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[2023-08-01 04:53:38] -!- mercury.libera.chat set mode #armagetron +nt
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[2023-08-01 12:06:38] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-05-20 17:23:14 UTC
[2023-08-01 15:43:51] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| Doesn't _everything_ from Taco Bell taste like vomit?
[2023-08-01 15:43:51] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| Doesn't _everything_ from Taco Bell taste like vomit?
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[2023-08-01 16:39:19] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-04-20 19:56:37 UTC
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[2023-08-01 19:17:54] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| In no particular order, these are all the misspellings of "forums" when people try to /login user@forums in my server
[2023-08-01 19:17:55] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| In no particular order, these are all the misspellings of "forums" when people try to /login user@forums in my server
[2023-08-01 19:17:55] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| ```
[2023-08-01 19:17:55] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| ```
[2023-08-01 19:17:56] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| foruns
[2023-08-01 19:17:57] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| foruns
[2023-08-01 19:17:58] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| forusm
[2023-08-01 19:17:58] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| forusm
[2023-08-01 19:17:59] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| fo
[2023-08-01 19:17:59] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| fo
[2023-08-01 19:18:00] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| forum,s
[2023-08-01 19:18:01] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| forum,s
[2023-08-01 19:18:02] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| f
[2023-08-01 19:18:02] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| f
[2023-08-01 19:18:03] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| foru
[2023-08-01 19:18:03] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| foru
[2023-08-01 19:18:04] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| froums
[2023-08-01 19:18:05] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| froums
[2023-08-01 19:18:05] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| forum
[2023-08-01 19:18:06] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| forum
[2023-08-01 19:18:07] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| forumsa
[2023-08-01 19:18:07] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| forumsa
[2023-08-01 19:18:08] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| fforums
[2023-08-01 19:18:08] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| fforums
[2023-08-01 19:18:09] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| foruims```
[2023-08-01 19:18:10] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| foruims```
[2023-08-01 19:18:11] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| Tron points to whoever guesses which is the most common
[2023-08-01 19:18:11] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| Tron points to whoever guesses which is the most common
[2023-08-01 19:20:22] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:abcd0826| @dorianv stop spying on people
[2023-08-01 19:20:22] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:abcd0826| @dorianv stop spying on people
[2023-08-01 19:20:23] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| hmm, i'll take forusm
[2023-08-01 19:20:23] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| hmm, i'll take forusm
[2023-08-01 19:21:41] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:abcd0826| i will go with @forum
[2023-08-01 19:21:43] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:abcd0826| i will go with @forum
[2023-08-01 19:21:50] <armagetronbridge> 15discord:Nélg| can't believe there's no forumus
[2023-08-01 19:21:51] <armagetron-bridge> 15discord:Nélg| can't believe there's no forumus
[2023-08-01 19:21:51] <armagetron-bridge> 15discord:Nélg| https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/209759416604426242/1136076353507172362/image.png
[2023-08-01 19:21:51] <armagetronbridge> 15discord:Nélg| https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/209759416604426242/1136076353507172362/image.png
[2023-08-01 19:22:40] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| it's forum at 7 and forusm at 5!
[2023-08-01 19:22:42] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| it's forum at 7 and forusm at 5!
[2023-08-01 19:23:51] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| 3rd is forum,s at 2, rest are 1
[2023-08-01 19:23:51] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| 3rd is forum,s at 2, rest are 1
[2023-08-01 19:24:14] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:oMag| foru Nanu
[2023-08-01 19:24:14] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:oMag| foru Nanu
[2023-08-01 19:25:47] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| also sub tried logging in with something like `subliminal` followed by almost 3000 `/`s
[2023-08-01 19:25:47] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| also sub tried logging in with something like `subliminal` followed by almost 3000 `/`s
[2023-08-01 19:25:57] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| dayum, 2nd place...ok i'll take it...
[2023-08-01 19:25:57] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| dayum, 2nd place...ok i'll take it...
[2023-08-01 19:27:23] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| also saw this string as an attempt 🤔 `AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-ANTIVIRUS-TEST-FILE!$H+H*.com`
[2023-08-01 19:27:23] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| also saw this string as an attempt 🤔 `AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-ANTIVIRUS-TEST-FILE!$H+H*.com`
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[2023-08-02 04:55:37] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:stereo_system| Must've been nelg xD
[2023-08-02 04:55:37] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:stereo_system| Must've been nelg xD
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[2023-08-02 09:17:25] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| That looks more like an automated endpoint vulnerability test
[2023-08-02 09:17:25] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| That looks more like an automated endpoint vulnerability test
[2023-08-02 09:18:36] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| I have those in place for my systems, although I'm not sure how an eicar test string would play into it
[2023-08-02 09:18:36] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| I have those in place for my systems, although I'm not sure how an eicar test string would play into it
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[2023-08-02 11:53:00] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-04-20 19:56:37 UTC
[2023-08-02 11:58:35] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| sine made it, I guess this account just uploads random steam trailers
[2023-08-02 11:58:35] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| sine made it, I guess this account just uploads random steam trailers
[2023-08-02 12:01:41] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:Dray| Well damn never seen it before @amazing_stories looks good my man
[2023-08-02 12:01:42] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:Dray| Well damn never seen it before @amazing_stories looks good my man
[2023-08-02 12:21:13] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:anjo| lemme get that type face
[2023-08-02 12:21:13] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:anjo| lemme get that type face
[2023-08-02 12:21:57] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:anjo| (the one on the last slide)
[2023-08-02 12:21:58] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:anjo| (the one on the last slide)
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[2023-08-02 15:57:23] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:sine.wav| oooo, I can copyright strike this. thanks!
[2023-08-02 15:57:23] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:sine.wav| oooo, I can copyright strike this. thanks!
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[2023-08-02 23:37:48] <Lucifer_arma> is there a reason to NOT use an SSD for a database server?
[2023-08-02 23:37:49] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| is there a reason to NOT use an SSD for a database server?
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[2023-08-03 16:46:49] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:Dray| https://youtu.be/MRRnraYyop4?si=VGmcQfaz823Q5V8d
[2023-08-03 16:46:50] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:Dray| https://youtu.be/MRRnraYyop4?si=VGmcQfaz823Q5V8d
[2023-08-03 16:46:56] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:Dray| @anjo you watch this yet?
[2023-08-03 16:46:56] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:Dray| @anjo you watch this yet?
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[2023-08-03 18:59:35] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:sine.wav| These guys are amateurs.
[2023-08-03 18:59:35] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:sine.wav| These guys are amateurs.
[2023-08-03 18:59:52] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:sine.wav| I was using wind to play guitar in the 80s.
[2023-08-03 18:59:52] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:sine.wav| I was using wind to play guitar in the 80s.
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[2023-08-03 19:14:15] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:sine.wav| Here is a song my band wrote in the mid-90s. The "drone guitar" that runs through the whole song is an oscillating fan blowing over a Fender Stratocaster with a open-G tuning variant plugged into a 50w Marshall 1969 head and Marshall cabinet. We were never able to get a good recording of this song, but live it was incredible.
[2023-08-03 19:14:16] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:sine.wav| Here is a song my band wrote in the mid-90s. The "drone guitar" that runs through the whole song is an oscillating fan blowing over a Fender Stratocaster with a open-G tuning variant plugged into a 50w Marshall 1969 head and Marshall cabinet. We were never able to get a good recording of this song, but live it was incredible.
[2023-08-03 19:14:16] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:sine.wav| https://soundcloud.com/deepspacepilots/my-enemy-ive-come-to-steal-your-good-white-horse
[2023-08-03 19:14:16] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:sine.wav| https://soundcloud.com/deepspacepilots/my-enemy-ive-come-to-steal-your-good-white-horse
[2023-08-03 21:31:25] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:Dray| @amazing_stories Seems like you've got some hate for Rob
[2023-08-03 21:31:26] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:Dray| @amazing_stories Seems like you've got some hate for Rob
[2023-08-03 21:40:32] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:sine.wav| I've never heard of him actually. Who is he?
[2023-08-03 21:40:32] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:sine.wav| I've never heard of him actually. Who is he?
[2023-08-03 21:41:18] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:sine.wav| I'm just kidding around about the amateur stuff.
[2023-08-03 21:41:19] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:sine.wav| I'm just kidding around about the amateur stuff.
[2023-08-03 21:41:55] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:sine.wav| I like that the video was filmed in Chicago though!
[2023-08-03 21:41:56] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:sine.wav| I like that the video was filmed in Chicago though!
[2023-08-03 21:43:05] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:sine.wav| Where they are is super dangerous, not because you'll get shot or anything, but that part of Lake Michigan, tons of people die right there. They fall in and there is no way to get out and you fall into hypotermia super quick, even in summer.
[2023-08-03 21:43:06] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:sine.wav| Where they are is super dangerous, not because you'll get shot or anything, but that part of Lake Michigan, tons of people die right there. They fall in and there is no way to get out and you fall into hypotermia super quick, even in summer.
[2023-08-03 22:26:14] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:Dray| Oh, thats crazy
[2023-08-03 22:26:14] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:Dray| Oh, thats crazy
[2023-08-03 22:27:00] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:Dray| Rob is a Chicago bases musician and youtuber. Plays a bunch of different instruments and brings to light some pretty cool instruments on youtube.
[2023-08-03 22:27:00] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:Dray| Rob is a Chicago bases musician and youtuber. Plays a bunch of different instruments and brings to light some pretty cool instruments on youtube.
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[2023-08-04 02:57:24] <Lucifer_arma_> @delinquent: the consideration is reliability. I need a big innodb pool because it's one server serving a small parallel processing cluster. I've optimized the job queries pretty well, now the database is the bottleneck.
[2023-08-04 02:57:25] <armagetronbridge> 06irc:Lucifer_arma_| @delinquent: the consideration is reliability. I need a big innodb pool because it's one server serving a small parallel processing cluster. I've optimized the job queries pretty well, now the database is the bottleneck.
[2023-08-04 02:57:43] <Lucifer_arma_> Currently running on my little laptop, which is *not* good database hardware
[2023-08-04 02:57:43] <armagetronbridge> 06irc:Lucifer_arma_| Currently running on my little laptop, which is *not* good database hardware
[2023-08-04 02:59:10] <Lucifer_arma_> I can build a dedicated database right now on a raspi 4, 4GB, and I have a spare SSD I can use for it. So I'm weighing keeping the database on my laptop and throttling jobs to avoid overloading the database or moving it to a raspi that's only running the database.
[2023-08-04 02:59:10] <armagetronbridge> 06irc:Lucifer_arma_| I can build a dedicated database right now on a raspi 4, 4GB, and I have a spare SSD I can use for it. So I'm weighing keeping the database on my laptop and throttling jobs to avoid overloading the database or moving it to a raspi that's only running the database.
[2023-08-04 03:00:00] <Lucifer_arma_> That'll put two raspis as worker nodes, one as a database, and the scheduler running on my laptop. Four nodes in the cluster in total, with the laptop doing it's regular duty as my desktop PC as well
[2023-08-04 03:00:00] <armagetronbridge> 06irc:Lucifer_arma_| That'll put two raspis as worker nodes, one as a database, and the scheduler running on my laptop. Four nodes in the cluster in total, with the laptop doing it's regular duty as my desktop PC as well
[2023-08-04 03:01:30] <Lucifer_arma_> but the pi's, being four core, can easily be running 8 jobs simultaneously, all hitting the database at the same time using a python cursor.executemany call. So I need hardware that can handle that, and handle building out up to at least four total workers in the next month or so
[2023-08-04 03:01:30] <armagetronbridge> 06irc:Lucifer_arma_| but the pi's, being four core, can easily be running 8 jobs simultaneously, all hitting the database at the same time using a python cursor.executemany call. So I need hardware that can handle that, and handle building out up to at least four total workers in the next month or so
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[2023-08-04 07:30:49] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Lucifer_arma If you have large read/write ops, a larger InnoDB pool isn't a good move - especially on a RasPi which doesn't utilise ECC. A large InnoDB pool is more effective when you have a great deal of smaller ops, particularly as the pool won't be that large on a Pi to begin with, curtailing any effectiveness of the pool regardless. To put that into perspective, I have an ins <clipped message>
[2023-08-04 07:30:49] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Lucifer_arma If you have large read/write ops, a larger InnoDB pool isn't a good move - especially on a RasPi which doesn't utilise ECC. A large InnoDB pool is more effective when you have a great deal of smaller ops, particularly as the pool won't be that large on a Pi to begin with, curtailing any effectiveness of the pool regardless. To put that into perspective, I have an ins <clipped message>
[2023-08-04 07:30:49] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| tance with a variable pool size, which usually sits at around 120Gb. Even that is not always enough to cache *everything*, and we have flash storage as our medium too. Ideally I'd have a more modular setup, but I'm already knocking at the limits of what power can be delivered.
[2023-08-04 07:30:50] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| tance with a variable pool size, which usually sits at around 120Gb. Even that is not always enough to cache *everything*, and we have flash storage as our medium too. Ideally I'd have a more modular setup, but I'm already knocking at the limits of what power can be delivered.
[2023-08-04 07:30:51] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| If this is a smaller-scale project, it's far more effective to go with flash storage and a somewhat smaller pool - the host also needs memory for its own I/O, plus db backend, plus overhead. I'd give it 2Gb max, stick the SSD in it, and call it a day. Besides, a RasPi comes with other considerations - it claims, for example, to support Gigabit ethernet, and while that is technica <clipped message>
[2023-08-04 07:30:51] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| If this is a smaller-scale project, it's far more effective to go with flash storage and a somewhat smaller pool - the host also needs memory for its own I/O, plus db backend, plus overhead. I'd give it 2Gb max, stick the SSD in it, and call it a day. Besides, a RasPi comes with other considerations - it claims, for example, to support Gigabit ethernet, and while that is technica <clipped message>
[2023-08-04 07:30:52] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| lly true, it can't necessarily maintain that bandwidth at a sustained rate. Not much point having a larger pool if you can never utilise it.
[2023-08-04 07:30:53] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| lly true, it can't necessarily maintain that bandwidth at a sustained rate. Not much point having a larger pool if you can never utilise it.
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[2023-08-04 22:46:59] <Lucifer_arma_> @delinquent: Right now, they're only "large" because it's updating almost from scratch. After that, the inserts will be small. Right now, the database is on this: Intel(R) Pentium(R) Silver N5030 CPU @ 1.10GHz
[2023-08-04 22:46:59] <armagetronbridge> 06irc:Lucifer_arma_| @delinquent: Right now, they're only "large" because it's updating almost from scratch. After that, the inserts will be small. Right now, the database is on this: Intel(R) Pentium(R) Silver N5030 CPU @ 1.10GHz
[2023-08-04 22:48:11] <Lucifer_arma_> it's also an SSD, because that's what it came with. If I move the database to the other pi, I'd be willing to buy an inexpensive hard drive if it's more reliable and/or faster (but just as reliable). I'm not yet willing to get too crazy with optimizing the database when I still have code to work on.
[2023-08-04 22:48:12] <armagetronbridge> 06irc:Lucifer_arma_| it's also an SSD, because that's what it came with. If I move the database to the other pi, I'd be willing to buy an inexpensive hard drive if it's more reliable and/or faster (but just as reliable). I'm not yet willing to get too crazy with optimizing the database when I still have code to work on.
[2023-08-04 22:49:02] <Lucifer_arma_> I *can* slow down job execution, and there's a few places I'm hitting the database unnecessarily often, that sort of stuff.
[2023-08-04 22:49:02] <armagetronbridge> 06irc:Lucifer_arma_| I *can* slow down job execution, and there's a few places I'm hitting the database unnecessarily often, that sort of stuff.
[2023-08-04 22:49:43] <Lucifer_arma_> I don't have a read on how much bandwidth the pi's are actually using. The wifi is also gigabit, and supposedly, the problems the pi 3 had are fixed, so supposedly the pi 4 has full gigabit capabilities
[2023-08-04 22:49:43] <armagetronbridge> 06irc:Lucifer_arma_| I don't have a read on how much bandwidth the pi's are actually using. The wifi is also gigabit, and supposedly, the problems the pi 3 had are fixed, so supposedly the pi 4 has full gigabit capabilities
[2023-08-04 22:51:43] <Lucifer_arma_> So, what I'm getting from this conversation is that I should leave the database as-is (even with the increased innodb pool that I already did) and focus on the cluster software. If the database continues to get bogged down, throttle down job execution, and later, when this damn thing has made me some money, build a good database server that can handle everything
[2023-08-04 22:51:45] <armagetronbridge> 06irc:Lucifer_arma_| So, what I'm getting from this conversation is that I should leave the database as-is (even with the increased innodb pool that I already did) and focus on the cluster software. If the database continues to get bogged down, throttle down job execution, and later, when this damn thing has made me some money, build a good database server that can handle everything
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[2023-08-05 07:08:29] <zmanuel> You turn your back to this channel for a minute and it gets flooded!
[2023-08-05 07:08:30] <armagetronbridge> 13irc:zmanuel| You turn your back to this channel for a minute and it gets flooded!
[2023-08-05 07:08:54] <armagetronbridge> 13irc:zmanuel| (It's fine, though. Definitely an improvement.)
[2023-08-05 07:08:54] <zmanuel> (It's fine, though. Definitely an improvement.)
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[2023-08-05 08:57:49] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Lucifer_arma: Pretty much. If it's already sitting on an SSD, I'd just leave it.
[2023-08-05 08:57:49] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Lucifer_arma: Pretty much. If it's already sitting on an SSD, I'd just leave it.
[2023-08-05 08:57:49] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Thing about the gigabit connection stuff is that the pi is limited by its own hardware. It's fine if it's doing very basic operations, but if you start hitting storage straight off the network, that "gigabit" is going to look much closer to 10/100 real quick. IIRC, the networking stuff is handled by the SoC, not by a dedicated ethernet controller (correct me if I'm wrong?), so on <clipped message>
[2023-08-05 08:57:50] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Thing about the gigabit connection stuff is that the pi is limited by its own hardware. It's fine if it's doing very basic operations, but if you start hitting storage straight off the network, that "gigabit" is going to look much closer to 10/100 real quick. IIRC, the networking stuff is handled by the SoC, not by a dedicated ethernet controller (correct me if I'm wrong?), so on <clipped message>
[2023-08-05 08:57:51] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| ce you start adding other tasks on top, there's less a resource pool to manage a high bandwidth connection.
[2023-08-05 08:57:52] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| ce you start adding other tasks on top, there's less a resource pool to manage a high bandwidth connection.
[2023-08-05 08:57:52] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Not that it really matters unless you start hammering your DB anyway.
[2023-08-05 08:57:53] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Not that it really matters unless you start hammering your DB anyway.
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[2023-08-06 03:23:57] <Z-Man> Lovely. From yesterday (release candidate builds) to today (release builds), debian stretch update repositories went away, breaking tests and therefore the build.
[2023-08-06 03:23:58] <armagetronbridge> 15irc:Z-Man| Lovely. From yesterday (release candidate builds) to today (release builds), debian stretch update repositories went away, breaking tests and therefore the build.
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[2023-08-06 03:43:44] <armagetronbridge> 15irc:Z-Man| Ah, they are not gone permanently, just really unreliable right now.
[2023-08-06 03:43:44] <Z-Man> Ah, they are not gone permanently, just really unreliable right now.
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[2023-08-06 22:40:54] <Lucifer_arma> @delingquent: And the db isn't on a raspberry pi right now anyway, it's on an intel laptop. :) So I'm thinking I'll be looking for better db hardware than a raspberry pi when it's time to upgrade the db hardware, and I'll put that third pi to work as a worker instead, whenever I get a power supply for it.
[2023-08-06 22:40:55] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| @delingquent: And the db isn't on a raspberry pi right now anyway, it's on an intel laptop. :) So I'm thinking I'll be looking for better db hardware than a raspberry pi when it's time to upgrade the db hardware, and I'll put that third pi to work as a worker instead, whenever I get a power supply for it.
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[2023-08-07 00:39:24] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: did you see my message about blosc? I don't know if we're still interested in compressing packets, but that's what I found it for on the stockanalyst. It made a job message much smaller, decreasing latency overall because of the much smaller number of messages sent overall
[2023-08-07 00:39:24] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Z-Man: did you see my message about blosc? I don't know if we're still interested in compressing packets, but that's what I found it for on the stockanalyst. It made a job message much smaller, decreasing latency overall because of the much smaller number of messages sent overall
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[2023-08-07 22:41:04] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "Armagetron Advanced | http://www.armagetronad.org/ | Welcome to IRC"
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[2023-08-07 22:41:51] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-05-20 17:23:14 UTC
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[2023-08-09 09:41:00] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-04-20 19:56:37 UTC
[2023-08-09 10:09:22] <armagetron-bridge> 10discord:stice59| Hey guys
[2023-08-09 10:09:22] <armagetronbridge> 10discord:stice59| Hey guys
[2023-08-09 10:09:32] <armagetronbridge> 10discord:stice59| Does someone know if No one is still playing?
[2023-08-09 10:09:32] <armagetron-bridge> 10discord:stice59| Does someone know if No one is still playing?
[2023-08-09 10:09:51] <armagetron-bridge> 10discord:stice59| i mean
[2023-08-09 10:09:51] <armagetronbridge> 10discord:stice59| i mean
[2023-08-09 10:09:52] <armagetron-bridge> 10discord:stice59| the player
[2023-08-09 10:09:52] <armagetronbridge> 10discord:stice59| the player
[2023-08-09 10:10:14] <armagetron-bridge> 10discord:stice59| Matt_noOne / No_One etc
[2023-08-09 10:10:14] <armagetronbridge> 10discord:stice59| Matt_noOne / No_One etc
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[2023-08-09 11:06:57] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-04-20 19:56:37 UTC
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[2023-08-09 13:58:47] <armagetron-bridge> 13discord:reserved2885| Haven’t seen him
[2023-08-09 13:58:48] <armagetronbridge> 13discord:reserved2885| Haven’t seen him
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[2023-08-09 19:34:02] <Lucifer_arma> Wow. Power's been fluctuating since around 10pm last night. Wind and extreme heat. We're at 106F right now
[2023-08-09 19:34:03] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Wow. Power's been fluctuating since around 10pm last night. Wind and extreme heat. We're at 106F right now
[2023-08-09 19:34:35] <Lucifer_arma> Anybody caught up in the wave of storms and hurricane force winds in the northernish/eastern seaboard?
[2023-08-09 19:34:35] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Anybody caught up in the wave of storms and hurricane force winds in the northernish/eastern seaboard?
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[2023-08-10 22:29:42] <Lucifer_arma> grrrr. If I do a polyfit with polynomial degree 0, isn't that just a simple mean?
[2023-08-10 22:29:43] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| grrrr. If I do a polyfit with polynomial degree 0, isn't that just a simple mean?
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[2023-08-11 01:33:26] <armagetronbridge> 10discord:somewhere over the hills,| what is this bot i dont even see it when try ing to ping it
[2023-08-11 01:33:26] <armagetron-bridge> 10discord:somewhere over the hills,| what is this bot i dont even see it when try ing to ping it
[2023-08-11 01:33:45] <armagetronbridge> 10discord:somewhere over the hills,| no profile thing eather like the other bots
[2023-08-11 01:33:45] <armagetron-bridge> 10discord:somewhere over the hills,| no profile thing eather like the other bots
[2023-08-11 01:34:43] <armagetronbridge> 10discord:somewhere over the hills,| Lucifer_arma: s
[2023-08-11 01:34:44] <armagetron-bridge> 10discord:somewhere over the hills,| Lucifer_arma: s
[2023-08-11 03:25:37] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| it just prints the chat from the irc channel with the user's name as bot's name
[2023-08-11 03:25:37] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| it just prints the chat from the irc channel with the user's name as bot's name
[2023-08-11 04:30:03] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:Rx.Luigi (Best LDF Player Ever)| Did he play Loose Dogfight Name sounds familiar
[2023-08-11 04:30:04] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:Rx.Luigi (Best LDF Player Ever)| Did he play Loose Dogfight Name sounds familiar
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[2023-08-11 07:38:30] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Not a bot. It is a bridge between Discord and IRC, so we can see IRC messages here and vice versa
[2023-08-11 07:38:30] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Not a bot. It is a bridge between Discord and IRC, so we can see IRC messages here and vice versa
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[2023-08-12 08:46:51] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "Armagetron Advanced | http://www.armagetronad.org/ | Welcome to IRC"
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[2023-08-12 23:45:52] <Lucifer_arma> Is he saying my name sounds familiar?
[2023-08-12 23:45:53] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Is he saying my name sounds familiar?
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[2023-08-13 04:48:39] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-04-20 19:56:37 UTC
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[2023-08-13 07:50:15] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| I'm not sure I know *what* they're saying half the time
[2023-08-13 07:50:16] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| I'm not sure I know *what* they're saying half the time
[2023-08-13 08:12:36] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| as for Luigi, they answered to Stice who asked about No_One
[2023-08-13 08:12:37] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| as for Luigi, they answered to Stice who asked about No_One
[2023-08-13 08:14:04] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Oh, I'm stupid
[2023-08-13 08:14:04] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Oh, I'm stupid
[2023-08-13 08:14:25] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| ya Lucifer_arma Discord has a reply feature, which is hidden from the bridge unfortunately
[2023-08-13 08:14:25] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| ya Lucifer_arma Discord has a reply feature, which is hidden from the bridge unfortunately
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[2023-08-13 11:51:37] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-04-20 19:56:37 UTC
[2023-08-13 14:46:57] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: No, I missed that. We are using zlib or similar for compression in 0.4, but not naively; we use differential compression. So we first compress a reference message, then the reference message with the actual message appended, then we transmit what gets added by that. We abuse that to allow ourselves to shamelessly send redundant data. A compressor that can just work on its own would be great; that could eliminate the management
[2023-08-13 14:46:57] <Z-Man> of the reference messages.
[2023-08-13 14:46:57] <armagetronbridge> 15irc:Z-Man| Lucifer_arma: No, I missed that. We are using zlib or similar for compression in 0.4, but not naively; we use differential compression. So we first compress a reference message, then the reference message with the actual message appended, then we transmit what gets added by that. We abuse that to allow ourselves to shamelessly send redundant data. A compressor that can just work <clipped message>
[2023-08-13 14:46:57] <armagetronbridge> 15irc:Z-Man| on its own would be great; that could eliminate the management
[2023-08-13 14:46:59] <armagetronbridge> 15irc:Z-Man| of the reference messages.
[2023-08-13 14:49:31] <Z-Man> Made a note: https://gitlab.com/armagetronad/armagetronad/-/issues/135
[2023-08-13 14:49:32] <armagetronbridge> 15irc:Z-Man| Made a note: https://gitlab.com/armagetronad/armagetronad/-/issues/135
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[2023-08-14 04:49:13] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Z-Man speaking of networking stuff, I've been noticing a significant uptick in weird lossy behaviour in armagetron lately. A flick through the tron media channel here on discord shows quit e afew people seeing it, and it's no longer just in my servers. Admittedly one machine did have an issue, but it's been turning up on other machines which have no indications of any sort of fau <clipped message>
[2023-08-14 04:49:13] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Z-Man speaking of networking stuff, I've been noticing a significant uptick in weird lossy behaviour in armagetron lately. A flick through the tron media channel here on discord shows quit e afew people seeing it, and it's no longer just in my servers. Admittedly one machine did have an issue, but it's been turning up on other machines which have no indications of any sort of fau <clipped message>
[2023-08-14 04:49:13] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| lt, and aren't doing anything other than hosting armagetron. I'm starting to wonder if perhaps it is time to think about introducing smudging into the game, if only to prevent the weird sort of occurrences such as that demonstrated by nelg, koala, ampz, among others
[2023-08-14 04:49:13] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| lt, and aren't doing anything other than hosting armagetron. I'm starting to wonder if perhaps it is time to think about introducing smudging into the game, if only to prevent the weird sort of occurrences such as that demonstrated by nelg, koala, ampz, among others
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[2023-08-15 00:15:11] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: the way I'm using blosc, I'm leaving the header intact, and it's 64 bytes. The payload of the message gets compressed. In multipart messages, I first encode the entire message, then compress it, then I break up that bytestream into smaller chunks and stick headers on each one to make them separate messages
[2023-08-15 00:15:11] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Z-Man: the way I'm using blosc, I'm leaving the header intact, and it's 64 bytes. The payload of the message gets compressed. In multipart messages, I first encode the entire message, then compress it, then I break up that bytestream into smaller chunks and stick headers on each one to make them separate messages
[2023-08-15 00:16:44] <Lucifer_arma> A message that's normally around, say, 128 bytes, winds up around 80-90 bytes, maybe 100. But when I get nearly 2:1 compression with the big multipart messages, where uncompressed would give me 170 separate messages and compressing, leaving the header uncompressed, gives me 71 messages, well, I'm impressed :)
[2023-08-15 00:16:45] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| A message that's normally around, say, 128 bytes, winds up around 80-90 bytes, maybe 100. But when I get nearly 2:1 compression with the big multipart messages, where uncompressed would give me 170 separate messages and compressing, leaving the header uncompressed, gives me 71 messages, well, I'm impressed :)
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[2023-08-16 13:41:39] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| @northernscrub What is smudging in this context? I only know it as a paint tool in image manipulation and just learned that it is also getting high on burning herbs.
[2023-08-16 13:41:39] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| @northernscrub What is smudging in this context? I only know it as a paint tool in image manipulation and just learned that it is also getting high on burning herbs.
[2023-08-16 14:22:41] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| @zman_0 It might have different nomenclature. It's basically evaluating a projected path, analysing whether or not a new change would alter **existing parts** of that path, and disallowing path changes if they would form an illegal move, unless sufficient evidence is gathered to support the removal of a previous change as illegal. In the context of Armagetron, it could conceivabl <clipped message>
[2023-08-16 14:22:41] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| @zman_0 It might have different nomenclature. It's basically evaluating a projected path, analysing whether or not a new change would alter **existing parts** of that path, and disallowing path changes if they would form an illegal move, unless sufficient evidence is gathered to support the removal of a previous change as illegal. In the context of Armagetron, it could conceivabl <clipped message>
[2023-08-16 14:22:42] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| y be an extension of ping rubber, enacted whenever a threshhold is reached with regards to packets arriving out of order. I'm still wrapping my head around the physics of how it would or could be done, in all honesty
[2023-08-16 14:22:42] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| y be an extension of ping rubber, enacted whenever a threshhold is reached with regards to packets arriving out of order. I'm still wrapping my head around the physics of how it would or could be done, in all honesty
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[2023-08-16 18:03:14] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| @entroqy also had a quick look, it's not the main site/application but some third party tool/service for discord - but if anyone in here has used that service and also has an account there on that site, then yes, that account's data apparently got hacked yesterday!
[2023-08-16 18:03:14] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| @entroqy also had a quick look, it's not the main site/application but some third party tool/service for discord - but if anyone in here has used that service and also has an account there on that site, then yes, that account's data apparently got hacked yesterday!
[2023-08-16 18:04:00] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| (if someone used it but without a special account there, they're fine)
[2023-08-16 18:04:00] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| (if someone used it but without a special account there, they're fine)
[2023-08-16 18:23:51] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:entroqy| The other day I was thinking how much I appreciate that Discord really helped this community thrive, so that woulda been a really uncomfortable karma experience xD
[2023-08-16 18:23:52] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:entroqy| The other day I was thinking how much I appreciate that Discord really helped this community thrive, so that woulda been a really uncomfortable karma experience xD
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[2023-08-17 13:40:32] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| @northernscrub I don't fully understand what you are suggesting. We have one case where the server rewrites history, it's the "zero rubber death". If ping charity is a thing an a high ping player cuts a low ping player, because the high ping player's timer runs late on the server, the server only notices that after the low ping player has already passed. If possible, the low ping <clipped message>
[2023-08-17 13:40:32] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| @northernscrub I don't fully understand what you are suggesting. We have one case where the server rewrites history, it's the "zero rubber death". If ping charity is a thing an a high ping player cuts a low ping player, because the high ping player's timer runs late on the server, the server only notices that after the low ping player has already passed. If possible, the low ping <clipped message>
[2023-08-17 13:40:32] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| player is then reset to the position of the cut. If the low ping player has turned in the meantime, though, that is no longer possible and the low ping player is just killed.
[2023-08-17 13:40:32] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| player is then reset to the position of the cut. If the low ping player has turned in the meantime, though, that is no longer possible and the low ping player is just killed.
[2023-08-17 13:45:35] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Generally, I tried to follow these principles. They're not the only possible ones!
[2023-08-17 13:45:36] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Generally, I tried to follow these principles. They're not the only possible ones!
[2023-08-17 13:45:36] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| 1. The server has the absolute truth.
[2023-08-17 13:45:37] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| 1. The server has the absolute truth.
[2023-08-17 13:45:37] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| 2. Clients have two, and only two, versions of the truth: Their own preliminary truth, guided by the player input that has not yet made the round trip to the server. And the remote truth, the copy of the server's truth that it gets with syncs.
[2023-08-17 13:45:38] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| 2. Clients have two, and only two, versions of the truth: Their own preliminary truth, guided by the player input that has not yet made the round trip to the server. And the remote truth, the copy of the server's truth that it gets with syncs.
[2023-08-17 13:45:39] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| 3. The server tries to make the absolute truth as close to the client's preliminary truth as the rules allow.
[2023-08-17 13:45:39] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| 3. The server tries to make the absolute truth as close to the client's preliminary truth as the rules allow.
[2023-08-17 13:45:40] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| 3. Clients will try to reconcile their preliminary truth with the remote truth, but very cautiously. Any corrections (slides) are disorienting. You don't want them to go this way, then the other way because the client was overcompensating first.
[2023-08-17 13:45:41] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| 3. Clients will try to reconcile their preliminary truth with the remote truth, but very cautiously. Any corrections (slides) are disorienting. You don't want them to go this way, then the other way because the client was overcompensating first.
[2023-08-17 13:45:41] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Yeah, I dunno where I was going there and what the relevance was 🙂
[2023-08-17 13:45:42] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Yeah, I dunno where I was going there and what the relevance was 🙂
[2023-08-17 14:08:49] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| I have to confess, I'm having some trouble putting what I'm seeing in my head into words. However, I'm starting to see that any implementation of what I'm thinking of would require more client trust, which may not be a good idea. It might be possible to mitigate that somewhat... maybe? In short, the objective would be to rely more on timestamped orientation and positioning as dic <clipped message>
[2023-08-17 14:08:50] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| I have to confess, I'm having some trouble putting what I'm seeing in my head into words. However, I'm starting to see that any implementation of what I'm thinking of would require more client trust, which may not be a good idea. It might be possible to mitigate that somewhat... maybe? In short, the objective would be to rely more on timestamped orientation and positioning as dic <clipped message>
[2023-08-17 14:08:50] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| tated by the client, but it would also be easy enough to hijack this to change positions and wall placement after the fact.
[2023-08-17 14:08:50] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| tated by the client, but it would also be easy enough to hijack this to change positions and wall placement after the fact.
[2023-08-17 14:08:51] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Maybe compression is the answer. Or maybe marking armagetron traffic with as many different priority indicators as possible could help. Discord already does this, some netgear users will attest to it.
[2023-08-17 14:08:52] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Maybe compression is the answer. Or maybe marking armagetron traffic with as many different priority indicators as possible could help. Discord already does this, some netgear users will attest to it.
[2023-08-17 15:07:30] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| "Or maybe marking armagetron traffic with as many different priority indicators as possible could help"
[2023-08-17 15:07:30] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| "Or maybe marking armagetron traffic with as many different priority indicators as possible could help"
[2023-08-17 15:07:30] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| I think I like this idea a lot.
[2023-08-17 15:07:31] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| I think I like this idea a lot.
[2023-08-17 15:08:38] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Yeah, me too. Is there a standard API way to do that? I looked into it waaaay back, and then the concept barely existed, let alone ways to access it from a sending application.
[2023-08-17 15:08:38] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Yeah, me too. Is there a standard API way to do that? I looked into it waaaay back, and then the concept barely existed, let alone ways to access it from a sending application.
[2023-08-17 15:15:37] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| There seems to be a way with setsockopt:
[2023-08-17 15:15:37] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| https://stackoverflow.com/a/70623636
[2023-08-17 15:15:37] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| There seems to be a way with setsockopt:
[2023-08-17 15:15:38] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| https://stackoverflow.com/a/70623636
[2023-08-17 15:15:38] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| https://groups.google.com/g/libuv/c/8b0lvUqnGaM?pli=1
[2023-08-17 15:15:39] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| https://groups.google.com/g/libuv/c/8b0lvUqnGaM?pli=1
[2023-08-17 15:24:00] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| If you figure out a way to set dscp to 101, I'll install that branch on the fort/sumo pickup servers that I host
[2023-08-17 15:24:01] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| If you figure out a way to set dscp to 101, I'll install that branch on the fort/sumo pickup servers that I host
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[2023-08-18 01:22:13] <Lucifer_arma> @delinquent: The issue is that client clocks are inherently untrustworthy. The only timestamps the server can rely on are the server's. It would be trivial to modify the client to simply subtract 150ms from every timestamp sent to the server, and there's no fancy cheat detection algorithm that would spot a constant change like that.
[2023-08-18 01:22:14] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| @delinquent: The issue is that client clocks are inherently untrustworthy. The only timestamps the server can rely on are the server's. It would be trivial to modify the client to simply subtract 150ms from every timestamp sent to the server, and there's no fancy cheat detection algorithm that would spot a constant change like that.
[2023-08-18 01:23:29] <Lucifer_arma> You could then go with a voting system of sorts, where every connected client votes on what the correct state of the game is, but the action moves too fast for that to work without a whole buttload of added latency. This sort of thing is used in a lot of RTS games, and can even work in a turn-based context, although in turn-based contexts, there's no reason not to declare the server as canonical
[2023-08-18 01:23:29] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| You could then go with a voting system of sorts, where every connected client votes on what the correct state of the game is, but the action moves too fast for that to work without a whole buttload of added latency. This sort of thing is used in a lot of RTS games, and can even work in a turn-based context, although in turn-based contexts, there's no reason not to declare the server as canonical
[2023-08-18 01:25:04] <Lucifer_arma> We could use time-syncing algorithms ripped from NTP (and I seem to recall having this discussion before and Z-man did do something, but I don't know exactly what, other than it resulted in the "syncing with server" message when you join a server)
[2023-08-18 01:25:04] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| We could use time-syncing algorithms ripped from NTP (and I seem to recall having this discussion before and Z-man did do something, but I don't know exactly what, other than it resulted in the "syncing with server" message when you join a server)
[2023-08-18 01:26:06] <Lucifer_arma> to sync all the client clocks, but that's also subject to local modification. It's possible for the server to let the clients decide locally, i.e. try to work out, based on two clients' inputs, what the correct order of events is, but then, that's basically what z-man just described :)
[2023-08-18 01:26:06] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| to sync all the client clocks, but that's also subject to local modification. It's possible for the server to let the clients decide locally, i.e. try to work out, based on two clients' inputs, what the correct order of events is, but then, that's basically what z-man just described :)
[2023-08-18 01:27:45] <Lucifer_arma> compression is only an answer for bandwidth usage. It *might* reduce latency when packets are lost due to their size, but that's probably not going to be something that's terribly visible. If anything, it'll add latency because of the time spent compressing and decompressing packets
[2023-08-18 01:27:46] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| compression is only an answer for bandwidth usage. It *might* reduce latency when packets are lost due to their size, but that's probably not going to be something that's terribly visible. If anything, it'll add latency because of the time spent compressing and decompressing packets
[2023-08-18 01:28:21] <Lucifer_arma> The reason I pointed to blosc is because it's high performance, and hearing about the use of zlib, I think there may be a latency drop by switching to blosc, but I couldn't guess by how much
[2023-08-18 01:28:22] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| The reason I pointed to blosc is because it's high performance, and hearing about the use of zlib, I think there may be a latency drop by switching to blosc, but I couldn't guess by how much
[2023-08-18 01:28:51] <Lucifer_arma> and also because I tried zlib in my own application and it made the messages bigger, so I was a little surprised z-man found a way to make it useful here :)
[2023-08-18 01:28:52] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| and also because I tried zlib in my own application and it made the messages bigger, so I was a little surprised z-man found a way to make it useful here :)
[2023-08-18 01:31:48] <Lucifer_arma> but when you look at the hardware level, actual packet sizes vary dramatically depending on the hardware itself, i.e. cable vs dsl vs wifi. A wired connection is still the most reliable, and a dedicated line like dsl is still better than cable. The underlying protocols just are what they are, and there's nothing we can do at the socket level that can change those
[2023-08-18 01:31:48] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but when you look at the hardware level, actual packet sizes vary dramatically depending on the hardware itself, i.e. cable vs dsl vs wifi. A wired connection is still the most reliable, and a dedicated line like dsl is still better than cable. The underlying protocols just are what they are, and there's nothing we can do at the socket level that can change those
[2023-08-18 01:32:26] <Lucifer_arma> also, full server hardware is more reliable than a VPS, but also much more expensive :)
[2023-08-18 01:32:26] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| also, full server hardware is more reliable than a VPS, but also much more expensive :)
[2023-08-18 01:34:32] <Lucifer_arma> it might be possible to reduce latency by parallelizing the server more, but "more" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. The only improvement I can think of would be to spin the network layer out to a separate process, but then you're using pipes to communicate back to the simulation from the network layer
[2023-08-18 01:34:33] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it might be possible to reduce latency by parallelizing the server more, but "more" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. The only improvement I can think of would be to spin the network layer out to a separate process, but then you're using pipes to communicate back to the simulation from the network layer
[2023-08-18 01:35:08] <Lucifer_arma> so pings and packet exchanges might be faster (in a multicore environment, of course), but getting turns into the simulation and syncs out from it could wind up taking longer because of the added overhead of IPC
[2023-08-18 01:35:08] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so pings and packet exchanges might be faster (in a multicore environment, of course), but getting turns into the simulation and syncs out from it could wind up taking longer because of the added overhead of IPC
[2023-08-18 01:35:40] <Lucifer_arma> it's in a thread right now, and modern CPUs have extra features to enhance multithreading, so that's probably the best we're going to get there
[2023-08-18 01:35:41] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it's in a thread right now, and modern CPUs have extra features to enhance multithreading, so that's probably the best we're going to get there
[2023-08-18 01:36:39] <Lucifer_arma> but I suppose it may be possible to break the simulation down into parts that could be spun out into multiple processes, heh, but I can't imagine there being a gain there that's worth the headache of that kind of coding, if there's a gain there at all
[2023-08-18 01:36:40] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but I suppose it may be possible to break the simulation down into parts that could be spun out into multiple processes, heh, but I can't imagine there being a gain there that's worth the headache of that kind of coding, if there's a gain there at all
[2023-08-18 01:40:32] <Lucifer_arma> now that I"m thinking about it, the only breakdown that comes to mind as being useful would be to split the grid into zones for each core on the CPU and run the simulation in each zone simultaneously. Resolving what happens when objects cross over barriers, and synchronizing events like walls dropping would be the tricky parts that I'm seeing
[2023-08-18 01:40:32] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| now that I"m thinking about it, the only breakdown that comes to mind as being useful would be to split the grid into zones for each core on the CPU and run the simulation in each zone simultaneously. Resolving what happens when objects cross over barriers, and synchronizing events like walls dropping would be the tricky parts that I'm seeing
[2023-08-18 01:41:47] <Lucifer_arma> Different game types might lend themselves well to that sort of thing, while others would be better served by a single process. But that's basically what MMORPGs do. But then, latency isn't as bad there.
[2023-08-18 01:41:48] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Different game types might lend themselves well to that sort of thing, while others would be better served by a single process. But that's basically what MMORPGs do. But then, latency isn't as bad there.
[2023-08-18 01:42:18] <Lucifer_arma> (despite the whining whiners who blame LAG for their own inability to play well)
[2023-08-18 01:42:18] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| (despite the whining whiners who blame LAG for their own inability to play well)
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[2023-08-18 01:47:34] <Lucifer_arma> but for a high action game like arma in the relatively small playing fields, I really don't see any additional parallelization giving us any gains and probably would wind up a whole lot of costs.
[2023-08-18 01:47:34] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but for a high action game like arma in the relatively small playing fields, I really don't see any additional parallelization giving us any gains and probably would wind up a whole lot of costs.
[2023-08-18 01:47:49] <Lucifer_arma> But if you wanted an infinite grid with an infinite number of players, that would be the way to go :)
[2023-08-18 01:47:50] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| But if you wanted an infinite grid with an infinite number of players, that would be the way to go :)
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[2023-08-18 06:13:21] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > client clocks inherently untrustworthy
[2023-08-18 06:13:22] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > client clocks inherently untrustworthy
[2023-08-18 06:13:22] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| This is the hurdle I came up against, although not in specific terms. It's conceivably possible to mitigate some of this by requiring that the game pass an integrity check prior to connecting, but that isn't a whole solution as it doesn't account for interference after the check has been completed.
[2023-08-18 06:13:22] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| This is the hurdle I came up against, although not in specific terms. It's conceivably possible to mitigate some of this by requiring that the game pass an integrity check prior to connecting, but that isn't a whole solution as it doesn't account for interference after the check has been completed.
[2023-08-18 06:13:26] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > NTP
[2023-08-18 06:13:26] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > NTP
[2023-08-18 06:13:26] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| This is an interesting one. It might be feasible to use a sandboxed form of NTP that relies on the game server to function as a time server in more ways than it already does, but it doesn't really address every issue and it's a lot of work for very little reward (afaik, I'm not a C++ dev)
[2023-08-18 06:13:26] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| This is an interesting one. It might be feasible to use a sandboxed form of NTP that relies on the game server to function as a time server in more ways than it already does, but it doesn't really address every issue and it's a lot of work for very little reward (afaik, I'm not a C++ dev)
[2023-08-18 06:13:30] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > Compression
[2023-08-18 06:13:31] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > Compression
[2023-08-18 06:13:31] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| This might not solve every problem, but it might enable the firehose approach. Given Armagetron uses very little data, it might be feasible to send each packet three or four times, in the hopes that any loss will be negated. It would require the server to adopt a "first in queue" approach, and each packet to be marked with a timestamp so that duplicates can be easily discarded, b <clipped message>
[2023-08-18 06:13:31] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| This might not solve every problem, but it might enable the firehose approach. Given Armagetron uses very little data, it might be feasible to send each packet three or four times, in the hopes that any loss will be negated. It would require the server to adopt a "first in queue" approach, and each packet to be marked with a timestamp so that duplicates can be easily discarded, b <clipped message>
[2023-08-18 06:13:32] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| ut it would certainly help with the disappearing walls problem.
[2023-08-18 06:13:33] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| ut it would certainly help with the disappearing walls problem.
[2023-08-18 06:13:35] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > Full hardware/vps
[2023-08-18 06:13:36] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Surprisingly, I don't see that much a difference when it comes to armagetron. My UK servers are running on bare metal, on hardware in my DC, and their real-world performance (when nothign is going wrong) is not dissimilar to the VPS machines I operate in Washington DC. Obviously there is some measurable overhead, but it's negligible from behind armagetron.
[2023-08-18 06:13:36] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > Full hardware/vps
[2023-08-18 06:13:36] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Surprisingly, I don't see that much a difference when it comes to armagetron. My UK servers are running on bare metal, on hardware in my DC, and their real-world performance (when nothign is going wrong) is not dissimilar to the VPS machines I operate in Washington DC. Obviously there is some measurable overhead, but it's negligible from behind armagetron.
[2023-08-18 06:13:42] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > zone-splitting per CPU
[2023-08-18 06:13:43] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > zone-splitting per CPU
[2023-08-18 06:13:43] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Maybe. And that's a tentative maybe. Problem you have here is that you'll inevitably either create race conditions, or enforced wait conditions. Even in this decade, multi-core systems aren't necessarily completely in sync with each other, which is why ever so much is delegated to the scheduler. It could be possible to move things like scoring, creating and destroying grids and c <clipped message>
[2023-08-18 06:13:43] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Maybe. And that's a tentative maybe. Problem you have here is that you'll inevitably either create race conditions, or enforced wait conditions. Even in this decade, multi-core systems aren't necessarily completely in sync with each other, which is why ever so much is delegated to the scheduler. It could be possible to move things like scoring, creating and destroying grids and c <clipped message>
[2023-08-18 06:13:43] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| ycles, and managing clients over to a separate process, though? Anything non-essential to the continued function of the game, essentially.
[2023-08-18 06:13:44] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| ycles, and managing clients over to a separate process, though? Anything non-essential to the continued function of the game, essentially.
[2023-08-18 06:14:22] <monr0e> ugh, the bridge clips messages in an awful fashion. I have to fix that
[2023-08-18 06:14:23] <armagetron-bridge> 12irc:monr0e| ugh, the bridge clips messages in an awful fashion. I have to fix that
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[2023-08-18 13:45:28] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| bot: that is why I read the longer pieces in their native clients. That, and the chatter names getting assigned unreadable colors (in light mode), but then that's solvable by disabling color codes.
[2023-08-18 13:45:28] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| bot: that is why I read the longer pieces in their native clients. That, and the chatter names getting assigned unreadable colors (in light mode), but then that's solvable by disabling color codes.
[2023-08-18 13:46:31] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Sorry about the colours, someone else actually requested them. I might be able to adjust the palette at some point
[2023-08-18 13:46:32] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Sorry about the colours, someone else actually requested them. I might be able to adjust the palette at some point
[2023-08-18 13:47:49] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Regarding multithreading, it's not much use here, unless we go MMO 🙂 A single CPU can handle updates just fine. And we do have a bit of latency reduction; between the big simulation steps, we listen on any incoming messages, and if a control message arrives, we immediately simulate that one cycle (small time skews are tolerated) and send out updates.
[2023-08-18 13:47:49] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Regarding multithreading, it's not much use here, unless we go MMO 🙂 A single CPU can handle updates just fine. And we do have a bit of latency reduction; between the big simulation steps, we listen on any incoming messages, and if a control message arrives, we immediately simulate that one cycle (small time skews are tolerated) and send out updates.
[2023-08-18 13:47:59] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| @northernscrub no worries.
[2023-08-18 13:47:59] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| @northernscrub no worries.
[2023-08-18 13:50:12] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| For really implementing multithreading, this video describes a very cool approach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_2z7uWouuk
[2023-08-18 13:50:12] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| For really implementing multithreading, this video describes a very cool approach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_2z7uWouuk
[2023-08-18 13:50:12] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Basically, you divide the update into "read" and "write" phases. In a read phase, all objects are allowed to read whatever they want, all in parallel. In a write phase, all objects are allowed to modify themselves, but nothing else, and are not allowed to read any other object. That can also all happen in parallel.
[2023-08-18 13:50:13] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Basically, you divide the update into "read" and "write" phases. In a read phase, all objects are allowed to read whatever they want, all in parallel. In a write phase, all objects are allowed to modify themselves, but nothing else, and are not allowed to read any other object. That can also all happen in parallel.
[2023-08-18 13:50:55] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| One then just has to get the read data from the read phase into the write phase. C++11 makes that easy with lambdas and captures.
[2023-08-18 13:50:56] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| One then just has to get the read data from the read phase into the write phase. C++11 makes that easy with lambdas and captures.
[2023-08-18 13:53:00] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Another property of that, as opposed to our current approach, is that it makes updates order independent. If you process all objects in some order, each object already sees the changes that happened to the objects that came before it. In the parallel approach, they don't, they only see them in the next update.
[2023-08-18 13:53:00] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Another property of that, as opposed to our current approach, is that it makes updates order independent. If you process all objects in some order, each object already sees the changes that happened to the objects that came before it. In the parallel approach, they don't, they only see them in the next update.
[2023-08-18 13:53:27] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| And yeah, handling collisions properly gets a bit harder.
[2023-08-18 13:53:27] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| And yeah, handling collisions properly gets a bit harder.
[2023-08-18 15:43:56] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:olive| Does anyone want to stay in Amsterdam from the 12th of September until the 3rd of October (or shorter)?
[2023-08-18 15:43:57] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:olive| All I'm asking in return is for you to feed and pet my cat.
[2023-08-18 15:43:57] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:olive| Does anyone want to stay in Amsterdam from the 12th of September until the 3rd of October (or shorter)?
[2023-08-18 15:43:57] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:olive| All I'm asking in return is for you to feed and pet my cat.
[2023-08-18 16:23:48] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:olive| https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/209759416604426242/1142192143599931487/20220523_202800.jpg
[2023-08-18 16:23:48] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:olive| https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/209759416604426242/1142192143599931487/20220523_202800.jpg
[2023-08-18 16:25:35] <armagetronbridge> 09discord:chopeh_| UGHHHH i want to DXX
[2023-08-18 16:25:35] <armagetron-bridge> 09discord:chopeh_| UGHHHH i want to DXX
[2023-08-18 16:56:48] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:olive| come mi casa es su casa
[2023-08-18 16:56:48] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:olive| come mi casa es su casa
[2023-08-18 17:36:19] <-- monr0e has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[2023-08-18 18:36:54] <armagetron-bridge> 05discord:ppotter| are we also required to clean up after the cat
[2023-08-18 18:36:54] <armagetronbridge> 05discord:ppotter| are we also required to clean up after the cat
[2023-08-18 23:06:05] <Lucifer_arma> I'll move to amsterdam permanently. I'd love to get out of Texas, and possibly the US, forever
[2023-08-18 23:06:06] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I'll move to amsterdam permanently. I'd love to get out of Texas, and possibly the US, forever
[2023-08-18 23:07:09] <Lucifer_arma> For more parallelizing, we'd need a shared object structure. In this sort of system, every process that accesses the object can read/write to it at will, and each change gets queued and applied in turn by an object's handler, which can also be spread out over several cores/machines
[2023-08-18 23:07:10] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| For more parallelizing, we'd need a shared object structure. In this sort of system, every process that accesses the object can read/write to it at will, and each change gets queued and applied in turn by an object's handler, which can also be spread out over several cores/machines
[2023-08-18 23:07:59] <Lucifer_arma> There are libraries that already handle it, and this is a pretty mature subject area. We *should* be able to find something that'll do it. The fact that arma already breaks each timestep down into smaller ones would certainly help here.
[2023-08-18 23:08:00] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| There are libraries that already handle it, and this is a pretty mature subject area. We *should* be able to find something that'll do it. The fact that arma already breaks each timestep down into smaller ones would certainly help here.
[2023-08-18 23:08:51] <Lucifer_arma> The main issue here is that the overhead involved in keeping the shared objects up to date for each process that accesses them is, essentially, more latency.
[2023-08-18 23:08:51] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| The main issue here is that the overhead involved in keeping the shared objects up to date for each process that accesses them is, essentially, more latency.
[2023-08-18 23:10:16] <Lucifer_arma> Most objects on the grid can be processed simultaneously, it's only when you have cycles generating new walls within each other's pings that you run into issues. Of course, that's also when the game is most fun.
[2023-08-18 23:10:16] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Most objects on the grid can be processed simultaneously, it's only when you have cycles generating new walls within each other's pings that you run into issues. Of course, that's also when the game is most fun.
[2023-08-18 23:11:08] <Lucifer_arma> But if you take something like sumo, where you have 4-8 different zones, a different process could simulate the action for each zone, because there's no interaction between them until later in the round, at which time, you just need to smoothly move the shared game object from one process to the next for its primary simulation
[2023-08-18 23:11:09] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| But if you take something like sumo, where you have 4-8 different zones, a different process could simulate the action for each zone, because there's no interaction between them until later in the round, at which time, you just need to smoothly move the shared game object from one process to the next for its primary simulation
[2023-08-18 23:12:06] <Lucifer_arma> iirc, arma already does a bit of firehosing. As far as watching for duplicate messages, you don't need timestamps for that, you need a unique message id, which arma already does as well. That's a basic part of any network protocol. :)
[2023-08-18 23:12:07] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| iirc, arma already does a bit of firehosing. As far as watching for duplicate messages, you don't need timestamps for that, you need a unique message id, which arma already does as well. That's a basic part of any network protocol. :)
[2023-08-18 23:12:43] <Lucifer_arma> in my own little application, I resend packets when they haven't been acked within the average ping * 1.15 time, and I quietly discard packets that have already been received, going on the message ID.
[2023-08-18 23:12:43] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| in my own little application, I resend packets when they haven't been acked within the average ping * 1.15 time, and I quietly discard packets that have already been received, going on the message ID.
[2023-08-18 23:14:20] <Lucifer_arma> Selective compression could help, where you check the message size, and if it's less than, say 128 bytes, you simply don't compress it at all. I don't know how big arma messages really are, but I can easily imagine a situation where most messages sent are less than 256 bytes, and therefore don't really need to be compressed
[2023-08-18 23:14:20] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Selective compression could help, where you check the message size, and if it's less than, say 128 bytes, you simply don't compress it at all. I don't know how big arma messages really are, but I can easily imagine a situation where most messages sent are less than 256 bytes, and therefore don't really need to be compressed
[2023-08-18 23:14:38] <Lucifer_arma> until, that is, the total number of messages sent becomes so big that total bandwidth usage is an issue.
[2023-08-18 23:14:39] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| until, that is, the total number of messages sent becomes so big that total bandwidth usage is an issue.
[2023-08-18 23:15:37] <Lucifer_arma> You could split the difference here and compress a reference message of each type, and whenever you encode each message, compare its size to the reference compression size, and if the difference is less than 20%, don't bother compressing it
[2023-08-18 23:15:37] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| You could split the difference here and compress a reference message of each type, and whenever you encode each message, compare its size to the reference compression size, and if the difference is less than 20%, don't bother compressing it
[2023-08-18 23:15:58] <Lucifer_arma> there's even a branchless approach there that would make it so there's no performance impact
[2023-08-18 23:15:58] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| there's even a branchless approach there that would make it so there's no performance impact
[2023-08-18 23:16:15] <Lucifer_arma> But you always run into the question of whether or not it's worthwhile for the added overhead.
[2023-08-18 23:16:15] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| But you always run into the question of whether or not it's worthwhile for the added overhead.
[2023-08-18 23:17:22] <Lucifer_arma> anyway, Z-man, the pattern of having separate read and write periods is actually common in GUI programming, where the write period usually comes first, during event handling, and the read period is when you display everything
[2023-08-18 23:17:22] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| anyway, Z-man, the pattern of having separate read and write periods is actually common in GUI programming, where the write period usually comes first, during event handling, and the read period is when you display everything
[2023-08-18 23:17:37] <Lucifer_arma> That's how Qt pulls off the performance levels they manage
[2023-08-18 23:17:39] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| That's how Qt pulls off the performance levels they manage
[2023-08-18 23:18:56] <Lucifer_arma> I would imagine the way that would work in arma would be that first you simulate each object, then you do a quick loop looking for dirty objects and send the messages for those
[2023-08-18 23:18:57] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I would imagine the way that would work in arma would be that first you simulate each object, then you do a quick loop looking for dirty objects and send the messages for those
[2023-08-18 23:19:19] <Lucifer_arma> so the "display the gui" step would be replaced by "send over the network"
[2023-08-18 23:19:19] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so the "display the gui" step would be replaced by "send over the network"
[2023-08-18 23:20:30] <Lucifer_arma> of course, I don't know anything about arma's timing on that, but I *do* know I'm having issues with the stockanalyst that are being caused by reading/writing at the same times and not properly separating everything.
[2023-08-18 23:20:30] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| of course, I don't know anything about arma's timing on that, but I *do* know I'm having issues with the stockanalyst that are being caused by reading/writing at the same times and not properly separating everything.
[2023-08-18 23:23:16] <Lucifer_arma> @delinquent: I'm not suggesting that bare metal is always better than VPS, because of course it depends ultimately on what metal we're talking. A VPS on one of those 8ghz 16 core servers with a terabyte of ram will outperform my raspberry pis every day of the week
[2023-08-18 23:23:17] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| @delinquent: I'm not suggesting that bare metal is always better than VPS, because of course it depends ultimately on what metal we're talking. A VPS on one of those 8ghz 16 core servers with a terabyte of ram will outperform my raspberry pis every day of the week
[2023-08-18 23:24:29] <Lucifer_arma> But also, not all VPS's are created equally. I haven't really looked into them in detail, but I can see how the network emulation implementation for the virtualization software can make a big difference.
[2023-08-18 23:24:30] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| But also, not all VPS's are created equally. I haven't really looked into them in detail, but I can see how the network emulation implementation for the virtualization software can make a big difference.
[2023-08-18 23:25:40] <Lucifer_arma> I just had a conversation with a guy at a recovery meeting about the difference between unix domain sockets and IP sockets when communicating with a database, because he was talking about how the ODBC drivers (back in the day) were so talkative that he and his team found it better to send their data over the network with their own streamlined protocol, and then use a process on the same machine as the database server to do the
[2023-08-18 23:25:40] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I just had a conversation with a guy at a recovery meeting about the difference between unix domain sockets and IP sockets when communicating with a database, because he was talking about how the ODBC drivers (back in the day) were so talkative that he and his team found it better to send their data over the network with their own streamlined protocol, and then use a process on t <clipped message>
[2023-08-18 23:25:41] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| he same machine as the database server to do the
[2023-08-18 23:25:41] <Lucifer_arma> actual inserts
[2023-08-18 23:25:42] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| actual inserts
[2023-08-18 23:26:19] <Lucifer_arma> ofc, when you do that with mysql, you get a unix domain socket connection to the mysql server, which runs much *much* faster than an IP socket, even if you're on localhost
[2023-08-18 23:26:19] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| ofc, when you do that with mysql, you get a unix domain socket connection to the mysql server, which runs much *much* faster than an IP socket, even if you're on localhost
[2023-08-18 23:27:05] <Lucifer_arma> if your database driver is worth a shit, and I don't really know about python's mysql driver
[2023-08-18 23:27:06] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| if your database driver is worth a shit, and I don't really know about python's mysql driver
[2023-08-18 23:28:41] <Lucifer_arma> anyway, back to shared objects. When you queue up the changes to each object, you're inevitably going to send updates to an object that hasn't yet finished applying all the most recent changes. That's "fine", as long as the pending changes can be simulated on the client
[2023-08-18 23:28:42] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| anyway, back to shared objects. When you queue up the changes to each object, you're inevitably going to send updates to an object that hasn't yet finished applying all the most recent changes. That's "fine", as long as the pending changes can be simulated on the client
[2023-08-18 23:29:13] <Lucifer_arma> so, for example, making sure the location and timing of the turns is correct and sent in a timely fashion is fine, because the client can simulate the cycle driving in a straight line just fine
[2023-08-18 23:29:13] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so, for example, making sure the location and timing of the turns is correct and sent in a timely fashion is fine, because the client can simulate the cycle driving in a straight line just fine
[2023-08-18 23:30:12] <Lucifer_arma> so the shared object doesn't necessarily have to worry about the driving in a straight line part of the simulation, because the process that's managing the turn commands is doing that and placing the turns accordingly
[2023-08-18 23:30:12] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so the shared object doesn't necessarily have to worry about the driving in a straight line part of the simulation, because the process that's managing the turn commands is doing that and placing the turns accordingly
[2023-08-18 23:30:40] <Lucifer_arma> and then we get into the cross platform issues. I don't really know how Windows handles IPC, but in posix-land, it's through pipes
[2023-08-18 23:30:40] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| and then we get into the cross platform issues. I don't really know how Windows handles IPC, but in posix-land, it's through pipes
[2023-08-18 23:31:43] <Lucifer_arma> so you'd have a full-duplex pipe connecting each process, and each process would have to poll each pipe, pull out messages written in Yet Another Protocol to update each object, and write to the pipe in that same protocol
[2023-08-18 23:31:43] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so you'd have a full-duplex pipe connecting each process, and each process would have to poll each pipe, pull out messages written in Yet Another Protocol to update each object, and write to the pipe in that same protocol
[2023-08-18 23:33:17] <Lucifer_arma> how does windows do it? I know they nabbed berkeley sockets back in the day for the IP stack, but I don't know how much of that still remains, and I know their IPC methods have changed a lot over the years, starting with DDS (or something like that) in dos, then activex, and I don't know what now
[2023-08-18 23:33:18] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| how does windows do it? I know they nabbed berkeley sockets back in the day for the IP stack, but I don't know how much of that still remains, and I know their IPC methods have changed a lot over the years, starting with DDS (or something like that) in dos, then activex, and I don't know what now
[2023-08-18 23:34:36] <Lucifer_arma> anyway, so the process that simulated, say, the NE corner of the grid wouldn't even both writing to any objects that aren't in the bounds of the grid it's simulating, but it would read those objects
[2023-08-18 23:34:37] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| anyway, so the process that simulated, say, the NE corner of the grid wouldn't even both writing to any objects that aren't in the bounds of the grid it's simulating, but it would read those objects
[2023-08-18 23:35:14] <Lucifer_arma> That way, when one of them crosses the boundary, it'll take over simulating it. As long as these processes are on the same machine, they use the same clock, so the timestamps are trustworthy
[2023-08-18 23:35:14] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| That way, when one of them crosses the boundary, it'll take over simulating it. As long as these processes are on the same machine, they use the same clock, so the timestamps are trustworthy
[2023-08-18 23:36:15] <Lucifer_arma> the new linux scheduler is supposed to make exactly this use case both more reliable and higher performance overall, so that's something to look forward to :)
[2023-08-18 23:36:15] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| the new linux scheduler is supposed to make exactly this use case both more reliable and higher performance overall, so that's something to look forward to :)
[2023-08-18 23:36:53] <Lucifer_arma> but to get the most out of it, we'd need each process to be able to store as much of the simulation as possible in the core's cache, and that's going to be some downright nasty code to write, hence the question "Is it even worth it?"
[2023-08-18 23:36:53] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but to get the most out of it, we'd need each process to be able to store as much of the simulation as possible in the core's cache, and that's going to be some downright nasty code to write, hence the question "Is it even worth it?"
[2023-08-18 23:37:46] <Lucifer_arma> it might be better to adopt branchless programming as widely as possible, but the last time I checked, z-man was already a skilled branchless programmer :)
[2023-08-18 23:37:46] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it might be better to adopt branchless programming as widely as possible, but the last time I checked, z-man was already a skilled branchless programmer :)
[2023-08-18 23:38:57] <Lucifer_arma> since the last time I even looked into network objects in arma was probably a decade ago, based on what I "know" and what we've talked about, it looks to me like having separate read/write cycles is the most viable option here
[2023-08-18 23:38:57] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| since the last time I even looked into network objects in arma was probably a decade ago, based on what I "know" and what we've talked about, it looks to me like having separate read/write cycles is the most viable option here
[2023-08-18 23:39:21] <Lucifer_arma> I may be biased, though, because I'm hitting my head against that wall right now in a different project
[2023-08-18 23:39:22] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I may be biased, though, because I'm hitting my head against that wall right now in a different project
[2023-08-18 23:44:50] <Lucifer_arma> and now that I'm seeing shades of AI in the whole problem, I'm wondering if it would be better to use the graphics card for simulating on the server, where graphics aren't needed
[2023-08-18 23:44:50] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| and now that I'm seeing shades of AI in the whole problem, I'm wondering if it would be better to use the graphics card for simulating on the server, where graphics aren't needed
[2023-08-18 23:45:54] <Lucifer_arma> AI is already doing that, and we're starting to get AI-acceleration cards/chipsets, so it's probably worth looking at that for a parallelization approach rather than multiprocessing
[2023-08-18 23:45:54] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| AI is already doing that, and we're starting to get AI-acceleration cards/chipsets, so it's probably worth looking at that for a parallelization approach rather than multiprocessing
[2023-08-18 23:46:37] <Lucifer_arma> it won't help my raspberry pi server, heh, but what kind of fool would run a game server on a raspberry pi? (Besides me, I'd do it all day)
[2023-08-18 23:46:37] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it won't help my raspberry pi server, heh, but what kind of fool would run a game server on a raspberry pi? (Besides me, I'd do it all day)
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[2023-08-19 00:02:36] <Lucifer_arma> some quick research on the subject tells me that OpenCL is the cross-platform approach here, and that the simulation has to be possible with linear algebra. Basically, the more of it that can be done with matrixes, the more benefit there is to be had, but there's a minimum amount that has to be possible or else there's no benefit and a lot of cost
[2023-08-19 00:02:36] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| some quick research on the subject tells me that OpenCL is the cross-platform approach here, and that the simulation has to be possible with linear algebra. Basically, the more of it that can be done with matrixes, the more benefit there is to be had, but there's a minimum amount that has to be possible or else there's no benefit and a lot of cost
[2023-08-19 00:03:20] <Lucifer_arma> so the question is, how much can latency be reduced by making the simulation itself faster? Is it 5%, or 25%?
[2023-08-19 00:03:20] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so the question is, how much can latency be reduced by making the simulation itself faster? Is it 5%, or 25%?
[2023-08-19 00:04:04] <Lucifer_arma> since I don't have any linear algebra skills, let alone the ability to simulate light cycles with it, this is where I have to bug off :)
[2023-08-19 00:04:04] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| since I don't have any linear algebra skills, let alone the ability to simulate light cycles with it, this is where I have to bug off :)
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[2023-08-19 03:37:19] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:olive| @ppotter just scoop the pop once a day
[2023-08-19 03:37:20] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:olive| @ppotter just scoop the pop once a day
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[2023-08-19 08:19:14] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Actually would too. My passport expired last year and it's a pisstake to get it renewed rn
[2023-08-19 08:19:14] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Actually would too. My passport expired last year and it's a pisstake to get it renewed rn
[2023-08-19 09:50:58] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:olive| what did they do?
[2023-08-19 09:50:58] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:olive| what did they do?
[2023-08-19 09:51:33] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:olive| is there no fast track to squeeze you out? i'll cover it
[2023-08-19 09:51:34] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:olive| is there no fast track to squeeze you out? i'll cover it
[2023-08-19 09:53:47] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Because it's been so long, and because I have some other ID issues and no family to verify my identity, I have to go through a rather long interviewing and vetting process to ensure I actually *am* Mr Doll, and not Mr Reeves pretending to be Mr Doll
[2023-08-19 09:53:48] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Because it's been so long, and because I have some other ID issues and no family to verify my identity, I have to go through a rather long interviewing and vetting process to ensure I actually *am* Mr Doll, and not Mr Reeves pretending to be Mr Doll
[2023-08-19 09:59:04] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:olive| don't you have a social security number or something that is tied to your identity
[2023-08-19 09:59:04] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:olive| don't you have a social security number or something that is tied to your identity
[2023-08-19 10:00:55] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:olive| there must be some kind of paper trail leading back to your birth, not sure how it works in England - are they that overly bureaucratic?
[2023-08-19 10:00:57] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:olive| there must be some kind of paper trail leading back to your birth, not sure how it works in England - are they that overly bureaucratic?
[2023-08-19 10:03:21] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| In the UK, your NI number isn't proof of identity
[2023-08-19 10:03:21] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| In the UK, your NI number isn't proof of identity
[2023-08-19 10:04:27] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| does a drivers license work if you have one?
[2023-08-19 10:04:28] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| does a drivers license work if you have one?
[2023-08-19 10:04:35] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| The problem stems from being on my mother's passport when I was younger. Since hers was a German passport, it makes life very difficult if I let it lapse. It's a pain, but there it is
[2023-08-19 10:04:36] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| The problem stems from being on my mother's passport when I was younger. Since hers was a German passport, it makes life very difficult if I let it lapse. It's a pain, but there it is
[2023-08-19 10:05:01] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| that's in spite of the fact that I never *had* german citizenship too, I never understood how she got aroudn that
[2023-08-19 10:05:02] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| that's in spite of the fact that I never *had* german citizenship too, I never understood how she got aroudn that
[2023-08-19 10:10:14] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > arma already does a bit of firehosing
[2023-08-19 10:10:14] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > arma already does a bit of firehosing
[2023-08-19 10:10:15] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Hm. I think I was more suggesting that every packet be retransmitted multiple times regardless of it's ACK status. With the bandwidth behind the modern internet, and the possibility of dscp values now in play, that alone migh tbe enough to mitigate the worst of the issues we've been facing.
[2023-08-19 10:10:15] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Hm. I think I was more suggesting that every packet be retransmitted multiple times regardless of it's ACK status. With the bandwidth behind the modern internet, and the possibility of dscp values now in play, that alone migh tbe enough to mitigate the worst of the issues we've been facing.
[2023-08-19 10:10:16] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Speaking of packet stuff, I've been setting MAX_IN_RATE and MAX_OUT_RATE on my machines, either to 64 or 128, I forget which. My primary concern behind this was avoidance of UDP fragmentation, but I'm also aware that I was basing this off a very old interpretation of where and when fragmentation was likely to occur. At any rate, in theory this should restrict packet size (althoug <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:17] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Speaking of packet stuff, I've been setting MAX_IN_RATE and MAX_OUT_RATE on my machines, either to 64 or 128, I forget which. My primary concern behind this was avoidance of UDP fragmentation, but I'm also aware that I was basing this off a very old interpretation of where and when fragmentation was likely to occur. At any rate, in theory this should restrict packet size (althoug <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:17] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| h I question whether it might actually force fragmentation instead...)
[2023-08-19 10:10:18] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| h I question whether it might actually force fragmentation instead...)
[2023-08-19 10:10:18] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| --- Scratch that last, I just learned that 1500b is the default, with 1397b being usable. I feel very uneducated rn. @Deso I was wrong about *all* of that lmao
[2023-08-19 10:10:19] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| --- Scratch that last, I just learned that 1500b is the default, with 1397b being usable. I feel very uneducated rn. @Deso I was wrong about *all* of that lmao
[2023-08-19 10:10:20] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| --- Even worse, apparently neither max-in nor max-out configs actually *do* anything. @Z-Man any chance we can look at this at the same time as DSCP stuff? At the moment, connection speeds are entirely mandated by whether or not the user has selected dialup, isdn, or dsl in their initial setup, and the limit of that in/out rate is 64/16. I've manually set that to 1000 in my user. <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:21] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| --- Even worse, apparently neither max-in nor max-out configs actually *do* anything. @Z-Man any chance we can look at this at the same time as DSCP stuff? At the moment, connection speeds are entirely mandated by whether or not the user has selected dialup, isdn, or dsl in their initial setup, and the limit of that in/out rate is 64/16. I've manually set that to 1000 in my user. <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:21] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| cfg, but either enabling the use of MAX_IN_RATE and MAX_OUT_RATE or even just an updated bandwidth limit would be helpful.
[2023-08-19 10:10:22] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| cfg, but either enabling the use of MAX_IN_RATE and MAX_OUT_RATE or even just an updated bandwidth limit would be helpful.
[2023-08-19 10:10:22] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > I'm not suggesting that bare metal...
[2023-08-19 10:10:23] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > I'm not suggesting that bare metal...
[2023-08-19 10:10:24] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| No, I know. What I was really getting at is that armagetron has such a low overhead that performance really isn't down to the underlying infrastructure anymore, at least the immediate infrastructure. I think we really just need to accept that the landscape of the internet has significantly changed, with the advent of streaming, video-conferencing, p2p distribution (which isn't ju <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:24] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| No, I know. What I was really getting at is that armagetron has such a low overhead that performance really isn't down to the underlying infrastructure anymore, at least the immediate infrastructure. I think we really just need to accept that the landscape of the internet has significantly changed, with the advent of streaming, video-conferencing, p2p distribution (which isn't ju <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:25] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| st torrents anymore - a lot of game installers use this approach), even the size of regular HTTP downloads have gotten significantly higher. Core internet infrastructure has also improved, yes, but with so much traffic to schedule it is hardly surprising that we are seeing an increase in latency or loss induced incidents. That's why I put forth the idea of priority in the first p <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:26] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| st torrents anymore - a lot of game installers use this approach), even the size of regular HTTP downloads have gotten significantly higher. Core internet infrastructure has also improved, yes, but with so much traffic to schedule it is hardly surprising that we are seeing an increase in latency or loss induced incidents. That's why I put forth the idea of priority in the first p <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:26] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| lace - in fact, this is something that most games incorporate now, it's no longer limited to the likes of RTC.
[2023-08-19 10:10:27] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| lace - in fact, this is something that most games incorporate now, it's no longer limited to the likes of RTC.
[2023-08-19 10:10:28] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| However, there *is* a networking and thread-timing overhead with a shared-resource implementation. I can actually demonstrate this in my own DC, although other solutions have a greater impact. Hypervisors are probably the worst offenders, since they add an additional hosting layer between the runtime and the instruction execution - and worse is that there is always the vague poss <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:28] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| However, there *is* a networking and thread-timing overhead with a shared-resource implementation. I can actually demonstrate this in my own DC, although other solutions have a greater impact. Hypervisors are probably the worst offenders, since they add an additional hosting layer between the runtime and the instruction execution - and worse is that there is always the vague poss <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:29] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| ibility (although I think protections are in place these days) of thread mismatching, where an expected instruction set is launched on a thread other than the one it was expecting. That's only really an issue in super-multi-threaded applications, like ones designed to run on eight or more cores, where there's also a thread controller. Those sorts of applications are admittedly ra <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:30] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| ibility (although I think protections are in place these days) of thread mismatching, where an expected instruction set is launched on a thread other than the one it was expecting. That's only really an issue in super-multi-threaded applications, like ones designed to run on eight or more cores, where there's also a thread controller. Those sorts of applications are admittedly ra <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:30] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| re, though. Regardless, adding the overhead is actually noticeable in armagetron - hence my decision to use bare metal here in the UK, and go for a non-cyclical provider in the US.
[2023-08-19 10:10:31] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| re, though. Regardless, adding the overhead is actually noticeable in armagetron - hence my decision to use bare metal here in the UK, and go for a non-cyclical provider in the US.
[2023-08-19 10:10:31] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > async, "Is it even worth it"
[2023-08-19 10:10:32] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > async, "Is it even worth it"
[2023-08-19 10:10:33] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| I'd have to guess no, there's not really any benefit given the processing power of a modern machine. Given that we can and do run several servers on one machine, also, I would argue that taking this route could potentially negatively impact performance too. That is, of course, operating on the assumption that the different running processes are given specific thread assignments a <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:34] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| I'd have to guess no, there's not really any benefit given the processing power of a modern machine. Given that we can and do run several servers on one machine, also, I would argue that taking this route could potentially negatively impact performance too. That is, of course, operating on the assumption that the different running processes are given specific thread assignments a <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:34] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| nd that armagetron operates as one, single, continuous task. I have to confess, this is getting into territory I can only vaguely speculate on and I'm doing a *lot* of guesswork.
[2023-08-19 10:10:35] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| nd that armagetron operates as one, single, continuous task. I have to confess, this is getting into territory I can only vaguely speculate on and I'm doing a *lot* of guesswork.
[2023-08-19 10:10:35] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > AI
[2023-08-19 10:10:36] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > AI
[2023-08-19 10:10:37] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| crow_of_judgement.png
[2023-08-19 10:10:37] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| crow_of_judgement.png
[2023-08-19 10:10:38] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Ok, conceivably. That said, acceleration has been in and out of favour many times over the years. I question whether it's worth the effort to try and incorporate it - especially when the cost of hosting would jump considerably. At present, I pay abotu forty quid a month for the US host. If I added AI provision, that cost would quadruple - even if I only wanted the hardware. Even <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:39] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Ok, conceivably. That said, acceleration has been in and out of favour many times over the years. I question whether it's worth the effort to try and incorporate it - especially when the cost of hosting would jump considerably. At present, I pay abotu forty quid a month for the US host. If I added AI provision, that cost would quadruple - even if I only wanted the hardware. Even <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:39] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| adding a graphics card to a vps is somewhat cost-prohibitive - and now I'm going to be managing a whole heap of other servers for another community member who is bugging out for a bit, that cost is *ouch*. It might be better instead to focus on better utilisation of modern CPU capabilities - they're certainly leaps and bounds ahead of what we had twenty years ago. With ARM coming <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:40] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| adding a graphics card to a vps is somewhat cost-prohibitive - and now I'm going to be managing a whole heap of other servers for another community member who is bugging out for a bit, that cost is *ouch*. It might be better instead to focus on better utilisation of modern CPU capabilities - they're certainly leaps and bounds ahead of what we had twenty years ago. With ARM coming <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 10:10:41] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| into play too, which is what all my hosts run on, there's even more scope for improvement.
[2023-08-19 10:10:41] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| into play too, which is what all my hosts run on, there's even more scope for improvement.
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[2023-08-19 11:16:00] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:olive| haha, i'll watch your cat instead
[2023-08-19 11:16:00] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:olive| haha, i'll watch your cat instead
[2023-08-19 11:17:04] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:olive| I would ask my younger brother but I'm sure he will give Mila enough attention and play games instead, more than me
[2023-08-19 11:17:05] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:olive| I would ask my younger brother but I'm sure he will give Mila enough attention and play games instead, more than me
[2023-08-19 11:17:19] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:olive| she's a sensitive cat, I'd rather put faith in tronners
[2023-08-19 11:17:20] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:olive| she's a sensitive cat, I'd rather put faith in tronners
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[2023-08-19 16:27:29] <armagetronbridge> 15discord:Nélg| @northernscrub
[2023-08-19 16:27:30] <armagetron-bridge> 15discord:Nélg| @northernscrub
[2023-08-19 16:27:30] <armagetron-bridge> 15discord:Nélg| > Even worse, apparently neither max-in nor max-out configs actually do anything.
[2023-08-19 16:27:30] <armagetronbridge> 15discord:Nélg| > Even worse, apparently neither max-in nor max-out configs actually do anything.
[2023-08-19 16:27:31] <armagetron-bridge> 15discord:Nélg| max in rate and max out rate definitely does *something*. Try setting `MAX_OUT_RATE` to, say, 1, on a server, and then joining it. You'll notice you'll receive the settings ("CYCLE_ACCEL changed from 10 to 20 on server order") at a much slower rate. Or `MAX_IN_RATE` to 1 on a client. Same effect.
[2023-08-19 16:27:31] <armagetronbridge> 15discord:Nélg| max in rate and max out rate definitely does *something*. Try setting `MAX_OUT_RATE` to, say, 1, on a server, and then joining it. You'll notice you'll receive the settings ("CYCLE_ACCEL changed from 10 to 20 on server order") at a much slower rate. Or `MAX_IN_RATE` to 1 on a client. Same effect.
[2023-08-19 16:28:03] <armagetronbridge> 15discord:Nélg| and that extends to receiving gameplay objects once joining, too
[2023-08-19 16:28:03] <armagetron-bridge> 15discord:Nélg| and that extends to receiving gameplay objects once joining, too
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[2023-08-19 22:36:23] <Lucifer_arma> I definitely think marking the packets high priority (or whatever it is, I know we talked about it back in the day when it was first appearing, and iirc the decision was to wait and see what happened, because we're idealogically opposed to preferential treatment for network traffic, but the world is what it is, and preferential treatment happens, we deserve it :) )
[2023-08-19 22:36:23] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I definitely think marking the packets high priority (or whatever it is, I know we talked about it back in the day when it was first appearing, and iirc the decision was to wait and see what happened, because we're idealogically opposed to preferential treatment for network traffic, but the world is what it is, and preferential treatment happens, we deserve it :) )
[2023-08-19 22:36:34] <Lucifer_arma> is the Right Thing To Do now.
[2023-08-19 22:36:35] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| is the Right Thing To Do now.
[2023-08-19 22:37:06] <Lucifer_arma> I'm not sure what you mean by fragmentation. I'm seeing it as two possible situations:
[2023-08-19 22:37:06] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I'm not sure what you mean by fragmentation. I'm seeing it as two possible situations:
[2023-08-19 22:37:41] <Lucifer_arma> 1) Arma deliberately breaks each message into multiple packets. The other side needs all the different packets to reassemble the message, and if it's missing one, it can't.
[2023-08-19 22:37:42] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| 1) Arma deliberately breaks each message into multiple packets. The other side needs all the different packets to reassemble the message, and if it's missing one, it can't.
[2023-08-19 22:39:14] <Lucifer_arma> 2) Where I was trying to go, at levels lower than sockets themselves, a UDP message can get broken up at the hardware layer. Say a packet-switching device, or a wifi router that's receiving signals from more than one device at a time. In this case, each device waits until it's received the whole datagram before it passes it on, but if something happens where some of the datagram is lost, the entire thing is discarded
[2023-08-19 22:39:15] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| 2) Where I was trying to go, at levels lower than sockets themselves, a UDP message can get broken up at the hardware layer. Say a packet-switching device, or a wifi router that's receiving signals from more than one device at a time. In this case, each device waits until it's received the whole datagram before it passes it on, but if something happens where some of the datagr <clipped message>
[2023-08-19 22:39:16] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| am is lost, the entire thing is discarded
[2023-08-19 22:40:07] <Lucifer_arma> Each of these possibilities has opposite solutions. For 1), make the datagrams bigger, and for 2) make them smaller. But this also gets at what I was talking about about infrastructure and the importance of wired connections.
[2023-08-19 22:40:07] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Each of these possibilities has opposite solutions. For 1), make the datagrams bigger, and for 2) make them smaller. But this also gets at what I was talking about about infrastructure and the importance of wired connections.
[2023-08-19 22:40:45] <Lucifer_arma> Wifi always has more packet loss, no matter how fast it is. It's the nature of the thing. (Yes, I realize that physically, there's not a lot of difference between wireless and wired, just the medium, but let's ignore that)
[2023-08-19 22:40:46] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Wifi always has more packet loss, no matter how fast it is. It's the nature of the thing. (Yes, I realize that physically, there's not a lot of difference between wireless and wired, just the medium, but let's ignore that)
[2023-08-19 22:42:00] <Lucifer_arma> The main differences between the various wifi versions involve error correcting and speed, so 802.11N, for example, besides being gigabit, also includes superior error correcting algorithms, so there's less packet loss
[2023-08-19 22:42:00] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| The main differences between the various wifi versions involve error correcting and speed, so 802.11N, for example, besides being gigabit, also includes superior error correcting algorithms, so there's less packet loss
[2023-08-19 22:42:48] <Lucifer_arma> Cable internet is shared with your neighborhood, so the protocol has to allow traffic flowing from multiple computers over the same shared physical cable. This is why you notice it behaving in little spurts, I believe.
[2023-08-19 22:42:49] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Cable internet is shared with your neighborhood, so the protocol has to allow traffic flowing from multiple computers over the same shared physical cable. This is why you notice it behaving in little spurts, I believe.
[2023-08-19 22:43:34] <Lucifer_arma> Everything below the socket layer, we have no control over in source code, obviously, but individuals do. That's why locating your server in a datacenter, even on a VPS, is probably better than hosting it off your bare metal cable internet.
[2023-08-19 22:43:35] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Everything below the socket layer, we have no control over in source code, obviously, but individuals do. That's why locating your server in a datacenter, even on a VPS, is probably better than hosting it off your bare metal cable internet.
[2023-08-19 22:44:01] <Lucifer_arma> For players, well, I want to play well over wifi, period.
[2023-08-19 22:44:01] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| For players, well, I want to play well over wifi, period.
[2023-08-19 22:44:52] <Lucifer_arma> Encryption, especially over wifi, also adds some latency. I think my last attempt to measure it, which wasn't terribly scientific, came in around 10-15ms. That's by looking at a difference in ping, as reported by arma, but on a cable internet connection, so ymmv
[2023-08-19 22:44:53] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Encryption, especially over wifi, also adds some latency. I think my last attempt to measure it, which wasn't terribly scientific, came in around 10-15ms. That's by looking at a difference in ping, as reported by arma, but on a cable internet connection, so ymmv
[2023-08-19 22:45:26] <Lucifer_arma> Point being there was a noticeable difference in ping, but once you hit pings about 70 or so, that difference isn't noticeable ingame.
[2023-08-19 22:45:26] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Point being there was a noticeable difference in ping, but once you hit pings about 70 or so, that difference isn't noticeable ingame.
[2023-08-19 22:46:20] <Lucifer_arma> I'm generally opposed to my AI-acceleration idea, actually. :) I think it's be neat technology to have, you know, a game simulation that uses it and all, but I can't imagine it actually benefitting arma enough to be worth the effort.
[2023-08-19 22:46:20] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I'm generally opposed to my AI-acceleration idea, actually. :) I think it's be neat technology to have, you know, a game simulation that uses it and all, but I can't imagine it actually benefitting arma enough to be worth the effort.
[2023-08-19 22:47:03] <Lucifer_arma> So if some google summer of code monkey wanted to do it, and there was some benefit, and it didn't result in a maintenance nightmare, I could be persuaded. Other than that, yeah, you're right about every reason you gave for not doing it, and there's probably even more beyond that
[2023-08-19 22:47:04] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| So if some google summer of code monkey wanted to do it, and there was some benefit, and it didn't result in a maintenance nightmare, I could be persuaded. Other than that, yeah, you're right about every reason you gave for not doing it, and there's probably even more beyond that
[2023-08-19 22:47:12] <Lucifer_arma> Does google still do SoC?
[2023-08-19 22:47:13] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Does google still do SoC?
[2023-08-19 22:50:38] <Lucifer_arma> As for multiprocessing, I really think that for the sizes of the playing fields and numbers of players we're seeing right now, it's not worth it. In the past, before multicore computers were common, but also when our player base was the biggest (I admit I haven't logged in in a few years though), it would have been worth it for some game types, like racing and sumo.
[2023-08-19 22:50:38] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| As for multiprocessing, I really think that for the sizes of the playing fields and numbers of players we're seeing right now, it's not worth it. In the past, before multicore computers were common, but also when our player base was the biggest (I admit I haven't logged in in a few years though), it would have been worth it for some game types, like racing and sumo.
[2023-08-19 22:51:36] <Lucifer_arma> And, of course, if we ever get to a point where we have multiple grids in the same server, like different levels, or significant separation between them, or we simply have a huge grid with lots of players, then I think going multiprocessing is the thing to do
[2023-08-19 22:51:36] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| And, of course, if we ever get to a point where we have multiple grids in the same server, like different levels, or significant separation between them, or we simply have a huge grid with lots of players, then I think going multiprocessing is the thing to do
[2023-08-19 22:53:03] <Lucifer_arma> I've always been in favor of the most important realtime packets being transmitted like 3 times right away. I vaguely remember z-man either already doing that, or talking about adding it, but that conversation was so long ago that I only remember that it happened, nothing else from it
[2023-08-19 22:53:03] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I've always been in favor of the most important realtime packets being transmitted like 3 times right away. I vaguely remember z-man either already doing that, or talking about adding it, but that conversation was so long ago that I only remember that it happened, nothing else from it
[2023-08-19 22:54:17] <Lucifer_arma> I'm also in favor of rearranging the conversation. Instead of running multiple server processes, rearrange the server so that one server manages several game grids. There's a lot of reasons we can't do that right now, but in my perfect world, that's what we'd do
[2023-08-19 22:54:17] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I'm also in favor of rearranging the conversation. Instead of running multiple server processes, rearrange the server so that one server manages several game grids. There's a lot of reasons we can't do that right now, but in my perfect world, that's what we'd do
[2023-08-19 22:54:47] <Lucifer_arma> That server would fork a new process for each new game grid when players join it, and it would allow a popular server to start a new game grid instead of just being full and disallowing new players to join
[2023-08-19 22:54:47] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| That server would fork a new process for each new game grid when players join it, and it would allow a popular server to start a new game grid instead of just being full and disallowing new players to join
[2023-08-19 22:56:14] <Lucifer_arma> ofc, that would stress the network layer quite a bit, but I can also see a situation where it's superior to hosting multiple servers on one machine. A network layer optimized for that kind of use should outperform four separate instances of a network layer optimized for a single game instance.
[2023-08-19 22:56:14] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| ofc, that would stress the network layer quite a bit, but I can also see a situation where it's superior to hosting multiple servers on one machine. A network layer optimized for that kind of use should outperform four separate instances of a network layer optimized for a single game instance.
[2023-08-19 22:56:55] <Lucifer_arma> on a side note, I'm 60 days sober today :)
[2023-08-19 22:56:55] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| on a side note, I'm 60 days sober today :)
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[2023-08-20 08:25:37] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:gog| How do you make a bot? Like what files do you edit? Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask!
[2023-08-20 08:25:37] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:gog| How do you make a bot? Like what files do you edit? Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask!
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[2023-08-20 10:41:52] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| A bot for tron? The values that correspond to how the default armagetron bot behaves are in `%programdir%/config/aiplayers.cfg`, `/etc/games/armagetronad/aiplayers.cfg`, or `<installdir>/servers/<servername>/config/aiplayers.cfg`, depending on whether you have a Windows client, Linux client, or server installation.
[2023-08-20 10:41:52] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| A bot for tron? The values that correspond to how the default armagetron bot behaves are in `%programdir%/config/aiplayers.cfg`, `/etc/games/armagetronad/aiplayers.cfg`, or `<installdir>/servers/<servername>/config/aiplayers.cfg`, depending on whether you have a Windows client, Linux client, or server installation.
[2023-08-20 10:57:48] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > fragmentation
[2023-08-20 10:57:48] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > fragmentation
[2023-08-20 10:57:48] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| I honestly thought I was seeing the result of packet fragmentation, but it turns out I was wrong abotu how MTU is approached. I was assuming that fragmentation occurred when throughput was low enough to make transporting larger unit sizes infeasible, but in actual fact it only occurs when the unit exceeds the MTU size of the infrastructure transporting it. The majority of the int <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 10:57:49] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| I honestly thought I was seeing the result of packet fragmentation, but it turns out I was wrong abotu how MTU is approached. I was assuming that fragmentation occurred when throughput was low enough to make transporting larger unit sizes infeasible, but in actual fact it only occurs when the unit exceeds the MTU size of the infrastructure transporting it. The majority of the int <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 10:57:49] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| ernet appears to have adopted the MTU size of PPPoE specifications, being 1492 (or was it 1472? I forget, it's actually 1500 but there's some overhead for ipsec and other stuff), so the max-in/out rates actually don't matter so much. I have, though, set them to 1k on my machines, since that's 1k *per client*. Also, apparently using MAX_IN_RATE and MAX_OUT_RATE in the server confi <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 10:57:50] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| ernet appears to have adopted the MTU size of PPPoE specifications, being 1492 (or was it 1472? I forget, it's actually 1500 but there's some overhead for ipsec and other stuff), so the max-in/out rates actually don't matter so much. I have, though, set them to 1k on my machines, since that's 1k *per client*. Also, apparently using MAX_IN_RATE and MAX_OUT_RATE in the server confi <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 10:57:51] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| g actually affects the clients that connect to that server, rather than the server itself - so... iunno? We'll see.
[2023-08-20 10:57:51] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| g actually affects the clients that connect to that server, rather than the server itself - so... iunno? We'll see.
[2023-08-20 10:57:52] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| uMenuItemInt in_rate (&net_menu,"$network_opts_inrate_text", "$network_opts_inrate_help", sn_maxRateIn,3,64);
[2023-08-20 10:57:52] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| uMenuItemInt in_rate (&net_menu,"$network_opts_inrate_text", "$network_opts_inrate_help", sn_maxRateIn,3,64);
[2023-08-20 10:57:53] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent|
[2023-08-20 10:57:54] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent|
[2023-08-20 10:57:55] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Funnily enough I don't remember seeing a network selection option in the menu. I've transported my tron config from machin to machine for a good decade or so now.
[2023-08-20 10:57:55] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Funnily enough I don't remember seeing a network selection option in the menu. I've transported my tron config from machin to machine for a good decade or so now.
[2023-08-20 10:57:58] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > wifi
[2023-08-20 10:57:59] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > wifi
[2023-08-20 10:57:59] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Fat chance. Wireless is congested as fuck, there's a reason we don't really offer much beyond "get ethernet" to someone experiencing issues over wifi.
[2023-08-20 10:57:59] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Fat chance. Wireless is congested as fuck, there's a reason we don't really offer much beyond "get ethernet" to someone experiencing issues over wifi.
[2023-08-20 10:58:05] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > SoC
[2023-08-20 10:58:05] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > SoC
[2023-08-20 10:58:05] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Yep, https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/
[2023-08-20 10:58:06] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Yep, https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/
[2023-08-20 10:58:06] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| But it's Google. You really wanna poke THAT bear? They're pretty evil as big corps go.
[2023-08-20 10:58:07] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| But it's Google. You really wanna poke THAT bear? They're pretty evil as big corps go.
[2023-08-20 10:58:12] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| > several game grids
[2023-08-20 10:58:12] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| > several game grids
[2023-08-20 10:58:12] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| So multiple servers under one running process? Might be worth looking into. I'd strongly suggest making it a toggleable option, though - so that we can still do the traditional multi-server configuration with screen. Prolly need to look at making sure it's all memory safe too, it would be rather unfortunate if the deletion of one grid could result in the deletion of a different grid.
[2023-08-20 10:58:13] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| So multiple servers under one running process? Might be worth looking into. I'd strongly suggest making it a toggleable option, though - so that we can still do the traditional multi-server configuration with screen. Prolly need to look at making sure it's all memory safe too, it would be rather unfortunate if the deletion of one grid could result in the deletion of a different grid.
[2023-08-20 11:55:18] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:gog| i was thinking of the bots some players use on classic submarine that can tunnel really well
[2023-08-20 11:55:18] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:gog| i was thinking of the bots some players use on classic submarine that can tunnel really well
[2023-08-20 11:55:38] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:gog| they turn on their chatbot and then that chatbot is much harder to kill than a regular chatbot
[2023-08-20 11:55:39] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:gog| they turn on their chatbot and then that chatbot is much harder to kill than a regular chatbot
[2023-08-20 11:56:02] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:gog| like the one lovebug uses
[2023-08-20 11:56:02] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:gog| like the one lovebug uses
[2023-08-20 11:57:24] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Oh, for that all you need do is adjust the bot's IQ - the default is 50, so bump it up a bit. Add `AI_IQ 75` to your server config. Theoretically that number is unlimited, although I think it's ultimately limited by the total possible size of a 32bit integer (or maybe 16bit? Iunno)
[2023-08-20 11:57:24] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Oh, for that all you need do is adjust the bot's IQ - the default is 50, so bump it up a bit. Add `AI_IQ 75` to your server config. Theoretically that number is unlimited, although I think it's ultimately limited by the total possible size of a 32bit integer (or maybe 16bit? Iunno)
[2023-08-20 11:58:28] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| You can also enable a sort of "learning" feature, whereby the sserver will adjust your bot IQ levels each round - for that, use `AUTO_IQ 1` - set it to 0 to turn it off
[2023-08-20 11:58:28] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| You can also enable a sort of "learning" feature, whereby the sserver will adjust your bot IQ levels each round - for that, use `AUTO_IQ 1` - set it to 0 to turn it off
[2023-08-20 11:59:02] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:gog| ah i see, thanks a lot
[2023-08-20 11:59:03] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:gog| ah i see, thanks a lot
[2023-08-20 11:59:03] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:gog| any way to deal directly with how the bot decides when to turn?
[2023-08-20 11:59:03] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:gog| any way to deal directly with how the bot decides when to turn?
[2023-08-20 12:00:00] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Not really, although you might try mucking around with the settings in `aiconfig`. The only other way to do that is to build your own bot, by evaluating the console output of your server
[2023-08-20 12:00:01] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Not really, although you might try mucking around with the settings in `aiconfig`. The only other way to do that is to build your own bot, by evaluating the console output of your server
[2023-08-20 12:00:26] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:gog| i see. cheers
[2023-08-20 12:00:26] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:gog| i see. cheers
[2023-08-20 12:22:02] <armagetronbridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| I agree with Delinquent about Google, they have become evil (and incompetent) in their quest to take over the world. Steer clear.
[2023-08-20 12:22:03] <armagetron-bridge> 14discord:monkey_arma| I agree with Delinquent about Google, they have become evil (and incompetent) in their quest to take over the world. Steer clear.
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[2023-08-20 14:15:43] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-05-20 17:23:14 UTC
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[2023-08-20 14:23:54] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Multiple Grids per Server: That would actually be one of my dreams 🙂 The original game structure, where you only have one life per round, was inspired by the Quake 2 mod "Rocket Arena"; deathmatches with constant respawns were the norm otherwise back then until Counterstrike came along. And Rocket Arena always had multiple games going on simultaneously on each server. They wou <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:23:55] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Multiple Grids per Server: That would actually be one of my dreams 🙂 The original game structure, where you only have one life per round, was inspired by the Quake 2 mod "Rocket Arena"; deathmatches with constant respawns were the norm otherwise back then until Counterstrike came along. And Rocket Arena always had multiple games going on simultaneously on each server. They wou <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:23:55] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| ld run maps that were divided into different zones. There would be one on one arenas, team arenas, last man standing arenas for multiple players, and larger pickup arenas where two teams of X players would try to eliminate each other. And you would switch between these arenas just like that, without leaving the server.
[2023-08-20 14:23:55] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| ld run maps that were divided into different zones. There would be one on one arenas, team arenas, last man standing arenas for multiple players, and larger pickup arenas where two teams of X players would try to eliminate each other. And you would switch between these arenas just like that, without leaving the server.
[2023-08-20 14:24:43] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| I mean, *technically* ctwf fulfils that criteria
[2023-08-20 14:24:44] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| I mean, *technically* ctwf fulfils that criteria
[2023-08-20 14:24:51] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| heh
[2023-08-20 14:24:52] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| heh
[2023-08-20 14:29:20] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| General use of multicore: Yeah, not currently worth it 🙂 Top latency contributors are the network (50 to 150 ms), the monitor's refresh (8 ms average latency minimum for 60 Hz operation and VSync, whatever you do; since we're not doing everything we can, it's currently more like 24 ms). Processing adds what? 5 ms tops on Lucifer's Raspi, I'd say.
[2023-08-20 14:29:20] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| General use of multicore: Yeah, not currently worth it 🙂 Top latency contributors are the network (50 to 150 ms), the monitor's refresh (8 ms average latency minimum for 60 Hz operation and VSync, whatever you do; since we're not doing everything we can, it's currently more like 24 ms). Processing adds what? 5 ms tops on Lucifer's Raspi, I'd say.
[2023-08-20 14:29:45] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| ctwf has different games at once????
[2023-08-20 14:29:45] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| ctwf has different games at once????
[2023-08-20 14:30:34] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| The one place where we can reduce latency right now would be the monitor. See, right now, the cycle goes: Read input, process input, render output, send to monitor, wait for refresh.
[2023-08-20 14:30:35] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| The one place where we can reduce latency right now would be the monitor. See, right now, the cycle goes: Read input, process input, render output, send to monitor, wait for refresh.
[2023-08-20 14:31:08] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| If processing and rendering is fast, and it is, most time is spent waiting for the refresh at the end. Instead, one could:
[2023-08-20 14:31:08] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| If processing and rendering is fast, and it is, most time is spent waiting for the refresh at the end. Instead, one could:
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[2023-08-20 14:38:38] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "Armagetron Advanced | http://www.armagetronad.org/ | Welcome to IRC"
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[2023-08-20 14:39:34] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-05-20 17:23:14 UTC
[2023-08-20 14:39:47] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| You still don't get minimal latency between pressing the button and the actual display update, of course; there is little to be done about that. Even with VSync disabled, the bit of the monitor you are currently interested in only gets refreshed every so often. You could get minimal latency between the button press and the message getting sent to the server, though. Just, instead <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:39:47] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| You still don't get minimal latency between pressing the button and the actual display update, of course; there is little to be done about that. Even with VSync disabled, the bit of the monitor you are currently interested in only gets refreshed every so often. You could get minimal latency between the button press and the message getting sent to the server, though. Just, instead <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:39:47] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| of waiting, you just run the "process input, simulate, send to server" part of the loop without rendering. (I had forgotten the "send to server" bit before). With a tiny delay, maybe 1 ms, so you are not hogging your CPU, burning electricity.
[2023-08-20 14:39:48] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| of waiting, you just run the "process input, simulate, send to server" part of the loop without rendering. (I had forgotten the "send to server" bit before). With a tiny delay, maybe 1 ms, so you are not hogging your CPU, burning electricity.
[2023-08-20 14:44:43] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Lucifer, regarding Shared Objects: Yeah, that is a cool model too. You just have to work a lot with locks in the background, because you need to ensure that no two processes are writing at the same time, and nobody is reading while another process writes. That adds overhead, and risks deadlocks if not used carefully. In C++, it would be very easy to accidentally take two locks at <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:44:44] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Lucifer, regarding Shared Objects: Yeah, that is a cool model too. You just have to work a lot with locks in the background, because you need to ensure that no two processes are writing at the same time, and nobody is reading while another process writes. That adds overhead, and risks deadlocks if not used carefully. In C++, it would be very easy to accidentally take two locks at <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:44:44] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| the same time, but one after the other; another process may want to have the same objects, but in reverse order... not good. It is possible to guard against that, to enforce that every thread can only have one lock active at a time. (The enforcing is costly, but it probably suffice to only do it in debug mode).
[2023-08-20 14:44:44] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| the same time, but one after the other; another process may want to have the same objects, but in reverse order... not good. It is possible to guard against that, to enforce that every thread can only have one lock active at a time. (The enforcing is costly, but it probably suffice to only do it in debug mode).
[2023-08-20 14:46:10] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Bandwidth limits: The bandwidth settings do something, but there is a maximum amount of data the servers and clients actually want to send in every given situation, and if the limits are higher than that, they do nothing; all of the data is sent.
[2023-08-20 14:46:11] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Bandwidth limits: The bandwidth settings do something, but there is a maximum amount of data the servers and clients actually want to send in every given situation, and if the limits are higher than that, they do nothing; all of the data is sent.
[2023-08-20 14:47:16] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| Firehosing, that is, sending each message multiple times before the ACKs even had a chance to arrive: We do it already if high packet loss is detected. It would not take much to make this a standard, configurable practice.
[2023-08-20 14:47:17] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| Firehosing, that is, sending each message multiple times before the ACKs even had a chance to arrive: We do it already if high packet loss is detected. It would not take much to make this a standard, configurable practice.
[2023-08-20 14:48:17] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| I'm not sure right now, do the servers respect the clients bandwidth limits? I might not have bothered with that complication.
[2023-08-20 14:48:18] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| I'm not sure right now, do the servers respect the clients bandwidth limits? I might not have bothered with that complication.
[2023-08-20 14:53:14] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| As far as I'm aware, the server would have no choice but to accept those limitations, no? But at the same time, the server also sends that configuration *to* the client, if what I'm interpreting is correct. Without a specified config, it woud be subject to whatever data rate hte client is willing to accept, would it not? In any case, I very strongly recommend adding firehosing by <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:53:14] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| As far as I'm aware, the server would have no choice but to accept those limitations, no? But at the same time, the server also sends that configuration *to* the client, if what I'm interpreting is correct. Without a specified config, it woud be subject to whatever data rate hte client is willing to accept, would it not? In any case, I very strongly recommend adding firehosing by <clipped message>
[2023-08-20 14:53:14] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| default, and DSCP values of 101 applied to all armagetron traffic
[2023-08-20 14:53:14] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| default, and DSCP values of 101 applied to all armagetron traffic
[2023-08-20 16:05:25] <armagetronbridge> 12discord:zman_0| It would be silly to have an configurable maximal input rate on the client if the sender would not respect it, now that I think more than half a second about it 🙂
[2023-08-20 16:05:25] <armagetron-bridge> 12discord:zman_0| It would be silly to have an configurable maximal input rate on the client if the sender would not respect it, now that I think more than half a second about it 🙂
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[2023-08-20 22:42:34] <Lucifer_arma> as far as multiple grids per server, I was thinking each grid would be in a separate process, but the networking would be in the parent process, routing objects to each subprocess as needed. It sounds like that would create a choke point in the network, but I believe it would actually smooth the whole thing out
[2023-08-20 22:42:34] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| as far as multiple grids per server, I was thinking each grid would be in a separate process, but the networking would be in the parent process, routing objects to each subprocess as needed. It sounds like that would create a choke point in the network, but I believe it would actually smooth the whole thing out
[2023-08-20 22:43:25] <Lucifer_arma> you'd need only one port for network communication. With multiple ports, the kernel has to have buffers for each, and schedule polling each, and so forth. With one, you only have the one, and as long as you poll it fast enough, you can move every message to your own arbitrarily-sized buffers
[2023-08-20 22:43:25] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| you'd need only one port for network communication. With multiple ports, the kernel has to have buffers for each, and schedule polling each, and so forth. With one, you only have the one, and as long as you poll it fast enough, you can move every message to your own arbitrarily-sized buffers
[2023-08-20 22:43:47] <Lucifer_arma> from there, there's plenty of optimization you can do, especially if you're organizing by message type (so you can prioritize acking, for example)
[2023-08-20 22:43:48] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| from there, there's plenty of optimization you can do, especially if you're organizing by message type (so you can prioritize acking, for example)
[2023-08-20 22:44:32] <Lucifer_arma> as far as monitors go, is it possible to use an interupt tied to the refresh rate so that you can do literally everything else, and then the interupt causes the drawing?
[2023-08-20 22:44:33] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| as far as monitors go, is it possible to use an interupt tied to the refresh rate so that you can do literally everything else, and then the interupt causes the drawing?
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[2023-08-22 02:45:05] <Lucifer_arma> There's an interesting problem that had never ever occurred to me
[2023-08-22 02:45:05] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| There's an interesting problem that had never ever occurred to me
[2023-08-22 02:45:47] <Lucifer_arma> So, you have a worker that can run two jobs at a time. You figure if you send timely updates on how many jobs are running back to the scheduler, then the scheduler won't send new jobs while there are already two running
[2023-08-22 02:45:47] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| So, you have a worker that can run two jobs at a time. You figure if you send timely updates on how many jobs are running back to the scheduler, then the scheduler won't send new jobs while there are already two running
[2023-08-22 02:46:08] <Lucifer_arma> The problem, of course, is that in the narrow amount of time when a job has finished, the scheduler could easily send 4-10 new jobs
[2023-08-22 02:46:09] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| The problem, of course, is that in the narrow amount of time when a job has finished, the scheduler could easily send 4-10 new jobs
[2023-08-22 02:46:43] <Lucifer_arma> so the worker's job queue just keeps growing, even though there's already like 20 on it, because once one job finished, for a very small period of time, it's only running one job, and the scheduler sends a shitload more
[2023-08-22 02:46:43] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so the worker's job queue just keeps growing, even though there's already like 20 on it, because once one job finished, for a very small period of time, it's only running one job, and the scheduler sends a shitload more
[2023-08-22 02:47:34] <Lucifer_arma> obviously that means the scheduler is going to have to keep it's own list of jobs that have been assigned, and keep its own tally of how many jobs are running on each worker, *and* workers are going to have to determine for themselves how big the queue can be,
[2023-08-22 02:47:34] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| obviously that means the scheduler is going to have to keep it's own list of jobs that have been assigned, and keep its own tally of how many jobs are running on each worker, *and* workers are going to have to determine for themselves how big the queue can be,
[2023-08-22 02:48:08] <Lucifer_arma> and instead of relying on workers to report how many running jobs they have, the workers will instead report whether or not they are accepting jobs, and the scheduler will only assign jobs to workers that are accepting them
[2023-08-22 02:48:08] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| and instead of relying on workers to report how many running jobs they have, the workers will instead report whether or not they are accepting jobs, and the scheduler will only assign jobs to workers that are accepting them
[2023-08-22 02:48:51] <Lucifer_arma> so jobs will now have several possible states: generated, but not assigned. Assigned, but queued. Running. Finished.
[2023-08-22 02:48:52] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so jobs will now have several possible states: generated, but not assigned. Assigned, but queued. Running. Finished.
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[2023-08-22 10:37:32] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Isn't this already a thing? I'm fairly certain pending states are a thing, even on x86. I'm pretty sure that was what PowerPC's claim to fame was, making that a common feature. I remember when early 00's x86 machines *didn't* have that feature - MSN was a fucking nightmare, especially if you got tabs in like, 05.
[2023-08-22 10:37:32] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Isn't this already a thing? I'm fairly certain pending states are a thing, even on x86. I'm pretty sure that was what PowerPC's claim to fame was, making that a common feature. I remember when early 00's x86 machines *didn't* have that feature - MSN was a fucking nightmare, especially if you got tabs in like, 05.
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[2023-08-22 23:06:31] <Lucifer_arma> this isn't anything to do with that. This is a project I'm working on for myself, a little parallel processing thing
[2023-08-22 23:06:31] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| this isn't anything to do with that. This is a project I'm working on for myself, a little parallel processing thing
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[2023-08-23 09:58:26] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking about architecture in general
[2023-08-23 09:58:26] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking about architecture in general
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[2023-08-24 16:57:25] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: You can have the workers report to the scheduler the total number of jobs they are working on and that are in their queue. Possibly both separately, in case the scheduler does not want the number of parallel jobs a worker can work on known in advance. Then the scheduler can make informed decisions.
[2023-08-24 16:57:25] <armagetronbridge> 15irc:Z-Man| Lucifer_arma: You can have the workers report to the scheduler the total number of jobs they are working on and that are in their queue. Possibly both separately, in case the scheduler does not want the number of parallel jobs a worker can work on known in advance. Then the scheduler can make informed decisions.
[2023-08-24 16:59:23] <Z-Man> What is also popular is "work stealing", that is good when jobs produce more jobs to do as they run. You then don't have a scheduler, the workers just talk among themselves. COMMUNISM again :) You give one worker the big master job, it works on it, produces more jobs that spawn, those jobs land on the first workers own queue.
[2023-08-24 16:59:23] <armagetronbridge> 15irc:Z-Man| What is also popular is "work stealing", that is good when jobs produce more jobs to do as they run. You then don't have a scheduler, the workers just talk among themselves. COMMUNISM again :) You give one worker the big master job, it works on it, produces more jobs that spawn, those jobs land on the first workers own queue.
[2023-08-24 17:00:30] <Z-Man> The other workers, while twiddling their thumbs,randomly poll each other for jobs they could take over, and of course they eventually find jobs with the first worker to do.
[2023-08-24 17:00:31] <armagetronbridge> 15irc:Z-Man| The other workers, while twiddling their thumbs,randomly poll each other for jobs they could take over, and of course they eventually find jobs with the first worker to do.
[2023-08-24 17:01:51] <Z-Man> Most of the time, each worker will then just be busy with the jobs their own processed jobs spawn, communication will be light.
[2023-08-24 17:01:51] <armagetronbridge> 15irc:Z-Man| Most of the time, each worker will then just be busy with the jobs their own processed jobs spawn, communication will be light.
[2023-08-24 17:03:12] <Z-Man> That works especially well with divide and conquer schemes. Say the big job is to process 1000 data points. The first worker does not actually do that, but instead the first job is to split that into two jobs of 500 points each, that are then added to the queue.
[2023-08-24 17:03:12] <armagetronbridge> 15irc:Z-Man| That works especially well with divide and conquer schemes. Say the big job is to process 1000 data points. The first worker does not actually do that, but instead the first job is to split that into two jobs of 500 points each, that are then added to the queue.
[2023-08-24 17:04:06] <Z-Man> Then split again, etc. Of course, if you have a predeternimed amount of data points with equal processing cost, doing it this way is silly and you should just divide them among your workers equally :)
[2023-08-24 17:04:07] <armagetronbridge> 15irc:Z-Man| Then split again, etc. Of course, if you have a predeternimed amount of data points with equal processing cost, doing it this way is silly and you should just divide them among your workers equally :)
[2023-08-24 17:09:02] <Z-Man> Interrupts, from an application point of view, haven't been a thing in a loooooong time. Waiting for VSync is what you get, and waiting on timers. "Preparing everything and sending it to the monitor when ready" is what the GPU does on its own.
[2023-08-24 17:09:02] <armagetronbridge> 15irc:Z-Man| Interrupts, from an application point of view, haven't been a thing in a loooooong time. Waiting for VSync is what you get, and waiting on timers. "Preparing everything and sending it to the monitor when ready" is what the GPU does on its own.
[2023-08-24 17:10:00] <Z-Man> Waiting always means waiting for the specified moment, plus maybe a bit more. A lot more if the system is busy.
[2023-08-24 17:10:01] <armagetronbridge> 15irc:Z-Man| Waiting always means waiting for the specified moment, plus maybe a bit more. A lot more if the system is busy.
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[2023-08-24 21:07:25] <Lucifer_arma> That's a complicated network protocol. :) The simpler version is a DICTATORSHIP where the scheduler generates the jobs and assigns them
[2023-08-24 21:07:25] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| That's a complicated network protocol. :) The simpler version is a DICTATORSHIP where the scheduler generates the jobs and assigns them
[2023-08-24 21:08:09] <Lucifer_arma> the "fix" i went with that was quick and easy was to have the workers report both their active jobs and their queue size as one unit. That fixed it for now, but there are issues with the network that need to be addressed
[2023-08-24 21:08:09] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| the "fix" i went with that was quick and easy was to have the workers report both their active jobs and their queue size as one unit. That fixed it for now, but there are issues with the network that need to be addressed
[2023-08-24 21:08:44] <Lucifer_arma> I fixed a serious database problem, several in fact, by simply moving to postgres instead of mysql, but that's created a new problem, which will be fixed soonish
[2023-08-24 21:08:44] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I fixed a serious database problem, several in fact, by simply moving to postgres instead of mysql, but that's created a new problem, which will be fixed soonish
[2023-08-24 21:09:24] <Lucifer_arma> the next move to make with jobs is to move all the database access to a different place. Instead of accessing the database from the spawned process, I want the main worker process to do all the database stuff
[2023-08-24 21:09:24] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| the next move to make with jobs is to move all the database access to a different place. Instead of accessing the database from the spawned process, I want the main worker process to do all the database stuff
[2023-08-24 21:09:57] <Lucifer_arma> that way, I can take advantage of database optimizations, and also chunk a bunch of work into fewer actual calls to the database, all using the same connection for each worker
[2023-08-24 21:09:57] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| that way, I can take advantage of database optimizations, and also chunk a bunch of work into fewer actual calls to the database, all using the same connection for each worker
[2023-08-24 21:10:45] <Lucifer_arma> but I have bigger fires to put out in the network, heh. I need to trim job sizes, in terms of what gets put over the network, because besides the added latency of taking 100 messages to pass a job around, that's also taking up enough cpu time to process those messages that connections are timing out
[2023-08-24 21:10:45] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but I have bigger fires to put out in the network, heh. I need to trim job sizes, in terms of what gets put over the network, because besides the added latency of taking 100 messages to pass a job around, that's also taking up enough cpu time to process those messages that connections are timing out
[2023-08-24 21:11:00] <Lucifer_arma> and those timeouts aren't being handled as gracefully as they need to be, leading to data being lost along the way
[2023-08-24 21:11:01] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| and those timeouts aren't being handled as gracefully as they need to be, leading to data being lost along the way
[2023-08-24 21:12:51] <Lucifer_arma> I'm also looking at reorganizing how outgoing messages are stored, so I can change how they're handled. Right now, it's just a simple FIFO queue. I think I'm going to make it several queues by message type, and I'll have it pull a message from each queue
[2023-08-24 21:12:52] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I'm also looking at reorganizing how outgoing messages are stored, so I can change how they're handled. Right now, it's just a simple FIFO queue. I think I'm going to make it several queues by message type, and I'll have it pull a message from each queue
[2023-08-24 21:13:39] <Lucifer_arma> that way, one single large multipart message doesn't dominate what gets sent. Then I'll probably move it back a layer on the scheduler where it'll send a message to each worker in turn, so that one needy worker doesn't dominate the scheduler's queue either
[2023-08-24 21:13:40] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| that way, one single large multipart message doesn't dominate what gets sent. Then I'll probably move it back a layer on the scheduler where it'll send a message to each worker in turn, so that one needy worker doesn't dominate the scheduler's queue either
[2023-08-24 21:14:26] <Lucifer_arma> I've been writing this protocol from scratch off and on for a bit over a year now, so it's not as mature as you'd expect if I had more time to work on it, but it's also simply not mature because I haven't been working on it real long
[2023-08-24 21:14:27] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I've been writing this protocol from scratch off and on for a bit over a year now, so it's not as mature as you'd expect if I had more time to work on it, but it's also simply not mature because I haven't been working on it real long
[2023-08-24 21:15:42] <Lucifer_arma> but right now, it's possible for the scheduler to time out a session and delete it, but the worker thinks it's sitll connected and it keeps sending messages to the scheduler, and since it's all UDP, the scheduler receives them
[2023-08-24 21:15:43] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but right now, it's possible for the scheduler to time out a session and delete it, but the worker thinks it's sitll connected and it keeps sending messages to the scheduler, and since it's all UDP, the scheduler receives them
[2023-08-24 21:17:14] <Lucifer_arma> and all this while I'm extremely tempted to try to rewrite portions of it in C++. If I already knew how to make python modules in C++ with swig, I'd go ahead and start doing that. But I'm loathe to do it now, since the learning curve would slow down development, despite the superior result I'd end up with
[2023-08-24 21:17:14] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| and all this while I'm extremely tempted to try to rewrite portions of it in C++. If I already knew how to make python modules in C++ with swig, I'd go ahead and start doing that. But I'm loathe to do it now, since the learning curve would slow down development, despite the superior result I'd end up with
[2023-08-24 22:27:09] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: ok, so here's a thought about games and udp
[2023-08-24 22:27:09] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Z-Man: ok, so here's a thought about games and udp
[2023-08-24 22:27:56] <Lucifer_arma> let's look at a shooter. When you fire your gun, you're looking at something specific. So in the message for the gun firing, you could include what you were looking at, complete with a distance vector.
[2023-08-24 22:27:56] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| let's look at a shooter. When you fire your gun, you're looking at something specific. So in the message for the gun firing, you could include what you were looking at, complete with a distance vector.
[2023-08-24 22:28:34] <Lucifer_arma> When the server gets that information, now it knows what you were shooting at and it can roll the simulation back to see if it's even reasonable that you were able to shoot at that thing
[2023-08-24 22:28:35] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| When the server gets that information, now it knows what you were shooting at and it can roll the simulation back to see if it's even reasonable that you were able to shoot at that thing
[2023-08-24 22:28:44] <Lucifer_arma> And *then* it can determine if you hit it
[2023-08-24 22:28:44] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| And *then* it can determine if you hit it
[2023-08-24 22:29:37] <Lucifer_arma> So in arma, when you turn, maybe you could tell the server what you were looking at. So if you were turning because you were about to hit a wall, the server would get that information, and when it rolls back the simulation to determine where you turned,
[2023-08-24 22:29:38] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| So in arma, when you turn, maybe you could tell the server what you were looking at. So if you were turning because you were about to hit a wall, the server would get that information, and when it rolls back the simulation to determine where you turned,
[2023-08-24 22:30:49] <Lucifer_arma> it can look for the wall you were reacting to. If the wall is really there, then it could accurately place your turn reasonably. If it's not really there, or if it's in a different place than the turn message indicates, the server would handle it differently, of course
[2023-08-24 22:30:49] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it can look for the wall you were reacting to. If the wall is really there, then it could accurately place your turn reasonably. If it's not really there, or if it's in a different place than the turn message indicates, the server would handle it differently, of course
[2023-08-24 22:31:28] <Lucifer_arma> so naturally, someone could modify their client to try to place every wall farther out, but the server isn't so concerned with catching cheaters as it is with simply trying to understand what you were looking at
[2023-08-24 22:31:28] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so naturally, someone could modify their client to try to place every wall farther out, but the server isn't so concerned with catching cheaters as it is with simply trying to understand what you were looking at
[2023-08-24 22:31:59] <Lucifer_arma> it'll still simulate the wall where it's supposed to be. It's just asking "is it plausible that the player saw the wall?"
[2023-08-24 22:31:59] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it'll still simulate the wall where it's supposed to be. It's just asking "is it plausible that the player saw the wall?"
[2023-08-24 22:33:14] <Lucifer_arma> Also, if the turn move reports the closest wall is quite a distance, but because of some other player's turn a wall got placed that the first player wouldn't have seen at all, then the server will *know* the first player didn't see the wall
[2023-08-24 22:33:14] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Also, if the turn move reports the closest wall is quite a distance, but because of some other player's turn a wall got placed that the first player wouldn't have seen at all, then the server will *know* the first player didn't see the wall
[2023-08-24 22:33:44] <Lucifer_arma> so instead of trying to compensate for the possibility that the first player might have seen the wall, the server knows for a fact that they didn't and can go ahead and just simulate the collision
[2023-08-24 22:33:45] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so instead of trying to compensate for the possibility that the first player might have seen the wall, the server knows for a fact that they didn't and can go ahead and just simulate the collision
[2023-08-24 22:35:42] <Lucifer_arma> in a shooter, it's more clear what the intent of the player is. Whatever their gun is pointing out is clearly the target, and the server only has to ask if it's plausible the target was where the player says it was when they fired
[2023-08-24 22:35:43] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| in a shooter, it's more clear what the intent of the player is. Whatever their gun is pointing out is clearly the target, and the server only has to ask if it's plausible the target was where the player says it was when they fired
[2023-08-24 22:37:08] <Lucifer_arma> likewise, if we're talking about a run and jump move, the jump command would include what the player was looking at, so if the player thought they were on the edge of the chasm and the jump should take them to the other side, the server can ask "Is it reasonable that the player was where they thought they were?" and fudge the simulation to allow them to land where they're expecting to land
[2023-08-24 22:37:10] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| likewise, if we're talking about a run and jump move, the jump command would include what the player was looking at, so if the player thought they were on the edge of the chasm and the jump should take them to the other side, the server can ask "Is it reasonable that the player was where they thought they were?" and fudge the simulation to allow them to land where they're expecting to land
[2023-08-24 22:38:28] <Lucifer_arma> it would have to look ahead at what would have happened if the move happened where the player says it happened, but it's only asking "is this plausible?". You could use a random number to figure it out, if you want
[2023-08-24 22:38:28] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it would have to look ahead at what would have happened if the move happened where the player says it happened, but it's only asking "is this plausible?". You could use a random number to figure it out, if you want
[2023-08-24 22:38:58] <Lucifer_arma> in an RPG, that's what you'd do. You'd just do a skill check against a person's jumping skill, or their marksman skill, or whatever to see if they hit.
[2023-08-24 22:38:58] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| in an RPG, that's what you'd do. You'd just do a skill check against a person's jumping skill, or their marksman skill, or whatever to see if they hit.
[2023-08-24 22:40:10] <Lucifer_arma> so in arma, the server would ask "If the player turned where they said they turned, would they have hit the wall?" If the answer is no, and the simulation says they should have hit it anyway, well, that's what rubber does, isn't it? It gives the player some time for their move to still miss the wall
[2023-08-24 22:40:10] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so in arma, the server would ask "If the player turned where they said they turned, would they have hit the wall?" If the answer is no, and the simulation says they should have hit it anyway, well, that's what rubber does, isn't it? It gives the player some time for their move to still miss the wall
[2023-08-24 22:40:20] <Lucifer_arma> but instead, you could just flip a coin and go with that
[2023-08-24 22:40:21] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but instead, you could just flip a coin and go with that
[2023-08-24 22:43:05] <Lucifer_arma> I guess the key parts here are somehow telling the server what the player was looking at and looking ahead to see what the result would have been based on what the player saw
[2023-08-24 22:43:05] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I guess the key parts here are somehow telling the server what the player was looking at and looking ahead to see what the result would have been based on what the player saw
[2023-08-24 22:44:00] <Lucifer_arma> I'd ignore the different cams, because that's not the important piece. What's important is simply what's in front of the cycle when the player pressed their turn key.
[2023-08-24 22:44:00] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I'd ignore the different cams, because that's not the important piece. What's important is simply what's in front of the cycle when the player pressed their turn key.
[2023-08-24 22:46:04] <Lucifer_arma> so with something stationary, like the grid wall, you're basically only asking if the player's turn happened during the latency delay. If, after all's said and done, the turn still happened on the other side of the wall, then obviously they hit the wall and didn't turn fast enough
[2023-08-24 22:46:05] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so with something stationary, like the grid wall, you're basically only asking if the player's turn happened during the latency delay. If, after all's said and done, the turn still happened on the other side of the wall, then obviously they hit the wall and didn't turn fast enough
[2023-08-24 22:48:09] <Lucifer_arma> so if their current ping+ping charity is 100ms, the turn command says the wall was 120ms away, but the server's simulation says it was only 80ms away, you can flip a coin
[2023-08-24 22:48:10] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so if their current ping+ping charity is 100ms, the turn command says the wall was 120ms away, but the server's simulation says it was only 80ms away, you can flip a coin
[2023-08-24 22:48:26] <Lucifer_arma> but if the wall was 50ms away, there's no difference to split, they hit the wall
[2023-08-24 22:48:26] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but if the wall was 50ms away, there's no difference to split, they hit the wall
[2023-08-24 22:49:13] <Lucifer_arma> but if the wall *was* 120ms away, then you place the turn precisely where the player put it because your simulations are in agreement
[2023-08-24 22:49:14] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but if the wall *was* 120ms away, then you place the turn precisely where the player put it because your simulations are in agreement
[2023-08-24 22:55:16] <Lucifer_arma> also, on a slightly different note, what is the ping, exactly? I mean, I get that it's an average, and it's "server sends a message, client acks, and the server measures the time between the send and receiving the ack", and then you grab a few of those and average them together
[2023-08-24 22:55:16] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| also, on a slightly different note, what is the ping, exactly? I mean, I get that it's an average, and it's "server sends a message, client acks, and the server measures the time between the send and receiving the ack", and then you grab a few of those and average them together
[2023-08-24 22:55:21] <Lucifer_arma> so it's a moving average
[2023-08-24 22:55:22] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so it's a moving average
[2023-08-24 22:55:49] <Lucifer_arma> is it a simple moving average? Exponential? Weighted in some way?
[2023-08-24 22:55:50] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| is it a simple moving average? Exponential? Weighted in some way?
[2023-08-24 22:56:43] <Lucifer_arma> for @delinquent: it's worth considering that one of the things we don't know in physics is if the speed of light is the same in both directions. We only technically know the average speed of light.
[2023-08-24 22:56:44] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| for @delinquent: it's worth considering that one of the things we don't know in physics is if the speed of light is the same in both directions. We only technically know the average speed of light.
[2023-08-24 22:57:23] <Lucifer_arma> So if we send a signal to, say, Mars, and we get an answer back, we divide the time of the round trip in half to get the average speed of the signal and that agrees with our physical constants
[2023-08-24 22:57:24] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| So if we send a signal to, say, Mars, and we get an answer back, we divide the time of the round trip in half to get the average speed of the signal and that agrees with our physical constants
[2023-08-24 22:57:57] <Lucifer_arma> but what if what's really happening is that the light sent to mars moves at twice the speed of light, but the return trip is instantaneous?
[2023-08-24 22:57:57] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but what if what's really happening is that the light sent to mars moves at twice the speed of light, but the return trip is instantaneous?
[2023-08-24 22:58:32] <Lucifer_arma> Our average calculation would be the same, but the actual physical phenomenon is obviously very different. But we don't have any way to know what's really happening.
[2023-08-24 22:58:32] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Our average calculation would be the same, but the actual physical phenomenon is obviously very different. But we don't have any way to know what's really happening.
[2023-08-24 22:59:08] <Lucifer_arma> network communications are the same problem. We don't know, and it's not possible to know, how long it takes for one message from client to server to take to get there
[2023-08-24 22:59:09] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| network communications are the same problem. We don't know, and it's not possible to know, how long it takes for one message from client to server to take to get there
[2023-08-24 23:00:05] <Lucifer_arma> the best we can do is guess based on previous messages, and we can only measure it based on roundtrip times using acks and stuff, but for any given message, we have no idea how long it took
[2023-08-24 23:00:06] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| the best we can do is guess based on previous messages, and we can only measure it based on roundtrip times using acks and stuff, but for any given message, we have no idea how long it took
[2023-08-24 23:00:38] <Lucifer_arma> it's possible for a message on a slow dialup connection to take 5ms to get from client to server, but the ack takes 150ms, which gives us a ping of 155ms.
[2023-08-24 23:00:38] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it's possible for a message on a slow dialup connection to take 5ms to get from client to server, but the ack takes 150ms, which gives us a ping of 155ms.
[2023-08-24 23:01:18] <Lucifer_arma> this doesn't tell the client how long it took for the original sent message to be received by the server
[2023-08-24 23:01:19] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| this doesn't tell the client how long it took for the original sent message to be received by the server
[2023-08-24 23:03:50] <Lucifer_arma> and as with the speed of light, there's no clock-syncing that can happen that'll fix it, because the clock-syncing itself relies on the same fundamentals we're trying to measure in the first place, which is why NTP, no matter how awesome it is, still only gets each individual client within 50ms or so of the actual time the atomic clock is marking
[2023-08-24 23:03:50] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| and as with the speed of light, there's no clock-syncing that can happen that'll fix it, because the clock-syncing itself relies on the same fundamentals we're trying to measure in the first place, which is why NTP, no matter how awesome it is, still only gets each individual client within 50ms or so of the actual time the atomic clock is marking
[2023-08-24 23:05:46] <Lucifer_arma> from the server's point of view, simply receiving a message tells it nothing about when it was actually sent. So the message includes other information, like the cycle's position on the grid when the message was created, and the client's timestamp, and I'll stop there
[2023-08-24 23:05:46] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| from the server's point of view, simply receiving a message tells it nothing about when it was actually sent. So the message includes other information, like the cycle's position on the grid when the message was created, and the client's timestamp, and I'll stop there
[2023-08-24 23:07:04] <Lucifer_arma> anyway, I got onto this train of thought because freeciv has the annoying problem where you can tell a unit to go somewhere, and it'll map out the route it'll take, but then when processing the turn, an enemy might move a unit that stops yours from moving, but the enemy unit keeps moving
[2023-08-24 23:07:04] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| anyway, I got onto this train of thought because freeciv has the annoying problem where you can tell a unit to go somewhere, and it'll map out the route it'll take, but then when processing the turn, an enemy might move a unit that stops yours from moving, but the enemy unit keeps moving
[2023-08-24 23:07:53] <Lucifer_arma> so your unit is stopped, and there's no indication of why, and it's a serious problem in freeciv because why didn't the enemy unit just get processed before or after mine? Mine didn't have to stop! But now I have to go and reissue the exact same move command so it can calculate a new route!
[2023-08-24 23:07:53] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so your unit is stopped, and there's no indication of why, and it's a serious problem in freeciv because why didn't the enemy unit just get processed before or after mine? Mine didn't have to stop! But now I have to go and reissue the exact same move command so it can calculate a new route!
[2023-08-24 23:08:49] <Lucifer_arma> and since I forgot what I was doing with that specific unit because there are dozens of units all moving around, I probably moved it somewhere else and now I've wasted two turns with this one unit that should be building a railroad RIGHT NOW
[2023-08-24 23:08:49] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| and since I forgot what I was doing with that specific unit because there are dozens of units all moving around, I probably moved it somewhere else and now I've wasted two turns with this one unit that should be building a railroad RIGHT NOW
[2023-08-24 23:09:20] <Lucifer_arma> (there are obviously ways that freeciv's turn processing can be improved)
[2023-08-24 23:09:21] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| (there are obviously ways that freeciv's turn processing can be improved)
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[2023-08-27 11:07:36] <armagetron-bridge> 04discord:ZDHades| There's a veritasium vid on that
[2023-08-27 11:07:36] <armagetronbridge> 04discord:ZDHades| There's a veritasium vid on that
[2023-08-27 11:08:22] <armagetronbridge> 04discord:ZDHades| Speed of light thing
[2023-08-27 11:08:23] <armagetron-bridge> 04discord:ZDHades| Speed of light thing
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[2023-08-27 23:26:38] <Lucifer_arma> @ZDHades: I've seen it. Seen a few others, too. I don't know why I watch them, I'm not interested in *that* problem. But there's a good Tom Scott video on the Two Generals Problem.
[2023-08-27 23:26:39] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| @ZDHades: I've seen it. Seen a few others, too. I don't know why I watch them, I'm not interested in *that* problem. But there's a good Tom Scott video on the Two Generals Problem.
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[2023-08-28 00:34:04] <Lucifer_arma> anybody know a handy tool for analyzing network protocol logs?
[2023-08-28 00:34:05] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| anybody know a handy tool for analyzing network protocol logs?
[2023-08-28 00:35:10] <Lucifer_arma> I guess I could write a script that puts them together. I want to see how the communication actually happens, where I'll log every message sent with a timestamp and the message headers and maybe the first 20 bytes of the content (or something like that, something so I can see what's in the message)
[2023-08-28 00:35:11] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I guess I could write a script that puts them together. I want to see how the communication actually happens, where I'll log every message sent with a timestamp and the message headers and maybe the first 20 bytes of the content (or something like that, something so I can see what's in the message)
[2023-08-28 00:36:06] <Lucifer_arma> Then I want to see them all shown in order so it looks like a dialog. You know, client sends a ping, server send an ack. Or client sends a ping, doesn't get an ack, resends the ping, then gets the ack.
[2023-08-28 00:36:07] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Then I want to see them all shown in order so it looks like a dialog. You know, client sends a ping, server send an ack. Or client sends a ping, doesn't get an ack, resends the ping, then gets the ack.
[2023-08-28 00:37:23] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: did you do anything like this to see how arma's communication is working? You know, look for problems, see if the protocol is running correctly, etc?
[2023-08-28 00:37:24] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Z-Man: did you do anything like this to see how arma's communication is working? You know, look for problems, see if the protocol is running correctly, etc?
[2023-08-28 00:40:49] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, I'll just make them each write to a file, and then I'll write a script that loads both files line by line into the same list, then sort the list, and with timestamp being the first part of each line, it should put everything in order so that I can see how the two sides are communicating.
[2023-08-28 00:40:50] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| yeah, I'll just make them each write to a file, and then I'll write a script that loads both files line by line into the same list, then sort the list, and with timestamp being the first part of each line, it should put everything in order so that I can see how the two sides are communicating.
[2023-08-28 01:59:44] <Lucifer_arma> heh, I was not mentally prepared to find out that the first parts of the network that I wrote don't work at all: message encoding/decoding, which is why nothing else seems to be working right
[2023-08-28 01:59:44] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| heh, I was not mentally prepared to find out that the first parts of the network that I wrote don't work at all: message encoding/decoding, which is why nothing else seems to be working right
[2023-08-28 01:59:52] <Lucifer_arma> it's a wonder anything is working at all, all things considered
[2023-08-28 01:59:52] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| it's a wonder anything is working at all, all things considered
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[2023-08-28 05:35:09] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "Armagetron Advanced | http://www.armagetronad.org/ | Welcome to IRC"
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[2023-08-28 05:35:11] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-04-20 19:56:37 UTC
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[2023-08-28 05:35:49] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-05-20 17:23:14 UTC
[2023-08-28 08:17:34] <armagetron-bridge> 04discord:ZDHades| With the food delivery service getting messed up for a day! Yup saw it too haha
[2023-08-28 08:17:34] <armagetronbridge> 04discord:ZDHades| With the food delivery service getting messed up for a day! Yup saw it too haha
[2023-08-28 08:19:13] <armagetron-bridge> 04discord:ZDHades| For me the alternative is watching brain numbing content with absolutely no positive gain, so id rather watch some thought provoking content even if it may not be useful
[2023-08-28 08:19:15] <armagetronbridge> 04discord:ZDHades| For me the alternative is watching brain numbing content with absolutely no positive gain, so id rather watch some thought provoking content even if it may not be useful
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[2023-08-28 10:03:24] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-05-20 17:23:14 UTC
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[2023-08-28 10:03:25] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "Armagetron Advanced | http://www.armagetronad.org/ | Welcome to IRC"
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[2023-08-28 10:03:29] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-04-20 19:56:37 UTC
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[2023-08-28 12:30:29] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-04-20 19:56:37 UTC
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[2023-08-28 12:31:30] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-05-20 17:23:14 UTC
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[2023-08-28 16:29:01] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-04-20 19:56:37 UTC
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[2023-08-28 17:22:26] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-04-20 19:56:37 UTC
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[2023-08-28 22:06:28] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-05-20 17:23:14 UTC
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[2023-08-28 22:25:11] <Lucifer_arma> I'm with you on that, I just don't have any interest in the speed of light question :)
[2023-08-28 22:25:11] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I'm with you on that, I just don't have any interest in the speed of light question :)
[2023-08-28 22:25:44] <Lucifer_arma> The two generals problem is also about basic sockets, and sits right at the heart of every network, so arma has that problem too
[2023-08-28 22:25:45] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| The two generals problem is also about basic sockets, and sits right at the heart of every network, so arma has that problem too
[2023-08-28 22:26:26] <Lucifer_arma> My solution to it for now is to hold every outgoing message until it's acked (except for acks themselves) and resend the message if it isn't acked within a certain amount of time.
[2023-08-28 22:26:26] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| My solution to it for now is to hold every outgoing message until it's acked (except for acks themselves) and resend the message if it isn't acked within a certain amount of time.
[2023-08-28 22:27:18] <Lucifer_arma> I'm not addressing the extreme corner case where a message doesn't get acked even though it's been received because that's such an extreme case and the app I'm working on isn't intended to run over the internet anyway
[2023-08-28 22:27:18] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I'm not addressing the extreme corner case where a message doesn't get acked even though it's been received because that's such an extreme case and the app I'm working on isn't intended to run over the internet anyway
[2023-08-28 22:27:47] <Lucifer_arma> but when a message doesn't get acked, there are two possibilities: 1) it wasn't received at all, 2) it was received and the ack went missing
[2023-08-28 22:27:47] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but when a message doesn't get acked, there are two possibilities: 1) it wasn't received at all, 2) it was received and the ack went missing
[2023-08-28 22:28:44] <Lucifer_arma> resending the message triggers another ack being generated, so in either case, the sender just keeps sending the message until it gets acked. The receive keeps track of messages it has already received so that it doesn't process a re-send unnecessarily
[2023-08-28 22:28:45] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| resending the message triggers another ack being generated, so in either case, the sender just keeps sending the message until it gets acked. The receive keeps track of messages it has already received so that it doesn't process a re-send unnecessarily
[2023-08-28 23:17:21] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:staybased_| Hey
[2023-08-28 23:17:22] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:staybased_| Hey
[2023-08-28 23:38:39] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:staybased_| were there any cheaters in the games history?
[2023-08-28 23:38:40] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:staybased_| were there any cheaters in the games history?
[2023-08-28 23:47:15] <armagetron-bridge> 04discord:DrDeathpwnsz| heyo! just joined, hope to see you all on one day 😄
[2023-08-28 23:47:16] <armagetronbridge> 04discord:DrDeathpwnsz| heyo! just joined, hope to see you all on one day 😄
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[2023-08-29 02:25:41] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| There have been a few that made bots that allow consistent perfect turns and escapes, here's a thread about someone going incognito and asking a cheater to buy their bot code https://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtopic.php?p=230719#p230719
[2023-08-29 02:25:41] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| There have been a few that made bots that allow consistent perfect turns and escapes, here's a thread about someone going incognito and asking a cheater to buy their bot code https://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtopic.php?p=230719#p230719
[2023-08-29 02:26:51] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| I think all of the bots people came up with were always weak to digs
[2023-08-29 02:26:52] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| I think all of the bots people came up with were always weak to digs
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[2023-08-29 08:00:15] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:staybased_| ah ok thanks, so he didn't do much damage
[2023-08-29 08:00:15] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:staybased_| ah ok thanks, so he didn't do much damage
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[2023-08-29 11:02:31] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| Swag was a more malicious cheater that somewhat helped kill of the game to a certain extent I think around 2014 by DDoSing tournament servers. He didn’t even play the modes that the tournaments were for, he’d just come watch and ddos regularly. He also had a modded client with an “aimbot” as someone in the last thread put it
[2023-08-29 11:02:32] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| Swag was a more malicious cheater that somewhat helped kill of the game to a certain extent I think around 2014 by DDoSing tournament servers. He didn’t even play the modes that the tournaments were for, he’d just come watch and ddos regularly. He also had a modded client with an “aimbot” as someone in the last thread put it
[2023-08-29 11:04:21] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:staybased_| how do you mean under 'aimbot'?
[2023-08-29 11:04:22] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:staybased_| how do you mean under 'aimbot'?
[2023-08-29 11:12:18] <armagetron-bridge> 07discord:Nanu| Same as the bot I described earlier, allows you to perfectly turn (aim) your cycle down tunnels, always turn without a gap on outside corners, which is pretty impossible to do perfectly every single time. I don’t have exact numbers but the best who practice for years can do those perfect turns maybe 10-20% of the time when they try
[2023-08-29 11:12:18] <armagetronbridge> 07discord:Nanu| Same as the bot I described earlier, allows you to perfectly turn (aim) your cycle down tunnels, always turn without a gap on outside corners, which is pretty impossible to do perfectly every single time. I don’t have exact numbers but the best who practice for years can do those perfect turns maybe 10-20% of the time when they try
[2023-08-29 11:20:21] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:staybased_| ok this is hard/annoying to code
[2023-08-29 11:20:22] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:staybased_| ok this is hard/annoying to code
[2023-08-29 11:21:10] <armagetron-bridge> 02discord:niveK.POT| If I get a perfect turn it's pretty much accidental for sure lol
[2023-08-29 11:21:10] <armagetronbridge> 02discord:niveK.POT| If I get a perfect turn it's pretty much accidental for sure lol
[2023-08-29 11:22:29] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| You don't need to modify the in-game bots, you can use the scripting engine to do it. You'll need to set these options in your server config:
[2023-08-29 11:22:30] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| ```
[2023-08-29 11:22:30] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| WAIT_FOR_EXTERNAL_SCRIPT 1|1
[2023-08-29 11:22:30] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| You don't need to modify the in-game bots, you can use the scripting engine to do it. You'll need to set these options in your server config:
[2023-08-29 11:22:30] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| ```
[2023-08-29 11:22:31] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| WAIT_FOR_EXTERNAL_SCRIPT 1|1
[2023-08-29 11:22:32] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| WAIT_FOR_EXTERNAL_SCRIPT_TIMEOUT 3
[2023-08-29 11:22:32] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| WAIT_FOR_EXTERNAL_SCRIPT_TIMEOUT 3
[2023-08-29 11:22:33] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_NEXT_ROUND 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:33] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_NEXT_ROUND 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:34] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_ALL 1|1
[2023-08-29 11:22:35] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_ALL 1|1
[2023-08-29 11:22:35] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_GAME_TIME_INTERVAL 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:36] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_GAME_TIME_INTERVAL 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:37] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_NUM_HUMANS 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:37] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_NUM_HUMANS 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:38] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_TEAM_PLAYER_ADDED 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:39] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_TEAM_PLAYER_ADDED 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:39] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_TEAM_PLAYER_REMOVED 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:40] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_TEAM_PLAYER_REMOVED 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:41] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_ROUND_COMMENCING 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:41] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_ROUND_COMMENCING 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:42] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_NEXT_ROUND 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:42] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_NEXT_ROUND 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:43] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_ROUND_SCORE 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:44] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_ROUND_SCORE 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:45] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_MATCH_SCORE 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:45] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_MATCH_SCORE 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:46] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_PLAYER_RENAMED 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:46] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_PLAYER_RENAMED 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:47] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_PLAYER_LEFT 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:48] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_PLAYER_LEFT 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:49] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_INVALID_COMMAND 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:49] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_INVALID_COMMAND 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:50] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_FLAG_TAKE 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:50] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_FLAG_TAKE 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:51] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_FLAG_SCORE 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:52] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| LADDERLOG_WRITE_FLAG_SCORE 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:52] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| INTERCEPT_UNKNOWN_COMMANDS 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:53] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| INTERCEPT_UNKNOWN_COMMANDS 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:54] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| CONDENSE_CONQUEST_OUTPUT 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:54] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| CONDENSE_CONQUEST_OUTPUT 1
[2023-08-29 11:22:55] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| PLAYER_GRIDPOS_INTERVAL 0.1
[2023-08-29 11:22:55] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| PLAYER_GRIDPOS_INTERVAL 0.1
[2023-08-29 11:22:56] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| ```
[2023-08-29 11:22:57] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| ```
[2023-08-29 11:22:58] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| You can adjust `PLAYER_GRIDPOS_INTERVAL 0.1` as needed
[2023-08-29 11:22:58] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| You can adjust `PLAYER_GRIDPOS_INTERVAL 0.1` as needed
[2023-08-29 11:31:19] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:staybased_| I'm not familiar with the commands, will try these out someday
[2023-08-29 11:31:19] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:staybased_| I want to beat the soloplayer bot without touching my keyboard 😄 just4fun
[2023-08-29 11:31:19] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:staybased_| I'm not familiar with the commands, will try these out someday
[2023-08-29 11:31:20] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:staybased_| I want to beat the soloplayer bot without touching my keyboard 😄 just4fun
[2023-08-29 11:32:10] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Just bear in mind that we don't generally take too kindly to bots being used in public game servers
[2023-08-29 11:32:10] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Just bear in mind that we don't generally take too kindly to bots being used in public game servers
[2023-08-29 11:35:24] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:staybased_| I have nothing bad in mind and when i play multiplayer i only play legit
[2023-08-29 11:35:25] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:staybased_| I have nothing bad in mind and when i play multiplayer i only play legit
[2023-08-29 11:35:48] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| S'FINE, JUST WORTH MENTIONING IS ALL
[2023-08-29 11:35:48] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| S'FINE, JUST WORTH MENTIONING IS ALL
[2023-08-29 11:35:54] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| o sorry caps
[2023-08-29 11:35:54] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| o sorry caps
[2023-08-29 11:36:41] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:staybased_| :cat_okidoki:
[2023-08-29 11:36:42] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:staybased_| :cat_okidoki:
[2023-08-29 11:37:47] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:staybased_| but is it allowed to post something like a "devlog" in media?
[2023-08-29 11:37:48] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:staybased_| but is it allowed to post something like a "devlog" in media?
[2023-08-29 11:38:11] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| as in, general posting on your progress, here or on the forums? sure
[2023-08-29 11:38:12] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| as in, general posting on your progress, here or on the forums? sure
[2023-08-29 11:41:23] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:staybased_| #tron-media 😄
[2023-08-29 11:41:23] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:staybased_| #tron-media 😄
[2023-08-29 11:41:45] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| prolly better to keep it in #programming unless its video footage but yeah sure
[2023-08-29 11:41:45] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| prolly better to keep it in #programming unless its video footage but yeah sure
[2023-08-29 17:03:32] <Lucifer_arma> It's best to share your code :)
[2023-08-29 17:03:32] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| It's best to share your code :)
[2023-08-29 17:03:44] <Lucifer_arma> If you wind up making a great bot that can work as an AI, that would be even better.
[2023-08-29 17:03:45] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| If you wind up making a great bot that can work as an AI, that would be even better.
[2023-08-29 17:04:08] <Lucifer_arma> I've always encouraged people to write bots with that in mind, especially if you write bots that can do team play effectively
[2023-08-29 17:04:09] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I've always encouraged people to write bots with that in mind, especially if you write bots that can do team play effectively
[2023-08-29 17:04:51] <Lucifer_arma> We've had others before swag, even. Focus was someone who also ddos'd servers. he hit mine one night, and faded off after that. We beat him by basically ignoring him.
[2023-08-29 17:04:52] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| We've had others before swag, even. Focus was someone who also ddos'd servers. he hit mine one night, and faded off after that. We beat him by basically ignoring him.
[2023-08-29 17:05:14] <Lucifer_arma> That was back when the rip bug was a thing, and he took advantage of that a lot to crash servers. There was someone before him who was also before my time who did basically the same things
[2023-08-29 17:05:15] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| That was back when the rip bug was a thing, and he took advantage of that a lot to crash servers. There was someone before him who was also before my time who did basically the same things
[2023-08-29 17:06:39] <Lucifer_arma> Then there was Jonathan. He wasn't a cheater, but he's notable here because he would use local multiplayer to add several bots to a game. He was never disruptive about it, always asking permission before bringing his bots in, or only going on servers where there wasn't anybody so he could test his bots
[2023-08-29 17:06:39] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Then there was Jonathan. He wasn't a cheater, but he's notable here because he would use local multiplayer to add several bots to a game. He was never disruptive about it, always asking permission before bringing his bots in, or only going on servers where there wasn't anybody so he could test his bots
[2023-08-29 17:06:56] <Lucifer_arma> I don't remember if he ever posted his bot code, though, but I do remember always wanting him to
[2023-08-29 17:06:57] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I don't remember if he ever posted his bot code, though, but I do remember always wanting him to
[2023-08-29 17:08:02] <Lucifer_arma> but yeah, any coding you want to do is welcome, just don't be disruptive to people playing the game and you're fine.
[2023-08-29 17:08:02] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but yeah, any coding you want to do is welcome, just don't be disruptive to people playing the game and you're fine.
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[2023-08-29 20:50:02] <Lucifer_arma> gotta love this little problem. My message logs are fine, there's no way they could be wrong. So, when I see an anomaly in the log, is it the program misbehaving, or is the reporting tool that I wrote misbehaving?
[2023-08-29 20:50:03] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| gotta love this little problem. My message logs are fine, there's no way they could be wrong. So, when I see an anomaly in the log, is it the program misbehaving, or is the reporting tool that I wrote misbehaving?
[2023-08-29 20:56:19] <Lucifer_arma> ah, it was me misusing the tool that I wrote :)
[2023-08-29 20:56:20] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| ah, it was me misusing the tool that I wrote :)
[2023-08-29 23:00:29] <Lucifer_arma> I need a function that'll take in a single int, generally starting at 1 and going up to, say, 1000000 or more, and outputs 3 unique bytes. I want to color code message IDs in my message analyzer
[2023-08-29 23:00:29] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I need a function that'll take in a single int, generally starting at 1 and going up to, say, 1000000 or more, and outputs 3 unique bytes. I want to color code message IDs in my message analyzer
[2023-08-29 23:01:23] <Lucifer_arma> Basically, I want to color code the message ID in the listing, and the ack reply-to field, so that I can easily match them up, but I don't want the colors to dither, I want nearby numbers to have distinct colors
[2023-08-29 23:01:24] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| Basically, I want to color code the message ID in the listing, and the ack reply-to field, so that I can easily match them up, but I don't want the colors to dither, I want nearby numbers to have distinct colors
[2023-08-29 23:02:50] <armagetron-bridge> 09discord:chopeh_| !who
[2023-08-29 23:02:50] <armagetronbridge> 09discord:chopeh_| !who
[2023-08-29 23:19:39] <Lucifer_arma> haha, as expected, I'm not the first one to need this :)
[2023-08-29 23:19:39] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| haha, as expected, I'm not the first one to need this :)
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DISCLAIMER: These logs of public chat may contain some content which may not be appropriate for all audiences. Use at your own risk.
Logs from 2006-2009 pulled from wrtlprnft
Format changes at: 2015-08-25, 2017-02-20, and 2020-03-23. Times (2015 and later) should be Eastern.
• Website was created by nelg
• Design:
» Layout is loosely based on an old design by Durf.
» Icons on the tools page were originally by Royce, new icons added will try to follow some of the design language.
» Various other icon selections include icons from Crystal, crystalsvg, oxygen, and breeze icon themes.
» Other icons: fontawesome
is a site that has tools, maps, and other various items. It orignally only existed as a server control panel, but I slowly began adding stuff such as a homepage and tools.
Gridder
.