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[2023-08-20 03:58:24] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "Armagetron Advanced | http://www.armagetronad.org/ | Welcome to IRC"
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[2023-08-20 08:25:37] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:gog| How do you make a bot? Like what files do you edit? Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask!
[2023-08-20 08:25:37] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:gog| How do you make a bot? Like what files do you edit? Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask!
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[2023-08-20 10:41:52] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| A bot for tron? The values that correspond to how the default armagetron bot behaves are in `%programdir%/config/aiplayers.cfg`, `/etc/games/armagetronad/aiplayers.cfg`, or `<installdir>/servers/<servername>/config/aiplayers.cfg`, depending on whether you have a Windows client, Linux client, or server installation.
[2023-08-20 10:41:52] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| A bot for tron? The values that correspond to how the default armagetron bot behaves are in `%programdir%/config/aiplayers.cfg`, `/etc/games/armagetronad/aiplayers.cfg`, or `<installdir>/servers/<servername>/config/aiplayers.cfg`, depending on whether you have a Windows client, Linux client, or server installation.
[2023-08-20 10:57:48] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > fragmentation
[2023-08-20 10:57:48] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > fragmentation
[2023-08-20 10:57:48] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| I honestly thought I was seeing the result of packet fragmentation, but it turns out I was wrong abotu how MTU is approached. I was assuming that fragmentation occurred when throughput was low enough to make transporting larger unit sizes infeasible, but in actual fact it only occurs when the unit exceeds the MTU size of the infrastructure transporting it. The majority of the int <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 10:57:49] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| I honestly thought I was seeing the result of packet fragmentation, but it turns out I was wrong abotu how MTU is approached. I was assuming that fragmentation occurred when throughput was low enough to make transporting larger unit sizes infeasible, but in actual fact it only occurs when the unit exceeds the MTU size of the infrastructure transporting it. The majority of the int <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 10:57:49] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| ernet appears to have adopted the MTU size of PPPoE specifications, being 1492 (or was it 1472? I forget, it's actually 1500 but there's some overhead for ipsec and other stuff), so the max-in/out rates actually don't matter so much. I have, though, set them to 1k on my machines, since that's 1k *per client*. Also, apparently using MAX_IN_RATE and MAX_OUT_RATE in the server confi <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 10:57:50] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| ernet appears to have adopted the MTU size of PPPoE specifications, being 1492 (or was it 1472? I forget, it's actually 1500 but there's some overhead for ipsec and other stuff), so the max-in/out rates actually don't matter so much. I have, though, set them to 1k on my machines, since that's 1k *per client*. Also, apparently using MAX_IN_RATE and MAX_OUT_RATE in the server confi <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 10:57:51] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| g actually affects the clients that connect to that server, rather than the server itself - so... iunno? We'll see. 
[2023-08-20 10:57:51] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| g actually affects the clients that connect to that server, rather than the server itself - so... iunno? We'll see. 
[2023-08-20 10:57:52] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent|     uMenuItemInt in_rate (&net_menu,"$network_opts_inrate_text", "$network_opts_inrate_help", sn_maxRateIn,3,64);
[2023-08-20 10:57:52] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent|     uMenuItemInt in_rate (&net_menu,"$network_opts_inrate_text", "$network_opts_inrate_help", sn_maxRateIn,3,64);
[2023-08-20 10:57:53] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent|     
[2023-08-20 10:57:54] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent|     
[2023-08-20 10:57:55] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Funnily enough I don't remember seeing a network selection option in the menu. I've transported my tron config from machin to machine for a good decade or so now.
[2023-08-20 10:57:55] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Funnily enough I don't remember seeing a network selection option in the menu. I've transported my tron config from machin to machine for a good decade or so now.
[2023-08-20 10:57:58] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > wifi
[2023-08-20 10:57:59] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > wifi
[2023-08-20 10:57:59] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Fat chance. Wireless is congested as fuck, there's a reason we don't really offer much beyond "get ethernet" to someone experiencing issues over wifi.
[2023-08-20 10:57:59] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Fat chance. Wireless is congested as fuck, there's a reason we don't really offer much beyond "get ethernet" to someone experiencing issues over wifi.
[2023-08-20 10:58:05] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > SoC
[2023-08-20 10:58:05] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > SoC
[2023-08-20 10:58:05] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Yep, https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/
[2023-08-20 10:58:06] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Yep, https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/
[2023-08-20 10:58:06] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| But it's Google. You really wanna poke THAT bear? They're pretty evil as big corps go.
[2023-08-20 10:58:07] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| But it's Google. You really wanna poke THAT bear? They're pretty evil as big corps go.
[2023-08-20 10:58:12] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > several game grids
[2023-08-20 10:58:12] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > several game grids
[2023-08-20 10:58:12] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| So multiple servers under one running process? Might be worth looking into. I'd strongly suggest making it a toggleable option, though - so that we can still do the traditional multi-server configuration with screen. Prolly need to look at making sure it's all memory safe too, it would be rather unfortunate if the deletion of one grid could result in the deletion of a different grid.
[2023-08-20 10:58:13] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| So multiple servers under one running process? Might be worth looking into. I'd strongly suggest making it a toggleable option, though - so that we can still do the traditional multi-server configuration with screen. Prolly need to look at making sure it's all memory safe too, it would be rather unfortunate if the deletion of one grid could result in the deletion of a different grid.
[2023-08-20 11:55:18] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:gog| i was thinking of the bots some players use on classic submarine that can tunnel really well
[2023-08-20 11:55:18] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:gog| i was thinking of the bots some players use on classic submarine that can tunnel really well
[2023-08-20 11:55:38] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:gog| they turn on their chatbot and then that chatbot is much harder to kill than a regular chatbot
[2023-08-20 11:55:39] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:gog| they turn on their chatbot and then that chatbot is much harder to kill than a regular chatbot
[2023-08-20 11:56:02] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:gog| like the one lovebug uses
[2023-08-20 11:56:02] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:gog| like the one lovebug uses
[2023-08-20 11:57:24] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Oh, for that all you need do is adjust the bot's IQ - the default is 50, so bump it up a bit. Add `AI_IQ 75` to your server config. Theoretically that number is unlimited, although I think it's ultimately limited by the total possible size of a 32bit integer (or maybe 16bit? Iunno)
[2023-08-20 11:57:24] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Oh, for that all you need do is adjust the bot's IQ - the default is 50, so bump it up a bit. Add `AI_IQ 75` to your server config. Theoretically that number is unlimited, although I think it's ultimately limited by the total possible size of a 32bit integer (or maybe 16bit? Iunno)
[2023-08-20 11:58:28] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| You can also enable a sort of "learning" feature, whereby the sserver will adjust your bot IQ levels each round - for that, use `AUTO_IQ 1` - set it to 0 to turn it off
[2023-08-20 11:58:28] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| You can also enable a sort of "learning" feature, whereby the sserver will adjust your bot IQ levels each round - for that, use `AUTO_IQ 1` - set it to 0 to turn it off
[2023-08-20 11:59:02] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:gog| ah i see, thanks a lot
[2023-08-20 11:59:03] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:gog| ah i see, thanks a lot
[2023-08-20 11:59:03] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:gog| any way to deal directly with how the bot decides when to turn?
[2023-08-20 11:59:03] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:gog| any way to deal directly with how the bot decides when to turn?
[2023-08-20 12:00:00] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Not really, although you might try mucking around with the settings in `aiconfig`. The only other way to do that is to build your own bot, by evaluating the console output of your server
[2023-08-20 12:00:01] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Not really, although you might try mucking around with the settings in `aiconfig`. The only other way to do that is to build your own bot, by evaluating the console output of your server
[2023-08-20 12:00:26] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:gog| i see. cheers
[2023-08-20 12:00:26] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:gog| i see. cheers
[2023-08-20 12:22:02] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| I agree with Delinquent about Google, they have become evil (and incompetent) in their quest to take over the world. Steer clear.
[2023-08-20 12:22:03] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| I agree with Delinquent about Google, they have become evil (and incompetent) in their quest to take over the world. Steer clear.
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[2023-08-20 14:23:54] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Multiple Grids per Server: That would actually be one of my dreams 🙂 The original game structure, where you only have one life per round, was inspired by the Quake 2 mod "Rocket Arena"; deathmatches with constant respawns were the norm otherwise back then until Counterstrike came along. And Rocket Arena always had multiple games going on simultaneously on each server. They wou <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:23:55] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Multiple Grids per Server: That would actually be one of my dreams 🙂 The original game structure, where you only have one life per round, was inspired by the Quake 2 mod "Rocket Arena"; deathmatches with constant respawns were the norm otherwise back then until Counterstrike came along. And Rocket Arena always had multiple games going on simultaneously on each server. They wou <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:23:55] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| ld run maps that were divided into different zones. There would be one on one arenas, team arenas, last man standing arenas for multiple players, and larger pickup arenas where two teams of X players would try to eliminate each other. And you would switch between these arenas just like that, without leaving the server.
[2023-08-20 14:23:55] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| ld run maps that were divided into different zones. There would be one on one arenas, team arenas, last man standing arenas for multiple players, and larger pickup arenas where two teams of X players would try to eliminate each other. And you would switch between these arenas just like that, without leaving the server.
[2023-08-20 14:24:43] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| I mean, *technically* ctwf fulfils that criteria
[2023-08-20 14:24:44] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| I mean, *technically* ctwf fulfils that criteria
[2023-08-20 14:24:51] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| heh
[2023-08-20 14:24:52] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| heh
[2023-08-20 14:29:20] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| General use of multicore: Yeah, not currently worth it 🙂 Top latency contributors are the network (50 to 150 ms), the monitor's refresh (8 ms average latency minimum for 60 Hz operation and VSync, whatever you do; since we're not doing everything we can, it's currently more like 24 ms). Processing adds what? 5 ms tops on Lucifer's Raspi, I'd say.
[2023-08-20 14:29:20] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| General use of multicore: Yeah, not currently worth it 🙂 Top latency contributors are the network (50 to 150 ms), the monitor's refresh (8 ms average latency minimum for 60 Hz operation and VSync, whatever you do; since we're not doing everything we can, it's currently more like 24 ms). Processing adds what? 5 ms tops on Lucifer's Raspi, I'd say.
[2023-08-20 14:29:45] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| ctwf has different games at once????
[2023-08-20 14:29:45] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| ctwf has different games at once????
[2023-08-20 14:30:34] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| The one place where we can reduce latency right now would be the monitor. See, right now, the cycle goes: Read input, process input, render output, send to monitor, wait for refresh.
[2023-08-20 14:30:35] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| The one place where we can reduce latency right now would be the monitor. See, right now, the cycle goes: Read input, process input, render output, send to monitor, wait for refresh.
[2023-08-20 14:31:08] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| If processing and rendering is fast, and it is, most time is spent waiting for the refresh at the end. Instead, one could:
[2023-08-20 14:31:08] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| If processing and rendering is fast, and it is, most time is spent waiting for the refresh at the end. Instead, one could:
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[2023-08-20 14:39:47] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| You still don't get minimal latency between pressing the button and the actual display update, of course; there is little to be done about that. Even with VSync disabled, the bit of the monitor you are currently interested in only gets refreshed every so often. You could get minimal latency between the button press and the message getting sent to the server, though. Just, instead <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:39:47] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| You still don't get minimal latency between pressing the button and the actual display update, of course; there is little to be done about that. Even with VSync disabled, the bit of the monitor you are currently interested in only gets refreshed every so often. You could get minimal latency between the button press and the message getting sent to the server, though. Just, instead <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:39:47] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0|  of waiting, you just run the "process input, simulate, send to server" part of the loop without rendering. (I had forgotten the "send to server" bit before). With a tiny delay, maybe 1 ms, so you are not hogging your CPU, burning electricity.
[2023-08-20 14:39:48] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0|  of waiting, you just run the "process input, simulate, send to server" part of the loop without rendering. (I had forgotten the "send to server" bit before). With a tiny delay, maybe 1 ms, so you are not hogging your CPU, burning electricity.
[2023-08-20 14:44:43] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Lucifer, regarding Shared Objects: Yeah, that is a cool model too. You just have to work a lot with locks in the background, because you need to ensure that no two processes are writing at the same time, and nobody is reading while another process writes. That adds overhead, and risks deadlocks if not used carefully. In C++, it would be very easy to accidentally take two locks at <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:44:44] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Lucifer, regarding Shared Objects: Yeah, that is a cool model too. You just have to work a lot with locks in the background, because you need to ensure that no two processes are writing at the same time, and nobody is reading while another process writes. That adds overhead, and risks deadlocks if not used carefully. In C++, it would be very easy to accidentally take two locks at <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:44:44] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0|  the same time, but one after the other; another process may want to have the same objects, but in reverse order... not good. It is possible to guard against that, to enforce that every thread can only have one lock active at a time. (The enforcing is costly, but it probably suffice to only do it in debug mode).
[2023-08-20 14:44:44] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0|  the same time, but one after the other; another process may want to have the same objects, but in reverse order... not good. It is possible to guard against that, to enforce that every thread can only have one lock active at a time. (The enforcing is costly, but it probably suffice to only do it in debug mode).
[2023-08-20 14:46:10] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Bandwidth limits: The bandwidth settings do something, but there is a maximum amount of data the servers and clients actually want to send in every given situation, and if the limits are higher than that, they do nothing; all of the data is sent.
[2023-08-20 14:46:11] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Bandwidth limits: The bandwidth settings do something, but there is a maximum amount of data the servers and clients actually want to send in every given situation, and if the limits are higher than that, they do nothing; all of the data is sent.
[2023-08-20 14:47:16] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Firehosing, that is, sending each message multiple times before the ACKs even had a chance to arrive: We do it already if high packet loss is detected. It would not take much to make this a standard, configurable practice.
[2023-08-20 14:47:17] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Firehosing, that is, sending each message multiple times before the ACKs even had a chance to arrive: We do it already if high packet loss is detected. It would not take much to make this a standard, configurable practice.
[2023-08-20 14:48:17] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| I'm not sure right now, do the servers respect the clients bandwidth limits? I might not have bothered with that complication.
[2023-08-20 14:48:18] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| I'm not sure right now, do the servers respect the clients bandwidth limits? I might not have bothered with that complication.
[2023-08-20 14:53:14] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| As far as I'm aware, the server would have no choice but to accept those limitations, no? But at the same time, the server also sends that configuration *to* the client, if what I'm interpreting is correct. Without a specified config, it woud be subject to whatever data rate hte client is willing to accept, would it not? In any case, I very strongly recommend adding firehosing by <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:53:14] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| As far as I'm aware, the server would have no choice but to accept those limitations, no? But at the same time, the server also sends that configuration *to* the client, if what I'm interpreting is correct. Without a specified config, it woud be subject to whatever data rate hte client is willing to accept, would it not? In any case, I very strongly recommend adding firehosing by <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:53:14] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent|  default, and DSCP values of 101 applied to all armagetron traffic
[2023-08-20 14:53:14] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent|  default, and DSCP values of 101 applied to all armagetron traffic
[2023-08-20 16:05:25] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| It would be silly to have an configurable maximal input rate on the client if the sender would not respect it, now that I think more than half a second about it 🙂
[2023-08-20 16:05:25] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| It would be silly to have an configurable maximal input rate on the client if the sender would not respect it, now that I think more than half a second about it 🙂
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[2023-08-20 22:42:34] <Lucifer_arma> as far as multiple grids per server, I was thinking each grid would be in a separate process, but the networking would be in the parent process, routing objects to each subprocess as needed.  It sounds like that would create a choke point in the network, but I believe it would actually smooth the whole thing out
[2023-08-20 22:42:34] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| as far as multiple grids per server, I was thinking each grid would be in a separate process, but the networking would be in the parent process, routing objects to each subprocess as needed.  It sounds like that would create a choke point in the network, but I believe it would actually smooth the whole thing out
[2023-08-20 22:43:25] <Lucifer_arma> you'd need only one port for network communication.  With multiple ports, the kernel has to have buffers for each, and schedule polling each, and so forth.  With one, you only have the one, and as long as you poll it fast enough, you can move every message to your own arbitrarily-sized buffers
[2023-08-20 22:43:25] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| you'd need only one port for network communication.  With multiple ports, the kernel has to have buffers for each, and schedule polling each, and so forth.  With one, you only have the one, and as long as you poll it fast enough, you can move every message to your own arbitrarily-sized buffers
[2023-08-20 22:43:47] <Lucifer_arma> from there, there's plenty of optimization you can do, especially if you're organizing by message type (so you can prioritize acking, for example)
[2023-08-20 22:43:48] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| from there, there's plenty of optimization you can do, especially if you're organizing by message type (so you can prioritize acking, for example)
[2023-08-20 22:44:32] <Lucifer_arma> as far as monitors go, is it possible to use an interupt tied to the refresh rate so that you can do literally everything else, and then the interupt causes the drawing?
[2023-08-20 22:44:33] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| as far as monitors go, is it possible to use an interupt tied to the refresh rate so that you can do literally everything else, and then the interupt causes the drawing?
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