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Log from 2019-10-29:
[05:26:58] *** Joins: physkets (~physkets@unaffiliated/physkets)
[08:39:38] *** Quits: physkets (~physkets@unaffiliated/physkets) (Quit: physkets)
[17:04:06] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: are there enough macos players that if we can build a 64-bit build, they can test it?
[17:04:33] <Lucifer_arma> I ask because I just did a quick googling and it looks like we could run high sierra in a virtual machine to build arma
[17:05:27] <Lucifer_arma> I have all intel machines, these days, for some reason, which matters, apparently
[17:09:36] <Z-Man> There is at least one, they filed a defect on Launchpad.
[17:09:38] <Lucifer_arma> ah, nvm, it would violate the EULA for macos
[17:09:48] <Lucifer_arma> I saw that, that was why I was asking :)
[17:10:05] <Armanelgtron> I know a couple macos players, syre and headhunter
[17:10:06] <Z-Man> I tried running High Sierra a while back. Yes, it works, technically.
[17:10:22] <Z-Man> There's the EULA issue.
[17:10:53] <Z-Man> And then, to be honest, I don't get along with MacOS at all.
[17:10:57] <Lucifer_arma> other than the eula issue, it only has to work well enough to build the game, and do a quick sanity check of the build (start it up and look at the splash screen)
[17:11:31] <Z-Man> I don't even know wheter the build system we have still works on modern XCode.
[17:11:42] <Z-Man> Oh, wait, I do know. I tried. It doesn't.
[17:11:47] <Lucifer_arma> well, I'll put it on my growing todo list, then
[17:12:14] * Lucifer_arma wonders what it would take to cross-compile for macos from linux
[17:13:16] <Z-Man> Bah. By now, the game is low-tech enough that Mac users can run it in a virtual machine that runs Linux :)
[17:13:38] <Armanelgtron> or, run WINE under MacOS and run the Windows versions
[17:13:40] <Lucifer_arma> maybe we should consider packaging it that way for mac users then
[17:14:50] <Z-Man> WINE should work, too. That's how I used to quickly test cross compiled builds.
[17:15:38] <Lucifer_arma> speaking of wine, and in a completely different context, have you ever nabbed a windows app and tried to build a native linux version linking to wine?
[17:15:57] <Lucifer_arma> I'm curious about trying that with one of the xbox360 emulators that're out there
[17:16:48] <Lucifer_arma>  because it would be silly to run windows in a vm just so I can run an xbox360 emulator
[17:17:05] <Z-Man> No. I thought that path was intended for Windows developers who want to do a quick and dirty linux port?
[17:17:35] <Lucifer_arma> well, more of a "you can develop for linux while using all the same stupid windows libraries you like!" path
[17:18:30] <Lucifer_arma> I'm working on using dolphin-emu to replace the wii, and in my usual overreach, am also wanting to knock out the xbox
[17:19:11] <Lucifer_arma> but the xbox emulator in question uses d3d and/or something else that is windows-only for display
[17:20:24] <Lucifer_arma> also, the emulator in questions supposedly runs in wine just fine
[17:20:32] <Z-Man> I'm avoiding doing stuff like that. It always turns out that I spent weeks until I have things setup all right, then I play an hour or two and get bored of it.
[17:20:58] <Z-Man> I'd just run it in WINE then without further tinkering. Unless it's super performance critical.
[17:21:26] <Z-Man> https://launchpad.net/~flosoft/+archive/ubuntu/cross-apple cross compiling to MacOS seems possible.
[17:21:40] <Lucifer_arma> well, if it's super-performance critical, I could just throw more hardware at it
[17:22:09] <Lucifer_arma> the xbox360 ought to be old enough now that emulating it should be reasonable, given a solid enough build
[17:22:44] <Lucifer_arma> and now I remember what's stopping me, heh.  I don't have a dongle for the xbox360 wireless controllers, because the stupid manufacturer had to use their own special protocol
[17:23:18] <Z-Man> You do have to emulate a powerPC core, though.
[17:23:35] <Z-Man> or were it three? I think it was three.
[17:24:24] <Lucifer_arma> I don't remember how many cores it has, but it's definitelly ppc
[17:25:58] <Lucifer_arma> but, one thing at a time.  Right now, the wii emulator is the priority.  :)
[17:26:11] <Lucifer_arma> from there, the mame setup I used to have, but using wii controllers for the gamepads
[17:26:49] <Lucifer_arma> in fact, if I had gotten interested in the raspberry pi before trying the wii emulator, I might be doing something completely different
[17:28:23] <Z-Man> A Raspii is cool, but it only has the power to go up to the N64/Playstation 1 or thereabouts.
[17:28:48] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, but it would also eliminate a complete computer sitting under my tv
[17:29:12] <Lucifer_arma> and come in a box so small that I could velcro it to the back of the tv itself :)
[17:29:33] <Lucifer_arma> but now that I've declared my media pc has to emulate the wii, that rules out the raspberry for it
[17:29:34] <Z-Man> True. I stuck mine in a case that fits quite neatly there, but it's still a brick.
[17:29:48] <Z-Man> (Mine = my living room TV PC)
[17:30:21] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, I've got a so-called mini-atx in there, running a decent intel all-in-one mobo
[17:30:59] <Lucifer_arma> it's got surround sound, so the primary motivation to moving the wii and xbox to the pc, somehow, is giving them surround sound
[17:31:11] <Lucifer_arma> secondary motivation is freeng up the space they both take up
[17:31:41] <Lucifer_arma> I looked into mini-itx replacements, and it's possible, but tricky
[17:33:51] <Z-Man> The smaller the boards go, the less extensible they get.
[17:34:39] <Z-Man> My case is a regular ATX (though on the very small side), the board also mini-something Intel All In One with passive CPU cooling.
[17:35:32] <Lucifer_arma> I wonder if we got the same board, heh.  And yeah, the lack of extensibility is a big problem
[17:35:44] <Lucifer_arma> the mini-itx boards I found will have like one pcie slot
[17:35:49] <Z-Man> It has a slot for a GPU and I think three other PCI-E cards (lost count because I thought too much about double width cards)
[17:36:48] <Z-Man> Could be, heh. Let me check the box
[17:37:05] <Z-Man> An ASRock Super Alloy J3455M
[17:37:59] <Lucifer_arma> close, actually
[17:37:59] <Z-Man> Ah, just two non-GPU PCI-E slots
[17:38:04] <Lucifer_arma> mine's an asrock j-something
[17:39:22] <Z-Man> Micro-ATX, it says.
[17:40:18] <Lucifer_arma> ah, q1900M
[17:40:28] <Lucifer_arma> https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Q1900M/
[17:40:55] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, micro atx is an atx mobo with just the four top screws, iirc
[17:41:34] <Lucifer_arma> actual micro atx cases aren't nearly as small as I want them to be
[17:41:39] <Z-Man> Going by the picture, mine is almost identical. It just has the two memory slots next to each other.
[17:41:44] <Lucifer_arma> I want something roughly the size of my xbox360
[17:42:42] <Z-Man> Yeah, I had the case before for the old full-ATX board and didn't want to get yet another new one.
[17:43:31] <Lucifer_arma> the two mobo's are pretty similar
[17:44:47] <Lucifer_arma> you've got faster ram, and potentially faster CPU
[17:45:08] <Lucifer_arma> the thing I really need, though, is for the audio outputs to include the rear speakers
[17:45:19] <Lucifer_arma> without that, I have to give up one pci slot for a sound card
[17:46:16] <Lucifer_arma> but the smallest mini-atx cases I've found just aren't that small :(
[17:46:53] <Lucifer_arma> I suppose I could use my recently-acquired-but-still-growing fiber-reinforced polymer skills to build my own case
[17:48:17] <Z-Man> Bah. Just throw everything together, put it into an aquarium, fill it with clean mineral oil. Done!
[17:49:04] <Z-Man> I think that at work, we have these machines, they're quite small:
[17:49:04] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, then put a heating element under it and heat it up to about 250 degrees F and you can build whatever kind of mobo you want!
[17:49:05] <Z-Man> https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/desktops-all-in-one-pcs/new-precision-3431-desktop-workstation/spd/precision-3431-workstation
[17:50:06] <Z-Man> The annoying thing about them is that the cases can't hold any 3.5'' hard drive.
[17:50:32] <Z-Man> We do have 2TB SSDs, though, so not much complaining.
[17:51:38] <Lucifer_arma> also, the case isn't that much smaller than the one I'm already using
[17:51:40] <Lucifer_arma> it's like a foot tall!
[17:53:45] <Lucifer_arma> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ZPWOA6I/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
[17:53:49] <Lucifer_arma> that's what I'm using right now
[17:54:45] <Lucifer_arma> your dell is significantly smaller width
[17:55:11] <Lucifer_arma> that's something.  (Ignoring Dell being almost as predatory as microsoft, heh)
[17:56:09] <Z-Man> Them selling the things in one piece is a significant andvantage; that way, they can cram in all the stuff relatively neatly, something you can never really do if you build your own from parts.
[17:56:12] <Lucifer_arma> well, I think if I want to insist on running dolphin-emu, I'm a have to commit to mini-itx, because that's where the really small stuff is that's not raspii
[17:56:40] <Lucifer_arma> that's true, but my experience with dell is that upgrading is difficult in many cases
[17:57:06] <Lucifer_arma> but their cases are also really nice, built solidly for service technicians.  My wife's old dell can be opened up completely without tools
[17:57:14] <Z-Man> There's also the NUC line. You only get the CPU integrated GPU then, of course.
[17:57:16] <Lucifer_arma> you can swap out hard drives easily, and installing them into the case is no tools
[17:57:45] <Lucifer_arma> and, if I buy Dell, I'd be supporting an Austin business, since their headquarters are here :)
[17:57:50] <Z-Man> Yeah, even the two laptops I had were pretty well repairable.
[17:58:22] <Lucifer_arma> but Dell knows their target market is IT professionals, and ease of service is a big deal when you work on computers for a living
[17:59:23] <Lucifer_arma> mini-itx cases manage to get a lot of space by pushing the PSU outside of the case, like a laptop
[17:59:44] <Z-Man> Cheaters.
[18:00:03] <Lucifer_arma> heh
[18:00:09] <Lucifer_arma> but that's exactly what the wii and xbox do!
[18:01:04] <Z-Man> Ugh, thanks for reminding me about that XBox thing.
[18:01:43] <Lucifer_arma> what I really want is a mini-atx/itx case attached to the back of a decent-sized tv
[18:01:50] <Z-Man> The Raspii does the same, of course. Though if it is a media center PC, you may get away with having it powered by your TV's USB out.
[18:02:41] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, but the raspii does it to make integrating it with other components easier
[18:03:11] <Lucifer_arma> I found a case that holds a raspii and a 7 inch touch screen that, with minimal work, you can integrate the PSUs for the screen and the mobo
[18:03:39] <Lucifer_arma> so, it's slightly different than just trying to recover space in the case
[18:04:33] <Z-Man> Also, then it's one board and different power supplies for the markets with different wall plugs.
[18:05:11] <Z-Man> Not X different boards with weird huge sockets that easily break off.
[18:05:24] <Lucifer_arma> true.  I forgot the point of the raspii was to make inexpensive computers available worldwide :)
[18:06:41] <Z-Man> In the UK. Worldwide is just a side effect.
[18:07:35] <Z-Man> Anyway, bedtime once again. Night!
[18:14:18] <Lucifer_arma> 'night
[19:30:33] <Armanelgtron> hey are you planning to build 0.4 or 0.2 or both on macos?
[19:30:40] <Armanelgtron> as 64-bit
[22:58:48] *** Quits: Z-Man (~Z-Man@p4FE3E7DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[23:02:53] *** Joins: Z-Man (~Z-Man@2002:4fe3:e9f3:0:60ef:2a67:d5c7:9b30)

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