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[2023-09-01 08:09:40] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| @zman_0 Lucifer_arma take a look at this: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/742789790872764446/1146937804429983906/2023-08-31T18-26-52.mp4
[2023-09-01 08:09:40] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| @zman_0 Lucifer_arma take a look at this: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/742789790872764446/1146937804429983906/2023-08-31T18-26-52.mp4
[2023-09-01 08:09:40] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| This is exactly the prolem I'm talking about when I suggest smudging. In this instance, the server appears to be ignoring Nelg's turns because they don't make sense to the server - hence the phantom tail. Smudging would make this environment a little more permissive, forcing the server to adjust what walls it knows about to better fit what the client understands.
[2023-09-01 08:09:41] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| This is exactly the prolem I'm talking about when I suggest smudging. In this instance, the server appears to be ignoring Nelg's turns because they don't make sense to the server - hence the phantom tail. Smudging would make this environment a little more permissive, forcing the server to adjust what walls it knows about to better fit what the client understands.
[2023-09-01 08:09:41] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| However, it's equally true that firehosing would help here. What remains to be seen is just *how much* it will do so
[2023-09-01 08:09:42] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| However, it's equally true that firehosing would help here. What remains to be seen is just *how much* it will do so
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[2023-09-01 12:49:14] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:staybased_| it's not a bug it's a feature
[2023-09-01 12:49:15] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:staybased_| it's not a bug it's a feature
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[2023-09-01 23:02:12] <Lucifer_arma> @delinquent: That looks like basic packet loss.  I couldn't see the ping and didn't zoom in to look more closely, but if there's also a high ping, then that's what you're going to see
[2023-09-01 23:02:13] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| @delinquent: That looks like basic packet loss.  I couldn't see the ping and didn't zoom in to look more closely, but if there's also a high ping, then that's what you're going to see
[2023-09-01 23:02:46] <Lucifer_arma> It looks like the other cycles were being synced fine, because there were no artifacts there, so likely it's nelg's upstream that's the issue
[2023-09-01 23:02:47] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| It looks like the other cycles were being synced fine, because there were no artifacts there, so likely it's nelg's upstream that's the issue
[2023-09-01 23:03:15] <Lucifer_arma> is there a debug recording, by any chance?  I'd be curious what the server recorded vs what the client recorded
[2023-09-01 23:03:16] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| is there a debug recording, by any chance?  I'd be curious what the server recorded vs what the client recorded
[2023-09-01 23:04:02] <Lucifer_arma> first thing I'd check: did the server get every move?  second: what was the delay?
[2023-09-01 23:04:03] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| first thing I'd check: did the server get every move?  second: what was the delay?
[2023-09-01 23:04:57] <Lucifer_arma> overall, that's a really tough situation to correct for, because if the client's outgoing messages are taking a long time to get to the server, there's no amount of looking ahead that can help recover from it.
[2023-09-01 23:04:58] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| overall, that's a really tough situation to correct for, because if the client's outgoing messages are taking a long time to get to the server, there's no amount of looking ahead that can help recover from it.
[2023-09-01 23:06:12] <Lucifer_arma> so looking at timestamps, and keeping in mind that client timestamps aren't trustworthy, if we send both the wall in front of nelg in these situations and the timestamp for their creation, the server can look at its own grid and compare 
[2023-09-01 23:06:13] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so looking at timestamps, and keeping in mind that client timestamps aren't trustworthy, if we send both the wall in front of nelg in these situations and the timestamp for their creation, the server can look at its own grid and compare
[2023-09-01 23:07:11] <Lucifer_arma> so, if the client says "I was 4 meters from the wall when I turned left, the wall was created at <this timestamp>", and the server receives the turn after the cycle has driven right past the wall, then the server can understand the player was trying to avoid the wall
[2023-09-01 23:07:11] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so, if the client says "I was 4 meters from the wall when I turned left, the wall was created at <this timestamp>", and the server receives the turn after the cycle has driven right past the wall, then the server can understand the player was trying to avoid the wall
[2023-09-01 23:07:59] <Lucifer_arma> since the server creates game objects, the timestamp sent for the wall creation should match the server's timestamp, except in the (frequent) case of walls the client created itself that the server maybe hasn't created yet
[2023-09-01 23:08:00] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| since the server creates game objects, the timestamp sent for the wall creation should match the server's timestamp, except in the (frequent) case of walls the client created itself that the server maybe hasn't created yet
[2023-09-01 23:09:04] <Lucifer_arma> an argument could be made here that the client's relative timestamps is reliable and the walls can go ahead and be created in the same formation the client made them, but it would still be trivial to hack the client to send interesting wall formations to the server
[2023-09-01 23:09:04] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| an argument could be made here that the client's relative timestamps is reliable and the walls can go ahead and be created in the same formation the client made them, but it would still be trivial to hack the client to send interesting wall formations to the server
[2023-09-01 23:09:58] <Lucifer_arma> naturally, the balance here is "reliable network" vs "stopping cheaters", and my inclination is to lean towards what gives the most reliable simulation first, network second, and let moderators and vote polls handle the cheaters
[2023-09-01 23:09:58] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| naturally, the balance here is "reliable network" vs "stopping cheaters", and my inclination is to lean towards what gives the most reliable simulation first, network second, and let moderators and vote polls handle the cheaters
[2023-09-01 23:11:36] <Lucifer_arma> the biggest issue for the server is deciding what to do with the client's moves after it's determined the player did indeed see the wall with enough time to react.  The whole point of rubber is to make it so the server doesn't have to make this decision, instead the time it takes for a collision to occur is artificially stretched to allow for network latency
[2023-09-01 23:11:38] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| the biggest issue for the server is deciding what to do with the client's moves after it's determined the player did indeed see the wall with enough time to react.  The whole point of rubber is to make it so the server doesn't have to make this decision, instead the time it takes for a collision to occur is artificially stretched to allow for network latency
[2023-09-01 23:12:15] <Lucifer_arma> so what does the server do if it can determine for certain that the player was trying to avoid the wall?  What about the player right next to them that was reacting to the player *not* turning because the server didn't know they were turning?
[2023-09-01 23:12:15] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so what does the server do if it can determine for certain that the player was trying to avoid the wall?  What about the player right next to them that was reacting to the player *not* turning because the server didn't know they were turning?
[2023-09-01 23:12:42] <Lucifer_arma> I don't see a situation where the server should cancel a player's move, but if the player's move never reaches the server, then the network has canceled it, effectively
[2023-09-01 23:12:43] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I don't see a situation where the server should cancel a player's move, but if the player's move never reaches the server, then the network has canceled it, effectively
[2023-09-01 23:13:53] <Lucifer_arma> so, at one point in the recording, you can see that the server is receiving the moves, and responding accordingly, but the delay is visible.  That's when the wall sliding to the right happens.  If you look closely, you can see that the moves are correct relative to each other, the only thing the server did was slide them to the right a few squares
[2023-09-01 23:13:53] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so, at one point in the recording, you can see that the server is receiving the moves, and responding accordingly, but the delay is visible.  That's when the wall sliding to the right happens.  If you look closely, you can see that the moves are correct relative to each other, the only thing the server did was slide them to the right a few squares
[2023-09-01 23:14:37] <Lucifer_arma> even my proposed "what's in front of the cycle" routine would have that effect, I imagine
[2023-09-01 23:14:37] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| even my proposed "what's in front of the cycle" routine would have that effect, I imagine
[2023-09-01 23:16:35] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: how does arma determine when to re-send messages?  Would it be sensible to have a different interval to re-send player commands vs. other messages?
[2023-09-01 23:16:36] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Z-Man: how does arma determine when to re-send messages?  Would it be sensible to have a different interval to re-send player commands vs. other messages?
[2023-09-01 23:17:37] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| also, last time we went into detail here, you told me that there wasn't a "state sync" message ever.  Would it be sensible to make such a message and send it, say, every 100 milliseconds?  That would be a variation on @delinquent's firehose idea
[2023-09-01 23:17:48] <Lucifer_arma> also, last time we went into detail here, you told me that there wasn't a "state sync" message ever.  Would it be sensible to make such a message and send it, say, every 100 milliseconds?  That would be a variation on @delinquent's firehose idea
[2023-09-01 23:18:26] <Lucifer_arma> ok, back to my acklist problems.  I should write a country song about my acklist issues
[2023-09-01 23:18:26] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| ok, back to my acklist problems.  I should write a country song about my acklist issues

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