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[2020-05-02 16:27:33] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-02 16:27:33] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-02 16:27:34] -!- orwell.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-02 16:27:34] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-04 20:47:16] <Lucifer_arma> ]math calc 1800/60
[2020-05-04 20:47:17] <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: 30
[2020-05-04 20:47:18] <Lucifer_arma> I'm dumb
[2020-05-04 20:48:33] <Lucifer_arma> so, given an engine rotating 30 times per second, if I get an input only for each rotation, not for actual angular velocity, will I get the inputs quickly/often enough to be able to adjust the fuel injector time?
[2020-05-04 20:50:14] <Lucifer_arma> I'm going with yes, because it's a generator, and supposed to be kept at a particular speed (which is 1800 rpm)
[2020-05-04 20:50:59] <Lucifer_arma> next question:  Can I calculate the fuel/air mixture using only the reactive calculations coming from an O2 sensor, or should I go ahead and add a manifold pressure sensor and manifold air temperature sensor?
[2020-05-04 20:51:22] <Lucifer_arma> ]ping
[2020-05-04 20:51:23] <ljrbot> pong
[2020-05-04 20:53:09] <Lucifer_arma> wait, duh, it's a generator!  It outputs a 60hz sinewav.  I could use the instaneous voltage measurement to determine the engine position.
[2020-05-04 20:54:15] <Lucifer_arma> I just need a sensor that can take that measurement quickly
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[2020-05-05 07:10:46] <guru3> Hmm, the frequency of the generated AC will also dip under generator load, so using the AC frequency to control the engine may have unintended consequences
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[2020-05-05 20:09:59] <Lucifer_arma> guru3: But detecting those dips is kinda the point
[2020-05-05 20:10:47] <Lucifer_arma> the electrical load on the generator gets translated to mechanical load through the alternator, so it is necessary when the electrical load increases to also throttle up to get the frequency back in line
[2020-05-05 20:11:39] <Lucifer_arma> likewise, when the electrical load drops, like when the a/c cycles off, at the current throttle position the engine will start to rev up, increasing the frequency of the generated AC
[2020-05-05 20:11:43] <Lucifer_arma> so I need to detect *that* and slow it down
[2020-05-05 20:11:43] <Lucifer_arma> ]ping
[2020-05-05 20:11:43] <ljrbot> pong
[2020-05-05 20:13:03] <Lucifer_arma> so, the generator in question generates 60hz AC at 1800rpm.  So it generates one period every 30 turns of the crankshaft
[2020-05-05 20:13:11] <Lucifer_arma> right?  I'm doing the math right?
[2020-05-05 20:13:17] <Lucifer_arma> ]math calc 1800/60
[2020-05-05 20:13:18] <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: 30
[2020-05-05 20:14:45] <Lucifer_arma> so if I chop up the period into 30 equally spaced slices, I can get the crankshaft at TDC.  So the angle of the AC wave has a correspondence to the crankshaft angle.
[2020-05-05 20:14:59] <Lucifer_arma> I need the crankshaft angle.  :)
[2020-05-05 20:15:55] <Lucifer_arma> The generator uses a wasted spark configuration, and is a two cylinder.  So when cylinder 1 is at TDC-compression, cylinder 2 is at TDC-intake.  Both plugs fire, and cylinder one combusts, and cylinder two does nothing (but proceeds to start the intake stroke)
[2020-05-05 20:16:23] <Lucifer_arma> 360 degrees later, the two are opposite.  #1 is at TDC-intake and #2 is at TDC-compression.
[2020-05-05 20:17:08] <Lucifer_arma> Logically, then, I can use one fuel injector in the throttle body, rather than two separate fuel injectors, and I can use the wasted spark idea with the fuel injector.  By opening it at the same crankshaft angle every time, I will inject the correct amount of fuel into the manifold.
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[2020-05-05 20:18:17] <Lucifer_arma> So what I'm ultimately trying to calculate is when to open to fuel injector, and for how long to keep it open
[2020-05-05 20:19:02] <Lucifer_arma> And I'm looking at ways to measure the position of the crankshaft, because that tells me where the pistons are :)
[2020-05-05 20:19:48] <Lucifer_arma> I dug around and found a guy who "fixed" his generator's governor by simply letting it fail and putting an arduino in there.  He used a laser sensor attached to the fan, which is driven by the crankshaft directly
[2020-05-05 20:20:31] <Lucifer_arma> The governor on the generator uses one of several ways to determine engine load mechanically and then opens/closes the throttle accordingly
[2020-05-05 20:21:14] <Lucifer_arma> So, I could use the same sort of laser sensor he used to get engine speed, but I'd have to do something physically to the fan to make one particular blade stand out, ideally the one that givens me TDC
[2020-05-05 20:21:39] <Lucifer_arma> that eliminates all the circuitry involved, anyway
[2020-05-05 20:22:21] <Lucifer_arma> so down the road, I'm looking at yanking the governor completely.  The engine speeds on a generator can be regulated using the fuel/air mixture.  The reason the throttle is used is because it's carburated.
[2020-05-05 20:22:58] <Lucifer_arma> But I want to move to an inverter model, where the generator revs between 1000 rpm (low, possibly even 800 rpm) up to about 3000 rpm.
[2020-05-05 20:23:26] <Lucifer_arma> That would boost the power output significantly, maybe turning a 4kw generator into a 7kw generator.
[2020-05-05 20:23:41] <Lucifer_arma> But you see what's happening.  The AC output will range in both voltage and frequency.
[2020-05-05 20:24:49] <Lucifer_arma> So then I have to convert the output to a solid 15VDC, slap some schottkey diodes on the output (which would bring the voltage down to 14.something, which is fine), and feed it into a power inverter to get it back to a solid 120VAC 60hz signal
[2020-05-05 20:25:26] <Lucifer_arma> typically, the power losses in the inverter are more than offset by the gains in efficiency by being able to cycle up/down the generator to generate only the amount of power needed
[2020-05-05 20:26:06] <Lucifer_arma> so all of this leads to the questions that matter :)
[2020-05-05 20:27:02] <Lucifer_arma> 1.  If I convert to fuel injection now, but run it as designed, how much fuel efficiency will I gain?  This generator, by being a 4-pole generator and running at 1800rpm is already at/near its peak efficiency for a carburated system.
[2020-05-05 20:27:51] <Lucifer_arma> 2.  Will it be worth the effort/money to convert it to an inverted system?  I'd need power inverters starting in the 3-4k range, and then I'd need to stack inverters up to 8k to ensure that I can use all the power
[2020-05-05 20:29:00] <Lucifer_arma> The rest of the power system matters, too, though.  There will be a large battery bank, preferably capable of running one AC unit for 10 hours (about 1.5kwh battery bank).  The batteries will be/are 12VDC, because that's what the rest of the power system uses already
[2020-05-05 20:30:15] <Lucifer_arma> Solar panels for RVs are generally sold at 100W/panel, and there's enough room on the roof to fit 5-7 of those.  In the winter, in a place like Texas, I could easily go days without turning on the generator
[2020-05-05 20:31:21] <Lucifer_arma> And those are just permanently mounted panels.  If I'm boondocking, I could also have a storage bay with another 4-6 panels tucked away that I can take out and spread out.
[2020-05-05 20:32:03] <Lucifer_arma> So the advantage to moving to an inverter style generator is actually in the battery charging system, because I'd have to build a charging system that integrates the generator and solar panels and the alternator from the RV engine
[2020-05-05 20:32:43] <Lucifer_arma> as for what I'm going to do right now, I still need to find the slideout battery trays.  I thought I'd determined they were in the generator bay, but then I put an actual generator in it and there's no room for batteries in there
[2020-05-05 20:33:24] <Lucifer_arma> and I need to put the carburator back on the generator, and find out in the process if it'll fit in the bay (I had to remove it because it made the generator too tall to slide through the opening
[2020-05-05 20:33:25] <Lucifer_arma> )
[2020-05-05 20:33:43] <Lucifer_arma> So, RVs aren't just for old people.  They're also for nerds.
[2020-05-05 20:36:36] <Lucifer_arma> shit, I can't do rpm/hz.  Duh.
[2020-05-05 20:38:03] <Lucifer_arma> ]math calc 1800/60
[2020-05-05 20:38:04] <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: 30
[2020-05-05 20:38:51] <Lucifer_arma> so that's 30 rotations per second
[2020-05-05 20:39:39] <Lucifer_arma> so one rotation of the crankshaft results in two periods of the AC generated
[2020-05-05 20:43:26] <Lucifer_arma> so for 180 degrees of rotation on the crankshaft, I get one period of the AC wave form.  So measuring the voltage doesn't give me one crankshaft position, it gives me two.
[2020-05-05 20:45:39] <Lucifer_arma> the fan sensor is the better choice, when looking at it like that.  It's technically less accurate, but easier to work with.
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[2020-05-06 04:24:50] <guru3> The fan sensor sounds less prone to failure, and provides a decoupling point between your energy load and generator load if needed. Like in the case of a dead short maybe?
[2020-05-06 04:27:05] <guru3> This stuff, both the motor and AC power, is stuff I don't know a lot about. I'd worry about using the AC cycle to determine crankshaft position because power factor/capacitive load/inductive load type issues as well that might result in your sinewave becoming slightly offset due to feedback from appliances?
[2020-05-06 04:29:20] <guru3> The fan sensor, combined with a current sensor and voltage sensor gets you all of the same information to control engine speed without worrying about the exact AC system. You could also add in temperature sensors to further optimise fuel consumption. Add in a CO2/NO2 sensor at the exhaust as well for further feedback. And I just realised that I've more or less described an ECU.
[2020-05-06 04:29:58] <guru3> What can I say, those bits sound like a nice doable electronics project with my skillset while dodging a lot of scary high-voltage AC.
[2020-05-06 04:31:45] <guru3> The switch to DC to work with a battery and solar system feels like a sound idea. Batteries will want to charge at a constant load so you can run the engine more efficiently charging than directly powering devices.
[2020-05-06 04:32:32] <guru3> Ideally you'd have enough batteries in parallel to handle any spikes in load and never need to run the generator for anything other than charging.
[2020-05-06 04:32:59] <guru3> It also becomes a more scaleable system as I think you've suggested, adding in solar panels, more batteries, and more inverters, as needed.
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[2020-05-06 19:45:19] <Lucifer_arma> basically, yeah.  The most basic fuel injection sensors needed are a throttle position sensor, intake air pressure and intake air temperature.  You can add an O2 sensor to the exhaust to tighten up the mixture a bit.
[2020-05-06 19:46:07] <Lucifer_arma> I found a project where someone designed their own MPPT system with an arduino because it was pennies on the dollar compared to buying one, and obviously more flexible
[2020-05-06 19:46:31] <Lucifer_arma> that gives me the ability to isolate each battery, which in turn means I don't have to worry too much about matching battery types.
[2020-05-06 19:47:24] <Lucifer_arma> What I'm saying is, I can use a car-starting battery, which is designed to deliver a huge amount of power in a short period of time (500-700 amps) to handle power surges from turning on appliances and build the rest of the system around simply running them
[2020-05-06 19:48:37] <Lucifer_arma> adding an actual power distribution module controlled by an arduino (or possibly a raspi, depending on what I need) with isolated batteries allows me to take batteries out of the power mix to charge them and put them back in when fully charged
[2020-05-06 19:49:14] <Lucifer_arma> what I have now is a simple circuit I picked up off amazon that monitors the battery voltage and cuts off the battery when it drops too low (adjustable) and turns it back on when it gets up to a certain level
[2020-05-06 19:49:49] <Lucifer_arma> I have diodes coming that'll allow me to ensure the flow of electricity happens exactly right, with charging power coming through a specific line and using power going through another
[2020-05-06 19:50:31] <Lucifer_arma> so the batteries I'm buying are 12VDC, of course, 33AH at 10 hours.
[2020-05-06 19:50:36] <Lucifer_arma> ]math calc 12 * 33
[2020-05-06 19:50:37] <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: 396
[2020-05-06 19:51:09] <Lucifer_arma> so about 400W.  To reach the same power levels as the generator, I'd need 10 of them, obviously
[2020-05-06 19:51:28] <Lucifer_arma> that's for the max generator power level.  But then you need the power factor for the inverter, which is typically around .85
[2020-05-06 19:51:37] <Lucifer_arma> ]math calc 396 * .85
[2020-05-06 19:51:38] <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: 336.6
[2020-05-06 19:51:50] <Lucifer_arma> probably better to round that down to 325 watts
[2020-05-06 19:51:56] <Lucifer_arma> ]math calc 4000/325
[2020-05-06 19:51:57] <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: 12.3076923077
[2020-05-06 19:52:01] <Lucifer_arma> so about 12 batteries
[2020-05-06 19:52:28] <Lucifer_arma> There's room for a shitload of batteries, more than 12, in the battery bay.
[2020-05-06 19:52:34] <Lucifer_arma> so this is doable, right?  ;)
[2020-05-06 19:53:33] <Lucifer_arma> also, it's worth pointing out that I've spent a lot of time as an automotive technician, so the engine parts of the project are absolutely no problem for me.  It's the electrical stuff that I'm having to learn brand new.
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[2020-05-06 21:45:05] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-06 21:45:05] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-06 21:45:07] -!- beckett.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-06 21:45:07] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-07 05:07:19] <guru3> The limiting factor for how much your battery can handle isn't so much the capacity in amp-hours, but it's discharge current.
[2020-05-07 05:08:26] <guru3> If your batteries are 33Ah in capacity and have a 1C discharge current, they will supply at most 33A of current, which at 12V gives you 396W for one hour.
[2020-05-07 05:09:05] <guru3> 12 batteries would then give you your 4000W for one hour.
[2020-05-07 05:09:58] <guru3> But discharge current depends on the battery chemistry. Lithium-Polymer (LiPo) batteries tend to have insanely high discharge currents, around 30C. That, and their light weight, are why they're so popular with drones, RC cars, etc.
[2020-05-07 05:11:27] <guru3> So the upshot is you may need more batteries unless "33AH at 10 hours" was a typo, and you meant 33A at 10 hours, for a 330Ah battery capacity.
[2020-05-07 05:11:56] <guru3> But if you're not drawing peak current from each battery, then of course they will last longer.
[2020-05-07 05:12:32] <guru3> Another factor to consider is that the more current you draw from a battery, the more internal resistance (which is why most battery chemistries don't discharge faster than 1C), and so they heat up more reducing the life of the battery.
[2020-05-07 05:13:06] <guru3> Discharging from 10 batteries at 0.2C is much better than discharging from 5 batteries at 1C, because you're spreading out that internal resistance and heat generation.
[2020-05-07 05:13:40] <guru3> The point I was getting to mentioning the heat generation is that your batteries may need cooling when charging or discharging rapidly.
[2020-05-07 05:14:24] <guru3> You should also be aware of the risks of over-charging batteries. LiPos tend to explode I believe, NiMh outgasses hydrogren (which is explosive!) and I think Lead Acid batteries outgas something equally nasty.
[2020-05-07 05:15:30] <guru3> With regards to charging the batteries, seperating them from the circuit while charging is pretty much mandatory, and you'll need to manage the levels of the batteries to some extent otherwise you're increasing the chances of blowing up your diodes as they overheat from holding back the power.
[2020-05-07 05:16:22] <guru3> Lead Acid and NiMh batteries can be "dumb" charged at a constant current until their voltages raise, but any Lithium derived battery will need to have a charging circuit to control current to the battery.
[2020-05-07 05:17:32] <guru3> Going along with all this high power stuff, make sure your wire gauges are all big enough for more than the peak current. The gauge will need to be bigger as length of the wire run increases. (Hurray another type of internal resistance!)
[2020-05-07 05:19:00] <guru3> And in a scenario like this I'd guess that all of the electrical switching will need to be relay based, which will add in delays.
[2020-05-07 05:19:15] <guru3> I'd be super wary of high current through anything solid state.
[2020-05-07 18:27:59] <Lucifer_arma> I'm on it.  As for cooling, the battery bay is an open-air bay, but there's no fan.  It was designed to take two 8D batteries, and being built in 1987, those were flooded lead acid batteries.
[2020-05-07 18:28:55] <Lucifer_arma> I'm putting AGM lead acid batteries in there, which have lower discharge capacity (current), but longer total discharge time.  The 33Ah @ 10 hours is basically the same as any other Ah statement on batteries, just that the @ 10 hours is added because industry standard is @ 20 hours
[2020-05-07 18:29:29] <Lucifer_arma> so for a battery that simply says something like 10Ah, or 1000mAh, that's @ 20 hours if it's not otherwise stated
[2020-05-07 18:30:13] <Lucifer_arma> the rule of thumb, near as I can tell, is that it means "can draw [these] amps for [this long]" and then it's 100% discharged.
[2020-05-07 18:31:05] <Lucifer_arma> Lead Acid batteries outgas hydrogen when charging.  At least, the flooded cell batteries used in cars do, but I think it's safe to assume AGM batteries outgas hydrogen as well
[2020-05-07 18:31:43] <Lucifer_arma> For overdischarge protection, I've got this:
[2020-05-07 18:32:16] <Lucifer_arma> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07N4HJCD5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
[2020-05-07 18:33:08] <Lucifer_arma> the load I'll be connecting it to is a 20amp standard automotive relay, normally off.  That relay, in turn, is what'll allow the flow from the battery into the power system
[2020-05-07 18:34:03] <Lucifer_arma> These are the diodes:
[2020-05-07 18:34:05] <Lucifer_arma> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NS63XJH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
[2020-05-07 18:35:10] <Lucifer_arma> For now, without a charging controller, I'll probably just hook up a few diodes per battery in parallel and let the system flood charge, like it was designed to do
[2020-05-07 18:35:18] <Lucifer_arma> you know, being from 1987 and all
[2020-05-07 18:36:22] <Lucifer_arma> the car battery I'll be adding to the system is already designed that way, and I won't be putting the overdischarge protection stuff on it because it's designed for this kind of use cycle, sorta
[2020-05-07 18:38:15] <Lucifer_arma> the battery bay connects to the power system with giant cables, like 0/2 gauge or something like that, so my wires won't be going longer than one or two feet
[2020-05-07 18:39:02] <Lucifer_arma> I think I settled at 16 gauge, or something.  I looked for 15amp capacity and rounded up to 20amp.  If I need more, I'll either buy bigger gauge wires or wire more of these in parallel
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[2020-05-08 04:50:47] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-08 04:50:47] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-08 04:51:06] -!- card.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-08 04:51:06] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
[2020-05-08 05:00:47] <guru3> I hadn't heard about the 20 hours standard before, but that's interesting.
[2020-05-08 05:01:36] <guru3> https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-basics.html#4 says that 10Ah at 10H means that you're guaranteed 10Ah total over 10H, but if you draw 10A it will last on the order of 1 hour.
[2020-05-08 05:06:22] <guru3> I'm a little wary of your relay package. The relay itself rated for 10A is maybe OK, althought that seems a bit low for what could be a theoretical peak (4000W/12V = 300A over 12 batteries = 25A per battery), but I'm more worried about those screw terminals the PCB track thickness.
[2020-05-08 05:10:30] <guru3> It's impossible to tell exactly what model screw terminals have been used, but they could be under-rated for even 10A. The widths of the tracks the current takes look OK, but I'm not sure about the size of the pads or the separation/sopacing between the tracks. That is, things look close enough to potentially spark-gap in an over-current situation.
[2020-05-08 05:10:48] <guru3> Maybe I'm just being super conservative, I get more and more electrically conservative as the current goes up.
[2020-05-08 05:14:28] <guru3> If 15A is your max expected current draw that diodes are probably fine, but what's your worst case current draw? Based on what you said about 4000W of inverter, with 12 batteries I worked out 25A just before, but it's totally possible I've misunderstood or made a mistake somewhere. I'm not this type of engineer afterall.
[2020-05-08 21:35:33] <Lucifer_arma> I just checked, the relays are rated at 40 amps at 14VDC
[2020-05-08 21:42:33] <Lucifer_arma> I don't know how much current it takes to activate them, but I'm willing to sacrifice one of these boards to find out if they can handle it :)
[2020-05-08 21:44:09] <Lucifer_arma> You're also looking at the wrong relay.  I'm not passing power current through those two boards.  Instead, the load they're controlling is a separate relay that I didn't link here.
[2020-05-08 21:44:22] <Lucifer_arma> That separate relay is the one rated at 40 amps 14VDC.
[2020-05-08 21:44:54] <Lucifer_arma> It does mean there'll be a constant draw, but I've been assured by the seller on amazon (somehow, I forget how) that the constant draw is relatively low.
[2020-05-08 21:46:05] <Lucifer_arma> and right now I don't have the inverter.  These batteries, right now, will only be powering the dc power system, which is basically lights and the water pump
[2020-05-08 21:47:27] <Lucifer_arma> I'm not even looking at buying the inverter for awhile, because I need to get the generator up and running as designed, see if it can power both ACs, and if it can't get them both started, *then* I'm looking at an inverter for the car battery in the array, so that it can provide the surge needed to turn on the second ac unit
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[2020-05-08 22:13:46] <Lucifer_arma> but we can probably move into the rv safely with only one working AC unit, if the reason there's only one is because the generator doesn't put out enough power for the second one to turn on
[2020-05-08 22:14:30] <Lucifer_arma> AC units for RVs run in the range of like 1500W to 1800W, which means my 4kw generator can power both, after they've been started, and assuming that everytime the compressor turns on, there's a power source for the surge needed
[2020-05-08 22:15:11] <Lucifer_arma> the RV initially came with a 7kw generator, which was capable of powering the ACs, the microwave, and taking over the entire DC system, so I don't think it's unreasonable to hope that a 4kw generator can at least power the ACs
[2020-05-08 22:15:27] <Lucifer_arma> the fridge, too, don't forget about the fridge :)
[2020-05-08 22:16:07] <Lucifer_arma> so, right now the focus is on building up the battery array and the smart charging/management system
[2020-05-08 22:16:36] <Lucifer_arma> the next big step after that is going to be adding a solar array, and possibly some wind turbines
[2020-05-08 22:16:53] <Lucifer_arma> it's after all of that that I start seriously looking at the conversion for the generator
[2020-05-08 22:17:25] <Lucifer_arma> so, the talk about fuel injecting the generator right now is actually geared towards getting it running, and just that.  The generator bay isn't physically tall enough to accomodate the carburator.
[2020-05-08 22:18:16] <Lucifer_arma> But if I built a custom throttle body for it, I could make it fit.  :)  Or, I have to modify the generator bay, which is most likely what I'm going to do.  Just make it taller to accomodate the generator I found, then worry about other modifications later, after it's running and I can determine how many appliances it will pwoer

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[2020-05-09 15:33:03] <guru3> Ah OK. Sounds like you've got things well in hand.
[2020-05-09 15:33:56] <guru3> Building things up piece by piece is a sensible plan.
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[2020-05-10 11:41:21] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-10 11:41:21] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-10 11:41:23] -!- tepper.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-10 11:41:23] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-10 16:54:51] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-10 16:54:51] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-12 10:17:25] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-12 10:17:25] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-12 10:17:27] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-13 18:38:54] <Lucifer_arma> guru3: well, the first build worked fine.  The relay kicks on and power flows fine.  Only problem, there's no way to turn it off, other than disconnecting from the battery.
[2020-05-13 18:38:56] <Lucifer_arma> Oops.
[2020-05-13 18:39:18] <Lucifer_arma> I found a decent-looking 4pst switch on amazon, so I'll get that soon and use it to allow the batteries to get turned off :)
[2020-05-13 19:15:29] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1094 Merge in revision 1476 of lp:armagetronad/0.2.8 : Replace au...
[2020-05-13 20:45:46] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1096 Merge in revisions 1468 and 1471 from lp:armagetronad/0.2.8 || [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1095 Add SET_ZONE_COORD for setting the position directly (versus...
[2020-05-13 21:15:53] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1097 Document SET_ZONE_COORD and SET_ZONE_POSITION
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[2020-05-13 22:16:03] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1098 Use Kyle's CanRespawn for RESPAWN_ALL and RESPAWN_TIME, so t...
[2020-05-13 23:46:18] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1099 Reuse delay command object in intervals and prevent segfault...

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[2020-05-14 00:46:29] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1100 Have TELEPORT show usage and allow RESPAWN to auto select a ...
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[2020-05-14 03:16:53] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1101 Edit CYCLE_ZONES_AVOID to try to detect if bot is facing zon...
[2020-05-14 03:30:20] <guru3> ><
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[2020-05-14 03:46:58] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1102 Manual merges are fun, ya know? (line 3152 of r1476 in lp:a...
[2020-05-14 05:47:17] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1103 Don't bother spawning shots of 0 radius but still emit the Z...
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[2020-05-14 11:38:20] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-14 11:38:20] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-14 11:43:51] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-14 11:43:51] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-14 13:18:34] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1537 Made language update.py file Phython 3 compatible...
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[2020-05-14 14:18:49] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-14 15:19:24] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-14 16:19:04] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1540 Avoid error message during make dist... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1539 Generate ChangeLog and fingerprint from git... || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1538 Clean stray source control files
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[2020-05-14 18:29:17] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-14 21:19:59] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1104 Use Direction instead of MapDirection (???) in PLAYER_GRIDPO...
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[2020-05-16 10:54:22] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-16 11:17:36] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-16 11:17:38] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-17 12:01:49] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-17 12:01:49] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-17 12:01:51] -!- barjavel.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-17 12:01:51] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-17 12:23:09] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-17 12:23:09] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-17 12:23:10] -!- weber.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-17 12:23:10] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-18 00:24:04] <Lucifer_arma> Ok, is it wrong to use photorealistic animated characters in a live action movie?  Would it be wrong to make a complete photorealistic animated movie?
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[2020-05-18 03:13:13] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-18 03:13:13] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-18 03:13:15] -!- beckett.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-18 03:13:15] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-18 13:25:05] <Z-Man> THERE IS NO WRONG IN ART
[2020-05-18 13:26:23] <Z-Man> Well, apart from when your art involves real cruelty, obv.
[2020-05-18 18:27:31] <Lucifer_arma> So, Z-Man, you're completely ok with, say, using an animated Carrie Fisher to make a new Star Wars movie?
[2020-05-18 18:29:18] <Z-Man> No, but not because it's wrong. The CGI replacements in Rogue One simply were awful.
[2020-05-18 18:32:23] <Z-Man> Morally, it's not worse to use a CG replacement than an impersonator.
[2020-05-18 18:33:21] <Z-Man> Anyway, good night! I need more sleep :(
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[2020-05-18 19:22:55] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-18 19:22:55] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-18 23:44:16] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-18 23:44:16] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-19 05:45:29] <Z-Man> Oh, heard a new one: Vaccinations are to blame for homeopathy not working.
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[2020-05-19 19:26:34] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-19 19:26:34] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-20 01:22:16] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: I'm ok with it in general, but I'm not sure about using it to replace recently deceased actors.
[2020-05-20 01:24:45] <Lucifer_arma> I'm ok if the actor died during production, and they need to finish the production.  It's ethically the same as using a body double and a voice actor, like they did for Rise of Skywalker.
[2020-05-20 01:25:21] <Lucifer_arma> And I'm ok with the use of Tarkin for Rogue One, even though the actor's been dead for decades.
[2020-05-20 01:26:07] <Lucifer_arma> But the specific idea I'm not sure about is this:  Using a young Solo, Leia, etc, and remaking the original trilogy and continuing from there as a photorealistic animated flick.
[2020-05-20 01:26:51] <Lucifer_arma> series, I mean, of course.
[2020-05-20 01:28:10] <Lucifer_arma> But I think if they make a photorealistic, but still identifiably cartoony style of animation, like a more advanced version of what's in Borderlands, I think that would make a nice style to use in place of turning animated shows into live action films
[2020-05-20 01:29:01] <Lucifer_arma> upgrade the animation style instead of hiring live actors, use voice actors instead, etc.  Like, if Pixar had done the first big screen Transformers, would anyone have complained that it wasn't live action?
[2020-05-20 01:29:41] <Lucifer_arma> But then what happens when the photorealistic animation also eliminates the uncanny valley and it's possible to make videos that are 100% animated and completely indistinguishable from live action?
[2020-05-20 01:31:13] <Lucifer_arma> Does it become ok to make "live action" movies without real actors?
[2020-05-20 01:31:51] <Lucifer_arma> It's the same as the question some people are already asking that's the other way: Can you use a cast entirely made out of motion capture actors to make an animated flick like Toy Story?
[2020-05-20 01:32:50] <Lucifer_arma> Anyway, it's good to hear that some crackpots are admitting that homeopathy doesn't work.  I'm still trying to look at the positives.  :)
[2020-05-20 01:45:10] <Lucifer_arma> Also, in good-news-thats-about-to-change, Travis county has "flattened the curve".  Hospitalizations, new cases, and new deaths have all leveled out.
[2020-05-20 01:46:27] <Lucifer_arma> of course, our idiot governor is still talking about opening more of the state, and it really doesn't help that he lives in Travis county, which is handling it pretty well.  Houston and Dallas are getting hit pretty hard, and Texas as a whole is still increasing
[2020-05-20 01:46:49] <Lucifer_arma> So we've flattened the curve locally, but it probably won't last without the governor's support and the rest of the state.  :(
[2020-05-20 01:47:18] <Lucifer_arma> (in case anybody missed it, Austin is in Travis county, so this is where I live)
[2020-05-20 14:44:17] <Z-Man> > But the specific idea I'm not sure about is this:  Using a young Solo, Leia, etc, and remaking the original trilogy and continuing from there as a photorealistic animated flick.
[2020-05-20 14:45:22] <Z-Man> I would not watch anything involving purely the old movie's characters. There are too many things that can and will go wrong no matter what style of movie they make. Worse if it's a series.
[2020-05-20 14:46:54] <Z-Man> They won't do the characters justice, they won't do the story justice.
[2020-05-20 14:53:23] <Z-Man> Assuming that were not the case: Yeah, I'd rather have them make a real live action movie/series with new actors, or proper animation that is recognizable as such. Then they'd have an excuse to go for cartoonish over the top action sequences. There's just more artistic flexibility in either option.
[2020-05-20 14:55:07] <Z-Man> The third of the new Planet of the Apes movies was pretty much all motion captured CGI with just some human support roles :) Those were all some damn good movies, too.
[2020-05-20 14:59:01] <Z-Man> Heh, speaking of almost photorealistic CGI, we watched the Lion King remake last year. The funny thing about that look is that in my memory, it almost immediately got erased again and replaced by the old look, even though I only saw the old movie maybe twice. Well, and a lot of Lion Guard, the animated series about Simba's son, that probably helped.
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[2020-05-21 01:19:09] <Lucifer_arma> Well, I'm not a fan of the idea of making CG characters in an otherwise live action film just because the original actors have aged too much or died.  I think that's just cheap (not as in cost, as in attitude), and the roles should be recast (which they've done, so far)
[2020-05-21 01:19:57] <Lucifer_arma> And I'd be up for remakes of the original trilogy and a new trilogy to follow if they were actually going to add to the story without adding all the stupid shit you know they'd add
[2020-05-21 01:20:20] <Lucifer_arma> especially if they made a completely new third movie instead of the crap that's there
[2020-05-21 01:20:27] <Lucifer_arma> but that's beside the point :)
[2020-05-21 01:22:21] <Lucifer_arma> I'm curious how photorealistic characters animated with standard animation movement techniques would look, and if that would be preferable to trying to make it look exactly like a live action film would look and failing
[2020-05-21 01:22:55] <Lucifer_arma> and I'm still not sure about the Lion King remake.  I haven't decided to watch it.  Then again, I never intended to watch the original, but I had kids, so not much choice on that.
[2020-05-21 03:48:42] <Z-Man> "Cheap" fits. Photorealistic CGI standins for dead/aged actors send the message that they want to give the audience exactly what they're familiar with instead of something new.
[2020-05-21 03:50:05] <Z-Man> Unrealisticly animated/doctored movements of otherwise human looking characters has been the standard for action scenes in the past decade :) Yeah, it would be interesting to see what happens if you apply that to the rest of a film.
[2020-05-21 07:30:27] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma guru3 check out https://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=38265  Sinewav is suggesting the name "Retrocycles" for Steam. a) I think that is brilliant and b) we should just make him our Art Director.
[2020-05-21 07:33:55] <guru3> Retrocycles is a good idea
[2020-05-21 07:34:02] <guru3> currently all of the top search results are for a font
[2020-05-21 07:34:37] <guru3> and if you dig deeper a game called retrobike or apparently a company renting electric bicycles
[2020-05-21 07:35:05] <guru3> cycles as a keyword on steam doesn't turn up much that's relevant
[2020-05-21 07:36:10] <guru3> there are quite a few games on steam starting with 'retro' already, but retrowave is the only direct pop down on my search box
[2020-05-21 07:37:04] <guru3> of the other games that have 'retro' in the name, a large portion of them do seem to lean into the 80s purple pink synthwave type aesthetic
[2020-05-21 07:37:33] <guru3> which may mean there's an expectation for that sort of vibe
[2020-05-21 07:37:56] <guru3> and given tron legacy's music in particular, I don't see that being entirely irrelevant to us
[2020-05-21 07:38:23] <guru3> my main concern with 'retrocycles' as a name is that we're potentially loosing some name recognition
[2020-05-21 07:52:37] <Z-Man> True, but the main reason to do a steam release is to get in new people anyway; those who know who and what we are don't need to find us on Steam randomly. And if we stay clear of trademarks, "Arma" and "Tron" are right out. We could cal it "GE" :)
[2020-05-21 07:54:34] <Z-Man> (Other reason for Steam: Autoupdates for everyone. So far, only Ubuntu users got convenient ones, everyone else had to use ZeroInstall, which is nice IMHO, but looks like crap on Windows)
[2020-05-21 08:17:01] <Z-Man> GE cold stand for Grid Engines.
[2020-05-21 10:13:34] <guru3> Retrocycles: GE
[2020-05-21 10:14:27] <guru3> annoyingly retrocycles.com appears to be registered
[2020-05-21 10:16:27] <guru3> but retrocycles.net is available
[2020-05-21 10:17:05] <guru3> same deal with gridengines
[2020-05-21 10:17:34] <guru3> I'm OK with rebranding to RetroCycles
[2020-05-21 10:19:26] <guru3> DNS registration query suggests "arm-a-get-rona-d.blog"
[2020-05-21 10:20:19] <guru3> where apparently 'rona' is slang for covid-19 Oo
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[2020-05-21 10:46:43] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-21 10:46:43] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-21 10:47:01] -!- verne.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-21 10:47:02] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
[2020-05-21 12:42:58] <luke-jr> Z-Man: uh, pretty sure nobody can trademark "Arma"
[2020-05-21 12:43:09] <luke-jr> especially not as "Armage[ddon]"
[2020-05-21 12:44:30] <luke-jr> is Steam even GPL-compatible, though?
[2020-05-21 15:10:56] <Z-Man> luke-jr: Arma, Arma 2 and Arma 3 is a game series by Bohemia Interactive. Trandemarked. I did find in some trademark database that they have a patchy record of enforcing it, unlike Nintendo and Disney, but still.
[2020-05-21 15:12:24] <Z-Man> Steam, the way we're using it, is just a file delivery service. I give some steam service a directory, say "I want that directory verbatim on the users' machines", and Steam makes it happen.
[2020-05-21 15:13:17] <Z-Man> For automation, I have to interact with a proprietary program to do so. But in theory, I could just as well upload a zip into their web interface.
[2020-05-21 15:15:39] <Z-Man> So unless you hold the opinion that the mere contact between GPL and non-GPL-compatible software is forbidden, it is GPL compatible.
[2020-05-21 15:17:15] <Z-Man> Oh, on Linux, Steam is also a "runtime" with a lot of common libraries already preinstalled. SDL and libxml2 are among them. Those are of course also compatible.
[2020-05-21 15:18:39] <Z-Man> Things get interesting should we want to support easy Steam login. Then you need an authentication token, and that you only get from a proprietary library.
[2020-05-21 15:18:58] <Z-Man> The way I would use that:
[2020-05-21 15:19:35] <Z-Man> 1. Define a generic interface by which Armagetron can get an authentication token from some external entity, say a dynamically loaded library.
[2020-05-21 15:19:58] <Z-Man> 2. Use that to implement OAuth authentication in one instance.
[2020-05-21 15:20:14] <Z-Man> 3. Bundle that implementation with every installation.
[2020-05-21 15:20:40] <Z-Man> 4. Use the intefrace to implement Steam auth token retrieval. Do not bundle that.
[2020-05-21 15:21:12] <Z-Man> 5. Offer the steam authentication plugin as DLC on steam.
[2020-05-21 15:21:28] <Z-Man> The interface would need to be LGPL at least, of course.
[2020-05-21 15:21:51] <Z-Man> That way, we do not distribute any individual product that is in violation of the GPL.
[2020-05-21 15:22:54] <Z-Man> Now, on the users' machines, the two bits get combined, and even automatically, buit we're not distributing that result, and without distribution, you can still do with a GPLed product whatever you want.
[2020-05-21 15:25:01] <Z-Man> I'm not entirely sure whether I'd want to do any of that. OAuth alone would be enough to let Steam users log in with their Steam account, they'd just have to log in on an external web browser that pops up. I think Steam supports OAuth or something similar.
[2020-05-21 15:41:46] <luke-jr> Z-Man: Armage[ddon] is clearly distinct
[2020-05-21 15:42:54] <Z-Man> Yes, but not Armacycles, or even ArmaCycles as it was first spelled, the evasive name first picked.
[2020-05-21 15:43:26] <Z-Man> There, the Armageddon origin is not recognizable any more.
[2020-05-21 15:56:56] <luke-jr> ah
[2020-05-21 16:04:17] <Z-Man> OH guru3 we definitely do not want to be GET RONA, then
[2020-05-21 16:04:49] <Z-Man> Great, now I won't be able to get that out of my head.
[2020-05-21 21:05:48] <Lucifer_arma> How about ArmaLite Cycles?
[2020-05-21 21:06:42] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: your workaround doesn't work, actually.  The end-user winds up violating the GPL.  That wouldn't stop them from using the software, but it would basically say "You can't distribute it anymore"
[2020-05-21 21:06:48] <Lucifer_arma> Not that *anybody* is going to enforce it like that
[2020-05-21 21:06:56] <Lucifer_arma> the bigger concern is social, though.
[2020-05-21 21:07:39] <Lucifer_arma> Audacity had this problem when they wanted to make VCL plugins for Windows and use LADSPA for linux.  They ended up becoming the first app ever to implement the LADSPA api for Windows and Mac OS X (I think Macs also used VCL)
[2020-05-21 21:07:44] <Lucifer_arma> (or they had their own)
[2020-05-21 21:08:26] <Lucifer_arma> anyway, the GPL library they were using, I think it was called libsamplerate, was the fastest on-the-fly resampling code you could get, and they relied heavily on it
[2020-05-21 21:09:15] <Lucifer_arma> When they wrote the LADSPA -> VCL bridge (which, as a sidenote, led them down the path of helping design the LADSPA gui api), the creator of libsamplerate shit his pants
[2020-05-21 21:10:13] <Lucifer_arma> he was talking about revoking the license for Audacity developers because they were linking his GPL library to a series of proprietary plugins (the VCL plugins), and they were dodging responsibility for it by making the end-users do the dirty work
[2020-05-21 21:10:43] <Lucifer_arma> now, he couldn't revoke the GPL for audacity developers, of course, but he could write in an exception for new releases
[2020-05-21 21:11:30] <Lucifer_arma> anyway, the audacity project made the decision not to stir the pot, wrote their own resampling code, and just took the performance hit not using libsamplerate gave them
[2020-05-21 21:11:47] <Lucifer_arma> the libsamplerate guy apologized for the inconvenience he put them through, and no bridges were burned :)
[2020-05-21 21:12:18] <Lucifer_arma> The point of the long-winded story is basically that even though we could write the auth bridge to authenticate with steam, we shouldn't
[2020-05-21 21:12:46] <Lucifer_arma> now, if we can write a steam auth server that's open source, or get steam to release enough of the auth server in a GPL-compatible license that we can use it, then we can do it
[2020-05-21 21:13:03] <Lucifer_arma> ok, that's what's based on what you said
[2020-05-21 21:13:54] <Lucifer_arma> now then, it's when we link to libraries that the license really matters.  Do we have to link to any steam libraries in order to implement steam auth?
[2020-05-21 21:14:46] <Lucifer_arma> i think that also includes using google protobuf definition files.  If they provide them for free, but don't give a GPL-compatible license, then we'd have to do the cleanroom separation, where someone (probably me) reads the definition files and writes a specification for the packets
[2020-05-21 21:14:57] <Lucifer_arma> and then someone else implements the specification
[2020-05-21 21:15:04] <Lucifer_arma> pain in the ass
[2020-05-21 21:15:39] <Lucifer_arma> we could also simply take the interpretation that steam is a platform, not a distribution system, which puts it on the level of operating system, allowing us to link to any steam library we need to
[2020-05-21 21:15:58] <Lucifer_arma> it would be easier to take that interpretation if they'd release their gaming console, of course
[2020-05-21 21:16:12] <Lucifer_arma> and, it goes without saying
[2020-05-21 21:16:33] <Lucifer_arma> (that any code that links to steam libraries wouldn't be allowed in the regular releases)
[2020-05-21 21:17:12] <Lucifer_arma> then the game can only require steam code/libraries when it's being played through the steam platform.
[2020-05-21 21:17:41] <Lucifer_arma> that would mean that the binaries we distribute wouldn't be able to support steam auth, and if people wanted to use steam auth, then they'd be required to download the steam binary
[2020-05-21 21:17:48] <Lucifer_arma> hm.  I think that interacts poorly with the GPL.
[2020-05-21 21:19:44] <Lucifer_arma> but if we interpret steam as simply a distribution system, then it really doesn't matter if the end-user has to use a proprietary client to download it.  That gets a bit silly.
[2020-05-21 21:20:05] <Lucifer_arma> like, seriously, do you require all the engineering designs for the USPS trucks because you sent someone a CD with armagetron on it?
[2020-05-21 21:21:02] <Lucifer_arma> what matters then is the same as everywhere else we distribute: we don't link to non-compatible code, and the end-user should be able to keep the game if the steam client is removed/disabled, and should be able to play it uninhibited at all times
[2020-05-21 21:21:29] <Lucifer_arma> as for names, please don't go with ArmaLite Cycles, that's an obvious joke that may only be obvious to a subset of americans
[2020-05-21 21:29:40] <Lucifer_arma> also, Z-Man: haven't we made sinewav our art director several times and he just keeps saying no?
[2020-05-21 21:33:22] <Lucifer_arma> and man have I been unproductive
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[2020-05-22 10:28:12] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-22 10:28:12] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-22 10:28:14] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-22 12:11:55] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: The users don't have to distribute the binaries they got, that bit does not worry me.
[2020-05-22 12:12:28] <Z-Man> What I am concerned with: Is it really the user that munches together GPLed and non-GPL-compatible parts?
[2020-05-22 12:13:23] <Z-Man> It happens on the user's machine, sure. But exactly in the way we tell the Steam backend it should happen. It's as if we ssh into their machine and do the combining for them.
[2020-05-22 12:14:45] <Z-Man> Clearly, the clause that allows to link with the operating system is the only way out.
[2020-05-22 12:15:16] <Z-Man> And even though commercial SteamBoxes are dead (there have been a couple!), SteamOS is still a thing: https://store.steampowered.com/steamos/
[2020-05-22 12:16:23] <Z-Man> What's also not going to work: If the game is linked to the Steam SDK, it won't work properly any more without a running Steam client.
[2020-05-22 12:17:01] <Z-Man> As it is right now, our Windows Steam build is still able to run normally if started manually.
[2020-05-22 12:18:53] <Z-Man> The Linux build works for me the same way, but I make it rely on the libraries from the Steam Runtime to save space, so if you don't have those libraries, it won't run if you don't start if from the Steam Client. Even if it is still installed. If it is installed, you can employ path magic to make it find the libraries.
[2020-05-22 12:24:15] <Z-Man> OpenID is the standard Steam supports. OAuth, too, but I always get them confused, and OAuth is not the one for user authentication, it's for giving your application the right to act on behalf of a user on a platform.
[2020-05-22 12:30:28] <Z-Man> Now, OpenID is purely web based. The way the Authority makes it known to the Service that a user is genuine is that it forwards the user's web browser to the Service with a payload in the URI. So we do need a web server that receives that payload and then somehow makes the user's identity known to the game servers.
[2020-05-22 12:31:44] <Z-Man> Ideally, with cryptography. The client could generate a public/private key pair, the auth server signs a document containing the public key and identity of the user.
[2020-05-22 12:32:54] <Z-Man> The document and signature are then presented to the game servers, then the game client proves its in possesion of the private key by decrypting a random challenge from the game server.
[2020-05-22 18:26:40] <Lucifer_arma> well, openID is an open standard, isn't it?  That means no problem, we just write to the standard.  We only have to provide an auth server if steam requires it, but we should still provide the forums as an auth server so that the armathentication users can keep their identities in openID environments
[2020-05-22 18:27:23] <Lucifer_arma> Also, and this is somewhat obvious, we should conditionally load steam dlls in both the steam release and our own public release, so that if they're not there, the game runs fine but has no steam interoperability
[2020-05-22 18:27:50] <Lucifer_arma> it's been close to 20 years since I last looked at runtime linking, though, so I have absolutely no idea how it's done now
[2020-05-22 18:29:01] <Lucifer_arma> in linux, do we get any steam environment variables?  Just curiosity there.  Or do they provide a pkg-config script?  That would be best.  :)
[2020-05-22 18:30:08] <Lucifer_arma> um, legally it is the user that munches the GPL and non-GPL stuff.  I don't remember the court cases deciding that in the US, but it has been decided in court
[2020-05-22 18:30:18] <Lucifer_arma> it may have been back during the SCO garbage
[2020-05-22 18:30:45] <Lucifer_arma> I believe the comparison made was to drunk driving.  Just because we provide the alcohol doesn't mean we made the person drive drunk
[2020-05-22 18:31:17] <Lucifer_arma> but my argument against such a bridge was more about reputation and avoiding trouble with any of our third party providers, not really concerned about the legality
[2020-05-22 18:32:04] <Lucifer_arma> same with the distribution argument: I think we at least violate the spirit of the GPL if we go the bridge route, even if there's technically no license violation that we're asking the user to commit
[2020-05-22 18:32:29] <Lucifer_arma> but interpreting steam as a platform eliminates all of those concerns anyway
[2020-05-22 18:33:08] <Lucifer_arma> We'll need to add something to our license boilerplate indicating that, and make sure it's in at least the files that link to the steam stuff, of course
[2020-05-22 18:33:49] <Lucifer_arma> and doing that won't protect us in court, necessarily, but it would mitigate any damages if we lose, and the likelihood of us ending up in court is much lower than the likelihood of the moon spontaneously dropping out of the sky
[2020-05-22 18:35:00] <Lucifer_arma> but we'll definitely be riding Wine's coattails on it, since Wine is the only project I can think of that's doing anything similar
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[2020-05-23 11:34:19] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-23 11:34:19] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-23 11:34:21] -!- weber.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-23 11:34:21] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-23 16:02:35] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-23 16:02:35] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-23 18:23:41] <Z-Man> Oh sure, no matter how legal it would be, building a GPL-NOGPL bridge is murky.
[2020-05-23 18:23:57] <Z-Man> Also technically difficult. The added problem is that the DLL to link to is a C++ DLL, and C++ has no fixed binary interface.
[2020-05-23 18:24:25] <Z-Man> Meaning you need yo build the game with the exact same compiler and the exact same settings as the DLL.
[2020-05-23 18:25:06] <Z-Man> On Linux, that's not an issue, since the build is done in a Docker container based on an image provided by Steam with the right compiler in it.
[2020-05-23 18:25:31] <Z-Man> On Windows... URGH.
[2020-05-23 18:25:45] <Z-Man> Our build process there now is:
[2020-05-23 18:25:58] <Z-Man> I have a private virtual server.
[2020-05-23 18:26:15] <Z-Man> On that runs Docker and gitlab runner.
[2020-05-23 18:26:39] <Z-Man> They fire up one master container, that connects to the host docker to spin up another container
[2020-05-23 18:26:48] <Z-Man> In that second container runs wine
[2020-05-23 18:27:10] <Z-Man> and in Wine, we build the game with Code::Blocks and mingw.
[2020-05-23 18:27:42] <Z-Man> We're lucky that works :)
[2020-05-23 18:29:53] <Z-Man> (Not really. Each of those layers of virtualization, containerisation and not-emulation is well defined and can be debugged on its own. Critical bit is that Code::Blocks needs to run under Wine. It has been doing that for quite a while now, so no worries.)
[2020-05-23 18:31:36] <Z-Man> To link to the Steam SDK, we'd need to pivot that over to Visual C++. I think Code::Blocks can drive that, too, and there is a cost-free version available.
[2020-05-23 18:32:04] <Z-Man> So it's probably possible, but to repeat myself: URGH.
[2020-05-23 18:33:14] <Z-Man> Plus, it's too murky. I'm not doing it.
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[2020-05-23 22:26:25] <Lucifer_arma> ahhh, I don't like the idea of being required to use the compiler provided by steam.  It may have bugs.  :)
[2020-05-23 22:27:12] <Lucifer_arma> so, basically, we won't be interoperating with steam unless there are libraries available for us to link to using our regular build system, meaning that we're either using open standards or they're providing the libraries

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[2020-05-24 09:03:26] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-24 09:03:26] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-25 04:20:55] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
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[2020-05-25 17:58:31] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
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[2020-05-26 16:31:21] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: Both. The compiler and library they provide are just some basic Ubuntu, it's not any more buggy than what we're used to :). Linking with the libraries they provide guarantees optimal compatibility and also saves us from having to distribute the libraries ourselves (as we do in the AppImage and ZeroInstall packages), making the download smaller. So it's both open standard and sort of their build system and libraries.
[2020-05-26 16:35:43] <Z-Man> Hmm. Is the GPL an EULA? We can display an EULA the user has to accept. It's a Licence Agreement all right, but End User? It's more than that. On the Windows installer, we do show the GPL in the License spot, but it's not specifically called EULA, IIRC.
[2020-05-26 17:17:20] <Z-Man> Oh yeah, of note: The build docker image Steam provides is Open Source, at least in the parts we're using. I haven't checked whether it includes the proprietary bits, it probably does.
[2020-05-26 17:34:53] <Z-Man> O yeah 2: I posted an invite to the private discord chat for developers on the developer only section of the forums. It's like IRC, but you can give chat lines of otheres a thumbs up!
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[2020-05-26 20:19:47] <Armanelgtron> there's one of those? hm
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[2020-05-27 16:18:22] <Z-Man> Two, in fact. I don't quite get how joining works.
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[2020-05-27 20:54:43] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1105 Merge in revision 1469 from lp:armagetronad/0.2.8
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[2020-05-27 22:25:00] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1106 Work around CONDENSE_CONQUEST_OUTPUT causing only team score...
[2020-05-27 23:26:44] <Armanelgtron> I assume you'd need to assign Dev roles to others. I think joining just takes you into the server but without any roles assigned, even if you invite someone to a private chat
[2020-05-27 23:27:06] <Armanelgtron> of course I'm probably wrong
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[2020-05-28 01:46:29] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
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[2020-05-28 02:42:14] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-28 02:42:16] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-28 07:08:28] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-28 07:08:28] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-28 07:08:29] -!- card.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-28 07:08:29] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-28 14:50:10] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-28 14:50:10] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-28 14:50:12] -!- verne.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-28 14:50:12] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
[2020-05-28 16:14:38] <Armanelgtron> hmm, what I was trying to say but poorly wrote was that I dont think you can just invite someone to a private chat that requires permissions beyond the default
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[2020-05-28 19:32:50] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-28 19:32:50] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-28 19:32:52] -!- verne.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-28 19:32:52] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
[2020-05-28 19:58:14] <luke-jr> Z-Man: non-distributors don't need to care about GPL
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[2020-05-29 02:32:21] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-29 02:32:21] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-29 02:32:23] -!- beckett.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-29 02:32:23] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-29 02:48:23] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-29 02:48:23] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-29 02:48:26] -!- hitchcock.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-29 02:48:26] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-29 15:00:50] <Z-Man> Armanelgtron: Well, it let me create such an invitation for the dev-channel, but of course the invitiation could mean 'come join the server, wait until you get your role assigned before you join the channel'.
[2020-05-29 15:43:34] <luke-jr> Discord sucks, but I doubt anyone cares what I think at this point :P
[2020-05-29 16:07:55] <Z-Man> luke-jr: Their monetization is clearly bonkers. No native Linux client also sucks, as does having a proprietary backend. The web client is quite good as far as those things go. It's better than Microsoft Teams' native client, if that counts for anything.
[2020-05-29 16:09:03] <luke-jr> IRC works :p
[2020-05-29 16:09:16] <Z-Man> I do with IRC had two of Discord's (or other modern chat systems) features: Persistent presence for everyone and the ability to attach quick reactions to others' posts.
[2020-05-29 16:09:40] <luke-jr> someone could always run a Quassel server for others
[2020-05-29 16:10:01] <Z-Man> Huh. There's an idea.
[2020-05-29 16:10:33] <Z-Man> Is there a way to automate user management with that?
[2020-05-29 16:11:03] <luke-jr> not sure
[2020-05-29 16:14:50] <Z-Man> Apparently, it supports LDAP, there should be a way then.
[2020-05-29 16:15:42] <Z-Man> But then, the Quassel Client only connects to one core.
[2020-05-29 20:48:35] <Armanelgtron> I've been using https://cancel.fm/ripcord/ ... it calls itself shareware and it's a bit fiddily sometimes, but it's a native (unofficial, of course) Discord client using Qt
[2020-05-29 20:49:39] <Armanelgtron> more options might have popped up since I last checked though
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[2020-05-29 22:22:57] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-29 22:22:57] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-29 22:23:01] -!- sinisalo.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-29 22:23:01] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC

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[2020-05-30 04:04:40] <Z-Man> There is a "native" discord app for Linux now.  Scare quotes because it's probably one of them webpages disguised as apps.
[2020-05-30 04:04:57] <Z-Man> Command line client: https://github.com/Bios-Marcel/cordless
[2020-05-30 04:32:57] <Z-Man> The official client isn't too bad, only takes 2-3x as much memory as Quassel and a bit less than Thunderbird. Constant ~1% CPU load even when minimized, that's bugging me a bit. Then again, Firefox right now is at 10%, gotta find that tab.
[2020-05-30 05:43:24] <Z-Man> luke-jr: you are right about the GPL being irrelevant for the users, I won't register it as EULA. Doing so causes a scary "Game requires signing third party EULA" on the store page, too.
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[2020-05-30 10:29:37] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-30 10:29:37] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-30 10:29:40] -!- kornbluth.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-30 10:29:40] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-30 11:35:14] <Z-Man> The annoying thing is that so far, I haven't found a good spot to make it clear that *I* distribute it here in accordance with the GPL and were they find the source and stuff.
[2020-05-30 11:36:51] <Z-Man> I considered including the source as DLC, but the point of Steam distribution is that they also check your files for modifications after installation, you're not supposed to modify antything and expect Steam to not wipe it away at any time. So that's definitely not very useful.
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[2020-05-30 11:56:19] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-30 11:56:19] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-30 11:56:22] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-31 04:14:49] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-31 04:14:49] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2020-05-31 04:14:52] -!- card.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2020-05-31 04:14:52] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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[2020-05-31 04:15:10] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-31 04:15:10] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-31 04:23:39] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-31 04:23:39] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-31 04:27:40] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-31 04:27:40] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-31 07:26:50] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-31 07:26:50] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-31 10:29:11] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-31 10:29:11] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-31 10:29:14] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
[2020-05-31 16:44:33] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1261 Merge branch 'legacy_0.2.8.3_cherrypick' into 'legacy_0.2.8.... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] Generate ChangeLog and fingerprint from git... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] Made language update.py file Phython 3 compatible...
[2020-05-31 18:44:52] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] r1262 Merge branch 'legacy_0.2.8.3_ci_build_squashed' into 'legacy... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] Add docker based CI system... || [0.2.8.3-armagetronad-work] Read CI variables for version determination...
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[2020-05-31 19:14:54] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2020-05-31 19:14:54] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
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[2020-05-31 21:13:01] <Lucifer_arma> Let's just rename to TORN.
[2020-05-31 21:13:48] <Lucifer_arma> See if the RPG makers will sue us.  Meanwhile, we'll add the rip bug back as a feature, and stabilize it, and send players to special areas that are not tron-like if they get through.
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