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[2021-12-10 03:58:50] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "Armagetron Advanced | http://www.armagetronad.org/ | Welcome to IRC"
[2021-12-10 03:58:50] -!- Topic set by ChanServ!services@services.oftc.net on 2021-07-26 22:57:25 UTC
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[2021-12-10 03:58:51] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-04-20 19:56:37 UTC
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[2021-12-10 03:59:00] -!- tungsten.libera.chat set mode #armagetron +nt
[2021-12-10 03:59:00] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2021-05-20 17:23:14 UTC
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[2021-12-11 03:43:01] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "Armagetron Advanced | http://www.armagetronad.org/ | Welcome to IRC"
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[2021-12-25 23:17:36] <Lucifer_arma> I don't know when c++ added the auto keyword, but I'm already having a love/hate relationship with it
[2021-12-25 23:18:04] <Lucifer_arma> I love the convenience.  You do "auto somename = SomeFunctionThatReturnsAType()" and "somename" will be the correct type
[2021-12-25 23:18:25] <Lucifer_arma> I hate how it makes the code less readable, though, because an explicitly typed language should require all types to be explicitly declared
[2021-12-25 23:18:44] <Lucifer_arma> so when I read a line that contains an auto type, I have to go digging to find out what type it actually is
[2021-12-25 23:18:46] <Lucifer_arma> so, love/hate

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[2021-12-27 19:35:08] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: are we still using gitlab as the main repo, or did we just give in to github?
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[2021-12-27 23:21:56] <Armanelgtron> Lucifer_arma, still gitlab, although the repositories still sync between github, gitlab, and launchpad

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[2021-12-28 18:28:56] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: busy?  Feel like tracking down a random segfault?  https://github.com/davefancella/cerritos
[2021-12-28 18:29:15] <Lucifer_arma> the question I'm asking now is "Is it my Pi or is it SDL?"
[2021-12-28 18:29:57] <Lucifer_arma> problem: While I'm using SDL, I haven't even tried building on another other than a Pi 4 in Raspberry OS.  It *should* build and run
[2021-12-28 18:30:05] <Lucifer_arma> the example program showing the problem is "spriteTest"
[2021-12-28 18:32:05] <Lucifer_arma> if anybody tries to build it and has to isntall dependencies not listed in BUILD, lemme know so I can add them
[2021-12-28 19:42:57] <Lucifer_arma> nvm.  Unable to figure it out, I decided to factor my MainWindow class, because it was written before I had a bunch of other things in place
[2021-12-28 19:43:12] <Lucifer_arma> somehow, that fixed it, probably some dangling pointer somewhere
[2021-12-28 19:43:42] <Lucifer_arma> also, glad c++ has chaining constructors now.  That simplified my code quite a bit.  No more having to maintain 5 different constructors because of "convenience" overloads.
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[2021-12-30 09:52:53] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: We have chained constructors? Since when? I'm still at C++17 at work.
[2021-12-30 09:54:12] <Z-Man> The key to loving 'auto' is to use an IDE with strong 'show me the type' and 'go to definition' capabilities. qtcreator is a good one.
[2021-12-30 09:54:56] <Z-Man> Or, failing that, only use if where it makes the code shorter and more maintainable (so, for lamdas obviously, or intermediate expressions of unknown type in template functions)
[2021-12-30 09:56:54] <Z-Man> or where the precise type does not matter; using it for the result of integer type calculations can save you a lot of pain when the types ever change.
[2021-12-30 09:57:20] <Z-Man> 'does not matter' meaning 'does not matter for understanding the code'.
[2021-12-30 10:00:58] <Z-Man> SINCE C++ 11???? Darn.
[2021-12-30 17:41:42] <Lucifer_arma> where I've used it so far is also where I stumbled across it: std iterators.  I can see the flexibility auto provides, but I can also see it being abused
[2021-12-30 17:42:12] <Lucifer_arma> still, as long as the interface you're using with auto is the same regardless of type, and that can be easily inferred by context, I can see auto being quite helpful
[2021-12-30 17:42:56] <Lucifer_arma> one way it can be helpful is if, say, std::map doesn't exist on a platform I want to support.  For that platform, I could copy in std::map from stdc++, or I could write my own.
[2021-12-30 17:43:04] <Lucifer_arma> either way, my iterator will still work
[2021-12-30 17:44:14] <Lucifer_arma> since my own context here is a game engine, and we *do* want to support game consoles at some point (you know, when we can afford to by developer licenses and stuff), that could come up.
[2021-12-30 17:44:34] <Lucifer_arma> I honestly don't know which c++ standard is reliably available on consoles, or android or ios for that matter
[2021-12-30 17:45:05] <Lucifer_arma> that's why I'm sticking to c++11 for now.  That and I don't want to get too overwhelmed with language changes, heh.
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[2021-12-31 03:24:26] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: so, my son wants me to formally ask you to jump on cerritos.  It goes without saying that I would like you to take an interest and help out.  I understand being busy.
[2021-12-31 03:25:07] <Lucifer_arma> so I'm not going to actually ask.  I *am* going to remind you that all the existing 3d game engines suck in every possible way, and we can do better even if all we do is copy arma code over.
[2021-12-31 03:26:09] <Lucifer_arma> so that last bit is a sticky point.  Cerritos is mit licensed.  Arma is GPL.  You've still written like 85% of arma, if not more.  So you can probably tell what you've written (and therefore what you can re-license)
[2021-12-31 03:26:14] <Lucifer_arma> so yeah, that's up to you.
[2021-12-31 03:26:31] <Lucifer_arma> actually, your entire participation is up to you.
[2021-12-31 03:27:25] <Lucifer_arma> currently working on making a qt-like widget library that works for games and getting 2d stuff to work well.  Son (Leviathan) is working on collision detection.
[2021-12-31 03:28:08] <Lucifer_arma> we talked tonight about what an 0.1.0 release looks like.  So that means we're at a point where we can try to recruit others.
[2021-12-31 03:28:38] <Lucifer_arma> Also, cerritos (the actual game engine) is at a point where, with a few changes, it can accomodate existing arma code.  There's not a lot to it.
[2021-12-31 03:30:17] <Lucifer_arma> If you do decide to take an interest, there are some requirements.  OpenGL is a no-go.  It's OpenGLES 3.1 tops.  prefer OpenGLES 3.0.  We're trying to support Android 5+.
[2021-12-31 03:30:27] <Lucifer_arma> There's no OpenGLANYTHING right now.
[2021-12-31 03:30:52] <Lucifer_arma> C++11 until there's a real reason to actually commit to a specific version that's different.
[2021-12-31 03:31:29] <Lucifer_arma> Also, only allowed dependencies outside the source tree are SDL2 and OpenAL.  No OpenAL code has been written yet.  Obviously std++ is ok.
[2021-12-31 03:32:22] <Lucifer_arma> you know, in case anybody else here is interested and is not named Z-man.  We're actively recruiting.  On a limited basis.  Anybody currenty in this room qualifies, though.
[2021-12-31 03:33:40] <Lucifer_arma> Just so we're clear, we went through all the existing game engines and tested each and every one, painstakingly, even writing code to test them
[2021-12-31 03:34:08] <Lucifer_arma> we didn't decide to write our own just because it'd be fun.  We decided to do so because they really do all suck balls in the worst possible way.
[2021-12-31 11:38:52] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: Sorry, I have to nope out hard. I have no interest in writing a new general purpose engine. The expected outcome is this, replace "Standard" with "Engine that sucks donkey balls": https://xkcd.com/927/
[2021-12-31 11:39:57] <Z-Man> And the best case outcome is that people actually start using it, and then you have to support them. Not for me. I just want to write games whatever way.
[2021-12-31 11:42:23] <Z-Man> Have you checked out raylib https://www.raylib.com/ ? That seems to be going a bit in your direction. It's super lightweight, portable, binds to any language, you are in control of the main function.
[2021-12-31 11:53:34] <Z-Man> cerritos from the starship, not the city, I would assume?
[2021-12-31 11:57:27] <Z-Man> So anyway, 'just because it'd be fun' would be one of the better reasons to write an engine. There are a couple of perfectly adequate choices out there. Sure, you have to deal with their warts, but it's not like your own engine isn't going to have them.
[2021-12-31 12:07:05] <Z-Man> Like, I still very much like Godot, where you best use GDScript and don't insist on writing in Python or C++, you don't control the main loop, and 3D isn't as pretty as it could be.
[2021-12-31 16:43:32] <Lucifer_arma> no gui in raylib.  Meaning I'd still have to write one.  Which I have to do anyway, heh.
[2021-12-31 16:44:07] <Lucifer_arma> yes, cerritos the starship.  Like Python, we're embedding numerous star trek (mostly lower decks) references in the docs/examples
[2021-12-31 16:44:44] <Lucifer_arma> it's not so much that I need control over the main loop, it's that oftentimes there's no way to do something from the main loop without doing something like making a timer
[2021-12-31 16:45:06] <Lucifer_arma> even the qt-based engine uses a QTimer for that
[2021-12-31 16:45:50] <Lucifer_arma> so, I think that if a game engine is going to take over the main loop, there should at least be a callback from it, and that it should be possible to take over the main loop anytime the engine falls short of whatever you're trying to do
[2021-12-31 16:46:39] <Lucifer_arma> that was one of the big problems with panda3d.  The other being their documentation sucked a lot, not just a little.
[2021-12-31 16:48:04] <Lucifer_arma> I also think game engines should just do more in general.  Computer games have now been developed continuously for over 50 years.  We know what the common tasks are, and yet every game engine stops at the same line and says "After this line, that's your game"
[2021-12-31 16:48:24] <Lucifer_arma> sidescrolling is sidescrolling, the engine should do it.
[2021-12-31 16:50:51] <Lucifer_arma> then there's OGRE3d, which is an awesome engine that I still can't get to actually run
[2021-12-31 16:51:00] <Lucifer_arma> an engine that doesn't run is, well, an engine that doesn't run
[2021-12-31 16:53:49] <Lucifer_arma> and when the engine does all the things, but it doesn't do them the way you need them, it should be easy for you to change the engine to do the thing you need your way
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