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[2020-05-21 01:19:09] <Lucifer_arma> Well, I'm not a fan of the idea of making CG characters in an otherwise live action film just because the original actors have aged too much or died.  I think that's just cheap (not as in cost, as in attitude), and the roles should be recast (which they've done, so far)
[2020-05-21 01:19:57] <Lucifer_arma> And I'd be up for remakes of the original trilogy and a new trilogy to follow if they were actually going to add to the story without adding all the stupid shit you know they'd add
[2020-05-21 01:20:20] <Lucifer_arma> especially if they made a completely new third movie instead of the crap that's there
[2020-05-21 01:20:27] <Lucifer_arma> but that's beside the point :)
[2020-05-21 01:22:21] <Lucifer_arma> I'm curious how photorealistic characters animated with standard animation movement techniques would look, and if that would be preferable to trying to make it look exactly like a live action film would look and failing
[2020-05-21 01:22:55] <Lucifer_arma> and I'm still not sure about the Lion King remake.  I haven't decided to watch it.  Then again, I never intended to watch the original, but I had kids, so not much choice on that.
[2020-05-21 03:48:42] <Z-Man> "Cheap" fits. Photorealistic CGI standins for dead/aged actors send the message that they want to give the audience exactly what they're familiar with instead of something new.
[2020-05-21 03:50:05] <Z-Man> Unrealisticly animated/doctored movements of otherwise human looking characters has been the standard for action scenes in the past decade :) Yeah, it would be interesting to see what happens if you apply that to the rest of a film.
[2020-05-21 07:30:27] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma guru3 check out https://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=38265  Sinewav is suggesting the name "Retrocycles" for Steam. a) I think that is brilliant and b) we should just make him our Art Director.
[2020-05-21 07:33:55] <guru3> Retrocycles is a good idea
[2020-05-21 07:34:02] <guru3> currently all of the top search results are for a font
[2020-05-21 07:34:37] <guru3> and if you dig deeper a game called retrobike or apparently a company renting electric bicycles
[2020-05-21 07:35:05] <guru3> cycles as a keyword on steam doesn't turn up much that's relevant
[2020-05-21 07:36:10] <guru3> there are quite a few games on steam starting with 'retro' already, but retrowave is the only direct pop down on my search box
[2020-05-21 07:37:04] <guru3> of the other games that have 'retro' in the name, a large portion of them do seem to lean into the 80s purple pink synthwave type aesthetic
[2020-05-21 07:37:33] <guru3> which may mean there's an expectation for that sort of vibe
[2020-05-21 07:37:56] <guru3> and given tron legacy's music in particular, I don't see that being entirely irrelevant to us
[2020-05-21 07:38:23] <guru3> my main concern with 'retrocycles' as a name is that we're potentially loosing some name recognition
[2020-05-21 07:52:37] <Z-Man> True, but the main reason to do a steam release is to get in new people anyway; those who know who and what we are don't need to find us on Steam randomly. And if we stay clear of trademarks, "Arma" and "Tron" are right out. We could cal it "GE" :)
[2020-05-21 07:54:34] <Z-Man> (Other reason for Steam: Autoupdates for everyone. So far, only Ubuntu users got convenient ones, everyone else had to use ZeroInstall, which is nice IMHO, but looks like crap on Windows)
[2020-05-21 08:17:01] <Z-Man> GE cold stand for Grid Engines.
[2020-05-21 10:13:34] <guru3> Retrocycles: GE
[2020-05-21 10:14:27] <guru3> annoyingly retrocycles.com appears to be registered
[2020-05-21 10:16:27] <guru3> but retrocycles.net is available
[2020-05-21 10:17:05] <guru3> same deal with gridengines
[2020-05-21 10:17:34] <guru3> I'm OK with rebranding to RetroCycles
[2020-05-21 10:19:26] <guru3> DNS registration query suggests "arm-a-get-rona-d.blog"
[2020-05-21 10:20:19] <guru3> where apparently 'rona' is slang for covid-19 Oo
[2020-05-21 10:45:49] <-- Armanelgtron has quit (No Ping reply in 210 seconds.)
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[2020-05-21 10:46:43] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-21 10:46:43] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-21 10:47:01] -!- verne.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-21 10:47:02] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
[2020-05-21 12:42:58] <luke-jr> Z-Man: uh, pretty sure nobody can trademark "Arma"
[2020-05-21 12:43:09] <luke-jr> especially not as "Armage[ddon]"
[2020-05-21 12:44:30] <luke-jr> is Steam even GPL-compatible, though?
[2020-05-21 15:10:56] <Z-Man> luke-jr: Arma, Arma 2 and Arma 3 is a game series by Bohemia Interactive. Trandemarked. I did find in some trademark database that they have a patchy record of enforcing it, unlike Nintendo and Disney, but still.
[2020-05-21 15:12:24] <Z-Man> Steam, the way we're using it, is just a file delivery service. I give some steam service a directory, say "I want that directory verbatim on the users' machines", and Steam makes it happen.
[2020-05-21 15:13:17] <Z-Man> For automation, I have to interact with a proprietary program to do so. But in theory, I could just as well upload a zip into their web interface.
[2020-05-21 15:15:39] <Z-Man> So unless you hold the opinion that the mere contact between GPL and non-GPL-compatible software is forbidden, it is GPL compatible.
[2020-05-21 15:17:15] <Z-Man> Oh, on Linux, Steam is also a "runtime" with a lot of common libraries already preinstalled. SDL and libxml2 are among them. Those are of course also compatible.
[2020-05-21 15:18:39] <Z-Man> Things get interesting should we want to support easy Steam login. Then you need an authentication token, and that you only get from a proprietary library.
[2020-05-21 15:18:58] <Z-Man> The way I would use that:
[2020-05-21 15:19:35] <Z-Man> 1. Define a generic interface by which Armagetron can get an authentication token from some external entity, say a dynamically loaded library.
[2020-05-21 15:19:58] <Z-Man> 2. Use that to implement OAuth authentication in one instance.
[2020-05-21 15:20:14] <Z-Man> 3. Bundle that implementation with every installation.
[2020-05-21 15:20:40] <Z-Man> 4. Use the intefrace to implement Steam auth token retrieval. Do not bundle that.
[2020-05-21 15:21:12] <Z-Man> 5. Offer the steam authentication plugin as DLC on steam.
[2020-05-21 15:21:28] <Z-Man> The interface would need to be LGPL at least, of course.
[2020-05-21 15:21:51] <Z-Man> That way, we do not distribute any individual product that is in violation of the GPL.
[2020-05-21 15:22:54] <Z-Man> Now, on the users' machines, the two bits get combined, and even automatically, buit we're not distributing that result, and without distribution, you can still do with a GPLed product whatever you want.
[2020-05-21 15:25:01] <Z-Man> I'm not entirely sure whether I'd want to do any of that. OAuth alone would be enough to let Steam users log in with their Steam account, they'd just have to log in on an external web browser that pops up. I think Steam supports OAuth or something similar.
[2020-05-21 15:41:46] <luke-jr> Z-Man: Armage[ddon] is clearly distinct
[2020-05-21 15:42:54] <Z-Man> Yes, but not Armacycles, or even ArmaCycles as it was first spelled, the evasive name first picked.
[2020-05-21 15:43:26] <Z-Man> There, the Armageddon origin is not recognizable any more.
[2020-05-21 15:56:56] <luke-jr> ah
[2020-05-21 16:04:17] <Z-Man> OH guru3 we definitely do not want to be GET RONA, then
[2020-05-21 16:04:49] <Z-Man> Great, now I won't be able to get that out of my head.
[2020-05-21 21:05:48] <Lucifer_arma> How about ArmaLite Cycles?
[2020-05-21 21:06:42] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: your workaround doesn't work, actually.  The end-user winds up violating the GPL.  That wouldn't stop them from using the software, but it would basically say "You can't distribute it anymore"
[2020-05-21 21:06:48] <Lucifer_arma> Not that *anybody* is going to enforce it like that
[2020-05-21 21:06:56] <Lucifer_arma> the bigger concern is social, though.
[2020-05-21 21:07:39] <Lucifer_arma> Audacity had this problem when they wanted to make VCL plugins for Windows and use LADSPA for linux.  They ended up becoming the first app ever to implement the LADSPA api for Windows and Mac OS X (I think Macs also used VCL)
[2020-05-21 21:07:44] <Lucifer_arma> (or they had their own)
[2020-05-21 21:08:26] <Lucifer_arma> anyway, the GPL library they were using, I think it was called libsamplerate, was the fastest on-the-fly resampling code you could get, and they relied heavily on it
[2020-05-21 21:09:15] <Lucifer_arma> When they wrote the LADSPA -> VCL bridge (which, as a sidenote, led them down the path of helping design the LADSPA gui api), the creator of libsamplerate shit his pants
[2020-05-21 21:10:13] <Lucifer_arma> he was talking about revoking the license for Audacity developers because they were linking his GPL library to a series of proprietary plugins (the VCL plugins), and they were dodging responsibility for it by making the end-users do the dirty work
[2020-05-21 21:10:43] <Lucifer_arma> now, he couldn't revoke the GPL for audacity developers, of course, but he could write in an exception for new releases
[2020-05-21 21:11:30] <Lucifer_arma> anyway, the audacity project made the decision not to stir the pot, wrote their own resampling code, and just took the performance hit not using libsamplerate gave them
[2020-05-21 21:11:47] <Lucifer_arma> the libsamplerate guy apologized for the inconvenience he put them through, and no bridges were burned :)
[2020-05-21 21:12:18] <Lucifer_arma> The point of the long-winded story is basically that even though we could write the auth bridge to authenticate with steam, we shouldn't
[2020-05-21 21:12:46] <Lucifer_arma> now, if we can write a steam auth server that's open source, or get steam to release enough of the auth server in a GPL-compatible license that we can use it, then we can do it
[2020-05-21 21:13:03] <Lucifer_arma> ok, that's what's based on what you said
[2020-05-21 21:13:54] <Lucifer_arma> now then, it's when we link to libraries that the license really matters.  Do we have to link to any steam libraries in order to implement steam auth?
[2020-05-21 21:14:46] <Lucifer_arma> i think that also includes using google protobuf definition files.  If they provide them for free, but don't give a GPL-compatible license, then we'd have to do the cleanroom separation, where someone (probably me) reads the definition files and writes a specification for the packets
[2020-05-21 21:14:57] <Lucifer_arma> and then someone else implements the specification
[2020-05-21 21:15:04] <Lucifer_arma> pain in the ass
[2020-05-21 21:15:39] <Lucifer_arma> we could also simply take the interpretation that steam is a platform, not a distribution system, which puts it on the level of operating system, allowing us to link to any steam library we need to
[2020-05-21 21:15:58] <Lucifer_arma> it would be easier to take that interpretation if they'd release their gaming console, of course
[2020-05-21 21:16:12] <Lucifer_arma> and, it goes without saying
[2020-05-21 21:16:33] <Lucifer_arma> (that any code that links to steam libraries wouldn't be allowed in the regular releases)
[2020-05-21 21:17:12] <Lucifer_arma> then the game can only require steam code/libraries when it's being played through the steam platform.
[2020-05-21 21:17:41] <Lucifer_arma> that would mean that the binaries we distribute wouldn't be able to support steam auth, and if people wanted to use steam auth, then they'd be required to download the steam binary
[2020-05-21 21:17:48] <Lucifer_arma> hm.  I think that interacts poorly with the GPL.
[2020-05-21 21:19:44] <Lucifer_arma> but if we interpret steam as simply a distribution system, then it really doesn't matter if the end-user has to use a proprietary client to download it.  That gets a bit silly.
[2020-05-21 21:20:05] <Lucifer_arma> like, seriously, do you require all the engineering designs for the USPS trucks because you sent someone a CD with armagetron on it?
[2020-05-21 21:21:02] <Lucifer_arma> what matters then is the same as everywhere else we distribute: we don't link to non-compatible code, and the end-user should be able to keep the game if the steam client is removed/disabled, and should be able to play it uninhibited at all times
[2020-05-21 21:21:29] <Lucifer_arma> as for names, please don't go with ArmaLite Cycles, that's an obvious joke that may only be obvious to a subset of americans
[2020-05-21 21:29:40] <Lucifer_arma> also, Z-Man: haven't we made sinewav our art director several times and he just keeps saying no?
[2020-05-21 21:33:22] <Lucifer_arma> and man have I been unproductive
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