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[2021-01-24 03:25:02] <-- luke-jr has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
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[2021-01-24 05:19:55] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma, luke-jr: Yeah, there are conditions where separating kids and parents it is absolutely the right thing to do. Not just in the context of immigration. Like if the parents go to jail for any reason. Very young kids can go with them, of course, but at some point, they are better off outside without their parents.
[2021-01-24 05:20:45] <Z-Man> Or if the parents are just plain incapable of caring for the kids, because of drug problems or mental conditions.
[2021-01-24 05:23:22] <Z-Man> Some people simply lack the basic parenting insticts. There have been one or two cases around here where kids simply starved because their parents failed to feed them, and big waves were made because the Jugendamt (center for youth and families?) is supposed to prevent such things in cooperation with doctors.
[2021-01-24 05:25:02] <Z-Man> Anyway, common thread: Society should divide kids and parents if and only if it's for the good of the kids. I fully expect THAT to go way back.
[2021-01-24 06:14:29] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: it's possible, and I haven't researched this, that at least in the context of immigration, there was previously a policy where families weren't separated at all and were instead deported together and that the Obama administration instituted a new policy that created situations where kids would be kept while the parents were jailed/deported
[2021-01-24 06:15:10] <Lucifer_arma> so it's important that, even in this situation, the family relationships were tracked, parents and kids were informed, and any kids kept were placed with family already in the US
[2021-01-24 06:15:27] <Lucifer_arma> which is, again, nothing like the family separation policy under Trump
[2021-01-24 06:15:50] <Lucifer_arma> but if that were the case, then it would technically be true that family separations started under Obama
[2021-01-24 06:16:58] <Lucifer_arma> as for names, here in Texas we have Child Protection Services, which is a somewhat known name around the country.  There's also Social Services.  I don't remember how the exact administrative breakdown happens in Texas, but these programs are all run at the state level
[2021-01-24 06:17:44] <Lucifer_arma> in the event that a CPS investigation finds an immigrant family who is here illegally and also determines they have to take the kids away from the family, they escalate to the feds for some of that
[2021-01-24 06:18:52] <Lucifer_arma> one of the conflicts between the states and the federal government during the family separation policy involved exactly that.  That's where the "sanctuary city" concept comes from: if a city official finds someone is here illegally, but they haven't committed a felony, the city doesn't tell the federal government about them
[2021-01-24 06:19:51] <Lucifer_arma> so like in California, if CPS took a kid from their family, they'd put them in the foster system (if there wasn't other family to place them with) and then jail the parents, but previously they would've escalated and let ICE figure out what to do with the parents
[2021-01-24 06:20:31] <Lucifer_arma> but under the family separation policy, California wasn't willing to risk putting the kids in cages
[2021-01-24 06:21:35] <Lucifer_arma> but it's worth keeping in mind how racist our immigration system actually is.  They do nothing to track down Europeans who overstay their visas, and it's a common strategy to become a citizen by a) being European, and b) overstay a visa for awhile
[2021-01-24 06:21:57] <Lucifer_arma> but if a brown person from south of the border tries it, it's kids in cages for them
[2021-01-24 06:22:57] <Lucifer_arma> it was basically the same under Obama, both Bushes, Clinton, etc.  Except for the "in cages" part, of course, but being from south of the border was immediate deportation while being white and European cut you some slack
[2021-01-24 06:27:40] <Lucifer_arma> and I'm not going to try to oversimplify immigration.  It's a complex situation.  And we can't have the kind of economic growth we need to be able to support any kind of middleclass and avoid degenerating into feudalism without immigrants.  Our population growth just isn't fast enough through standard citizen reproduction.
[2021-01-24 06:27:57] <Lucifer_arma> we need immigration if we're going to be the so-called First World nation we want to be
[2021-01-24 06:28:29] <Lucifer_arma> also, if we want to be the shining beacon of freedom for the world, we need immigration, we need that poem on the Statue of Liberty to be true
[2021-01-24 06:30:08] <Lucifer_arma> but I honestly don't think we can talk honestly and humanely about immigration until we root out all the racism that's currently embedded both in the system and in the conversation
[2021-01-24 06:30:33] <Lucifer_arma> and as far as maintaining a strong middle class and eliminating poverty, immigration isn't even a drop in the ocean compared to the size of those problems
[2021-01-24 06:32:12] <Lucifer_arma> and last I checked, both luke-jr and I live in states whose economies would be bankrupted if we deported all illegal immigrants today
[2021-01-24 06:32:34] <Lucifer_arma> so it's a complex situation :)
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[2021-01-24 16:27:59] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup"
[2021-01-24 16:27:59] -!- Topic set by guru3 on 2015-04-22 20:50:50 UTC
[2021-01-24 16:28:04] -!- barjavel.freenode.net set mode #armagetron +cnrt
[2021-01-24 16:28:04] -!- Channel #armagetron created on 2006-11-26 06:42:45 UTC
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