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Log from 2018-05-27:
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[03:12:31] <Lucifer_arma> There's a line in an Anthrax song I never thought would actually apply to real life, but does
[03:12:50] <Lucifer_arma> "Cunty-cunty-cunty-cunty-cunt!"
[08:03:01] <physkets> Hey!
[08:03:20] <physkets> Just to confirm, is this where the latest stuff is, ?
[08:03:22] <physkets> https://sourceforge.net/projects/armagetronad/files/snapshots/trunk/2015/
[09:14:13] <physkets> Also, do you guys sign the package?
[09:27:20] <physkets> And in 0.4, so I use sdl2_image and sdl2_mixer as dependencies, instead of sdl1 ?
[10:31:00] <physkets> I get the following error during build:
[10:31:35] <physkets> checking for boostlib >= 1.33.1... configure: error: We could not detect the boost libraries (version 1.33 or higher). If you have a staged boost library (still not installed) please specify $BOOST_ROOT in your environment and do not give a PATH to --with-boost option.  If you are sure you have boost installed, then check your version number looking in <boost/version.hpp>. See http://randspringer.de/boost
[10:31:37] <physkets> for more documentation.
[10:31:52] <physkets> But I have boost-libs ver 1.66
[10:45:01] <physkets> okay, I forgot that to build and compile, I actually need the boost package, not just the libs
[10:45:08] <physkets> But now, I have a new error:
[10:45:12] <physkets> error: static assertion failed: boost::variant does not contain specified type U, call to boost::get<U>(boost::variant<T...>*) will always return NULL
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[13:00:39] <Z-Man> physkets: That static assert was fixed in some later version. We don't have it in a snapshot yet, only if you pull from bzr: https://code.launchpad.net/~armagetronad-dev/armagetronad/0.4-armagetronad-work
[13:01:20] <physkets> Z-Man: oh cool! let me try that
[13:01:29] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: no, IIRC, I did not do anything special for the extensions to show up anywhere. I did not even know they did.
[13:01:52] <physkets> wait, how exactly do I get a tarball of the source?
[13:17:29] <physkets> Z-Man: Also, is there anything I should change in the way I build, between the 0.2.8 and this version?
[13:56:11] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: yeah, I figured that out.  :)  It turns out that the standard extensions don't get displayed for some reason, and to get the display, you just have to install at least one non-standard extension
[13:57:26] <Lucifer_arma> I'm going to try to bite the bullet today and get dlh's extensions working in mediawiki 1.27
[14:25:09] <Z-Man> physkets: not really possible, between the bzr itself and a tarball are some processing steps, among them versioning and changelog creation, both require a working bzr environment.
[14:25:34] <physkets> okay, I'm trying it with bzr,
[14:25:43] <physkets> but it is behaving ery wierdly
[14:26:05] <physkets> It gives me an empty directory when pull the branch
[14:26:08] <Z-Man> So the only way to get a tarball is to check out the bzr, do ./bootstrap, then ./configure, and then you can get your tarball with 'make dist'
[14:26:42] <physkets> ah; well, that is aoky, PKGBUILDs can use bzr
[14:27:12] <Z-Man> When you do the "bzr branch lp:armagetronad/0.4", the resulting 0.4 is empty?
[14:28:42] <physkets> yes, ls shows nothing
[14:28:56] <physkets> well, I don't do exactly that,
[14:29:07] <physkets> I put that in the PKGBUILD
[14:29:11] <physkets> wait,
[14:29:33] <physkets> Z-Man: Is there not 'configure' file anymore?
[14:34:20] <Lucifer_arma> configure is generated by bootstrap, isn't it?
[14:34:31] <Lucifer_arma> you have to run bootstrap first
[14:34:55] <physkets> okay, this was not how 0.2.8 was built
[14:35:30] <Lucifer_arma> it's how 0.2.8 is built when building from svn
[14:35:53] <Lucifer_arma> configure is distributed with the source release, but anytime you build from version control, you have to bootstrap first
[14:36:01] <physkets> I see...
[14:36:20] <physkets> what exactly doe bootstrapping achieve?
[14:36:21] <Lucifer_arma> we use the gnu autotools for building, and they generate configure :)
[14:36:28] <physkets> okay!
[14:36:43] <Lucifer_arma> bootstrap basically runs autoconf, aclocal, and two other things whose names I've forgotten
[14:36:54] <Lucifer_arma> it also generates the version files, if they don't exist
[14:37:17] <Lucifer_arma> we create them manually for a release, but when building from version control, they're generated
[14:38:13] <physkets> ah... it works now!
[14:38:58] <Lucifer_arma> we fiddled with a few other build systems, but none of them really took hold
[14:39:15] <Lucifer_arma> turns out that for all its flaws and ugliness, gnu autotools are an excellent build system
[14:40:42] <physkets> oh
[14:41:05] <physkets> Lucifer_arma: Is there anything else that is very different from 0.2.8?
[14:41:17] <physkets> that I have to keep in mind while building?
[14:51:20] <Lucifer_arma> not that I can think of
[14:51:30] <Lucifer_arma> basically, if bootstrap works and you have all the dependencies, it should build fine
[14:51:50] <Lucifer_arma> the numerous differences from 0.2.8 become apparent only after you start the program :)
[15:13:31] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: https://phys.org/news/2018-05-versions-han-solo-blaster-theyre.html
[15:13:54] <Lucifer_arma> turns out the way to make plasma projectiles is to induce a current in the plasmoid itself, and it'll stick together long enough to hit the target
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[16:16:47] <Z-Man> "reasearch" in quotes is quite fitting. It's mostly just idle speculation.
[16:26:26] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: If only the states had an actual eduational plan, maybe school shootings would go down.
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[17:16:57] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: yeah, but it's exactly the kind of idle speculation that science fiction writers engage in :)
[17:17:31] <Lucifer_arma> ct|kyle: that could bring them down, sure.  But when you look at literally any statistic involving guns, the simple question of "does someone own a gun" significantly changes the statistic
[17:18:04] <Lucifer_arma> where the three most famous statistics that are significantly changes are the murder rate, suicide rate, and number of mass shootings
[17:18:18] <Lucifer_arma> in any one of those cases, simply not owning a gun drives them all down dramatically
[17:19:12] <Lucifer_arma> for example, as a responsible gun owner myself, I don't own any guns because the likelihood someone in my home would use one to commit suicide is scary high
[18:03:18] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: true, but when school is  not enagaging and causes stress, don't you think that may help drive mental illness?
[18:04:09] <luke-jr> in other news, my 5th child (2 yo) set a new first in our family
[18:04:16] <luke-jr> she stuck something in a power outlet..
[18:06:16] <ct|kyle> luke-jr: is she ok?
[18:06:30] <luke-jr> she ran to her room and hid under the covers, then took a nap
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[18:52:50] <Lucifer_arma> ct|kyle: well yeah, but mental illness isn't what causes shootings in the first place, according to people who have actually been shooters
[18:53:16] <sinewav> Ah yes, I remember the first and only time I stuck a fork in a power outlet. Good memories. Then there was the time I was working on some electrical in the house on a live current because there was like one circuit breaker for the entire first ans second floor (stupid design). Had by friend hold a jacket taut around my waist so he could pull me away in case I started to get electrocuted. I'm smart!
[18:53:18] <Lucifer_arma> luke-jr: man, that used to be so fun.  Sticking hangers in power outlets and blowing the circuit breaker
[18:53:44] <Lucifer_arma> dad would keep resetting the breaker and getting frustrated that it kept getting bloan
[18:53:51] <Lucifer_arma> without knowing why :)
[18:57:11] * luke-jr wonders if there is in fact a circuit breaker to reset
[18:57:31] <Lucifer_arma> sinewav: there's actually a specific procedure that mechanics have to learn to be able to pull someone away from a car when they're being electrocuted
[18:57:59] <Lucifer_arma> I never had to do it or have it be done on me, but it's basically "take your belt off, loop it around the person while your pants fall down, then yank them away from the car"
[18:58:19] <sinewav> Yeah, that's basically how we were doing it.
[18:58:30] <Lucifer_arma> not terribly useful if you're working under the dashboard, or under a car that's not on a high lift
[19:00:36] <Lucifer_arma> there's also procedures like "only work one-handed on electrical connections, and put the other hand behind your back"
[19:00:56] <sinewav> ct|kyle: I keep having to argue with people at work about Elon Musk. Anytime I say anything about SpaceX or other projects of his people just shit all over him. I keep trying to explain I'm not part of Elon's cult of personality, but for some reason people have strong opinions of the guy.
[19:01:05] <Lucifer_arma> "don't touch the body of the car while working with electrical stuff, because that is the common ground"
[19:01:21] <sinewav> Lucifer_arma: Ah, that's a good tip.
[19:01:23] <Lucifer_arma> that's weird
[19:01:49] <Lucifer_arma> I'm not part of his personality cult either, but I genuinely like a lot of what he's doing
[19:02:22] <Lucifer_arma> I said on facebook one time to someone bitching about how Texas wouldn't let Tesla sell cars in the state that that was right for Texas to do, and she went all nuts at me
[19:03:09] <Lucifer_arma> suddenly she was all free market and shit, but I guarantee you that if she were in Texas when the lawsuits were happening (mid-90s) that made it so that Tesla can't do vertical integration monopolisticlly, she'd have sided with consumers
[19:03:46] <Lucifer_arma> because dealers were telling their customers that if they took their car to an aftermarket shop, it would void their warranty
[19:03:59] <Lucifer_arma> and that's Tesla's business model!
[19:04:19] <Lucifer_arma> it's also illegal, which is why Tesla can't sell cars in Texas until they fix their shit
[19:04:37] <sinewav> Yeah, I even said to my co-workers that his personality leaves a lot to be desired and some of this projects are shite, but for some reason the get furious when anything is mentioned. Everyone is so damn hostile!
[19:04:58] <Lucifer_arma> and yes, I was working in the industry when those lawsuits happened (mid-90s)
[19:05:15] <Lucifer_arma> he also overpromises and underdelivers consistently
[19:05:28] <Lucifer_arma> don't get me wrong, SpaceX and Tesla have done some enormously amazing things
[19:05:42] <Lucifer_arma> but if we measure their success relative to what Elon Musk has promised, they're both utter failures
[19:06:21] <Lucifer_arma> he's just a guy who deserves both a great deal of praise and a great deal of criticism
[19:08:28] <Lucifer_arma> oddly enough, he's kind of like Obama in that regard, now that I think about it
[19:08:49] <Lucifer_arma> and I think Obama is probably one of the best presidents we've had, certainly the best in my lifetime
[19:10:17] <Lucifer_arma> I'm actually excited about the boring company :)
[19:10:24] <Lucifer_arma> and I've figured out his long-term plan
[19:10:42] <Lucifer_arma> electric vehicles, batteries, solar power, boring, and rockets
[19:10:52] <Lucifer_arma> if you combine all of these technologies for one goal, what are you doing?
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[19:11:43] <Lucifer_arma> it's worth pointing out that colonizing other planets isn't exactly a secret plan of his
[19:12:03] <Lucifer_arma> but all of those technologies, taken together, form the basis of a settlement on mars or the moon
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[19:57:53] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: you forgot about the wizard hat, neurolink
[19:58:33] <ct|kyle> sinewav: I think his backlash against the media is valide
[20:00:25] <ct|kyle> There was a local news story recently. A Fawn fell into a swimming pool. They mentioned how it was underwared for 15 seconds before they got to it and gave it oxygen
[20:00:59] <ct|kyle> Howerver they failed to mention that they were trying to get it out of the pool area and startled it into the pool
[20:02:03] <ct|kyle> Also It is interesting to watch how spacex news evolves from press conference to news to next days news. they story gets further from the source of truth, the press conference
[20:03:26] <sinewav> Although I have seen Mr. Musk say some pretty dumb shit on Twitter. I wish he would chill a little bit when confronting media representatives.
[20:04:29] <ct|kyle> Any journelist is going to add bias to the sory to tell it in they way they want, back to my local news, they made it seam like the Firefigheters were heros, reviving the fawn and getting it back to it's mother
[20:05:52] <ct|kyle> But instead they let a deer destroy a pool, but startling it into it, then it threw up all over in it and ended up failing bateria tests.
[20:07:54] <Lucifer_arma> ah, neurolink is obviously for controlling the rocket!
[20:08:42] <ct|kyle> Gigafactory 3 location -> Mars :P
[20:11:23] <sinewav> you can't just huddle all journalists under the same umbrella of "bias". Some are better than others.
[20:12:29] <ct|kyle> and that is what Musk wants to rank them on
[20:13:56] <ct|kyle> wich TBH I don't care that much because I read through to see what is missing, but for those who don't do the same, It would be good for a site that can help aid it
[20:15:49] <ct|kyle> If I care about something enough I have to go to the source of the news to actually find out the truth
[20:16:21] <Lucifer_arma> what about when the source is pretty biased?  Like, you know, Elon Musk talking about SpaceX at a press conference :)
[20:16:37] <ct|kyle> Going back to press conference ->  news. There is a lot of underlaying context in tone and context that gets sripped out when going to the news
[20:17:02] <Lucifer_arma> I think I need to write my "I solved war" article so y'all can read my plan for space :)
[20:17:07] <sinewav> I've seen his views misrepresented (especially regarding AI), but I still think he needs to chill a little. I get that he's a human live everyone else, but he needs to pick his battles better.
[20:17:46] <Lucifer_arma> I don't think he cares that much about the battles themselves.  He's operating under the same philosphy that Trump's using: All press is good press.
[20:18:21] <ct|kyle> Why this is his battle, tesla's stock price is cheap, and he's upset that misrepresented media is driving it down
[20:18:23] <Lucifer_arma> so he's just talking to keep his name in the news
[20:18:52] <Lucifer_arma> tesla's stock price is cheap because he keeps overpromising and underdelivering
[20:19:35] <Lucifer_arma> he's not being misrepresented.  He said the Model 3 would be in full production by this time last year, after it had already been delayed from a previous date he'd promised
[20:19:47] <sinewav> in other news, I made a video for a song I recorded the other day and it makes me wish I still did drugs.
[20:19:47] <sinewav> https://vimeo.com/272126020
[20:20:23] <sinewav> Man, I saw one of those Tesla's with the Gull Wings in my neighborhood an that shit is fly.
[20:20:37] <Lucifer_arma> heh, they're sweet cars
[20:20:48] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: actually this time he is basically on track, stock is dipping now because every tesla crash gows ww news
[20:21:37] <Lucifer_arma> hm, I have noticed that
[20:21:53] <Lucifer_arma> in the defense of the news, they grab every self-driving car crash and paste it all over the news
[20:22:03] <ct|kyle> mostly because they question autopilot
[20:22:22] <Lucifer_arma> but in his defense, they're not covering Tesla fairly because so far, in every crash I've read about, it looks like the driver was misusing the feature
[20:23:02] <Lucifer_arma> and they don't mention *that* part, so it looks like the autopilot is the cause
[20:23:44] <ct|kyle> the only one in question for me is the one that they broke an ankel
[20:24:02] <ct|kyle> Although still should have been paying more attention
[20:27:28] <sinewav> I can't wait until cars are good enough you don't have to pay attention. I mean, that's the goal!
[20:30:20] <Lucifer_arma> no kidding.  But honestly, I still enjoy a nice drive in the countryside
[20:30:27] <sinewav> Lucifer_arma: what's your primary OS these days?
[20:30:33] <Lucifer_arma> still kubuntu
[20:30:42] <Lucifer_arma> why?
[20:30:57] <sinewav> How you guys feel about Neon?
[20:31:05] <Lucifer_arma> don't even know what it is, heh
[20:31:09] <Lucifer_arma> lemme google that right quick
[20:31:24] <sinewav> It's basically a stripped down kubuntu
[20:32:08] <sinewav> I used to be an XFCE guy because I wanted something light, but not TOO light. I moves to MATE because of bugs in XFCE. But now I
[20:32:13] <sinewav> Now I'm reading...
[20:32:29] <sinewav> Newest KDE is super recource friendly.
[20:32:38] <Lucifer_arma> I might have to try it
[20:32:59] <sinewav> I'm still rocking a 10 year old laptop, and haven't upgraded yet because of decision fatigue.
[20:33:12] <Lucifer_arma> it's basically "Newest 'stable' KDE release on an ubuntu LTS"
[20:33:19] <sinewav> Basically.
[20:33:44] <Lucifer_arma> I switched to LTS's a few years back when they finally got modern enough that I didn't have to keep upgrading because of hardware issues
[20:33:58] <sinewav> I've never used KDE and didn't like it any time I tried it previously, but I'm not a hater, so I might try again. Just looking for informed opinions from trusted parties.
[20:34:05] <sinewav> ct|kyle: you use KDE on Fedora?
[20:34:07] <Lucifer_arma> but the tradeoff, of course, is that my kde stuff and other apps get two years out of date
[20:34:28] <Lucifer_arma> I've been using KDE since back in the KDE 3 days, and it's pretty solid
[20:34:37] <Lucifer_arma> it's a lot different, now, though
[20:34:48] <Lucifer_arma> for one thing, the actual DE release is now called Plasma, not KDE
[20:35:15] <Lucifer_arma> their workplaces/activities stuff feels a bit half-baked still
[20:35:26] <sinewav> right, Plasma.
[20:35:38] <Lucifer_arma> they've also done the GNOME thing of removing lots of configuration options to make it easier to configure
[20:35:52] <Lucifer_arma> so, you know, less indecision
[20:36:10] <Lucifer_arma> in the process, they removed some stuff that I actually needed, like different bckgrounds for each virtual desktop
[20:36:20] <sinewav> The thing that turned me off before was "too much kibble". There are all these widgets and customizing was overwhelming. That's why I'm thinking Neon is more my style.
[20:36:31] <Lucifer_arma> I used to use those different backgrounds to give me an immediate visual indicator which desktop I was on
[20:36:59] <Lucifer_arma> the out-of-the-box Plasma is pretty easy to use
[20:37:24] <Lucifer_arma> it's an odd blend of windows-like stuff that I hated before, like double-clicking, with more traditional X UI concepts
[20:37:35] <Lucifer_arma> and, afaik, it's still ahead of Windows in terms of overall features
[20:37:40] <sinewav> K. It's literally been 6 years since I tried KDE, and have never tried Plasma.
[20:38:03] <sinewav> Windows is a low fucking bar, lol.
[20:38:09] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, heh
[20:38:32] <Lucifer_arma> also, all of the traditional old KDE apps are basically unmaintained and have been replaced by better newer stuff
[20:38:57] <Lucifer_arma> I forget what the audio app is, but I hear it's competitive/more advanced than audacity
[20:39:08] <Lucifer_arma> and the video editing suite is the best-reviewed I've seen
[20:39:12] <Lucifer_arma> but I haven't used either
[20:39:35] <Lucifer_arma> wait, I lied.  Blender's video editing suite is still the best-reviewed, with the KDE app coming in a fair second
[20:40:10] <Lucifer_arma> but I still use firefox instead of konqueror, and libreoffice instead of koffice
[20:40:50] <sinewav> I've been using Krita for digital painting and it's fucking nice, but crashes a lot on my gnome2/MATE box.
[20:40:57] <Lucifer_arma> also, I am really annoyed that they made the default for clicking desktop icons double-clicking, and it took forever for me to find the configuration option to go back to single-clicking
[20:41:12] <sinewav> I want to try Kden Live (video) but it's never worked on my MATE machine.
[20:41:15] <Lucifer_arma> really?  Not GIMP?
[20:41:28] <Lucifer_arma> why doesn't it work in mate?
[20:41:49] <Lucifer_arma> you can run kde apps in non-plasma environments
[20:41:51] <sinewav> Shit just crashed X server every time. No desire to debug it.
[20:42:06] <Lucifer_arma> I was running xfce on my tv for awhile and had a few kde apps on there
[20:42:32] <Lucifer_arma> hmmm, I'll bet it was hardware acceleration
[20:42:35] <sinewav> Krita is a little better for painting than Gimp, however, Gimp 2.10 borrowed heavily from Krita (they use a lot of the same source).
[20:42:59] <sinewav> They are almost comparable now.
[20:43:02] <Lucifer_arma> ah, I don't paint, so I wouldn't notice ;)
[20:43:35] <sinewav> yeah, paining is just *a little* different, and enough that Krita is more sensible.
[20:43:35] <Lucifer_arma> last thing I did with GIMP was cut out the floor from arma and turn it into something that could be tiled on a website so I could add it to armaunified
[20:43:45] <sinewav> lol...
[20:43:52] <Lucifer_arma> that turned out to be far easier than I expected, btw
[20:44:23] <Lucifer_arma> hey, while you're talking, did you look at the screenshots I made of the two wiki themes I'm working on?
[20:44:41] <Lucifer_arma> and yes, I'm pretty much at the point where I can push it all to a public server and let y'all check it out
[20:44:48] <Lucifer_arma> you know, interactively
[20:45:33] <Lucifer_arma> or you could get the sources from bzr and setup your own mediawiki installation and play with them.
[20:46:27] <sinewav> I'm aware you are working on the site, I haven't had time to check the forums and see anything. I hope to carve out some time tomorrow.
[20:47:05] <sinewav> (got a small list of things I need to do today).
[20:48:26] <Lucifer_arma> ah.  I updated the old theme, scratching a few itches in the process, and pushed the armaunified wiki theme pretty much to completion
[20:48:45] <Lucifer_arma> I don't know where lackadaisical was wanting to go from where it was, but I can't say it's finished until I've implemented it for phpbb and the main site
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[22:29:33] <ct|kyle> sinewav: yes, KDE fedora
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