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[2024-01-17 09:01:05] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| xCode is a bit platform specific, which makes it harder to develop armagetron across platforms. If a supporting pacakge could be regularly maintained without changing the flow of the existing codebase, though...
[2024-01-17 09:01:05] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| xCode is a bit platform specific, which makes it harder to develop armagetron across platforms. If a supporting pacakge could be regularly maintained without changing the flow of the existing codebase, though...
[2024-01-17 09:33:03] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| Fair enough
[2024-01-17 09:33:03] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| Fair enough
[2024-01-17 09:34:23] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| how about making the winlibs repository a general purpose one that builds for macos and windows users?
[2024-01-17 09:34:23] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| how about making the winlibs repository a general purpose one that builds for macos and windows users?
[2024-01-17 09:34:31] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| since usually the codebases support multiple oses
[2024-01-17 09:34:31] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| since usually the codebases support multiple oses
[2024-01-17 09:35:24] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| bzflag has a dependencies repo that allows macos and windows users build via command line and shell scripts
[2024-01-17 09:35:24] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| bzflag has a dependencies repo that allows macos and windows users build via command line and shell scripts
[2024-01-17 10:44:41] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| @zman_0 Thanks for the clarification.
[2024-01-17 10:44:41] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| @zman_0 Thanks for the clarification.
[2024-01-17 10:55:29] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| If you could figure out a clean and straightforward implementation, I don't think anyone would be particularly opposed to it. The major requirement is that the process is repeatable by any learned individual with access to FOSS tools - and that includes being able to build for *other* IDE environments on MacOS. As long as the differences between the two are clear and well documen <clipped message>
[2024-01-17 10:55:29] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| If you could figure out a clean and straightforward implementation, I don't think anyone would be particularly opposed to it. The major requirement is that the process is repeatable by any learned individual with access to FOSS tools - and that includes being able to build for *other* IDE environments on MacOS. As long as the differences between the two are clear and well documen <clipped message>
[2024-01-17 10:55:30] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| ted, it could be a useful addition. 
[2024-01-17 10:55:31] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| ted, it could be a useful addition. 
[2024-01-17 10:55:31] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| That said, homebrew does appear to be working at the moment. As long as that process exists, it will suffice
[2024-01-17 10:55:32] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| That said, homebrew does appear to be working at the moment. As long as that process exists, it will suffice
[2024-01-17 10:58:17] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| ^ that isn't intended as a dissuasion, btw
[2024-01-17 10:58:18] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| ^ that isn't intended as a dissuasion, btw
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[2024-01-17 12:12:51] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| i understand, i just think the way bzflag does it is a good balance, of course with the option of homebrew/macports and the independent one
[2024-01-17 12:12:51] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| i understand, i just think the way bzflag does it is a good balance, of course with the option of homebrew/macports and the independent one
[2024-01-17 12:13:17] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| xcode doesnt have autoconf/automake out of the box
[2024-01-17 12:13:18] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| xcode doesnt have autoconf/automake out of the box
[2024-01-17 12:14:04] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| in windows you could use vcpkg and mingw
[2024-01-17 12:14:04] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| in windows you could use vcpkg and mingw
[2024-01-17 12:59:53] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| The winlibs setup is also suboptimal. We stick to it because our library dependencies and windows build system have not changed in a long time, but partly that is also a feedback effect: Because changing the Windows build system, say upgrading code::blocks to something less than ten years old, would mean rebuilding winlibs, so we don't as long as we don't have to.
[2024-01-17 12:59:53] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| The winlibs setup is also suboptimal. We stick to it because our library dependencies and windows build system have not changed in a long time, but partly that is also a feedback effect: Because changing the Windows build system, say upgrading code::blocks to something less than ten years old, would mean rebuilding winlibs, so we don't as long as we don't have to.
[2024-01-17 13:02:03] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| MSVC builds are faster than MINGW/gcc on windows fyi
[2024-01-17 13:02:03] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| MSVC builds are faster than MINGW/gcc on windows fyi
[2024-01-17 13:02:11] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| as in more performant
[2024-01-17 13:02:11] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| as in more performant
[2024-01-17 13:02:40] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| My personal ideal right now is that everything is defined in the main source module, with external dependencies of course. We have that for the Linux builds, for them, the build machines are docker images defined by dockerfiles in the main git tree. The bit that is iffing me there is that you still have to manually build the images and upload them to the repository, I'd prefer it <clipped message>
[2024-01-17 13:02:40] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| My personal ideal right now is that everything is defined in the main source module, with external dependencies of course. We have that for the Linux builds, for them, the build machines are docker images defined by dockerfiles in the main git tree. The bit that is iffing me there is that you still have to manually build the images and upload them to the repository, I'd prefer it <clipped message>
[2024-01-17 13:02:40] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0|  if the build would automatically handle that.
[2024-01-17 13:02:41] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0|  if the build would automatically handle that.
[2024-01-17 13:03:31] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| For the Windows build machine, the same applies; only that, it being windows, the setup is not completely automatic. You still have to klick OK a couple of times.
[2024-01-17 13:03:32] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| For the Windows build machine, the same applies; only that, it being windows, the setup is not completely automatic. You still have to klick OK a couple of times.
[2024-01-17 13:03:56] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| nothing that some computer vision and ahk cant fix
[2024-01-17 13:03:57] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| nothing that some computer vision and ahk cant fix
[2024-01-17 13:04:27] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| dont codeblocks and other stuff have cli stuff without prompts?
[2024-01-17 13:04:28] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| dont codeblocks and other stuff have cli stuff without prompts?
[2024-01-17 13:04:52] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| For the build, yes, and we use that; for the installer, no.
[2024-01-17 13:04:52] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| For the build, yes, and we use that; for the installer, no.
[2024-01-17 13:04:59] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| ah hm
[2024-01-17 13:05:00] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| ah hm
[2024-01-17 13:05:26] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| which installer framework is used here?
[2024-01-17 13:05:26] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| which installer framework is used here?
[2024-01-17 13:05:32] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| At least not for the one we need. Later ones are available over winget or the chocolate thing.
[2024-01-17 13:05:32] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| At least not for the one we need. Later ones are available over winget or the chocolate thing.
[2024-01-17 13:05:49] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| chocolatey, also there's scoop
[2024-01-17 13:05:49] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| chocolatey, also there's scoop
[2024-01-17 13:06:08] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| What do you mean by framework?
[2024-01-17 13:06:08] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| What do you mean by framework?
[2024-01-17 13:06:22] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| as in, nsis, inno, wix, etc
[2024-01-17 13:06:23] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| as in, nsis, inno, wix, etc
[2024-01-17 13:06:37] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| ah, our installer? that is nsis.
[2024-01-17 13:06:37] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| ah, our installer? that is nsis.
[2024-01-17 13:06:55] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| nsis has unattended command line arguments iirc
[2024-01-17 13:06:55] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| nsis has unattended command line arguments iirc
[2024-01-17 13:07:38] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| for runtime that is
[2024-01-17 13:07:38] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| for runtime that is
[2024-01-17 13:08:05] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Yeah, and we're using that. The build is completely headless, on all platforms.
[2024-01-17 13:08:05] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Yeah, and we're using that. The build is completely headless, on all platforms.
[2024-01-17 13:08:13] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| i see
[2024-01-17 13:08:13] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| i see
[2024-01-17 13:08:45] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| wdym "for the installer" then?
[2024-01-17 13:08:45] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| wdym "for the installer" then?
[2024-01-17 13:09:06] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| The installer that installs nsis, and the installer that installs code::blocks.
[2024-01-17 13:09:06] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| The installer that installs nsis, and the installer that installs code::blocks.
[2024-01-17 13:09:12] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| ah i see
[2024-01-17 13:09:13] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| ah i see
[2024-01-17 13:09:28] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| shouldnt those have automation options?
[2024-01-17 13:09:28] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| shouldnt those have automation options?
[2024-01-17 13:10:51] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Depending on what you mean by "should". They don't, at least not the versions we use. I wish they had.
[2024-01-17 13:10:51] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Depending on what you mean by "should". They don't, at least not the versions we use. I wish they had.
[2024-01-17 13:11:22] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| there is /S except for the last step
[2024-01-17 13:11:23] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| there is /S except for the last step
[2024-01-17 13:11:28] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Oh yeah, another problem is that for the windows build to run automated and headless, we're using wine. Sone tools don't work there. Winget is one of them.
[2024-01-17 13:11:28] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Oh yeah, another problem is that for the windows build to run automated and headless, we're using wine. Sone tools don't work there. Winget is one of them.
[2024-01-17 13:11:45] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| looking at some 2009 post
[2024-01-17 13:11:45] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| looking at some 2009 post
[2024-01-17 13:12:14] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| true, winget is uwp/onecore and runs on newer versions of win10
[2024-01-17 13:12:14] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| true, winget is uwp/onecore and runs on newer versions of win10
[2024-01-17 13:13:29] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| for codeblocks you could provide a zip file of the program files
[2024-01-17 13:13:29] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| for codeblocks you could provide a zip file of the program files
[2024-01-17 13:13:35] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| instead of relying on the installer
[2024-01-17 13:13:35] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| instead of relying on the installer
[2024-01-17 13:13:53] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Then I would have to maintain that. That's not less work.
[2024-01-17 13:13:53] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Then I would have to maintain that. That's not less work.
[2024-01-17 13:13:59] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| STOP TRYING TO HELP
[2024-01-17 13:14:00] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| STOP TRYING TO HELP
[2024-01-17 13:15:03] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| im sorry
[2024-01-17 13:15:03] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| im sorry
[2024-01-17 13:15:12] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| No worries 🙂
[2024-01-17 13:15:12] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| No worries 🙂
[2024-01-17 13:16:08] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| just making a zip of the codeblocks program files available is not high maintainance unless you're updating it frequently
[2024-01-17 13:16:08] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| just making a zip of the codeblocks program files available is not high maintainance unless you're updating it frequently
[2024-01-17 13:16:12] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| If you want to add xcode compilation support, knock yourself out; I'll merge it for those who want to use it.
[2024-01-17 13:16:13] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| If you want to add xcode compilation support, knock yourself out; I'll merge it for those who want to use it.
[2024-01-17 13:16:36] <armagetron-bridge> 15discord:Nélg| @Juesto when you say MSVC is faster than MINGW/GCC, are you saying that the build process is faster or that the resulting program is faster?
[2024-01-17 13:16:36] <armagetronbridge> 15discord:Nélg| @Juesto when you say MSVC is faster than MINGW/GCC, are you saying that the build process is faster or that the resulting program is faster?
[2024-01-17 13:16:42] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Yeah, but I also don't have to update the windows build docker image frequently.
[2024-01-17 13:16:42] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Yeah, but I also don't have to update the windows build docker image frequently.
[2024-01-17 13:16:45] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| the latter
[2024-01-17 13:16:45] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| the latter
[2024-01-17 13:17:02] <armagetron-bridge> 15discord:Nélg| have you actually tested that claim? I don't doubt that there could be slight speed differences under certain conditions, but I have a hard time believing that there's actually an overall meaningful speed difference between the two, especially one that would make it worthwhile to switch from CodeBlocks to Visual Studio.
[2024-01-17 13:17:02] <armagetronbridge> 15discord:Nélg| have you actually tested that claim? I don't doubt that there could be slight speed differences under certain conditions, but I have a hard time believing that there's actually an overall meaningful speed difference between the two, especially one that would make it worthwhile to switch from CodeBlocks to Visual Studio.
[2024-01-17 13:17:07] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| slightly faster execution
[2024-01-17 13:17:07] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| slightly faster execution
[2024-01-17 13:17:16] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| its minor at most
[2024-01-17 13:17:16] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| its minor at most
[2024-01-17 13:17:46] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| execution speed within armagetron isn't an issue persay, it's a comparatively tiny application
[2024-01-17 13:17:46] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| execution speed within armagetron isn't an issue persay, it's a comparatively tiny application
[2024-01-17 13:17:55] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| through its annoying that the windows sdk is hefty
[2024-01-17 13:17:55] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| through its annoying that the windows sdk is hefty
[2024-01-17 13:18:38] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| nelg, im not saying there's big differences
[2024-01-17 13:18:38] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| nelg, im not saying there's big differences
[2024-01-17 13:18:50] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| just minor
[2024-01-17 13:18:50] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| just minor
[2024-01-17 13:19:36] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| i guess i could compile armagetronad without codeblocks but using msys2/mingw
[2024-01-17 13:19:36] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| i guess i could compile armagetronad without codeblocks but using msys2/mingw
[2024-01-17 13:20:09] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| speaking of IDEs, what options are there on linux? which ones do yall use?
[2024-01-17 13:20:09] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| speaking of IDEs, what options are there on linux? which ones do yall use?
[2024-01-17 13:20:28] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| besides visual studio code and gnome and kde offers
[2024-01-17 13:20:28] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| besides visual studio code and gnome and kde offers
[2024-01-17 13:21:08] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| neovim currently for actual coding.
[2024-01-17 13:21:08] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| neovim currently for actual coding.
[2024-01-17 13:21:26] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| isnt that just a enhanced text editor?
[2024-01-17 13:21:26] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| isnt that just a enhanced text editor?
[2024-01-17 13:21:29] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| I'd say the bigger issue is single-threadiness. I think I was spitballing this before from a conceptual mindset, if we could offload stuff like scoring, logins (as with z-thread), console output and text chat, and background stuff like adjusting configs on-the-fly, that would be interesting. It's more interesting from a server standpoint, because offloading the unimportant stuff  <clipped message>
[2024-01-17 13:21:29] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| I'd say the bigger issue is single-threadiness. I think I was spitballing this before from a conceptual mindset, if we could offload stuff like scoring, logins (as with z-thread), console output and text chat, and background stuff like adjusting configs on-the-fly, that would be interesting. It's more interesting from a server standpoint, because offloading the unimportant stuff  <clipped message>
[2024-01-17 13:21:29] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| might actually improve in-game performance. Positional data and other in-memory stuff would benefit a lot from that, especially when it comes to things like heavy-output scenarios, such as Nanu's data gathering
[2024-01-17 13:21:30] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| might actually improve in-game performance. Positional data and other in-memory stuff would benefit a lot from that, especially when it comes to things like heavy-output scenarios, such as Nanu's data gathering
[2024-01-17 13:21:35] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| oh wow I type slowly
[2024-01-17 13:21:35] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| oh wow I type slowly
[2024-01-17 13:21:53] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| its ok, yeah that's a good goal to work on
[2024-01-17 13:21:53] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| its ok, yeah that's a good goal to work on
[2024-01-17 13:22:00] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Yeah, just like VS Code is just an enhanced text editor.
[2024-01-17 13:22:00] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Yeah, just like VS Code is just an enhanced text editor.
[2024-01-17 13:22:09] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| heh fair enough
[2024-01-17 13:22:10] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| heh fair enough
[2024-01-17 13:22:29] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| i mean, i was asking about proper ides not text editors pretending to be one thanks to the plugins
[2024-01-17 13:22:30] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| i mean, i was asking about proper ides not text editors pretending to be one thanks to the plugins
[2024-01-17 13:22:59] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| I still use full-fat visual studio, when I'm in linux I run it in cassowary. I'm locked into .NET at the moment though, so once I start moving to rust that'll change
[2024-01-17 13:22:59] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| I still use full-fat visual studio, when I'm in linux I run it in cassowary. I'm locked into .NET at the moment though, so once I start moving to rust that'll change
[2024-01-17 13:23:03] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| qtcreator worked reasonably well for me then.
[2024-01-17 13:23:03] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| qtcreator worked reasonably well for me then.
[2024-01-17 13:23:15] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| ah nice
[2024-01-17 13:23:15] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| ah nice
[2024-01-17 13:23:33] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| I have to say though, I do enjoy the features of VS, even if it *is* a COM nightmare under the hood
[2024-01-17 13:23:34] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| I have to say though, I do enjoy the features of VS, even if it *is* a COM nightmare under the hood
[2024-01-17 13:23:35] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| you could use xamarin monodevelop
[2024-01-17 13:23:35] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| you could use xamarin monodevelop
[2024-01-17 13:23:58] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| can't, I need full-fat .NET 4.... 4.something. Core is no good
[2024-01-17 13:23:59] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| can't, I need full-fat .NET 4.... 4.something. Core is no good
[2024-01-17 13:24:15] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| monodevelop does mono/net framework
[2024-01-17 13:24:16] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| monodevelop does mono/net framework
[2024-01-17 13:24:43] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Only kinda, and it lacks a lot of the push features that I need. It also doesn't support DotVVM, which is a framework that I'm building with at the moment
[2024-01-17 13:24:44] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Only kinda, and it lacks a lot of the push features that I need. It also doesn't support DotVVM, which is a framework that I'm building with at the moment
[2024-01-17 13:24:51] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| i see
[2024-01-17 13:24:51] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| i see
[2024-01-17 13:25:39] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Pretty much entirely locked in for the moment. Besides, changing now would make developement very difficult, the project is nowhere near a completed state and I need to save what little energy I have for actually advancing it
[2024-01-17 13:25:39] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Pretty much entirely locked in for the moment. Besides, changing now would make developement very difficult, the project is nowhere near a completed state and I need to save what little energy I have for actually advancing it
[2024-01-17 13:25:49] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| no worries
[2024-01-17 13:25:49] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| no worries
[2024-01-17 13:27:54] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| @zman_0 what's the current mininum for macos? 10.13?
[2024-01-17 13:27:55] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| @zman_0 what's the current mininum for macos? 10.13?
[2024-01-17 13:28:05] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| for armagetron advanced i mean
[2024-01-17 13:28:05] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| for armagetron advanced i mean
[2024-01-17 13:28:29] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Do I look like someone who knows what OSX version numbers mean?
[2024-01-17 13:28:29] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Do I look like someone who knows what OSX version numbers mean?
[2024-01-17 13:28:34] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Or codenames.
[2024-01-17 13:28:35] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Or codenames.
[2024-01-17 13:28:53] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| im just wondering what mac version armagetron targets? latest?
[2024-01-17 13:28:54] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| im just wondering what mac version armagetron targets? latest?
[2024-01-17 13:33:01] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| No. What was the one before Catalina? I guess that one.
[2024-01-17 13:33:01] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| No. What was the one before Catalina? I guess that one.
[2024-01-17 13:36:39] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| Mojave, 10.14
[2024-01-17 13:36:39] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| Mojave, 10.14
[2024-01-17 13:37:46] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| uhhhhhhhhhhh
[2024-01-17 13:37:46] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| uhhhhhhhhhhh
[2024-01-17 13:37:59] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Yeah, 10.14.6 Mojave is the version of the build system. The build probably can work on older machines, but I have no sensible way of checking.
[2024-01-17 13:38:01] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Yeah, 10.14.6 Mojave is the version of the build system. The build probably can work on older machines, but I have no sensible way of checking.
[2024-01-17 13:38:06] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| what are the changes that were done to the source tree in relation to mac os?
[2024-01-17 13:38:06] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| what are the changes that were done to the source tree in relation to mac os?
[2024-01-17 13:39:09] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| To the C++ code itself? Locations of the user storage locations, mostly.
[2024-01-17 13:39:09] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| To the C++ code itself? Locations of the user storage locations, mostly.
[2024-01-17 13:39:35] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| the changes from the old macos setup to what is used now
[2024-01-17 13:39:35] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| the changes from the old macos setup to what is used now
[2024-01-17 13:39:40] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| for building
[2024-01-17 13:39:40] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| for building
[2024-01-17 13:40:01] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Throw away the old setup, build a new process based on the Unix builds.
[2024-01-17 13:40:01] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Throw away the old setup, build a new process based on the Unix builds.
[2024-01-17 13:40:33] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Then a completely new packaging script for the app bundle, the signing and notarizing (which did not exist back then), and a new dwg image build script.
[2024-01-17 13:40:33] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Then a completely new packaging script for the app bundle, the signing and notarizing (which did not exist back then), and a new dwg image build script.
[2024-01-17 13:41:09] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| what minimum/target version does the app bundle script specify?
[2024-01-17 13:41:09] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| what minimum/target version does the app bundle script specify?
[2024-01-17 13:41:17] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| i guess i could just check on the released version
[2024-01-17 13:41:17] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| i guess i could just check on the released version
[2024-01-17 18:55:36] <Lucifer_arma> I've never found a good IDE.  The last one I used with any regularity was Borland C++ Builder, and that was only because I was learning C++ and was actually using windows for my daily driver.
[2024-01-17 18:55:36] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I've never found a good IDE.  The last one I used with any regularity was Borland C++ Builder, and that was only because I was learning C++ and was actually using windows for my daily driver.
[2024-01-17 18:56:17] <Lucifer_arma> I've fiddled with qtcreator, code::blocks, msvc, eclipse, etc.  Kdevelop.  I have to admit I really tried to get KDevelop to work for me.
[2024-01-17 18:56:17] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I've fiddled with qtcreator, code::blocks, msvc, eclipse, etc.  Kdevelop.  I have to admit I really tried to get KDevelop to work for me.
[2024-01-17 18:57:02] <Lucifer_arma> I determined the problem with IDEs is the "integrated" part.  I use so many random-ass tools that no IDE could realistically integrate everything in a way that's superior to just having a terminal widget in a text editor
[2024-01-17 18:57:02] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I determined the problem with IDEs is the "integrated" part.  I use so many random-ass tools that no IDE could realistically integrate everything in a way that's superior to just having a terminal widget in a text editor
[2024-01-17 18:57:20] <Lucifer_arma> and even then, I wind up opening so many terminals that I just have one desktop devoted to Konsole
[2024-01-17 18:57:20] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| and even then, I wind up opening so many terminals that I just have one desktop devoted to Konsole
[2024-01-17 18:58:28] <Lucifer_arma> I would be interested in moving over to CMake, and have even toyed with building arma with cmake.  The problem, of course, is that our autoconf/automake build is so feature rich that I just don't see cmake really being able to displace it
[2024-01-17 18:58:29] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I would be interested in moving over to CMake, and have even toyed with building arma with cmake.  The problem, of course, is that our autoconf/automake build is so feature rich that I just don't see cmake really being able to displace it
[2024-01-17 18:58:57] <Lucifer_arma> I mean, arma is easily the most build-configurable software package in the world, with the possible exception of the linux kernel itself :)
[2024-01-17 18:58:57] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I mean, arma is easily the most build-configurable software package in the world, with the possible exception of the linux kernel itself :)
[2024-01-17 19:00:33] <Lucifer_arma> so for me, the best changes to make to the build system would be to make all platforms use the autotools, or to move to a build system that would work for all platforms, like cmake.  Having a separate build system for each platform is a real pain in the ass, and not being able to cross compile has been a limitation
[2024-01-17 19:00:33] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so for me, the best changes to make to the build system would be to make all platforms use the autotools, or to move to a build system that would work for all platforms, like cmake.  Having a separate build system for each platform is a real pain in the ass, and not being able to cross compile has been a limitation
[2024-01-17 19:02:12] <Lucifer_arma> but I would specify that this holy grail build system also has to build the distributables for each platform, including rpm/deb packages, the windows installer, and the mac dmg (or whatever they're using now)
[2024-01-17 19:02:13] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but I would specify that this holy grail build system also has to build the distributables for each platform, including rpm/deb packages, the windows installer, and the mac dmg (or whatever they're using now)
[2024-01-17 19:03:02] <Lucifer_arma> ideally, it would be able to do that in a cross compiling context, i.e. building the mac image from a linux machine without using a vm, but that's not necessary
[2024-01-17 19:03:02] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| ideally, it would be able to do that in a cross compiling context, i.e. building the mac image from a linux machine without using a vm, but that's not necessary
[2024-01-17 19:05:02] <Lucifer_arma> and, of course, even more ideally, this futuristic build system would be able to target xbox, ps, whatever nintendo is making, etc.  I don't care if arma can't target them right now, I'd just like to know it could be in our future, since, you know, there are libraries that make it possible/easy to port opengl to opengles/vulkan
[2024-01-17 19:05:02] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| and, of course, even more ideally, this futuristic build system would be able to target xbox, ps, whatever nintendo is making, etc.  I don't care if arma can't target them right now, I'd just like to know it could be in our future, since, you know, there are libraries that make it possible/easy to port opengl to opengles/vulkan
[2024-01-17 19:05:19] <Lucifer_arma> android and ios, of course
[2024-01-17 19:05:20] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| android and ios, of course
[2024-01-17 19:05:34] <Lucifer_arma> I *think* this can be done with cmake, but I don't know it for a fact
[2024-01-17 19:05:35] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I *think* this can be done with cmake, but I don't know it for a fact
[2024-01-17 19:08:04] <Lucifer_arma> finally, msvc vs mingw is a non-starter.  Ignoring all technical points, the base arma build system and the distributables we provide need to come from open source tools
[2024-01-17 19:08:04] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| finally, msvc vs mingw is a non-starter.  Ignoring all technical points, the base arma build system and the distributables we provide need to come from open source tools
[2024-01-17 19:08:35] <Lucifer_arma> I don't mind supporting msvc, but it can only ever be optional
[2024-01-17 19:08:36] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I don't mind supporting msvc, but it can only ever be optional
[2024-01-17 19:09:38] <Lucifer_arma> iirc, we made the switch to mingw because it had finally reached a point where its builds were competitive with msvc builds, and microsoft was doing a lot of weird shit with the msvc license, including going after open source projects distributing the msvc runtime
[2024-01-17 19:09:38] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| iirc, we made the switch to mingw because it had finally reached a point where its builds were competitive with msvc builds, and microsoft was doing a lot of weird shit with the msvc license, including going after open source projects distributing the msvc runtime
[2024-01-17 19:11:18] <Lucifer_arma> I'm all for microsoft trying to not be evil, and letting them move on from their past evildoing, but we're never going to have a world where it makes sense for an open source project to rely on anything closed source
[2024-01-17 19:11:19] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I'm all for microsoft trying to not be evil, and letting them move on from their past evildoing, but we're never going to have a world where it makes sense for an open source project to rely on anything closed source
[2024-01-17 19:11:54] <Lucifer_arma> the only reason anybody ever did in the past was because there were technical hurdles, but those are all gone now, and have been for some time.
[2024-01-17 19:11:55] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| the only reason anybody ever did in the past was because there were technical hurdles, but those are all gone now, and have been for some time.
[2024-01-17 19:21:50] <Lucifer_arma> on the subject of threading, the reason we didn't do much in the past was because thread support was weird cross-platform and there's not a lot of places where threading made sense.  But nowadays, with cpus providing great threading models, I think we're missing the boat by not threading whatever can be threaded
[2024-01-17 19:21:50] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| on the subject of threading, the reason we didn't do much in the past was because thread support was weird cross-platform and there's not a lot of places where threading made sense.  But nowadays, with cpus providing great threading models, I think we're missing the boat by not threading whatever can be threaded
[2024-01-17 19:22:22] <Lucifer_arma> I would argue against actual multiprocessing, except in the case of developing a server waiting room, because it's unnecessary complications
[2024-01-17 19:22:23] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I would argue against actual multiprocessing, except in the case of developing a server waiting room, because it's unnecessary complications
[2024-01-17 19:23:17] <Lucifer_arma> but nowadays, even the base model cpus people are using and the kernels they're running provide great threading support and acceleration, and multithreaded code just isn't nearly as hard to work with as multiprocessing
[2024-01-17 19:23:17] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but nowadays, even the base model cpus people are using and the kernels they're running provide great threading support and acceleration, and multithreaded code just isn't nearly as hard to work with as multiprocessing
[2024-01-17 19:24:22] <Lucifer_arma> with AI accelerators hitting the market, if it makes sense for us to use those for anything other than graphics, then we should, but that's another ten years down the road before we should expect it to be widespread in our userbase
[2024-01-17 19:24:23] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| with AI accelerators hitting the market, if it makes sense for us to use those for anything other than graphics, then we should, but that's another ten years down the road before we should expect it to be widespread in our userbase
[2024-01-17 19:29:37] <Lucifer_arma> I've also changed my views on boost.  Now that boost is (and has been for some time) the incubation project for whatever goes into the standard C++ libraries, I'm ok with using boost.  I'd still prefer not to have to install the 200GB boost package.  :)
[2024-01-17 19:29:38] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I've also changed my views on boost.  Now that boost is (and has been for some time) the incubation project for whatever goes into the standard C++ libraries, I'm ok with using boost.  I'd still prefer not to have to install the 200GB boost package.  :)
[2024-01-17 19:30:36] <Lucifer_arma> I say that because boost::thread has been integrated into a recent c++ standard, but I don't know if we've moved up to it yet
[2024-01-17 19:30:37] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I say that because boost::thread has been integrated into a recent c++ standard, but I don't know if we've moved up to it yet
[2024-01-17 19:30:47] <Lucifer_arma> or it's about to be, something like that
[2024-01-17 19:30:48] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| or it's about to be, something like that
[2024-01-17 19:32:36] <Lucifer_arma> I'm saying that there should be a c++ standard the provides cross platform threads soon, which would be the last big barrier for us to use threads more aggressively/liberally
[2024-01-17 19:32:36] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I'm saying that there should be a c++ standard the provides cross platform threads soon, which would be the last big barrier for us to use threads more aggressively/liberally
[2024-01-17 19:34:21] <Lucifer_arma> which ties into the msvc vs mingw question.  GCC has become a kind of de facto reference implementation for C and C++.  So using it everywhere is a nobrainer
[2024-01-17 19:34:22] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| which ties into the msvc vs mingw question.  GCC has become a kind of de facto reference implementation for C and C++.  So using it everywhere is a nobrainer
[2024-01-17 19:41:16] <Lucifer_arma> there is still a caveat with threading on android that I feel obligated to point out.  If we ever port to android, we'll need to link to a different C library than the one that comes with android (bison?) because it's threading implementation is non-existent
[2024-01-17 19:41:17] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| there is still a caveat with threading on android that I feel obligated to point out.  If we ever port to android, we'll need to link to a different C library than the one that comes with android (bison?) because it's threading implementation is non-existent
[2024-01-17 19:42:53] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| LLVM/Clang is replacing GCC in many areas btw. Just something to think about for the future. Note that LLVM/Clang can be used as a drop in replacement for GCC, if I'm not mistaken.
[2024-01-17 19:42:53] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| LLVM/Clang is replacing GCC in many areas btw. Just something to think about for the future. Note that LLVM/Clang can be used as a drop in replacement for GCC, if I'm not mistaken.
[2024-01-17 19:43:48] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| I think the only area in which it needs to improve is the debugger. It will get there though.
[2024-01-17 19:43:48] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| I think the only area in which it needs to improve is the debugger. It will get there though.
[2024-01-17 19:44:14] <Lucifer_arma> I have been seeing some noise about that.  I should probably look into it at some point.  But if it can serve as a drop-in replacement for gcc, then we don't need to target it :)
[2024-01-17 19:44:14] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I have been seeing some noise about that.  I should probably look into it at some point.  But if it can serve as a drop-in replacement for gcc, then we don't need to target it :)
[2024-01-17 19:44:36] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| I knew you were going to say that.
[2024-01-17 19:44:36] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| I knew you were going to say that.
[2024-01-17 19:45:34] <Lucifer_arma> gcc isn't panacea.  It definitely has its flaws.  So I'm hardly married to it.  ;)
[2024-01-17 19:45:34] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| gcc isn't panacea.  It definitely has its flaws.  So I'm hardly married to it.  ;)
[2024-01-17 19:48:17] <Lucifer_arma> as a side note, I think arm is reaching a point where we can declare it the pinnacle of transistor-based CPU architectures and migrate all computing to arm cpus
[2024-01-17 19:48:18] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| as a side note, I think arm is reaching a point where we can declare it the pinnacle of transistor-based CPU architectures and migrate all computing to arm cpus
[2024-01-17 19:48:50] <Lucifer_arma> I may be biased, though, since 90% of my computers in my home are all arm
[2024-01-17 19:48:51] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I may be biased, though, since 90% of my computers in my home are all arm
[2024-01-17 19:48:59] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| I'm assuming that's humour?
[2024-01-17 19:48:59] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| I'm assuming that's humour?
[2024-01-17 19:49:14] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| Because RISCV is the future surely, no?
[2024-01-17 19:49:15] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| Because RISCV is the future surely, no?
[2024-01-17 19:49:34] <Lucifer_arma> no?  arm has managed to assimilate pretty much everything
[2024-01-17 19:49:34] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| no?  arm has managed to assimilate pretty much everything
[2024-01-17 19:49:54] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| Even Nvidia will be using RISCV chips in the near future.
[2024-01-17 19:49:54] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| Even Nvidia will be using RISCV chips in the near future.
[2024-01-17 19:50:05] <Lucifer_arma> really?  I thought they just went all-in on arm
[2024-01-17 19:50:06] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| really?  I thought they just went all-in on arm
[2024-01-17 19:50:16] <Lucifer_arma> they even tried to buy arm
[2024-01-17 19:50:16] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| they even tried to buy arm
[2024-01-17 19:50:27] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| Nvidia did?
[2024-01-17 19:50:28] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| Nvidia did?
[2024-01-17 19:50:44] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, they got shut down by EU regulators.  antitrust concerns.
[2024-01-17 19:50:44] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| yeah, they got shut down by EU regulators.  antitrust concerns.
[2024-01-17 19:50:51] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| hah
[2024-01-17 19:50:51] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| hah
[2024-01-17 19:51:03] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| well the future is definitely RISCV
[2024-01-17 19:51:04] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| well the future is definitely RISCV
[2024-01-17 19:51:06] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| IMO
[2024-01-17 19:51:07] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| IMO
[2024-01-17 19:51:57] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| No royalties for a start and also different versions for different scale jobs....embedded, desktops, etc
[2024-01-17 19:51:57] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| No royalties for a start and also different versions for different scale jobs....embedded, desktops, etc
[2024-01-17 19:51:59] <Lucifer_arma> idk.  I haven't seen any riscv boards for under like $300.  But it seems like every couple of months, some new SoC arm thing comes out that's not raspberry pi and costs around $100
[2024-01-17 19:51:59] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| idk.  I haven't seen any riscv boards for under like $300.  But it seems like every couple of months, some new SoC arm thing comes out that's not raspberry pi and costs around $100
[2024-01-17 19:52:13] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| RISCV hasnt taken  off yet
[2024-01-17 19:52:14] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| RISCV hasnt taken  off yet
[2024-01-17 19:52:24] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| but it will very soon
[2024-01-17 19:52:24] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| but it will very soon
[2024-01-17 19:52:26] <Lucifer_arma> arm has all that.  That's why apple went to arm for its new laptops
[2024-01-17 19:52:26] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| arm has all that.  That's why apple went to arm for its new laptops
[2024-01-17 19:52:50] <Lucifer_arma> I think there's even a top 500 arm computer
[2024-01-17 19:52:50] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I think there's even a top 500 arm computer
[2024-01-17 19:52:55] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| but arm is not an open hardware standard
[2024-01-17 19:52:56] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| but arm is not an open hardware standard
[2024-01-17 19:53:05] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| so people gotta pay royalties etc
[2024-01-17 19:53:06] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| so people gotta pay royalties etc
[2024-01-17 19:53:14] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| RISCV is open
[2024-01-17 19:53:14] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| RISCV is open
[2024-01-17 19:53:30] <Lucifer_arma> eh, sorta.  It's not exactly closed, either.
[2024-01-17 19:53:30] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| eh, sorta.  It's not exactly closed, either.
[2024-01-17 19:53:59] <Lucifer_arma> I'm not throwing my support behind arm, mind you.  I'm just commenting on what I'm seeing.  I'd prefer an open standard, every time.
[2024-01-17 19:53:59] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I'm not throwing my support behind arm, mind you.  I'm just commenting on what I'm seeing.  I'd prefer an open standard, every time.
[2024-01-17 19:54:18] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| me too and I'm not just saying it will take off because it's open either
[2024-01-17 19:54:18] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| me too and I'm not just saying it will take off because it's open either
[2024-01-17 19:54:59] <Lucifer_arma> arm has been threading the needle on that, and so far, doing pretty well.  I have to admit, though, that knowing that arm is derived ultimately from the 6502, I have sentimental reasons to want it to succeed
[2024-01-17 19:55:00] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| arm has been threading the needle on that, and so far, doing pretty well.  I have to admit, though, that knowing that arm is derived ultimately from the 6502, I have sentimental reasons to want it to succeed
[2024-01-17 19:55:28] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| well arm is better than x86 but that's not difficult
[2024-01-17 19:55:29] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| well arm is better than x86 but that's not difficult
[2024-01-17 19:55:41] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| x86 is very CISC
[2024-01-17 19:55:41] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| x86 is very CISC
[2024-01-17 19:56:16] <Lucifer_arma> it's hard to be amd64, since it really addressed all the flaws of the 32-bit arch.  But risc is definitely the future, and arm is risc
[2024-01-17 19:56:16] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it's hard to be amd64, since it really addressed all the flaws of the 32-bit arch.  But risc is definitely the future, and arm is risc
[2024-01-17 19:56:27] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| yes
[2024-01-17 19:56:28] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| yes
[2024-01-17 19:56:43] <Lucifer_arma> it started as like a 16-bit risc version of the 6502, iirc.
[2024-01-17 19:56:43] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it started as like a 16-bit risc version of the 6502, iirc.
[2024-01-17 19:56:52] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| ok
[2024-01-17 19:56:53] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| ok
[2024-01-17 19:57:21] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| RISCV has 32, 64, 128 bit versions for different purposes iirc
[2024-01-17 19:57:22] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| RISCV has 32, 64, 128 bit versions for different purposes iirc
[2024-01-17 19:58:03] <Lucifer_arma> I feel like we're either not going to transition to 128 bit, or when we do, that'll be it for digital computers and whatever comes next (quantum computers?) is what's going to replace it
[2024-01-17 19:58:03] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I feel like we're either not going to transition to 128 bit, or when we do, that'll be it for digital computers and whatever comes next (quantum computers?) is what's going to replace it
[2024-01-17 19:58:03] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| deli is writing an essay i can see
[2024-01-17 19:58:04] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| deli is writing an essay i can see
[2024-01-17 19:58:23] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| quantum computing is scary
[2024-01-17 19:58:23] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| quantum computing is scary
[2024-01-17 19:58:34] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| but yeah its the future
[2024-01-17 19:58:34] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| but yeah its the future
[2024-01-17 19:58:47] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| The more I think about it, the more I think RISCV is going to end up being the go-to for graphical processing, rendering, big-chunk, and scalable dedi stuff. Arm has the advantage, though, of being extremely flexible, mich like x86/64. I'm also a little biased, because my DC runs Ampere architecture and I've grown very fond of it, but I can't deny that the ability to run scalable <clipped message>
[2024-01-17 19:58:47] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| The more I think about it, the more I think RISCV is going to end up being the go-to for graphical processing, rendering, big-chunk, and scalable dedi stuff. Arm has the advantage, though, of being extremely flexible, mich like x86/64. I'm also a little biased, because my DC runs Ampere architecture and I've grown very fond of it, but I can't deny that the ability to run scalable <clipped message>
[2024-01-17 19:58:48] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent|  VMs with varying workloads at considerably reduced power requirement is a no-brainer. I can even run a VM to emulate the x64 platform if I need to, which is helpful given my need to run .NET in the wild. When it comes to massively scaled complex data, though, RISCV has definite advantages - assuming I can get the hardware built for the workload that is.
[2024-01-17 19:58:48] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent|  VMs with varying workloads at considerably reduced power requirement is a no-brainer. I can even run a VM to emulate the x64 platform if I need to, which is helpful given my need to run .NET in the wild. When it comes to massively scaled complex data, though, RISCV has definite advantages - assuming I can get the hardware built for the workload that is.
[2024-01-17 20:00:28] <Lucifer_arma> the big question is if riscv can get serious traction before arm assimilates it.  Arm's flexibility is its killer feature.  I mean, my database server has 8 cores, where four are arm7 and four are arm5, and when it's idling, it uses the arm5 ones to save power
[2024-01-17 20:00:28] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| the big question is if riscv can get serious traction before arm assimilates it.  Arm's flexibility is its killer feature.  I mean, my database server has 8 cores, where four are arm7 and four are arm5, and when it's idling, it uses the arm5 ones to save power
[2024-01-17 20:01:45] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Also we don't have true quantum entanglement yet, and we're decades if not centuries off it. I read a few prominent papers and they pretty much all say the same thing - we can *kind of* simulate entanglement, but it's not true entanglement because the atoms don't remain consistent when the environment changes. As soon as one side of the pair is altered, the entanglement breaks -  <clipped message>
[2024-01-17 20:01:45] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| so essentially what we've done is spin up two identicle bicycle wheels and let them spin down together at the same time. Soon as you move one wheel, its inertia changes and they are no longer spinning identically.
[2024-01-17 20:01:45] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Also we don't have true quantum entanglement yet, and we're decades if not centuries off it. I read a few prominent papers and they pretty much all say the same thing - we can *kind of* simulate entanglement, but it's not true entanglement because the atoms don't remain consistent when the environment changes. As soon as one side of the pair is altered, the entanglement breaks -  <clipped message>
[2024-01-17 20:01:46] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| so essentially what we've done is spin up two identicle bicycle wheels and let them spin down together at the same time. Soon as you move one wheel, its inertia changes and they are no longer spinning identically.
[2024-01-17 20:02:10] <Lucifer_arma> apple did something similar with their new chip.  I forget what it's called.  And while they did a lot of proprietary assholery with it, too, they really showed what can be done, and there's a lot of chips coming on the market that are "server class"
[2024-01-17 20:02:10] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| apple did something similar with their new chip.  I forget what it's called.  And while they did a lot of proprietary assholery with it, too, they really showed what can be done, and there's a lot of chips coming on the market that are "server class"
[2024-01-17 20:02:24] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| 8 cores? pffffffff. My Altras have 80 cores apiece
[2024-01-17 20:02:24] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| 8 cores? pffffffff. My Altras have 80 cores apiece
[2024-01-17 20:02:45] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, but it only cost me like $150
[2024-01-17 20:02:46] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| yeah, but it only cost me like $150
[2024-01-17 20:03:17] <Lucifer_arma> arm still has some work to penetrate the server market, but someone did put together a supercomputer with it
[2024-01-17 20:03:17] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| arm still has some work to penetrate the server market, but someone did put together a supercomputer with it
[2024-01-17 20:03:25] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| ya you got me beat, my DC was 'speeeeeeeennsive
[2024-01-17 20:03:25] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| ya you got me beat, my DC was 'speeeeeeeennsive
[2024-01-17 20:04:02] <Lucifer_arma> my cluster is coming in around $600, and has a total of 20 cores
[2024-01-17 20:04:03] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| my cluster is coming in around $600, and has a total of 20 cores
[2024-01-17 20:04:04] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| hey, no, they've pretty much *done* the groundwork. Ampere have three generations of server cpu out already
[2024-01-17 20:04:04] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| hey, no, they've pretty much *done* the groundwork. Ampere have three generations of server cpu out already
[2024-01-17 20:04:23] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| https://riscv.org/about/technical-steering-committee/
[2024-01-17 20:04:23] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| https://riscv.org/about/technical-steering-committee/
[2024-01-17 20:04:45] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| oh you're fucking shitting me monkey
[2024-01-17 20:04:45] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| oh you're fucking shitting me monkey
[2024-01-17 20:04:46] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| In that committee you will find people from Intel, Nvidia, Microsoft, Google ...
[2024-01-17 20:04:46] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| In that committee you will find people from Intel, Nvidia, Microsoft, Google ...
[2024-01-17 20:04:47] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| david chen
[2024-01-17 20:04:47] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| david chen
[2024-01-17 20:05:04] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| WAY to fuck over a project
[2024-01-17 20:05:05] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| WAY to fuck over a project
[2024-01-17 20:06:01] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| oh ffs
[2024-01-17 20:06:02] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| oh ffs
[2024-01-17 20:06:03] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| peter chun too
[2024-01-17 20:06:04] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| peter chun too
[2024-01-17 20:06:12] <Lucifer_arma> qualcomm, seagate
[2024-01-17 20:06:12] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| qualcomm, seagate
[2024-01-17 20:06:19] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| huawei
[2024-01-17 20:06:19] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| huawei
[2024-01-17 20:06:20] <Lucifer_arma> curiously, there's no AMD or Apple
[2024-01-17 20:06:20] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| curiously, there's no AMD or Apple
[2024-01-17 20:06:22] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| alibaba
[2024-01-17 20:06:22] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| alibaba
[2024-01-17 20:06:39] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| I fucking guarantee it, RISCV is going nowhere for the time being
[2024-01-17 20:06:39] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| I fucking guarantee it, RISCV is going nowhere for the time being
[2024-01-17 20:06:50] <Lucifer_arma> is it because amd, apple, and intel can't be in the same room together?
[2024-01-17 20:06:51] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| is it because amd, apple, and intel can't be in the same room together?
[2024-01-17 20:06:55] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| no
[2024-01-17 20:06:55] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| no
[2024-01-17 20:06:59] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| AMD will have to follow suit if Intel are going down the RISCV route. Apple ....i dont know what they will do
[2024-01-17 20:06:59] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| AMD will have to follow suit if Intel are going down the RISCV route. Apple ....i dont know what they will do
[2024-01-17 20:07:16] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| also no IBM btw
[2024-01-17 20:07:16] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| also no IBM btw
[2024-01-17 20:07:20] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Huawei is on the do-not-buy list. Alibaba is just bad news
[2024-01-17 20:07:20] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Huawei is on the do-not-buy list. Alibaba is just bad news
[2024-01-17 20:07:25] <Lucifer_arma> Apple's all in on arm right now.
[2024-01-17 20:07:25] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Apple's all in on arm right now.
[2024-01-17 20:07:36] <Lucifer_arma> ZTE is also on the do-not-buy list
[2024-01-17 20:07:36] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| ZTE is also on the do-not-buy list
[2024-01-17 20:07:46] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| shit are they in there too
[2024-01-17 20:07:46] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| shit are they in there too
[2024-01-17 20:07:50] <Lucifer_arma> yep
[2024-01-17 20:07:50] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| yep
[2024-01-17 20:08:06] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| ugh so is tencent
[2024-01-17 20:08:07] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| ugh so is tencent
[2024-01-17 20:08:12] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| sorry monkey
[2024-01-17 20:08:12] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| sorry monkey
[2024-01-17 20:08:25] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| hey dont blame me
[2024-01-17 20:08:26] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| hey dont blame me
[2024-01-17 20:08:26] <Lucifer_arma> it's an impressive assortment, but it looks like a lot of people are there just to keep an eye on it
[2024-01-17 20:08:27] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it's an impressive assortment, but it looks like a lot of people are there just to keep an eye on it
[2024-01-17 20:08:44] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| it hasnt snowballed yet but i think it will soon
[2024-01-17 20:08:44] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| it hasnt snowballed yet but i think it will soon
[2024-01-17 20:09:21] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| nah, not blaming you, just a damn shame. Those four being involved basically guarantees that anything RISCV attempts will have to be on a manufacturing platform at least three or four generations old
[2024-01-17 20:09:22] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| nah, not blaming you, just a damn shame. Those four being involved basically guarantees that anything RISCV attempts will have to be on a manufacturing platform at least three or four generations old
[2024-01-17 20:09:44] <Lucifer_arma> it's also going to limit US involvement
[2024-01-17 20:09:44] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it's also going to limit US involvement
[2024-01-17 20:09:58] <Lucifer_arma> there's no way that shit is going into us government hardware, military or otherwise
[2024-01-17 20:09:58] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| there's no way that shit is going into us government hardware, military or otherwise
[2024-01-17 20:10:01] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| maybe more than that actually. Isn't the restriction up to 10nm?
[2024-01-17 20:10:02] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| maybe more than that actually. Isn't the restriction up to 10nm?
[2024-01-17 20:10:14] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| dependent on application I think
[2024-01-17 20:10:14] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| dependent on application I think
[2024-01-17 20:10:30] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| it's not just the US either. It's the UK, most of Europe, Oceanie
[2024-01-17 20:10:30] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| it's not just the US either. It's the UK, most of Europe, Oceanie
[2024-01-17 20:10:35] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| *oceania
[2024-01-17 20:10:35] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| *oceania
[2024-01-17 20:10:48] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| No offence but the US will be a third world country by the time China has taken over
[2024-01-17 20:10:49] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| No offence but the US will be a third world country by the time China has taken over
[2024-01-17 20:10:49] <Lucifer_arma> theoretically, as an open standard, those guys being there shouldn't be a problem as long as the hardware comes from other people
[2024-01-17 20:10:50] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| theoretically, as an open standard, those guys being there shouldn't be a problem as long as the hardware comes from other people
[2024-01-17 20:11:03] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Technically yes
[2024-01-17 20:11:03] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Technically yes
[2024-01-17 20:11:10] <Lucifer_arma> we already crossed over into third world status then the canadian dollar traded higher than the US dollar
[2024-01-17 20:11:10] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| we already crossed over into third world status then the canadian dollar traded higher than the US dollar
[2024-01-17 20:11:15] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| but their involvement is going to turn a lot of skilled people away
[2024-01-17 20:11:15] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| but their involvement is going to turn a lot of skilled people away
[2024-01-17 20:11:23] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| wat
[2024-01-17 20:11:23] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| wat
[2024-01-17 20:11:31] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| lol in the UK brexit sealed our fate as third world too
[2024-01-17 20:11:31] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| lol in the UK brexit sealed our fate as third world too
[2024-01-17 20:11:31] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| the canadian rupee is higher than the dollarydoo?
[2024-01-17 20:11:32] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| the canadian rupee is higher than the dollarydoo?
[2024-01-17 20:11:39] <Lucifer_arma> jeez, that was back in the 2008 recession
[2024-01-17 20:11:40] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| jeez, that was back in the 2008 recession
[2024-01-17 20:11:43] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| o
[2024-01-17 20:11:43] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| o
[2024-01-17 20:12:07] <Lucifer_arma> my brother was working for a canadian company at the time, so he got a raise :)
[2024-01-17 20:12:07] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| my brother was working for a canadian company at the time, so he got a raise :)
[2024-01-17 20:12:09] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| I was a little twerp on a skateboard back then
[2024-01-17 20:12:09] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| I was a little twerp on a skateboard back then
[2024-01-17 20:12:23] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| I kinda knew about the recession but it didn't really mean much to me
[2024-01-17 20:12:23] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| I kinda knew about the recession but it didn't really mean much to me
[2024-01-17 20:12:39] <Lucifer_arma> oh, it fucked me.  I've only recently recovered financially from it
[2024-01-17 20:12:39] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| oh, it fucked me.  I've only recently recovered financially from it
[2024-01-17 20:12:57] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| wait
[2024-01-17 20:12:57] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| wait
[2024-01-17 20:12:59] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| hol up
[2024-01-17 20:12:59] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| hol up
[2024-01-17 20:13:12] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Sergey Yakushkin
[2024-01-17 20:13:12] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Sergey Yakushkin
[2024-01-17 20:13:15] <Lucifer_arma> there is still google and intel in there
[2024-01-17 20:13:15] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| there is still google and intel in there
[2024-01-17 20:13:16] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| I knew I recognised that name
[2024-01-17 20:13:16] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| I knew I recognised that name
[2024-01-17 20:13:32] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Russian chiplet designer
[2024-01-17 20:13:32] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Russian chiplet designer
[2024-01-17 20:13:39] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| sanctioned completely
[2024-01-17 20:13:39] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| sanctioned completely
[2024-01-17 20:13:51] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| can't do any business at all with anyone in the west
[2024-01-17 20:13:52] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| can't do any business at all with anyone in the west
[2024-01-17 20:14:17] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| and last I heard all their design partners pulled out
[2024-01-17 20:14:17] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| and last I heard all their design partners pulled out
[2024-01-17 20:14:25] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| which included, incidentally, arm
[2024-01-17 20:14:25] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| which included, incidentally, arm
[2024-01-17 20:14:44] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| wow, it really has been a shit few years
[2024-01-17 20:14:44] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| wow, it really has been a shit few years
[2024-01-17 21:10:39] <-- DruidMonroe has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[2024-01-17 21:17:13] <Lucifer_arma> it might be about to get worse.  Have you been paying attention to the US election?
[2024-01-17 21:17:13] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it might be about to get worse.  Have you been paying attention to the US election?
[2024-01-17 22:19:19] <Lucifer_arma> well, based on what I was just reading, gcc should be expected to outperform msvc pretty regularly.  If you really want to switch compilers for higher performing builds, you should switch to clang, which narrowly beats gcc in a few cases
[2024-01-17 22:19:20] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| well, based on what I was just reading, gcc should be expected to outperform msvc pretty regularly.  If you really want to switch compilers for higher performing builds, you should switch to clang, which narrowly beats gcc in a few cases
[2024-01-17 22:19:44] <Lucifer_arma> so I've changed my mind.  I don't see a point to supporting msvc
[2024-01-17 22:19:44] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so I've changed my mind.  I don't see a point to supporting msvc
[2024-01-17 22:46:00] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| just check gentoo for the vast amount of configurable options in many packages
[2024-01-17 22:46:00] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| just check gentoo for the vast amount of configurable options in many packages
[2024-01-17 22:46:07] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| arma isnt the only one
[2024-01-17 22:46:07] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| arma isnt the only one
[2024-01-17 22:46:20] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| huh, i guess things change a bit
[2024-01-17 22:46:20] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| huh, i guess things change a bit
[2024-01-17 22:46:37] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| for an operating system msvc is better or something, or it was a few years ago
[2024-01-17 22:46:37] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| for an operating system msvc is better or something, or it was a few years ago
[2024-01-17 22:46:49] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:Juesto| eg reactos
[2024-01-17 22:46:50] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:Juesto| eg reactos
[2024-01-17 22:47:37] <armagetron-bridge> 15discord:Nélg| i did ask if you had actually tested that claim 😉
[2024-01-17 22:47:37] <armagetronbridge> 15discord:Nélg| i did ask if you had actually tested that claim 😉
[2024-01-17 23:23:41] <Lucifer_arma> it's actually sensible to expect both gcc and clang to outperform msvc.  Both have huge communities supporting them, as well as cpu vendors optimizing for their own cpus.
[2024-01-17 23:23:41] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it's actually sensible to expect both gcc and clang to outperform msvc.  Both have huge communities supporting them, as well as cpu vendors optimizing for their own cpus.
[2024-01-17 23:24:03] <Lucifer_arma> Additionally, several cpu vendors, including apple and intel, use clang as the base for their own compilers
[2024-01-17 23:24:03] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Additionally, several cpu vendors, including apple and intel, use clang as the base for their own compilers
[2024-01-17 23:24:56] <Lucifer_arma> gcc does a lot of its optimizations in the middle, after translating the source tree to its internal representation, so every language it supports gets the optimizations, as well as contributes optimizations
[2024-01-17 23:24:57] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| gcc does a lot of its optimizations in the middle, after translating the source tree to its internal representation, so every language it supports gets the optimizations, as well as contributes optimizations
[2024-01-17 23:25:37] <Lucifer_arma> both clang and gcc do another round of optimizations in the linker, so the results of that round are going to be dependent on cpu support, of course
[2024-01-17 23:25:37] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| both clang and gcc do another round of optimizations in the linker, so the results of that round are going to be dependent on cpu support, of course
[2024-01-17 23:26:04] <Lucifer_arma> aaaaand, cpu vendors upstream optimizations for their cpus to both clang and gcc
[2024-01-17 23:26:05] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| aaaaand, cpu vendors upstream optimizations for their cpus to both clang and gcc
[2024-01-17 23:27:20] <Lucifer_arma> I thought it had to be wrong that msvc was still generating higher performing code, since gcc had reached parity when we made the decision to drop msvc and embrace mingw.  It didn't make sense to me that msvc would have done better.
[2024-01-17 23:27:21] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I thought it had to be wrong that msvc was still generating higher performing code, since gcc had reached parity when we made the decision to drop msvc and embrace mingw.  It didn't make sense to me that msvc would have done better.
[2024-01-17 23:28:04] <Lucifer_arma> now, it's true that msvc can still generate faster code for windows applications because it has what you'd call special knowledge of windows internals
[2024-01-17 23:28:04] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| now, it's true that msvc can still generate faster code for windows applications because it has what you'd call special knowledge of windows internals
[2024-01-17 23:28:17] <Lucifer_arma> it makes me wonder if you could build windows with gcc, would you get a faster OS?
[2024-01-17 23:28:18] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it makes me wonder if you could build windows with gcc, would you get a faster OS?
[2024-01-17 23:28:56] <Lucifer_arma> Anyway, I found someone who found that his gcc-built benchmark suite on a raspberry pi outperformed the same suite built with msvc on his desktop
[2024-01-17 23:28:56] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Anyway, I found someone who found that his gcc-built benchmark suite on a raspberry pi outperformed the same suite built with msvc on his desktop
[2024-01-17 23:30:43] <Lucifer_arma> for security, I would expect gcc specifically to generate safer code, and there's some information to suggest that that's true, but I haven't found anything that resembles proof
[2024-01-17 23:30:44] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| for security, I would expect gcc specifically to generate safer code, and there's some information to suggest that that's true, but I haven't found anything that resembles proof
[2024-01-17 23:34:24] <Lucifer_arma> also, riscv looks like it's in better shape than our look at the steering committee would have indicated.
[2024-01-17 23:34:24] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| also, riscv looks like it's in better shape than our look at the steering committee would have indicated.
[2024-01-17 23:35:12] <Lucifer_arma> all of the initial development was done before any of the more questionable individuals joined, so you could have a complete general purpose CPU ISA without needing any of their work
[2024-01-17 23:35:13] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| all of the initial development was done before any of the more questionable individuals joined, so you could have a complete general purpose CPU ISA without needing any of their work
[2024-01-17 23:35:29] <Lucifer_arma> it really looks more like they're just there to facilitate their own companies' cpu development
[2024-01-17 23:35:29] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it really looks more like they're just there to facilitate their own companies' cpu development
[2024-01-17 23:37:50] <Lucifer_arma> but it looks like the biggest reason to prefer msvc over gcc is either because you're using the ide, or you really need to use a newer c++ standard and gcc's biggest criticism is that it's slow to take up new c++ standards
[2024-01-17 23:37:50] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but it looks like the biggest reason to prefer msvc over gcc is either because you're using the ide, or you really need to use a newer c++ standard and gcc's biggest criticism is that it's slow to take up new c++ standards
[2024-01-17 23:38:08] <Lucifer_arma> curiously, clang doesn't have that criticism and is roughly comparable to gcc
[2024-01-17 23:38:08] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| curiously, clang doesn't have that criticism and is roughly comparable to gcc
[2024-01-17 23:38:26] <Lucifer_arma> so, if there's anything we should do to support clang, I think I could get behind that :)
[2024-01-17 23:38:27] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so, if there's anything we should do to support clang, I think I could get behind that :)
[2024-01-17 23:38:50] <Lucifer_arma> (to nobody's surprise, someone singing the virtues of msvc led to me liking another open source compiler)
[2024-01-17 23:38:51] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| (to nobody's surprise, someone singing the virtues of msvc led to me liking another open source compiler)
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