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Log from 2016-03-20:
Mar 20 01:24:28 2016 <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1065 Checks if colours exist in the message and removes them all ...
Mar 20 01:46:07 2016 <AmarokNelg> !command
Mar 20 01:47:03 2016 <AmarokNelg> !command
Mar 20 01:47:09 2016 * nelg-bot (~nelg-bot@unaffiliated/amaroknelg/bot/nelg-bot) has joined #armagetron
Mar 20 01:47:12 2016 <AmarokNelg> !command
Mar 20 01:47:14 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: Command not specified
Mar 20 01:47:16 2016 <AmarokNelg> !command PLAYERS_SHOOTING_SETTINGS
Mar 20 01:47:17 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: Not a valid command: PLAYERS_SHOOTING_SETTINGS
Mar 20 01:47:21 2016 <AmarokNelg> !cmddocs PLAYERS_SHOOTING_SETTINGS
Mar 20 01:47:22 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: I couldn't recognize that command. Please see !commands
Mar 20 01:47:25 2016 <AmarokNelg> !cmddoc
Mar 20 01:47:26 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: There are no blank commands...
Mar 20 01:47:28 2016 <AmarokNelg> !cmddoc PLAYERS_SHOOTING_SETTINGS
Mar 20 01:47:28 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: No documentation found for command PLAYERS_SHOOTING_SETTINGS! Perhaps this command is invalid or just simpily has no documentation written for it?
Mar 20 01:47:31 2016 <AmarokNelg> eh
Mar 20 01:47:35 2016 <AmarokNelg> !command SHOOT
Mar 20 01:47:35 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: SHOOT
Mar 20 01:47:38 2016 <AmarokNelg> !command SH
Mar 20 01:47:38 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: 82 commands matching SH: ACCESS_LEVEL_SHOUT, ACCESS_LEVEL_SHUFFLE_UP, CUSTOM_SHORTHAND, CUSTOM_SHORTHAND_CONNECTION, CUSTOM_SHORTHAND_ENABLED, CYCLE_ACCEL_SLINGSHOT, CYCLE_ACCEL_SLINGSHOT_OVERRIDE, CYCLE_DIST_WALL_SHRINK, CYCLE_DIST_WALL_SHRINK_OFFSET, CYCLE_RUBBER_WALL_SHRINK, CYCLE_RUBBER_WALL_SHRINK_OVERRIDE, CYCLE_SMOOTH_THRESHOLD, DEATH_SHOT, DEFAULT_SHOUT_PLAYER, DEFAULT_SHOUT_SPECTATOR, FINISH_TYPE, FONT_SMAL
Mar 20 01:47:38 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:FONT_SMALL_THRESHOLD_WIDTH, HASH_METHOD_BLACKLIST, LADDERLOG_WRITE_BALL_VANISH, LADDERLOG_WRITE_DEATH_DEATHSHOT, LADDERLOG_WRITE_DEATH_SHOT_FRAG, LADDERLOG_WRITE_DEATH_SHOT_SUICIDE, LADDERLOG_WRITE_DEATH_SHOT_TEAMKILL, LADDERLOG_WRITE_QUEUE_FINISHED, LADDERLOG_WRITE_ROUND_FINISHED, LADDERLOG_WRITE_SHUTDOWN, LADDERLOG_WRITE_ZONE_SHOT_RELEASED, LAG_FREQUENCY_THRESHOLD, LAG_O_METER_THRESHOLD, LAG_THRESHOLD,
Mar 20 01:47:38 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:MEGA_SHOT_DIR, MEGA_SHOT_EXPLOSION, MEGA_SHOT_MULT, MEGA_SHOT_THRESH, RACE_FINISH_COLLAPSE, RACE_FINISH_KILL, RACE_LOG_UNFINISHED, RACE_NUM_RANKS_SHOW_END, RACE_NUM_RANKS_SHOW_START, RACE_POINTS_TYPE, RACE_RANKS_SHOW_END, RACE_RANKS_SHOW_START, RACE_RANK_SHOW_LENGTH, RACE_RANK_SHOW_PLAYER_LENGTH, SCORE_DEATH_SHOT, SCORE_RACE_FINISH, SCORE_SHOT, SCORE_SHOT_BASE, SCORE_SHOT_SUICIDE, SELF_DESTRUCT_VANISH,
Mar 20 01:47:39 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:SHOT_BASE_ENEMY_RESPAWN, SHOT_BASE_RESPAWN, SHOT_COLLISION, SHOT_DISCARD_TIME, SHOT_EXPLOSION, SHOT_KILL_ENEMIES, SHOT_KILL_INVULNERABLE, SHOT_KILL_SELF, SHOT_KILL_VANISH, SHOT_PENETRATE_WALLS, SHOT_RADIUS_MAX, SHOT_RADIUS_MIN, SHOT_ROT_MAX, SHOT_ROT_MIN, SHOT_SEEK_UPDATE_TIME, SHOT_START_DIST, SHOT_THRESH, SHOT_VELOCITY_MULT, SHOT_WALL_BOUNCE, SHOW_FPS, SHOW_OWN_NAME, SHUFFLE_SPAM_MESSAGES_PER_ROUND,
Mar 20 01:47:39 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:SHUTDOWN, SHUTDOWN_STOP, SHUTDOWN_TIMEOUT, SMOOTH_SHADING, SOCCER_BALL_SHOTS_WIN, SOUND_BUFFER_SHIFT, SP_FINISH_TYPE, ZOMBIE_ZONE_SHOOT, ZOMBIE_ZONE_VANISH, ,
Mar 20 01:47:54 2016 <AmarokNelg> !command SHO
Mar 20 01:47:55 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: 57 commands matching SHO: ACCESS_LEVEL_SHOUT, CUSTOM_SHORTHAND, CUSTOM_SHORTHAND_CONNECTION, CUSTOM_SHORTHAND_ENABLED, CYCLE_ACCEL_SLINGSHOT, CYCLE_ACCEL_SLINGSHOT_OVERRIDE, CYCLE_SMOOTH_THRESHOLD, DEATH_SHOT, DEFAULT_SHOUT_PLAYER, DEFAULT_SHOUT_SPECTATOR, FONT_SMALL_THRESHOLD_HEIGHT, FONT_SMALL_THRESHOLD_WIDTH, LADDERLOG_WRITE_DEATH_DEATHSHOT, LADDERLOG_WRITE_DEATH_SHOT_FRAG, LADDERLOG_WRITE_DEATH_SHOT_SUICIDE, LAD
Mar 20 01:47:55 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:LADDERLOG_WRITE_ZONE_SHOT_RELEASED, LAG_FREQUENCY_THRESHOLD, LAG_O_METER_THRESHOLD, LAG_THRESHOLD, MEGA_SHOT_DIR, MEGA_SHOT_EXPLOSION, MEGA_SHOT_MULT, MEGA_SHOT_THRESH, RACE_NUM_RANKS_SHOW_END, RACE_NUM_RANKS_SHOW_START, RACE_RANKS_SHOW_END, RACE_RANKS_SHOW_START, RACE_RANK_SHOW_LENGTH, RACE_RANK_SHOW_PLAYER_LENGTH, SCORE_DEATH_SHOT, SCORE_SHOT, SCORE_SHOT_BASE, SCORE_SHOT_SUICIDE, SHOT_BASE_ENEMY_RESPAWN,
Mar 20 01:47:55 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:SHOT_BASE_RESPAWN, SHOT_COLLISION, SHOT_DISCARD_TIME, SHOT_EXPLOSION, SHOT_KILL_ENEMIES, SHOT_KILL_INVULNERABLE, SHOT_KILL_SELF, SHOT_KILL_VANISH, SHOT_PENETRATE_WALLS, SHOT_RADIUS_MAX, SHOT_RADIUS_MIN, SHOT_ROT_MAX, SHOT_ROT_MIN, SHOT_SEEK_UPDATE_TIME, SHOT_START_DIST, SHOT_THRESH, SHOT_VELOCITY_MULT, SHOT_WALL_BOUNCE, SHOW_FPS, SHOW_OWN_NAME, SOCCER_BALL_SHOTS_WIN, ZOMBIE_ZONE_SHOOT, ,
Mar 20 01:48:18 2016 <AmarokNelg> man...
Mar 20 03:46:23 2016 * sinewav (~Thunderbi@ip68-7-71-95.sd.sd.cox.net) has joined #armagetron
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Mar 20 06:55:44 2016 <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad-work] r1583 Increased default rim wall colors to 1 to match 0.2.8 look,...
Mar 20 08:44:51 2016 * ct|kyle (~kyle@172.79.11.100) has joined #armagetron
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Mar 20 12:06:42 2016 <\u03b5> Lucifer_arma: http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtopic.php?p=289545#p289545 found it if you want a bookmark on it
Mar 20 13:18:51 2016 * Lucifer_arma has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
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Mar 20 16:21:30 2016 <Lucifer_arma> \u03b5: thanks, bookmarked so I can go back to it
Mar 20 16:41:10 2016 <Lucifer_arma> ]ping
Mar 20 16:41:10 2016 <ljrbot> pong
Mar 20 16:45:25 2016 * Lucifer_arma has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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Mar 20 17:03:12 2016 <AmarokNelg> !command CA
Mar 20 17:03:12 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: 73 commands matching CA: AXES_INDICATOR, BALL_SPEED_DECAY, CAMERA_CUSTOM_BACK, CAMERA_CUSTOM_BACK_FROMSPEED, CAMERA_CUSTOM_PITCH, CAMERA_CUSTOM_RISE, CAMERA_CUSTOM_RISE_FROMSPEED, CAMERA_CUSTOM_TURN_SPEED, CAMERA_CUSTOM_TURN_SPEED_180, CAMERA_CUSTOM_ZOOM, CAMERA_FOLLOW_START_X, CAMERA_FOLLOW_START_Y, CAMERA_FOLLOW_START_Z, CAMERA_FORBID_CUSTOM, CAMERA_FORBID_CUSTOM_GLANCE, CAMERA_FORBID_FOLLOW, CAMERA_FORBID_FREE, C
Mar 20 17:03:12 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:CAMERA_FORBID_SERVER_CUSTOM, CAMERA_FORBID_SMART, CAMERA_FREE_START_X, CAMERA_FREE_START_Y, CAMERA_FREE_START_Z, CAMERA_GLANCE_BACK, CAMERA_GLANCE_BACK_FROMSPEED, CAMERA_GLANCE_PITCH, CAMERA_GLANCE_RISE, CAMERA_GLANCE_RISE_FROMSPEED, CAMERA_IN_TURN_SPEED, CAMERA_OVERRIDE_CUSTOM_GLANCE, CAMERA_OVERRIDE_CUSTOM_GLANCE_SERVER_CUSTOM, CAMERA_SERVER_CUSTOM_BACK, CAMERA_SERVER_CUSTOM_BACK_FROMSPEED, CAMERA_SERVER_CUSTOM_PIT
Mar 20 17:03:12 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:CAMERA_SERVER_CUSTOM_RISE, CAMERA_SERVER_CUSTOM_RISE_FROMSPEED, CAMERA_SERVER_CUSTOM_TURN_SPEED, CAMERA_SERVER_CUSTOM_TURN_SPEED_180, CAMERA_SERVER_GLANCE_BACK, CAMERA_SERVER_GLANCE_BACK_FROMSPEED, CAMERA_SERVER_GLANCE_PITCH, CAMERA_SERVER_GLANCE_RISE, CAMERA_SERVER_GLANCE_RISE_FROMSPEED, CAMERA_SMART_START_X, CAMERA_SMART_START_Y, CAMERA_SMART_START_Z, CAMERA_VISIBILITY_CLIP_SPEED, CAMERA_VISIBILITY_EXTENSION,
Mar 20 17:03:13 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:CAMERA_VISIBILITY_LOWER_WALL, CAMERA_VISIBILITY_LOWER_WALL_SMART, CAMERA_VISIBILITY_RECOVERY_SPEED, CAMERA_VISIBILITY_SIDESKEW, CAMERA_VISIBILITY_WALL_DISTANCE, CASACL, CHATBOT_DECAY, CYCLE_SPEED_DECAY_ABOVE, CYCLE_SPEED_DECAY_ABOVE_OVERRIDE, CYCLE_SPEED_DECAY_BELOW, CYCLE_SPEED_DECAY_BELOW_OVERRIDE, DEDICATED_FPS, DEDICATED_FPS_IDLE_FACTOR, DEDICATED_IDLE, ENABLE_FRIENDS_CASING, FORTRESS_CONQUEST_DECAY_RATE,
Mar 20 17:03:13 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:LADDERLOG_WRITE_TACTICAL_POSITION, LADDERLOG_WRITE_TACTICAL_STATISTICS, LAG_O_METER_SCALE, LOCAL_TEAM, LOCAL_USER, SHOT_DISCARD_TIME, VOTES_CANCEL, VOTING_DECAY, VOTING_START_DECAY, ,
Mar 20 17:03:22 2016 <AmarokNelg> !command AL
Mar 20 17:03:23 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: 134 commands matching AL
Mar 20 17:04:20 2016 <AmarokNelg> !command CO
Mar 20 17:04:20 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: 179 commands matching CO
Mar 20 17:08:07 2016 * Lucifer_arma has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
Mar 20 17:13:41 2016 * Lucifer_arma (~Lucifer_a@cpe-66-68-59-243.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #armagetron
Mar 20 17:28:11 2016 <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1066 The ability to paste text from clipboard has finally been im...
Mar 20 17:35:14 2016 <G5> What was that today? Two servers full of fort players ...
Mar 20 17:35:43 2016 <G5> Players like sunnygirl showing up. She wasn't on for a year, I guess
Mar 20 17:43:14 2016 * Hub_ (1866e117@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.102.225.23) has joined #armagetron
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Mar 20 18:16:45 2016 <Blazehex> hey
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Mar 20 18:28:26 2016 <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-armagetronad-sty+ct+ap] r1067 Added in missing language file entries for the console comma...
Mar 20 19:12:52 2016 * CDToon has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
Mar 20 20:09:15 2016 <Lucifer_arma> hm. Would it be faster to download Stargate SG-1, or to rip the DVDs? (I have all 10 seasons on DVD)
Mar 20 20:15:24 2016 <sinewav> Download.
Mar 20 20:39:15 2016 <ct|kyle> but will the download be as good of qulity as the rip?
Mar 20 20:47:44 2016 <Lucifer_arma> dunno. I can tweak the quality by ripping by hand.
Mar 20 20:48:06 2016 <AmarokNelg> ct|kyle: depends whether you're downloading compressed files or not
Mar 20 20:48:17 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I can also do things like make sure it's 720p, because that's what my TV is
Mar 20 20:49:06 2016 <Lucifer_arma> well, I'd want them already rescaled for my TV, and otherwise pretty aggressive compression since they'll be streamed over the LAN
Mar 20 20:49:40 2016 <ct|kyle> glad i could help add another variable into that question :P
Mar 20 20:50:03 2016 <AmarokNelg> technically you can watch 1080p videos on a 720p screen, you just wont see the extra pixels
Mar 20 20:50:11 2016 <Lucifer_arma> heh, well, depending on how old the torrent is, it may already be 720p
Mar 20 20:50:33 2016 <Lucifer_arma> AmarokNelg: yeah, but file sizes vary quite a bit between the two, and I'd rather not have the additional post-processing needed to rescale on the fly
Mar 20 20:51:05 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm actually reading up on a python media library in the hopes of coming up with a script that will automatically find vids that could be better optimized for my setup
Mar 20 20:51:06 2016 <ct|kyle> just get 4k blurays and rip :P
Mar 20 20:51:45 2016 <AmarokNelg> also, you do realize a 720p TV is actually lower res than most modern computer monitors? just wanted to throw that out...
Mar 20 20:52:16 2016 <Lucifer_arma> no bluray drive, heh
Mar 20 20:52:26 2016 <ct|kyle> I think i have 1 of each :P 720, 1080 and 4k :P
Mar 20 20:52:30 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I priced one, though. To get the IDE->SATA adapter and an actual drive would be about $50
Mar 20 20:52:56 2016 <AmarokNelg> your brotherboard is out of date if it doesn't support sata
Mar 20 20:53:41 2016 <ct|kyle> what board should i get to learn real time embeded linux? (no specific project, just to learn)
Mar 20 20:54:01 2016 <Lucifer_arma> no shit, sherlock
Mar 20 20:54:01 2016 <Lucifer_arma> actually, it has two sata interfaces on it, and one ide interface
Mar 20 20:54:01 2016 <Lucifer_arma> the two sata interfaces are already taken by hard drives, so the bluray has to plug into the ide interface
Mar 20 20:54:05 2016 <Lucifer_arma> raspberry PI?
Mar 20 20:54:35 2016 <AmarokNelg> !calc pi()
Mar 20 20:54:38 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: 3.14159265358979323846
Mar 20 20:54:46 2016 <AmarokNelg> ]calc pi
Mar 20 20:54:46 2016 <ljrbot> AmarokNelg: 3.14159265359
Mar 20 20:54:51 2016 <AmarokNelg> !oldcalc pi()
Mar 20 20:54:52 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406286208998628034825342117067
Mar 20 20:54:59 2016 * Lucifer_arma needs to finish putting his new media center PC back together
Mar 20 20:56:18 2016 <AmarokNelg> isn't it funny the oldcalc's pi has more accuracy than either of the better calculators
Mar 20 20:56:58 2016 <ct|kyle> ]calc year()
Mar 20 20:56:58 2016 <ljrbot> ct|kyle: Error: 'year' is not a defined function.
Mar 20 20:57:05 2016 <AmarokNelg> !calc year()
Mar 20 20:57:06 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:Function "year" is undefined Error in commands
Mar 20 20:57:06 2016 <ct|kyle> !calc year()
Mar 20 20:57:07 2016 <nelg-bot> ct|kyle:Function "year" is undefined Error in commands
Mar 20 20:57:19 2016 <ct|kyle> noone defiend what a year is :/
Mar 20 20:57:25 2016 <AmarokNelg> !oldcalc year()
Mar 20 20:57:25 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: Runtime error (func=(main), adr=2): Function year not defined.
Mar 20 20:57:36 2016 <AmarokNelg> !date
Mar 20 20:57:36 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: I couldn't recognize that command. Please see !commands
Mar 20 20:57:38 2016 <AmarokNelg> !time
Mar 20 20:57:38 2016 <Long_Shoota> Syntax: !time <timezone>. Valid Timezones: NOM HAW ALA PST MST CST EST EDT ADT GMT CET EET BT ZP4 ZP5 ZP6 WAST CCT JST EAST NZT
Mar 20 20:57:38 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: It is currently 12:57:38 AM (UTC) on Monday, 21st of March in 2016
Mar 20 20:57:45 2016 <AmarokNelg> well, that knows its 2016
Mar 20 20:58:50 2016 <AmarokNelg> !calc define year()
Mar 20 20:58:51 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:Left brace or equals sign expected for function Error in commands
Mar 20 20:58:55 2016 <AmarokNelg> !calc define year() {}
Mar 20 20:58:56 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: Input/Output error! Please check your math expression.
Mar 20 20:59:02 2016 <AmarokNelg> !calc define year() { print '2016'; }
Mar 20 20:59:03 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: Input/Output error! Please check your math expression.
Mar 20 20:59:13 2016 <AmarokNelg> !calc define year()='2016';
Mar 20 20:59:14 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: Input/Output error! Please check your math expression.
Mar 20 20:59:17 2016 <AmarokNelg> !calc define year='2016';
Mar 20 20:59:18 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:Left parenthesis expected for function Error in commands
Mar 20 20:59:22 2016 <Lucifer_arma> ]ping
Mar 20 20:59:22 2016 <ljrbot> pong
Mar 20 21:00:18 2016 <AmarokNelg> !calc function
Mar 20 21:00:18 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:"function" is undefined Error in commands
Mar 20 21:00:22 2016 <AmarokNelg> !calc define
Mar 20 21:00:22 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:Function name was expected Error in commands
Mar 20 21:00:25 2016 <AmarokNelg> !calc define year()
Mar 20 21:00:26 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:Left brace or equals sign expected for function Error in commands
Mar 20 21:00:28 2016 <AmarokNelg> !calc define year() =
Mar 20 21:00:29 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: Input/Output error! Please check your math expression.
Mar 20 21:00:39 2016 <AmarokNelg> !calc define year()=2016
Mar 20 21:00:39 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: Input/Output error! Please check your math expression.
Mar 20 21:00:44 2016 <AmarokNelg> !calc define year()=2016; year()
Mar 20 21:00:45 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: 2016
Mar 20 21:00:49 2016 <AmarokNelg> !calc year()
Mar 20 21:00:50 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:Function "year" is undefined Error in commands
Mar 20 21:00:53 2016 <AmarokNelg> meh it's forgetful
Mar 20 21:02:49 2016 <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: looks like the pis is not the greatest for RTOS
Mar 20 21:02:56 2016 <ct|kyle> pi*
Mar 20 21:03:30 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I don't have any idea. I still haven't gotten a solid definition of "real-time" that differentiates it from anything else, to be honest
Mar 20 21:03:45 2016 <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: https://www.socallinuxexpo.org/sites/default/files/presentations/Steven_Doran_SCALE_13x.pdf
Mar 20 21:04:02 2016 <ct|kyle> that is actually pretty good (I am trying to learn)
Mar 20 21:04:46 2016 <Lucifer_arma> ]ping
Mar 20 21:04:47 2016 <ljrbot> pong
Mar 20 21:05:45 2016 <Lucifer_arma> yay, mencoder's Trem is finally dropping. It's at 75 minutes (first pass)
Mar 20 21:33:32 2016 * Lucifer_arma has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
Mar 20 21:34:18 2016 * Lucifer_arma (~Lucifer_a@cpe-66-68-59-243.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #armagetron
Mar 20 22:16:11 2016 <Lucifer_arma> wooo, 10 minutes until the first pass is over
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View entire month
is a site that has tools, maps, and other various items. It orignally only existed as a server control panel, but I slowly began adding stuff such as a homepage and tools.
----
This is an LLM-free zone. In general, I am unwilling to use (fight with) any form of "GenAI" to write code for me. So, for the forseeable future, everything on this site will continue to be written by a very silly goose (wait that's me honk honk) with some parts written by other humans as well (silly hu-mon) rather than any plausible-series-of-words token-eating machine. Even my libraries are out of date, and suddenly that's a good thing!
(Although the style has changed several times and content has been added and changed, the base of this site has barely been updated since 2015. But it Ain't Broke!)
This site is also occasionally tested with older browsers, but compatibility is not guarenteed. Although, if you have an old obscure browser and something isn't working that previously did, I guess you can tell me (nelg) about it...
Gridder
.