Log from 2019-04-07:
[01:24:57] *** Joins: physkets (~physkets@unaffiliated/physkets)
[01:32:29] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: I did, but then Microsoft bought github, and I'm still not trusting. I'll put it on my todo list to put it on launchpad, because I trust canonical a bit, still, even if Mark Shuttleworth likes to flap his jaw like Elon Musk
[01:36:13] <physkets> Lucifer_arma: not trust MS about what?
[01:36:25] <Lucifer_arma> I just figured out how I broke acme, and have been hitting my head against the wall trying to fix it, when I needed to rethink the design
[01:36:40] <Lucifer_arma> physkets: their attitude about open source software and copyrights and shit
[01:36:59] <Lucifer_arma> for most of my life, they've been the Empire and I've been one of the Rebels
[01:37:01] <physkets> sure, but how does that connect to GitHub? I mean what can they do?
[01:37:18] <physkets> since it is git, one can easily migrate
[01:37:20] <Lucifer_arma> plenty. A quick change of TOS and they get a closed source license to everything on github
[01:37:25] <physkets> so I think it is safe
[01:37:35] <physkets> No, I think that is just FUD
[01:37:53] <Lucifer_arma> it's how they screwed IBM out of OS/2, so it's not exactly irrational :)
[01:37:57] <physkets> you can't arbitrarily do that if your project already has a license
[01:38:30] <physkets> sure, they may change the default, but as long as you;re careful, I don't think anything can go too wrong
[01:38:30] <Lucifer_arma> sure, but who's got the resources to sue? Google uses their own project site, and apple hates us still....
[01:38:40] <physkets> Sue? Why sue?
[01:38:52] <physkets> you can continue distribution your software
[01:38:56] <Lucifer_arma> why should I have to be careful in the first place? *I* put code up there under a specific license
[01:39:08] <physkets> ya, that is all that is required
[01:39:20] <physkets> that is exactly what I mean by careful
[01:39:23] <physkets> giving it a license
[01:39:26] <Lucifer_arma> of course I can, but it defeats the purpose of GPL'ing my software if MS finds a loophole and takes a closed source version of it to do what they want
[01:39:42] <physkets> as I said, FUD
[01:39:45] <Lucifer_arma> or what if they just close it up? Or fork their own?
[01:39:51] <Lucifer_arma> they have a *history* of doing that kind of shit
[01:39:55] <physkets> sure, they can fork it
[01:39:57] <Lucifer_arma> a long history
[01:40:00] <physkets> GPL allows for that
[01:40:11] <Lucifer_arma> I mean the github site itself.
[01:40:19] <Lucifer_arma> or require payment to continue using it
[01:40:20] <physkets> I don't understand
[01:40:31] <physkets> what does close github mean?
[01:40:42] <physkets> if they close it, then people will go elsewhere
[01:40:46] <physkets> simple
[01:40:49] <Lucifer_arma> shut down the servers that run the github software and not turn them on
[01:40:56] <physkets> okay, so what?
[01:41:06] <Lucifer_arma> so, I don't want to deal with any of their shit
[01:41:20] <Lucifer_arma> that was why I installed Mandrake Linux back in 2001 in the first place
[01:41:29] <physkets> hmmm... i guess our irrational fears are our own
[01:41:42] <Lucifer_arma> it's not irrational if there's a rational and factual basis :)
[01:41:50] <Lucifer_arma> a fear can be rational and unreasonable
[01:42:00] <physkets> you can construct ratinale for any arbitrary argument
[01:42:14] <Lucifer_arma> yes, but I'm not making an arbitrary argument
[01:42:18] <physkets> you are
[01:42:30] <Lucifer_arma> I'm making the "what if MS isn't as nice as they say they are, because they've always been big bullies" argument
[01:42:37] <physkets> and unfortunately, yuo have feelings associated with it,
[01:42:53] <physkets> you won't be capable of distilling a proper argument
[01:42:55] <Lucifer_arma> yes, and they have a *lot* of work to do to gain my trust
[01:42:58] <physkets> so I won't engage
[01:43:10] <Lucifer_arma> they haven't done that work yet
[01:43:15] <physkets> Git as such is trust-less
[01:43:15] <Lucifer_arma> so, I don't want to use github
[01:43:18] <Lucifer_arma> it's very simple
[01:43:23] <physkets> i.e., you don't need to trust anyone
[01:43:39] <physkets> because the full copy resides with everyone who clones it
[01:43:43] <physkets> it was designed like that
[01:43:43] <Lucifer_arma> git can be trust-less, that's fine, but servers owned by microsoft are still servers owned by microsoft
[01:44:03] <physkets> yes, so my point is, that if MS ever dcided to do stupid stuff,
[01:44:08] <physkets> it is very easy to migrate
[01:44:09] <Lucifer_arma> there's an easy way not to get eaten by a bear: don't go into the bear's lair
[01:44:12] <physkets> they ahve no control
[01:44:28] <physkets> But in this case, the bear's lair has a nice community of devs
[01:44:38] <physkets> and the devs have a moble home
[01:44:43] <physkets> that is bear-resistant
[01:44:44] <Lucifer_arma> it doesn't matter how well-decorated the bear's lair is, it's still a bear's lair
[01:44:50] <physkets> and can move whenever they want
[01:45:09] <Lucifer_arma> plenty of homeless people make the same argument, and the cops still regularly harass and beat them
[01:45:27] <physkets> see, now, you;re making pointless arguments
[01:45:35] <physkets> I'm not continuing this
[01:45:43] <physkets> because you can't be objective
[01:45:46] <Lucifer_arma> microsoft has done more than just be a little bit "bad". This is more like Jeffrey Daumer promising not to drill holes into people's heads anymore, and then inviting you over to his place for dinner.
[01:45:47] <physkets> and that is okay
[01:46:10] <Lucifer_arma> I'm willing to meet microsoft out in public and see what they're doing
[01:46:34] <Lucifer_arma> I'm open to the idea that they're serious about open source development and are going to be a great player in the arena, and I'm looking forward to all of that
[01:47:06] <Lucifer_arma> but I'm still not letting them have my code on their terms, it must be on my terms, and my terms include choosing the servers that I rely on to share it with other developers
[01:49:33] <Lucifer_arma> I trust canonical, because not only have they done a lot of really great things, they've also made a number of mistakes and apologized and so forth. They're real human beings, and they've always been on our side (even though they pissed people off with their own x.org replacement and systemd and a few other things)
[01:51:18] <Lucifer_arma> and finally, "not being objective" is something you're saying because you are having trouble with my microsoft skepticism. I'd rather you be more accepting. ;)
[02:05:59] <physkets> sure, I am being accepting, by not engaging further, eventhough I disagree
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[05:49:12] * Z-Man suspected he should have said GitLab
[05:50:10] <Z-Man> The thing I don't like about github is that their site runs secret, closed source software and does not allow you to export your data.
[05:50:39] <Z-Man> Your code, sure. But issues and all that discussion metadata? Nope.
[05:51:07] <Z-Man> So if they decide to do something silly, you can migrate away, but you still lose stuff.
[05:52:02] <Z-Man> I don't think one minute OS source code on github is at any special risk of being stolen/apropriated by Microsoft. They can already do that no matter where you host it, as long as it is public.
[05:52:05] <physkets> hmm true
[05:52:31] <Z-Man> As a company using a paid, private code repository I'd be a bit worried.
[05:52:32] <physkets> you do loose all the issues & discussions
[05:52:57] <physkets> But I think Gilab also uses a proprietary version on their servers
[05:53:01] <physkets> not the FOSS one
[05:53:12] <physkets> so it isn;t like tha tis any better
[05:53:58] <Z-Man> Philosophically, maybe not. But you can still export all your data.
[05:55:19] <Z-Man> I also think that with Nadella as MS boss, they really try to be good to and with Open Source.
[05:56:01] <Z-Man> They publish a lot of their stuff under OS licenses now, and VS code is quite good. It's probably really great now, I tried it last a year ago or so.
[05:57:01] <Z-Man> C#/.Net is open, too. Of course, they then made the aquisitions so they again own all implementations, but still.
[05:58:10] <Z-Man> I trust Microsoft way more than Google or Apple now.
[05:59:08] <Z-Man> Apple is just a dictator. With Google, you always have to ask "OK, what do YOU get out of that?".
[06:01:45] <Z-Man> MS does screw up every other Windows 10 update, but they seem to listen to developers and you know they make their big money from Office subscriptions and a bit of Windows. The rest of their strategy seems to focus on "how do we make people WANT to work in our ecosystem?"
[07:56:45] <luke-jr> Z-Man: I think there is a way to export issues/etc from GitHub, actually.
[07:57:41] <luke-jr> [05:37:57] <physkets> you can't arbitrarily do that if your project already has a license <-- they certainly can
[07:58:23] <luke-jr> when Google Code was a thing, I noted their ToS required that they get a special license to do whatever they wanted, disregarding cvpyleft terms
[08:00:18] <physkets> hmmm.... I see..
[09:28:15] <Z-Man> luke-jr: oh, you're right, since relatively recently: https://github.blog/2018-12-19-download-your-data/
[09:34:39] <luke-jr> pretty sure there were APIs or something before that too
[09:35:45] <luke-jr> also, that link seems to be personal data, not group data
[09:49:04] <physkets> yeah, okay, I suppose the fear is not unfounded, then.
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[14:07:13] <luke-jr> wow, github's download of my data is 1.2 GB
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