like play, or what's online anyway, not what we play)
07:50 <Lucifer_arma> for a slower game, 1 turn could be 2 minutes
07:50 <Lucifer_arma> I don't know, maybe that would be easier to implement than waiting for everyone to click turn done
07:50 <GodTodd> would it be like freeciv insofar as at the beginning you need more "setup time" than later in the game?
07:51 <Lucifer_arma> there are two things I really don't like about freeciv.  The really nasty turn lag, especially at the end of the game, and the fact that during a turn, the person who moves first gets an advantage
07:51 <Lucifer_arma> well, think about why freeciv needs more setup time earlier than later.  It's because you have to do so much crap by hand.
07:51 <GodTodd> right
07:52 <GodTodd> that's what i was wondering...will we be fixing that aspect? i assume yes :)
07:52 <Lucifer_arma> we could do something where every city has a certain percentage chance of spontaneously creating settlers, rather than having to build settlers
07:52 <Lucifer_arma> first turn could be "pick a city site, here's the area you can see"
07:52 <Lucifer_arma> as the city gets bigger, that percentage chance increases
07:52 <GodTodd> right
07:53 <Lucifer_arma> n that case, settlers get no upkeep, and a tech in the tech tree could allow building settlers later and stop the spontaneous settler creation effect
07:53 <GodTodd> urbanization or something
07:54 <Lucifer_arma> we could work in a spontaneous settler creation for city conquering, too :)
07:54 <Lucifer_arma> so a city drops one point for being taken, then has a certain chance of creating settlers, each at a cost of 1 point
07:54 <GodTodd> i do like the "zone of influence" thing from civ 3 too
07:54 <Lucifer_arma> if the player doesn't assign the settlers to a task, they automatically go find a new place to settle
07:55 <Lucifer_arma> what's the zone of influence thing in civ 3?
07:55 <GodTodd> ok...you have "influence borders" where within that border people are loyal to your government and like what you do
07:55 <GodTodd> for the most part anyway
07:56 <GodTodd> as your civ gets "cooler" and bigger your zone of influence increases
07:56 <Lucifer_arma> and if those borders are outside your territorial borders, those cities might join you?
07:56 <Lucifer_arma> and if they're inside your territorial borders, you have more problems in the outer cities?
07:56 <GodTodd> if your zone encompasses an enemy city, they tend to revolt and turn to you
07:56 <GodTodd> right
07:57 <Lucifer_arma> I want to work something like that, but I don't know about an influence border
07:57 <GodTodd> kind of like when mexico had texas
07:57 <GodTodd> they ostensibly controlled texas but keeping them in line was rough
07:57 <Lucifer_arma> I was thinking of just expanding the happiness thing, to where a city gets a happiness rating, and when bad shit happens to the city, it would choose a different reaction depending on happiness
07:58 <GodTodd> i think (if possible) the closer you are to the seat of government, the happier the city is
07:58 <Lucifer_arma> we should try to be flexible enough to allow that, but it sounds like a lot of work :/
07:58 <GodTodd> er that was almost a sentence heh
07:59 <GodTodd> is it going to be coordinate based at all?
07:59 <Lucifer_arma> well, it has to be, doesn't it?
07:59 <GodTodd> i would think so
07:59 <Lucifer_arma> three choices of coordinates
08:00 <Lucifer_arma> we could do polar, and generate every world as two discs, where at a certain radius from the pole you can wrap to the other disc
08:00 <Lucifer_arma> rendering that will be a pain
08:00 <Lucifer_arma> we could do spherical and have the game take place on an actual globe
08:00 <Lucifer_arma> rendering that will be a pain too
08:00 <Lucifer_arma> or we could just do cartesian, and wrap like freeciv
08:00 <Lucifer_arma> I'm inclined to just do that, as much as I want a globe
08:01 <Lucifer_arma> no grid, though
08:01 <GodTodd> yeah...cartesian would be easiest...but globe would be cooler
08:01 <GodTodd> heh
08:01 <Lucifer_arma> floating point coordinates :)
08:01 <Lucifer_arma> well, let's try to be flexible enough to go in later and add spherical
08:01 <GodTodd> that would be ideal
08:02 <GodTodd> i was just thinking that....do cartesian for now but make it to where we can upgrade to spherical later
08:02 <Lucifer_arma> obviously, for turn-based, we don't have to screw it up the way freeciv did.  We should still receive network events, pass over chat, and the client should show a "server computing" progressbar or something
08:02 <Lucifer_arma> then when the new turn is ready, show something that says "new turn ready, beginning in <countdown>"
08:03 <GodTodd> right
08:03 <Lucifer_arma> that would eliminate the turn lag, because we could still chat, while still allowing the server to take whatever time it needs, without dropping clients
08:03 <Lucifer_arma> is that better than trying to do RTS, where you can't even get up to pee if you need to?
08:03 <GodTodd> yeah...that bugs me with freeciv...you do nothing but wait while the ai moves
08:04 <Lucifer_arma> well, the ai will move at the same time as the players this way, by having it run in a separate process
08:04 <GodTodd> so...kind of a "turn based RTS"
08:04 <Lucifer_arma> no, still weighing turn-based vs rts
08:05 <Lucifer_arma> I think at the heart of it, it's the same thing
08:05 <Lucifer_arma> the only difference is that turn-based allows you to click turn done
08:05 <Lucifer_arma> now here's an alternate take on turn-based that solves the other problem with freeciv
08:06 <Lucifer_arma> every turn, we roll for initiative, just like in D&D
08:06 <Lucifer_arma> then players management panels take their turns in sequence, and commands a player sends get queued until their turn
08:06 <Lucifer_arma> if you send a command after your turn is over, it gets queued until the next turn
08:06 <Lucifer_arma> you'll be able to do stuff the whole time, no problem
08:07 <GodTodd> so in hand to hand combat...you hope to get initiative on your attack turn
08:07 <Lucifer_arma> ?
08:07 <Lucifer_arma> it's a civ game...
08:08 <Lucifer_arma> we could add initiative modifiers based on in-game conditions
08:08 <Lucifer_arma> see, here's the rub with how freeciv does it
08:08 <Lucifer_arma> say you've got a unit sitting on a railroad that goes through a mountain, and your opponent has one on the other side of the mountain
08:08 <Lucifer_arma> if you move yours first, you can secure the mountain and then channel 50 million units through
08:08 <Lucifer_arma> if he moves his first, he can do that and you're blocked
08:09 <Lucifer_arma> this doesn't make sense!  Not in a turn-based game, anyway
08:09 <GodTodd> right
08:09 <Lucifer_arma> you could have the biggest, baddest naval screen setup, and your opponent could take out a big chunk with one submarine just by moving his mouse faster than you
08:09 <GodTodd> yep
08:10 <Lucifer_arma> so the first solution I came up with was to queue up all events and then execute them at the same time, with some predetermined way of resolving conflicts
08:10 <Lucifer_arma> such as what happens when both units hit the mountain at the same time
08:10 <Lucifer_arma> do they attack each other?  If so, who attacks who?  Matters when you consider how different their attack/defense ratings can be
08:10 <GodTodd> so...the initiative thing would resolve the "same time" conflicts then?
08:10 <Lucifer_arma> to resolve that problem, I just came up with initiative.  :)
08:11 <Lucifer_arma> so the player's client would be given a certain amount of time to send turn moves freely, at the end of which his turn moves are queued until the next turn
08:11 <Lucifer_arma> the client would need some way to limit what it sends, so it doesn't go and fill up the next 200 turns with crap
08:11 <GodTodd> right
08:12 <Lucifer_arma> then, after everybody has taken a turn, we generate the next turn's parameters
08:12 <Lucifer_arma> which is production, food, money, weather, etc.
08:13 <GodTodd> right
08:13 <Lucifer_arma> for performance reasons, we could probably try to generate as much of that as possible while players are moving, so we just have to copy a reference (reducing turn lag)
08:15 <Lucifer_arma> so if you go first, you get the advantage of winning every little movement conflict that happens, your military gets right of way, essentially
08:15 <GodTodd> right
08:15 <Lucifer_arma> but you lose the advantage of having fewer commands you can execute because you went first, so if you didn't save up enough commands from last turn, that's it
08:16 <Lucifer_arma> we could set a limit to the queue to make that more distinct, or just disallow commands sent after your turn is up (commands that configure your locally-running management ai don't count here)
08:16 <Lucifer_arma> if you go last, you lose the right of way for your military, but you get to save up more commands and run them on your turn
08:17 <Lucifer_arma> so make this more distinct, we should have an unlimited queue from the moment the turn starts :)
08:17 <akira_> i hate initiative rolls
08:17 <akira_> ...
08:17 <GodTodd> and initiative will be mostly just random, right?
08:18 <akira_> they are so non-realistic
08:18 <Lucifer_arma> a random element, and probably stay that way for awhile, but try to come up with reasonable modifiers
08:18 <GodTodd> right
08:18 <Lucifer_arma> if you've just initiated a surprise attack on an enemy, you should have an initiative bonus attached
08:18 <Lucifer_arma> city improvements, satellites (heh), etc, should have initiative modifiers available as well
08:19 <GodTodd> radio too
08:19 <Lucifer_arma> yep
08:19 <GodTodd> better communication amongst units :)
08:19 <Lucifer_arma> only that shows a weakness in the idea
08:20 <Lucifer_arma> without radio, units near the area affected shouldn't have the same loss of initiative as units far away
08:20 <Lucifer_arma> of course, units far away can't do anything anyway
08:20 <GodTodd> right
08:20 <GodTodd> i also don't like "move across the continent in no time" with railroads
08:20 <Lucifer_arma> me neither, and we won't do that
08:20 <GodTodd> they should make you faster but not superman
08:20 <Lucifer_arma> I want railroads to be a separate improvement, separate from roads
08:21 <GodTodd> definitely
08:21 <GodTodd> because they are
08:21 <Lucifer_arma> roads should have an upgrade path that goes cobblestone->pavement->highway->freeway->robotic freeway
08:21 <GodTodd> yep
08:21 <Lucifer_arma> and railroads should be railroads->monorail->bullet train->supersonic train
08:21 <GodTodd> starting withh dirt, of course :P
08:22 <Lucifer_arma> if we were at a lower scale, then sure.  :)  But at a global scale, I think we can ignore dirt roads
08:22 <GodTodd> airporrts need to be better too, i think
08:22 <akira_> yous re?
08:22 <akira_> sure*
08:22 <akira_> because
08:23 <akira_> in ancient times up to mediaval
08:23 <akira_> there were lots of woods
08:23 <akira_> and
08:23 <Lucifer_arma> akira = spidey?
08:23 <akira_> a dirt road made much diff :)
08:23 <akira_> err
08:23 <akira_> i am akira
08:23 <Lucifer_arma> then quit talking like spidey!
08:23 <akira_> always was
08:23 <GodTodd> haha
08:24 <akira_> for 4 years of tron now..
08:24 <Lucifer_arma> yes, dirt roads make a big difference, but consider how much you can simulate a worker doing in a turn that spans a year's time
08:24 <akira_> dirt roads through woods take time..
08:24 <GodTodd> if they're new mexican that would be about a foot of road ;)
08:24 <Lucifer_arma> sure, the worker could build a dirt road, but for the area he's working in, at that scale, he could also build a cobbled road
08:25 <Lucifer_arma> man, new mexico is just one big road, if you consider dirt a road
08:25 <akira_> i am just saying...
08:25 <akira_> that there were alot more dirt roads than other for a loooong time
08:25 <Lucifer_arma> I'm not disagreeing, I'm just thinking at the scale we're talking, for cross-country roadbuilding, it doesn't matter
08:26 <Lucifer_arma> well, a lot of the dirt roads were areas that were previously cobblestoned by the romans ;)
08:26 <GodTodd> or the mayans
08:26 <GodTodd> (on the other side of the world) :)
08:26 <Lucifer_arma> he does make an interesting suggestion, though
08:26 <Lucifer_arma> a civilization that just appeared out of thin air can't build cobblestone roads without masonry
08:26 <GodTodd> right
08:26 <Lucifer_arma> (which I never understood in civ anyway)
08:27 <akira_> btw
08:27 <akira_> dou you have a reasonable technology system?
08:27 <Lucifer_arma> we don't have one yet
08:27  * GodTodd just thought of an analogy for the road thing
08:27 <akira_> civs just sucked
08:28 <Lucifer_arma> I thought the core was good, I just didn't like either the tech tree, or the lack of development otherwise on it
08:28 <GodTodd> there were also many more years of cavemen before civilized society...but we can ignore that on our scale too :)
08:28 <Lucifer_arma> I don't like how freeciv handles tech transfers either
08:28 <akira_> no i thought of sth. like
08:28 <akira_> cross reference points
08:28 <akira_> like you research
08:28 <akira_> writing
08:29 <akira_> and get cross points in other techs
08:29 <GodTodd> yeah...a lot of the stuff on civs tech tree makes no sense...things connected that don't need to be or stuff you get before something that it depends on
08:29 <Lucifer_arma> that's not a bad idea
08:29 <Lucifer_arma> then when you switch techs, you don't throw away what you've learned already, you just can only apply it to the old tech
08:29 <Lucifer_arma> so later, when you get back to it, you can pick up from where you left off
08:29 <akira_> because i never understood that you have to research alhpabet for example and dont get writing :)
08:30 <GodTodd> so you don't "unlearn" that stuff :) that'd work
08:30 <Lucifer_arma> ah, the difference makes sense, actually
08:30 <akira_> well sure
08:30 <akira_> but its not a FAR step
08:30 <Lucifer_arma> alphabet gets you basic accounting, which is what you see in mesapotamia
08:30 <Lucifer_arma> but writing is real communication
08:30 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, I don't disagree with that either, just saying alphabet and writing as separate techs is sensible
08:31 <akira_> yes
08:31 <Lucifer_arma> let's not worry so much about what's on the tech tree just yet, we'll put that in an xml document we can modify later :)
08:31 <Lucifer_arma> but how it works is important
08:31 <Lucifer_arma> so, every turn you research, and you get x points of "general research", which can be thought of as learning how to learn, and you get y points towards the specific tech you're researching
08:32 <Lucifer_arma> when you get a tech, you get some groups of bonus points that apply to related techs
08:32 <Lucifer_arma> if you research the tech
08:32 <Lucifer_arma> if you acquire the tech some other way, you don't get the bonus points
08:32 <Lucifer_arma> how does that sound?
08:32 <akira_> hmm
08:32 <GodTodd> the bonus points would go to a group of related techs then?
08:32 <akira_> actually i'd say 
08:32 <Lucifer_arma> if you switch techs, your general research points stay with you, but your specific tech points stay with the old tech, and we depreciate that util you restart it
08:32 <akira_> you get bonus points every turn your research
08:32 <akira_> you*
08:33 <Lucifer_arma> instead of the general points I mentioned, or in addition?
08:33 <Lucifer_arma> are we going to break the second law of thermodynamics with this?  ;)
08:33 <akira_> ah
08:33 <akira_> now i see
08:33 <Lucifer_arma> it could be in addition
08:34 <Lucifer_arma> but the bonus points would have to be less than 1:1 to make sense
08:34 <Lucifer_arma> and to be able to balance
08:34 <akira_> it houhgt x research and y,z% to related techs every turn
08:34 <akira_> i*
08:34 <Lucifer_arma> so you get the general points, and you get the tech specific points, and then you get some percentage of those as bonus points for related techs
08:34 <akira_> i dont understand the general points
08:34 <akira_> .. :)
08:34 <Lucifer_arma> so while you're researching rocketry, you get some bonus points towards electronics
08:35 <akira_> bad example
08:35 <akira_> but yes
08:35 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, I know ;)
08:35 <Lucifer_arma> you can't use the bonus points until you start researching that tech, and we should depreciate them, because while you're not actively researching it,
08:35 <Lucifer_arma> your facilities are rotting and your training and education is dropping off
08:36 <Lucifer_arma> depreciation factor should be configurable
08:36 <Lucifer_arma> I'm not sure the general points thing is a good idea either
08:36 <akira_> can you please separate commerce and science :)
08:36 <akira_> i hate that in civ
08:36 <akira_> HATE
08:36 <Lucifer_arma> commerce and science are separate in civ?
08:36 <akira_> no
08:37 <akira_> commerce stat splits in money and science
08:37 <Lucifer_arma> oh, I see
08:37 <akira_> i hate that system
08:37 <akira_> its soooo
08:37 <Lucifer_arma> I like the ideas in civ that generate all the production stuff, but I don't like the implementation
08:37 <akira_> capitalistic
08:38 <akira_> science should cost a certain amount of production/food/money ... maybe changing during times
08:39 <Lucifer_arma> also depends on the tech
08:39 <akira_> but not per se connected to commerce
08:39 <Lucifer_arma> the atom bomb was a $billions project
08:39 <akira_> yea
08:39 <Lucifer_arma> but gunpowder was invented by one guy fucking off
08:39 <Lucifer_arma> (granted he was probably chinese)
08:40 <Lucifer_arma> we could have a science tax that determines what percentage of surpluses of shields/food/money will be put towards science
08:41 <akira_> yea
08:41 <Lucifer_arma> hmm, should think on that some more.  We still haven't figured out what the main game loop looks like, and we can't code anything without that ;)
08:41 <akira_> that sounds way more reasonable
08:41 <Lucifer_arma> I want a more in-depth economic model anyway
08:41 <Lucifer_arma> it might make more sense to create an education model and build science from that
08:41 <akira_> any ideas for the economy?
08:42 <Lucifer_arma> some :)
08:42 <Lucifer_arma> ok, there's a system I want in place that doesn't exist in any civ game, afaik.
08:42 <Lucifer_arma> I want a legal system
08:42 <akira_> yes
08:42 <Lucifer_arma> it would work basically like the science system, where you pick the law you want passed and accumulate points towards it until it passes
08:42 <Lucifer_arma> laws would allow you to do things like change taxes (might be the only way to do that), convert shields to money, food to shields, etc.
08:43 <Lucifer_arma> you could pass laws that would address pollution to some extent, and so forth
08:43 <akira_> oh you still want shields
08:43 <akira_> ..
08:44 <Lucifer_arma> every law would carry some base modifiers that effect your population some way that would interact with government type and other things
08:44 <akira_> maybe you could come up with a derivated production modifier
08:44 <Lucifer_arma> not sure I want shields, just using the term because it's already understood :)
08:44 <akira_> population/tech/money/food
08:44 <akira_> tiles
08:44 <akira_> or landscape
08:44 <Lucifer_arma> I was thinking more like if you pass a law that increases prison terms, you could make your population more unhappy but reduce corruption
08:45 <akira_> someone has to do some real nasty math work then :)
08:45 <Lucifer_arma> math shouldn't be that hard :)
08:45 <akira_> i think it is
08:46 <Lucifer_arma> we could just have food and money as the only base units that a city can generate, and everything else derives from those
08:46 <akira_> hmm
08:46 <Lucifer_arma> nah, we have to have resources
08:46 <akira_> and money is a strange thing to generate
08:46 <Lucifer_arma> so for resources, I was considering breaking shields up into other resource types
08:46 <akira_> because basically it does nothing
08:46 <Lucifer_arma> not really, money is "that other stuff".  An ancient civilization might trade pottery, for example
08:47 <Lucifer_arma> so, I want city-to-city resource trading
08:47 <Lucifer_arma> what never made sense to me was that I could have a city starving while right next to it was a well-irrigated city that was growing
08:47 <Lucifer_arma> what makes sense is for the growing city to send food to the starving city, make some money, and I get it in taxes
08:48 <Lucifer_arma> it also never made sense to me that a city in the middle of a forest can build tanks with the shields it generates
08:49 <akira_> :D
08:49 <Lucifer_arma> I realize the practicality that made sid meier dream up shields in the first place, but I don't know that we need to be restricted by it if there's inter-city trade
08:49 <akira_> dont you know the steeltrees?
08:49 <Lucifer_arma> those must grow in russia, I've never seen them
08:50 <akira_> I was in russia
08:50 <akira_> not there too
08:50 <akira_> ;)
08:50 <Lucifer_arma> not even by chernobyl?
08:50 <Lucifer_arma> I guess that's in the ukraine now
08:50 <akira_> I haven't been there..
08:51 <Lucifer_arma> I would prefer to abstract metals as just "metal" resources
08:51 <Lucifer_arma> except for special metals, like uranium
08:51 <Lucifer_arma> even if youc an build nukes, you need a supply of uranium!
08:52 <akira_> well thats like civ 3-4
08:52 <GodTodd> get them from the same trees you get the steel from :)
08:52 <GodTodd> s/them/it
08:52 <Lucifer_arma> I *know* those are at chernobyl!
08:53 <Lucifer_arma> so, without a grid, there is a real problem of determining where a city's resources come from
08:53 <akira_> hmm
08:53 <GodTodd> also...nuking a place should do more than just cause pollution and immediate population loss
08:53 <akira_> cant you add modifiers to terrain ?
08:53 <Lucifer_arma> the problem is in computing them
08:53 <akira_> what do you mean?
08:53 <Lucifer_arma> how much area can a population point work?  does it have to be contiguous?
08:54 <akira_> well for the start
08:54 <akira_> i would do percentages
08:54 <akira_> maybe somewhat can come up with a realistic formula
08:54 <akira_> someone*
08:54 <Lucifer_arma> I was thinking we could define the availalbe workable area as the area a worker can reach in one turn
08:55 <Lucifer_arma> so if there's a railroad, the area along the railroad out to one turn's movement by a worker is workable
08:55 <akira_> its like in CTP
08:55 <Lucifer_arma> so no city radius anymore
08:55 <akira_> there were no tiles to be worked
08:55 <Lucifer_arma> of course, with no improvements with homogeneous terrain, you'd have a city radius
08:56 <akira_> that sounds pretty neat
08:56 <Lucifer_arma> then we take that area and compute how many resources are available in the area
08:56 <Lucifer_arma> we can just do simpson's rule to approximate the area
08:57 <Lucifer_arma> that should be sufficiently fast, and really easy to code
08:57 <Lucifer_arma> get line intersections, pretty straightforward really (GodTodd will learn simpson's rule this summer)
08:57 <GodTodd> heh
08:57 <akira_> Hmmm I get really interested in that project Lucifer :)
08:58 <akira_> because i always dreamed of some realistic strategy game
08:58 <akira_> dreamt*
08:58 <Lucifer_arma> can you code?
08:58 <akira_> no!
08:58 <akira_> ;)
08:58 <akira_> but if there is any work besides coding
08:58 <akira_> research
08:58 <akira_> whatever
08:58 <Lucifer_arma> stick around, there will be, if it gets off the ground :)
08:59 <Lucifer_arma> the question is, how should the population be applied to the workable area, after we've taken a sum of what's available?
08:59 <GodTodd> percentages
08:59 <Lucifer_arma> civ sidestepped the question by assigning one worker to one square
09:00 <akira_> but percentages should be flexible
09:00 <akira_> given the technology
09:00 <Lucifer_arma> percentages?  You need a maximum in the denominator to get a percentage
09:00 <akira_> well take some basic stuff
09:00 <akira_> percentage of kids
09:00 <akira_> etc
09:01 <GodTodd> you have a certain number of workers available for a certain amount of workable resources
09:01 <akira_> maybe there can be influence of paradigms too
09:01 <akira_> slavery
09:01 <akira_> etc
09:01 <Lucifer_arma> so if you have 8 workers, you can only get 8 shields?  (unmodified here, of course)
09:02 <Lucifer_arma> or you just say, for example, "30% food, 50% shield, 20% fucking off" and then the workers are assigned accordingly?
09:02 <GodTodd> right
09:02 <akira_> yes that way
09:02 <akira_> maybe ancient times 90% food
09:02 <akira_> ;)
09:02 <Lucifer_arma> we'll have to depend pretty heavily on the tech tree to produce bonuses thataway, but that's not a big deal
09:03 <akira_> isnt it dependent anyways?
09:03 <akira_> i eman
09:03 <akira_> mean
09:03 <akira_> before irrigation
09:03 <Lucifer_arma> that's actually more reasonable, I think, because it never did make sense that a city in the middle of butt-fucking nowhere could magically come up with 50 shields per turn and be able to build tanks
09:03 <akira_> yes
09:03 <GodTodd> exactly
09:04 <akira_> and since there is few food = no farms you can never get off a high production by itself
09:04 <Lucifer_arma> so we should have instead of unmodified resources and modifiers to influence that, how about raw materials, worked materials, and really worked materials?
09:04 <Lucifer_arma> so to build a tank in a city using only the city's resources, you also need a metalworking shop to turn iron into steel
09:05 <akira_> yes
09:05 <Lucifer_arma> if you don't have a metalworking shop, the city can ship the metals it mines out to some other city to work it
09:05 <GodTodd> yep
09:05 <GodTodd> exactly
09:05 <Lucifer_arma> or better yet, it doesn't build tanks, it just ships what it mines and gets money for it :)
09:05 <GodTodd> which makes use of the resource sharing :)
09:06 <GodTodd> it's like in west texas...many communities take oil out of the ground...fewer actually do anything with it
09:06 <akira_> that also implies infrastrucure
09:06 <GodTodd> they send it elsewhere for refining
09:07 <Lucifer_arma> yes, it does imply infrastructure
09:07 <Lucifer_arma> I want the manager to handle shipping, and to use real units to ship resources
09:07 <akira_> in galciv
09:07 <akira_> 2
09:07 <Lucifer_arma> because I want to be able to send a boatload of ammunition to my ally who's run out of bullets :)
09:07 <akira_> there are automated freighters
09:07 <akira_> which appear on the map as small units
09:07 <akira_> you cna attack them
09:07 <akira_> can
09:07 <GodTodd> would it be automatic? like...in order to *not* build tanks with the metal you just don't build the metalshop?
09:07 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, that's what I mean, exactly
09:08 <Lucifer_arma> well, remember there's a manager working for you to give you the things you've asked for
09:08 <GodTodd> right
09:08 <Lucifer_arma> it'll try to optimize it
09:08 <Lucifer_arma> and there's no point trying to add character to the manager, let it optimize as perfectly as we can
09:08 <GodTodd> heh
09:08 <Lucifer_arma> if we try to add character, or some sort of limits, this code will run on the client side, and that's just a cheating vector
09:09 <akira_> hmm
09:09 <akira_> limits could be done through paradigms or society models
09:09 <Lucifer_arma> yes, handled on the server, no problem
09:10 <akira_> organized romans had a pretty good trade system
09:10 <akira_> opposed to feudal germany
09:10 <akira_> ;)
09:11 <Lucifer_arma> right, so we can work out something like "a city has a base of freights equal to its population, which can move according to its tech development" as the base rule
09:11 <Lucifer_arma> then use social conditions, government type, etc, to modify that
09:11 <Lucifer_arma> and at the beginning of the turn, we'll tell the clients what they have to work with for that turn
09:12 <Lucifer_arma> if they have less freights to work with this turn than they loaded up last turn, we either let them keep the excess until they've arrived at their destination, or the server randomly kills the difference
09:12 <Lucifer_arma> so we can limit it that way, just not by code that is expected to run on the client side
09:12 <Lucifer_arma> and the manager will run on the client side :)
09:13 <akira_> this has a goodside of limiting the stupid: I build every fucking building in every city
09:14 <akira_> because the ressources are vital for building stuff i suppose
09:14 <Lucifer_arma> the idea is that you won't build buildings anymore, or units.  Instead, you'll give each city a priority, and create groups of units with assigned home cities
09:14 <Lucifer_arma> the manager will then try to develop the city as best it can while providing, supplying, training, and upgrading the units
09:14 <akira_> ehh what about sity infrastructure?
09:14 <Lucifer_arma> units already built will be able to train to learn new skills, if the training center has been built
09:14 <akira_> city
09:15 <Lucifer_arma> such as?
09:15 <akira_> schools, baths, 
09:15 <akira_> factories
09:15 <akira_> etcetc
09:15 <Lucifer_arma> manager will build those
09:15 <akira_> :o
09:15 <Lucifer_arma> they'll be there, and you'll be able to see them appearing on the map (hopefully), but the manager will build them
09:15 <Lucifer_arma> we need to work out some interface for telling the manager effectively so it can build those things
09:16 <Lucifer_arma> also, a way for the manager to tell *you* what it's got planned so you can change its plan
09:16 <GodTodd> like if you say "i want this city to produce much shit" the manager will optimize it using available technology such as factories
09:16 <akira_> yes
09:16 <Lucifer_arma> which matters in key cities, but most cities you don't want to bother micromanaging like that
09:16 <akira_> sounds like MoO3
09:16 <Lucifer_arma> the manager will also have access to the treasury and can use gold you've acquired to speed up its production as needed
09:17 <akira_> there was also some pre-existing global building manager
09:17 <Lucifer_arma> but you'll set a threshold
09:17 <GodTodd> like setting a budget?
09:17 <Lucifer_arma> yep :)
09:18 <Lucifer_arma> and borrowing from other players will be tracked ;)
09:18 <GodTodd> "you can use what you need as long as it is <= x dollars/gold/luk-jr_ money"
09:18 <Lucifer_arma> interest can be assigned, treaties can be made on it, etc.
09:18 <Lucifer_arma> exactly
09:18 <Lucifer_arma> and also "send 20% of my earnings to <my ally>"
09:19 <GodTodd> keep track of a "civ debt" as a way to determine whether friendly ais will loan money to you?
09:19 <Lucifer_arma> so when spidey says "Luci, can you be army guy and I'll be science guy?" I can say "Sure, pay me 200 gold per turn"
09:19 <Lucifer_arma> sure, we can do that
09:19 <Lucifer_arma> I was thinking more of just tracking debts and allowing players to forgive debts and having it give some sort of ingame standing
09:19 <GodTodd> the more you owe the less likely someone will give you stuff
09:19 <Lucifer_arma> right
09:19 <akira_> well Ai programming is a wholly diff thing
09:20 <akira_> I wont even think about that :)
09:20 <Lucifer_arma> well, we're hoping that the manager will make it possible to actually program a smart ai :)
09:20 <Lucifer_arma> and the ais we'll try to add character to :)
09:20 <akira_> Seeing that many games fail at this
09:20 <GodTodd> well...we'd want to keep it as a field as well...i'd like to know how much shit Lucifer_arma has borrowed from others before i give him the 200 a turn he's whining for ;)
09:21 <Lucifer_arma> sure, but we'll need a way to limit that information, so you have to get a credit report ;)
09:21 <GodTodd> right
09:21 <akira_> and also check luci's armysize and general power ;)
09:21 <GodTodd> heh...armysize can be hidden...even from allies ;)
09:21  * GodTodd knows, i'm american
09:21 <GodTodd> heh
09:21 <akira_> you preparing WW3?
09:22 <Lucifer_arma> ok, so we've figured out city production, and turn sequence.  This can probably start being coded, soon as I grab it into a document for reference
09:22 <Lucifer_arma> should I try to setup a wiki for this?  :/
09:22 <Lucifer_arma> there's a lot of folks here interested in helping
09:22 <GodTodd> we'd want a wiki eventually...would it be helpful from the beginning?
09:23 <Lucifer_arma> considering how many non-coders there are that want to help?
09:23 <GodTodd> we'd need a working title then too, eh?
09:24 <Lucifer_arma> already have one
09:24 <Lucifer_arma> Eugenics
09:25 -!- Durka [n=Durka@cpe-76-167-238-228.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #armagetron
09:26 <Durka> #help lastseen
09:26 <Durka> :O
09:26 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, I'll setup a wiki tonight before I go to bed (meaning in just a few minutes) and then copy the chatlog to a place on there as a buffer
09:26 <Durka> damn, armabot isn't here
09:26 <Lucifer_arma> tomorrow start separating it into real documents
09:26 <Durka> Lucifer_arma: >.<
09:26 <Durka> what happened to the MonoBook style?
09:26 <Lucifer_arma> as soon as we start specifying file formats, folks around here will start creating them
09:26 <Durka> :'(
09:26 <Lucifer_arma> Durka: ask guru3, he's in charge of the wiki now
09:26 <Durka> heh
09:27 <Lucifer_arma> not trying to pass the buck, if I knew the answer I'd tell you
09:27 <Lucifer_arma> I'd harass you first, of course
09:27 <Durka> :P
09:28 <Durka> Lucifer_arma: where's the feed for the #lastseen feature (on wrtlpwnd's site)
09:29 <Durka> :O
09:31 <Durka> >.>
09:42 <Durka> ?
09:49 -!- Durka [n=Durka@cpe-76-167-238-228.socal.res.rr.com] has quit []
10:03 <Lucifer_arma> since when did I become the expert on all things arma?
10:51 -!- deja_vu [n=deja_vu@rz-du-rzx-128-118.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #armagetron
10:52 <Lucifer_arma> http://eugenics.davefancella.com/index.php/Main_Page
10:56 <Lucifer_arma> !later tell Your_mom_arma There's a page for this civ game, now dubbed 'eugenics'.  http://eugenics.davefancella.com/
10:56 <BotSub> Lucifer_arma: The operation succeeded.
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11:38 -!- AL [n=AL@pool-71-255-205-121.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined #armagetron
11:42 <AL> Hi.  I've been looking for the new iteration of "newline" in 0.3.0:  is there a new "\n" ?
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12:25 <P4> hi AL
12:25 <P4> i don't know but it's a bit insecure imo
12:29 -!- MaZuffeR [n=MaZuffeR@darkmoor.sby.abo.fi] has joined #armagetron
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12:42 <DrJoeTron> yo
12:46 <AL> hey doc
12:47 <guru3> hey dr
12:56 -!- epsy [n=epsy@mar75-4-82-227-65-72.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #armagetron
13:00 -!- kidanger [n=kidanger@103.136.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #armagetron
13:01 <epsy> hi
13:01 <kidanger> Hey !
13:01 <epsy> #list
13:01 <epsy> !list
13:01 <BotSub> epsy: Admin, Alias, AutoMode, Babelfish, Channel, ChannelLogger, ChannelStats, Config, Dict, Geekquote, Google, Herald, Insult, Later, Math, Misc, NickCapture, Nickometer, Owner, Plugin, Praise, Quote, RSS, Seen, Services, String, Time, Topic, User, Utilities, and Weather
13:02 <epsy> #serverinfo cafe
13:02 <epsy> !serverinfo cafe
13:02 <BotSub> epsy: Error: "serverinfo" is not a valid command.
13:02 <epsy> awww
13:02 <kidanger> ...
13:03 <P4> epsy: we got to set RSSes and fetches ;}
13:03 <P4> it's somewhere on wrtlprnft site :)
13:04 <kidanger> #config
13:04 <epsy> !!!
13:04 <BotSub> epsy: Error: "!!" is not a valid command.
13:04 <epsy> !delire
13:04 <BotSub> epsy: Error: "delire" is not a valid command.
13:04 <epsy> xD
13:04 <P4> i think i know who abuses armabot when he quits, epsy :>
13:05 <epsy> ? xD
13:12 <DrJoeTron> you 
13:12 <DrJoeTron> thats who
13:13 <epsy> first, when who quits ??
13:17 <kidanger> #lastseen Xian
13:29 <AL> P4: i don't know but it's a bit insecure imo.... sry, don't get that
13:29 <AL> looking for newline cmd... anyone?
13:30 <AL> used to be \n
13:31 <DrJoeTron> #m GodTodd test
13:31 <DrJoeTron> baww
13:32 <DrJoeTron> GodTodd tell your bot to stop sucking!
13:37 <GodTodd> !m DrJoeTron my bot only sucks if i order him to :P
13:37 <BotSub> GodTodd: Error: "m" is not a valid command.
13:37 <GodTodd> oops
13:37 <GodTodd> heh
13:37 <DrJoeTron> hah
13:37 <GodTodd> !m DrJoeTron my bot only sucks if i order him to :P
13:37 <BotSub> GodTodd: The operation succeeded.
13:56 <kidanger> epsy: ?
13:57 -!- ghableska [n=ghablesk@12-216-182-238.client.mchsi.com] has joined #armagetron
13:58 <ghableska> !weather 50266
13:58 <BotSub> ghableska: The current temperature in West Des Moines, Iowa is 67.8°F (6:55 AM CDT on May 30, 2007). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 74%. Dew Point: 59.0°F. Pressure: 28.95 in 980.2 hPa (Falling).  Flood Watch in effect from this afternoon through late tonight... 
13:59 <ghableska> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6703423.stm
14:03 -!- zmanuel [n=manuel@p50871CEE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #armagetron
14:06 <AL> still waiting for answer... "\n" is no longer valid as a newline cmd. is there another way?
14:06 <AL> purpose: add ascii welcome msg to my server
14:07 <AL> !weather 21211
14:07 <BotSub> AL: The current temperature in South Baltimore, Baltimore, Maryland is 71.8°F (8:09 AM EDT on May 30, 2007). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 62%. Dew Point: 57.2°F. Pressure: 30.20 in 1022.6 hPa (Steady). 
14:07 <AL> heh
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18:33 <mkzelda> !weather 27545
18:33 <BotSub> mkzelda: The current temperature in Hedingham, Raleigh, North Carolina is 84.6°F (12:35 PM EDT on May 30, 2007). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 35%. Dew Point: 53.6°F. Pressure: 30.18 in 1021.9 hPa (Falling). 
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19:19 <epsy> !time
19:19 <BotSub> epsy: 12:22 PM, May 30, 2007
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19:45 <epsy> rha il avait une vielle version de procyon unison, MrBougo xD
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20:00 -!- Lucifer_arma [n=satan@adsl-68-93-135-129.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20:05 <epsy> !help echo
20:05 <BotSub> epsy: (echo <text>) -- Returns the arguments given it. Uses our standard substitute on the string(s) given to it; $nick (or $who), $randomNick, $randomInt, $botnick, $channel, $user, $host, $today, $now, and $randomDate are all handled appropriately.
20:05 <epsy> o_O
20:06 <epsy> !help pingflood
20:06 <BotSub> epsy: Error: There is no command "pingflood".
20:06 <epsy> o_O
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20:56 <epsy> luke-jr_work, try !echo $channel: ping
20:59 <luke-jr_work> no
21:17 <mkzelda> akira_: that mario video is great
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22:07 <Vanhayes> !list
22:07 <BotSub> Vanhayes: Admin, Alias, AutoMode, Babelfish, Channel, ChannelLogger, ChannelStats, Config, Dict, Geekquote, Google, Herald, Insult, Later, Math, Misc, NickCapture, Nickometer, Owner, Plugin, Praise, Quote, RSS, Seen, Services, String, Time, Topic, User, Utilities, and Weather
22:07 <Vanhayes> !list alias
22:07 <BotSub> Vanhayes: add, c, calc, lock, luke, m, night, q, remove, and unlock
22:07 <Vanhayes> !list rss
22:07 <BotSub> Vanhayes: add, announce, info, remove, and rss
22:14 <epsy> !serverinfo cafe
22:14 <BotSub> epsy: Error: "serverinfo" is not a valid command.
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22:19 <mkzelda> !luke
22:19 <BotSub> blah blah jesus blah blah i'm great or smth blah blah RTFM blah blah stfu baka noob blah blah
22:20 <luke-jr_work> !alias del luke
22:20 <BotSub> luke-jr_work: Error: The "Alias" plugin is loaded, but there is no command named "del" in it.  Try "list Alias" to see the commands in the "Alias" plugin.
22:21 <luke-jr_work> !alias remove luke
22:21 <BotSub> luke-jr_work: The operation succeeded.
22:24 <mkzelda> Luke copied Matthew's gospel, cheater
22:26 <luke-jr_work> mkzelda
22:28 <mkzelda> its okay luke, matthew actually cheated off of mark's paper
22:28 <mkzelda> so its all one big orgy
22:34 <mkzelda> mkzelda
22:35 -!- P4 [i=p4z@ebd210.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #armagetron
22:36 <luke-jr_work> mkzelda
22:36 <mkzelda> thats my name dont wear it out, or copy it
22:36 <mkzelda> cheater cheater pumpkin eater
22:36 <luke-jr_work> mkzelda
22:36 <luke-jr_work> mkzelda
22:37 <mkzelda> haha
22:37 <mkzelda> :D
22:38 <mkzelda> luke-jr_work: im sure theres some relevant scripture re: fingering another gentlemen
22:38 <mkzelda> at least you didnt finger me AFTER stabbing and choking me
22:38 <mkzelda> that'd be gross
22:42  * mkzelda puts all your tears back together into cup and drinks them...yummy... the tears of unfathomable sadness
22:47 <Lucifer_arma>   ok, so plate tectonics gives you earthquakes and volcanoes, and weather gives you tornadoes, hurricanes, blizzards, and so forth
22:47 <Lucifer_arma> what other natural disasters are there that require some sort of simulated framework?  Do those two cover them all?
22:48 <mkzelda> robot attacks
22:50 <mkzelda> need old glory robot insurance
22:50 <Lucifer_arma> I'd consider that man-made
22:50 <mkzelda> not anymore, the robots make themselves
22:50 <Lucifer_arma> ok, so robot-made disasters are a step up from man-made
22:50 <Lucifer_arma> I'd like to focus on what nature does to you :)
22:50 <luke-jr_work> lol
22:51 <mkzelda> :D
22:52 <mkzelda> warning: persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.
22:52 <Lucifer_arma> too much spongebob for you
22:52 <Lucifer_arma> I think you're getting cabin fever, man
22:52 <mkzelda> thats an old SNL skit
22:53 <mkzelda> http://www.youtube.com/v/xVnkd7ot_pw
22:53 <Lucifer_arma> so, anybody interested, I just put up a framework for documentation for eugenics
22:54 <Lucifer_arma> filling in details with stuff from that big ol' chat we had last night (that you missed, mkzelda)
22:54 <mkzelda> i read it
22:54 <mkzelda> i was tronning and reading it
22:54 <mkzelda> im just not the RTS type
22:55 <mkzelda> i dont have a lot to contribute about war and armies and weapons and such
22:56 <mkzelda> at least, i dont like war rts, i like more sim city kind of play
22:57 <mkzelda> your 'initiative' idea seemed cool
22:57 <mkzelda> i never could click the mouse fast enuf in things like starcraft
22:58 <mkzelda> Lucifer_arma: what about plagues
22:58 <Lucifer_arma> oh yeah
22:58 <mkzelda> not just disease, but infestation of species
22:58 <Lucifer_arma> pestilence
22:58 <mkzelda> a locust swarm takes out your crops
22:59 <mkzelda> or infertility
23:02 <mkzelda> poison is versatile
23:03 <mkzelda> can be used by man or nature
23:03 <mkzelda> things like red tide
23:07 <Lucifer_arma> I thought red tide was a benign phenomenon
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23:15 <mkzelda> maybe its a poor example but it could cause some famine problems
23:18 <luke-jr_work> mkzelda has feminine problems?
23:23 <mkzelda> luke-jr_work has literacy problems
23:23 <mkzelda> if by feminine problems you mean all the girls that throw themselves at me, yeah, i have feminine problems
23:39 <Lucifer_arma> my hair is considered a feminine problem by many
23:40 <Lucifer_arma> hey, y'all will get a chuckle out of this
23:40 <Lucifer_arma> my sister-in-law and her family were down this weekend, and we were at my father-in-law's house for barbecue
23:40 <Lucifer_arma> She's got 2 kids, one that's a few months older than my youngest (so he's 4 right now), and one that's still a baby
23:41 <Lucifer_arma> so I was playing with the 4yo a little bit, then he ran off to see his mommy and tell her about me
23:41 <Lucifer_arma> his mom asks him "Who's that?"
23:41 <Lucifer_arma> the kid answered:  "Jesus"
23:41 <Lucifer_arma> so all weekend he was calling me jesus-uncle-bah-bah
23:41 <Lucifer_arma> finally got him to say uncle dave, but then it was uncle-dave-jesus
23:41 <Lucifer_arma> always jesus in there somewhere
23:42 <Lucifer_arma> (this family used to be mormon, but in the last year or so decided to leave the church, so the kid was previously exposed to some crazy fundamentalism and only recently got sanity brought into his life)
23:42 -!- mkzelda [i=mkzelda@unaffiliated/mkzelda] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
23:42 -!- mkzelda [n=mkzelda@cpe-075-177-148-112.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #armagetron
23:45 <mkzelda> heh
23:45 <mkzelda> my connection is tarded atm, just got a flood of that luci
23:51 <Lucifer_arma> hmmm, a city's work area should be a function of its population size
23:52 <Lucifer_arma> so that at a certain size, the city's work area is everything that a worker can reach in one turn, but below that size, there needs to be a scaling factor
23:52 <Lucifer_arma> so that small cities can only work terrain that is adjacent to the city center
23:53 -!- deja_vu [n=deja_vu@HSI-KBW-085-216-060-101.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit ["leaving"]
23:54 <GodTodd> hrmm
23:54 <GodTodd> !luke
23:54 <BotSub> blah blah jesus blah blah i'm great or smth blah blah RTFM blah blah stfu baka noob blah blah
23:54 <GodTodd> there :)
23:55 <mkzelda> heh
23:55 <luke-jr_work> !alias remove luke
23:55 <BotSub> luke-jr_work: Error: That alias is locked.
23:55 <luke-jr_work> /kick BotSub 
23:56 <Lucifer_arma> !luke
23:56 <BotSub> blah blah jesus blah blah i'm great or smth blah blah RTFM blah blah stfu baka noob blah blah
23:56 -!- mode/#armagetron [+o luke-jr_work] by ChanServ
23:56 <Lucifer_arma> hmmm
23:57 <Lucifer_arma> this looks suspiciously like an abuse of op
23:57 <GodTodd> wasn't someone going to take luke off the op list at one point?
23:57 <mkzelda> blah blah jesus blah blah i'm great or smth blah blah RTFM blah blah stfu baka noob blah blah
23:57 <Lucifer_arma> should I unignore luke to find out whether or not he's just talking stupid trash?
23:58 <GodTodd> he hasn't said anything yet
23:58 <GodTodd> heh
23:58 <Vanhayes> Lucifer_arma, oh ya, I forgot to mention the other thing about Civ 3 I liked: colonies
23:58 <mkzelda> he's not talking
23:58 <mkzelda> but if you really have him ignored i must've looked crazy earlier
23:58 <Lucifer_arma> he's just trying to look mean?
23:58 <GodTodd> pretty much
23:58 <Lucifer_arma> nah, it's getting easy to figure out when someone's talking to luke
23:58 <mkzelda> but its gotta be less funny
23:58 <Lucifer_arma> mostly the level of frustration in their chat can be seen going up
23:59 <Vanhayes> workers can turn themselves into colonies on a resource square, and if a road connects that colony to a city that city gets a resource
23:59 <Lucifer_arma> it's not funny anyway.  The kind of stuff luke does around here constitutes emotional abuse
23:59 <mkzelda> he was mostly just ctcp'ing me
23:59 <@luke-jr_work> GodTodd: remove the "i'm great" part if you're not going to remove the alias please
23:59 <GodTodd> why?
23:59 <@luke-jr_work> cuz I'm not duh
23:59 <Lucifer_arma> Vanhayes: you might want to read the city work page
23:59 <@luke-jr_work> nor have I ever said I am
23:59 <mkzelda> STOP OR ILL USE PING!!!one!one!!
23:59 <Lucifer_arma> the one I just wrote
23:59 <Lucifer_arma> :)

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