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Log from 2018-06-01:
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[15:43:05] <Lucifer_arma> woo-hoo!  Out of the hospital in time for the ladle :)
[15:44:05] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: Welcome back :P
[15:45:10] <Lucifer_arma> wow, if you want the forums to look busy, just go away for a few days
[15:45:14] <Lucifer_arma> ct|kyle: thank you
[15:45:23] <Lucifer_arma> this time I walked out with an antidepressant prescription
[15:46:48] * ct|kyle needs to remember to update ladle servers
[15:47:03] <ct|kyle> not really sure who need / get mod / admin privleges
[15:51:13] * Lucifer_arma needs to setup his ladle server, in case it's needed
[15:58:57] <ct|kyle> I have a feeling we'll have more servers than teams
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Log from 2018-06-02:
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[08:54:25] <physkets> Hey!
[08:54:33] <physkets> Do you guys use pgp signatures?
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[15:28:21] <Lucifer_arma> why are wireless guitar systems still so expensive?
[15:28:49] <Lucifer_arma> like, everything else has dropped in price, but wireless guitar systems are sitting out there like "We're still just as expensive as we were in the 90s, so fuck off jerk!"
[15:29:44] <Lucifer_arma> I can get bluetooth transmitters/receivers for half the price, but the latency would make it unplayable
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[17:19:30] <Lucifer_arma> my son's working through the tutorials, having a great time, and having a surprisingly challenging time
[17:19:49] <Lucifer_arma> of course, he's also pushing his skills, using the safe space of the tutorials to work on specific skills
[17:19:55] <Lucifer_arma> so, ++ to the tutorials
[19:26:35] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [oneshotserver] r38 added ldconfig call to propagate zthread installation... || [themes] r46 Random commit
[19:50:27] <ct|kyle> anyone have ladle serve settings yet?
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Log from 2018-06-03:
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[02:46:18] <physkets> The 0.4 version seems to make my latop run hotter than the 0.2.8
[02:46:37] <physkets> I can only play it for a relatively short duration
[02:46:48] <physkets> Any idea why this might be?
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[09:11:48] <TheNate> Hey, can someone tell me where i get the Linux Server package for the Version; "0.2.9_alpha_r1483"?
[09:16:18] <physkets> TheNate: if you're building from source, I think you can just pass it a flag
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[09:53:15] <TheNate> thx
[09:57:35] <Z-Man> physkets: Does the FPS counter in the top right corner show exorbitant numbers? Then you simply run without VSYNC on 0.4.
[09:58:19] <Z-Man> The mechanisms for that changed from 0.2.8 to 0.4. 0.4 should have a menu option somewhere in the screen settings, probably advanced. Can't remember right now.
[10:07:14] <physkets> Z-Man: Yep, it gives me ~300fps
[10:07:48] <physkets> the V-Sync was set to 'Default'
[10:07:59] <physkets> I tried setting V-Sync to 'Wait', but it still gives me the same kinds of fps
[10:23:30] <Z-Man> physkets: If an app restart does not help, you'll need to use whatever your OS and graphics driver allow to force VSync.
[10:23:48] <Z-Man> For NVIDIA cards, for example, there are some environment variables you can set.
[10:29:34] <physkets> Z-Man: I'm using an integrated intel card
[10:30:16] <physkets> also, many settings are not persistent across restarts... for eg., resolution, fullscreen...
[10:30:25] <physkets> and sometimes, it changes arbitrarily
[10:35:47] <physkets> Z-Man: And no, the 'V-Sync' setting ia also not persistent across restarts, and it doens't seem to work, even within a sesssion
[10:36:04] <physkets> Any idea how I can force this in an env variable, with an intel card?
[11:08:36] <Z-Man> No, no idea.
[11:40:19] <physkets> Z-Man: but doesn't that seems morelike a bug in the game rather than of the environ?
[11:56:59] <Lucifer_arma> problem there is, I'm using a second-gen intel laptop and it runs fine, those settings persist as expected
[11:57:25] <Lucifer_arma> so, reproducing the bug is pretty important, and ruling out the environment is even more important, since I don't experience it with intel graphics
[11:57:38] <Lucifer_arma> and that's on two computers, actually, with the other one being seventh-gen intel
[11:59:35] <physkets> ah... mine's 7th gen too
[11:59:58] <physkets> i5-7200U
[12:00:32] <Lucifer_arma> heh, I've already forgotten what the other one is.  It's a quad-core low power mobo with the cpu soldered on
[12:01:06] <Lucifer_arma> mini-atx, we use it for the tv, but I play armagetron on it from time to time, so I can play it on a Big Screen
[12:02:52] <Lucifer_arma> I guess I'd start by checking permissions on the config directory and files
[12:03:06] <Lucifer_arma> settings can't persist if you don't have write permissions
[12:06:35] <Lucifer_arma> physkets: are you running from the build directory, or did you install it?
[12:10:00] <Lucifer_arma> ok, I'm going to reboot, and then do some warmups
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[12:26:31] <physkets> Lucifer_arma: built from latest source...
[12:26:51] <physkets> directly from the bzr 0.4 repository
[12:41:53] <Lucifer_arma> are you running from the build directory or did you install it?
[12:46:07] <Z-Man> The fact that VSYNC does not work is not an armagetronad bug, VSYNC is not part of the vanilla OpenGL spec and we can't support all vendor specific solutions.
[12:46:35] <Lucifer_arma> intel uses the mesa drivers
[12:46:56] <Lucifer_arma> dunno if that matters, but it is something I've learned recently :)
[12:47:57] <Z-Man> That the settings don't persist may be a bug. Do just the graphics settings do that? If so, it's not really that they don't persist, it's that on startup, setting the last video mode fails and we revert to known safe values.
[12:49:16] <Z-Man> Now, the strategy we use for that fallback may be up for debate. I made a bug entry for that, for me, it falls back to 640x480 windowed too eagerly.
[12:50:03] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: That may help. And I remembered that my wife's laptop also has an Intel GPU.
[12:50:39] <Lucifer_arma> so where do I go to find out what team I'm playing for?
[12:53:02] <Z-Man> Discord, probably.
[12:53:12] <physkets> Lucifer_arma: I don't understand what you're asking.... I did install it, and I did build it from source
[12:53:19] <Z-Man> Gotta install that app, I guess.
[12:53:22] <Lucifer_arma> where are you running it from?
[12:53:36] <Lucifer_arma> did you do "make install" and run it as "armagetronad"?
[12:53:50] <physkets> oh, well, the script puts things executables in /usr/bin
[12:54:01] <Lucifer_arma> or did you just do "make" and do "./src/armagetronad_main"?
[12:54:24] <Lucifer_arma> so you installed it and you're running it from the installed executable?
[12:54:52] <physkets> Lucifer_arma: https://ptpb.pw/LDQ-/bash
[12:55:10] <physkets> Yes, I installed it
[12:55:21] <physkets> and running the installed executable
[12:56:25] <Lucifer_arma> ok, so is it only the graphics settings that aren't persisting or is it all settings?
[12:56:31] <Lucifer_arma> i.e. does your player name persist?
[12:56:42] <Lucifer_arma> sinewav: do I have to use discord to play in the ladle?
[12:57:08] <physkets> player name and other settings seem to persist
[12:59:46] <physkets> I've had them for a very long time now, and this is in my ~/.config/armagetronad/user_3_1_utf8.cfg
[12:59:56] <physkets> Lucifer_arma: https://ptpb.pw/j4H3
[13:10:19] <Lucifer_arma> when you run it from the terminal, what kind of output in the terminal do you get?
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[13:23:01] <physkets> Lucifer_arma: okay, a very funny thing ahppened when I ran it from the terminal
[13:23:18] <physkets> all the settings were correct, AND the fps stayed at ~60
[13:25:18] <physkets> And now I tried running it directly, and the same behaviour continues... it seems like everything is fixed
[13:25:22] <physkets> this is weird
[13:25:36] <physkets> I will check again tomorrow and tell you guys
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[13:28:08] <Lucifer_arma> can anybody see http://armawiki.davefancella.com ?
[13:33:01] <Z-Man> I just see run(); there.
[13:34:33] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: also, from chat on the server, ct seems to be short on on players.
[13:39:21] <Lucifer_arma> which server?
[13:39:38] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: but you see something there?  (I expect it to not work, I just can't get a dns lookup on it)
[13:39:58] <Armanelgtron> Z-Man: Are you recording the ladle?
[13:40:28] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: Yes, I see something.
[13:40:43] <Z-Man> Armanelgtron: Trying, if Z-Girl does not trample on the power switch.
[13:42:14] <Lucifer_arma> so, how do I find a team?  :/
[13:44:43] <Z-Man> I asked on Discord. Let's see if they tell me something.
[13:45:03] <Z-Man> Discord does not have /me :(
[13:46:04] <Z-Man> Peat says that ww is also in need.
[13:46:46] <Lucifer_arma> that's what Gazelle just said
[13:48:15] <Z-Man> tinyurl.com/ladle110 says Bzchu.
[14:03:19] <Armanelgtron> How do we know what servers are actually being ladled? All of them which are populated, or?
[14:03:47] <Armanelgtron> I feel like I'm asking a dumb question :P
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[14:07:20] <Z-Man> Armanelgtron: yeah, as far as I'm concerned, I just follow the crowd.
[14:07:41] <Z-Man> Gotta get the wiki back in order. Now the relevant info is at least in three different places.
[14:08:05] <Z-Man> Some Website for the brackets, some google doc for the teams, and who-knows what for the servers.
[14:08:23] <Z-Man> Goddammit, the discord app is driving me up the wall.
[14:09:01] <Armanelgtron> @ Lucifer_arma You don't seem to have the php extention running in whatever the armawiki.davefancilla.com is
[14:09:31] <Armanelgtron> It seems to be just sending the php document directly to the browser, instead of being executed
[14:10:07] <Armanelgtron> that's more appearant when right clicking and hitting view source on a webbrowser
[14:13:50] <Lucifer_arma> I give up
[14:14:54] <Lucifer_arma> if anybody's looking for a player, I'll be around
[14:51:21] <Lucifer_arma> well, since I didn't get to play in the ladle, I setup a test wiki for the ArmaUnified and ArmaLegacy skins
[14:51:35] <Lucifer_arma> it's working for me at http://armawiki.davefancella.com/
[14:55:19] <Armanelgtron> background grid seems quite large
[14:56:00] <sinewav> TWBD 2:0 Psy6
[14:58:45] <Lucifer_arma> Armanelgtron: that's taken from a 0.4 screenshot in the UI
[14:59:38] <Armanelgtron> the menu background? I believe that scales based on resolution
[14:59:56] <Lucifer_arma> it might.  In which case I took it at full screen
[15:00:04] <Lucifer_arma> at my desktop resolution
[15:00:17] <Lucifer_arma> I see one serious problem, you can't read the "Log in" link
[15:00:41] <Lucifer_arma> in fact, that whole bar is kinda hard to read
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[15:09:00] <Lucifer_arma> I like the grid being big.  It's simple.
[15:09:39] <Armanelgtron> it matches the big fonts, ha
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[15:22:35] <Lucifer_arma> I see the difference in grid size
[15:23:36] <Lucifer_arma> when I switch to ArmagetronLegacy
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[15:31:24] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [themes] r48 Adjusted personal bar colors so they can be read || [themes] r47 Working on wiki
[15:43:47] <Z-Man> Heh, I thought TWBD stood for Team Win By Default.
[15:45:53] <Lucifer_arma> um, oops?
[15:46:47] <Lucifer_arma> well, I guess it doesn't matter to me anymore which version of phpbb we're running, since I can't run anything older than 3.2 on my laptop for testing purposes
[15:50:34] <Z-Man> Ah, had I opened the correct tournament bracket org page, I'd have seen the servers.
[15:56:48] <Lucifer_arma> well, since I can't do anything with the forums for now, I guess I'll work on davecms
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[16:18:27] <peatcoal> Lucifer_arma: sorry you didn't get to play.. thought you went to the CT team
[16:18:56] <peatcoal> Z-Man: thanks for all the help
[16:20:36] <Lucifer_arma> peatcoal: never found them.
[16:21:01] <peatcoal> they were in light's US but supported by redeption
[16:21:23] <peatcoal> uhh, by R i mean
[16:21:35] <Lucifer_arma> I was there and asked, and got no answers
[16:21:39] <peatcoal> yeah :/
[16:21:53] <peatcoal> I think the problem is noone wanted to captain an open team this time
[16:22:11] <Lucifer_arma> I feel like the noob-friendly tournament isn't very noob-friendly if someone like me can't play :(
[16:22:17] <peatcoal> there were some subs available in our server for TWBD and psychotic but you missed out on that
[16:22:29] <peatcoal> yeah - it's not very noob friendly tbh
[16:22:55] <Lucifer_arma> well, the original concept, if we were going to get back to it, is that the only software you need to play in the ladle is the game itself
[16:23:01] <peatcoal> especially when the wiki isn't editable
[16:23:23] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, that's a bit of a problem
[16:23:28] <peatcoal> well, and an IRC client ideally traditionally - but discord is much more noob-friendly than IRC
[16:23:31] <Lucifer_arma> turns out that fixing it is somewhat nontrivial
[16:23:50] <Lucifer_arma> except it's not available in the repos for ubuntu ;)
[16:24:07] <Z-Man> And we don't even know whether what we do will fix the problems.
[16:24:16] <peatcoal> well it depends what you mean by noob I guess :)
[16:24:27] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: actually, I'm pretty sure what we can do will fix the problems :)
[16:24:41] <Lucifer_arma> the problem that I've seen reported is based on DLH's timeconvert extension
[16:24:58] <peatcoal> I think if it's not easily fixable the snags will get ironed out and next time will be less chaotic
[16:25:01] <Lucifer_arma> it's a lua exception being thrown, and the timeconvert extension is what imports lua
[16:25:08] <peatcoal> without using the wiki
[16:25:50] <Lucifer_arma> but I honestly don't understand why we need lua on the wiki, so I'd revise that extension to not use it at all
[16:25:55] <Lucifer_arma> none of the other extensions use it
[16:26:32] <peatcoal> do we need the timeconvert extension?
[16:26:35] <Lucifer_arma> it's funny, like lol funny, that dlh is never happy with the language he's using, so he imports some other language to do stuff that he could've done otherwise
[16:26:44] <Lucifer_arma> peatcoal: depends.  It's there primarily to support tournaments
[16:26:46] <Z-Man> Err, yeah. I didn't know it used Lua. The wiki is right now on a shared hoster, chances are Lua is not even supported there.
[16:27:02] <peatcoal> the way it worked this time is someone said 18:00 GMT and everyone was fine with that
[16:27:03] <Lucifer_arma> it allows someone to put in a time in UTC and it'll be displayed in the user's local time zone
[16:27:24] <Z-Man> Sounds like that should be possible in PHP.
[16:27:25] <peatcoal> I think people are pretty used to googling it
[16:27:27] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, that's what TimeConvert does.  you put in 18:00GMT, and it'll tell me "1pm", because that's it for me
[16:27:44] <Lucifer_arma> it's just a convenience extension.  We can safely disable it to fix the wiki.
[16:27:50] <peatcoal> and if it's a toss up between no timezone conversion and no wiki edits.. the impact of the former is much smaller than the latter :)
[16:28:06] <peatcoal> assuming it's that simple
[16:28:22] <Lucifer_arma> the other extension dlh wrote should just be a matter of porting it to mediawiki 1.27, and then z-man can upgrade
[16:28:29] <Lucifer_arma> I've already got the skins ready to go.
[16:30:42] <Lucifer_arma> the RecentChangesOption could also be safely disabled, but it serves a pretty useful purpose, iirc
[16:31:41] <Z-Man> Of course Lua is not supported on the host. I moved the Wiki there like three years ago, nobody noticed?
[16:32:00] <Lucifer_arma> I'd suggest we quit using that extension, and when people complain about the recent changes page, we look at this list for fixes:
[16:32:02] <Lucifer_arma> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Category:Recent_Changes_extensions
[16:32:38] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: people should only notice it when they're using the TimeConvert extension.  That's why your test of one edit worked fine, but ladle edits weren't working so well.
[16:33:18] <Z-Man> I honestly don't know how the extension works, I would have assumed it does the conversion on the fly when you READ a page.
[16:33:34] <Z-Man> I would also have assumed it not using Lua, so what do I know?
[16:34:08] <Lucifer_arma> I'm not kidding, I laughed out loud when I saw Lua, thinking "He doesn't like C++ so he wants Ruby, now he doesn't like php so he's using Lua"
[16:34:16] <Lucifer_arma> he's a funny guy :)
[16:34:35] <Lucifer_arma> he'd probably find a way to work fortran into a python app
[16:34:40] <Z-Man> Well, PHP is a well known mess, so I can't blame him there.
[16:34:59] <Z-Man> And the Ruby thing was explicitly for scripting, not his own work.
[16:35:03] <Lucifer_arma> it's gotten a lot better, but he wrote that extension back when it was still a big mess
[16:35:25] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, I know, he had good reasons.  But there's no comedy if you look at good reasons.  ;)
[16:35:40] <Lucifer_arma> ironically, now I want to abandon both python and ruby and use lua for scripting
[16:35:54] <Z-Man> It is still a big mess. Most of it can't be changed because it would break stuff. The same problem C++ has in some areas.
[16:36:13] <peatcoal> Z-Man: you're needed in the EU server to promote someone to team leader
[16:36:16] <peatcoal> if you don't mind
[16:36:52] <Z-Man> Whom?
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[16:52:35] <Lucifer_arma> woohoo.  davecms installs.  Doesn't run, of course, but it installs.  :)
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[16:57:37] <Syre> lol
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[16:57:54] <Armanelgtron> ha
[16:58:16] <Syre> lol
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[20:19:17] <Lucifer_arma> holy crap, Microsoft is buying github!
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[22:32:12] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: you mean Microsoft is going to fuck over github
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[22:48:52] <Armanelgtron> hmm
[22:49:16] <Armanelgtron> @Aix_
[22:55:21] <Aix_> Microsoft is going to pollute GitHub with they adware spyware and every possible mischief to screw over open-source repositories, the BSD/MIT licensed repositories are going have most likely the least protected and going to get fucked over the worst.. GPL stuff is still safe interms of IP but theres no guarantee that Microsoft won't be sniffing around private repositories now that they have access to virtually every organisations
[22:55:21] <Aix_> massive code bases hosted in GitHub
[22:55:49] <Aix_> O well time to migrate over to gitlab I guess..
[23:05:48] <Aix_> Next you know they are probably buying out canonical or redhat.. Microsoft's open-source and we love Linux strategy basically seems like "lets buy out the big open-source assets" and then let's fuck the foss community over either by adding their crap  to it and monetizing everything or making it unusable with their screwed up licensing policies .. embrace extend extinguish
[23:06:11] <Armanelgtron> if you can't beat it, destroy it
[23:07:48] <Lucifer_arma> oddly enough, Microsoft is actually the biggest code contributor to github

Log from 2018-06-04:
[00:09:42] <luke-jr> I'd be more worried that GitHub/Microsoft will change the hosting ToS to allow Microsoft to ignore the copyleft terms
[00:10:17] <luke-jr> ie, every GPL project on GitHub loses its teeth when it comes to MS
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[01:23:07] <Lucifer_arma> that's where things get weird
[01:23:25] <Lucifer_arma> Microsoft actually has their own linux distribution, it's part of their cloud service
[01:39:21] <luke-jr> yes, I hear they disregard the GPL for it too (although arguably legally, since they aren't actually distributing the distro)
[01:51:57] <physkets> Setting V-SYNC, and then APPLYING CHHNAGES does not seem to make it take effect immediately
[01:53:14] <physkets> But restarting the program seems to fix that
[01:53:45] <physkets> Also, wrt the DISPLAY RESOLUTION, the DESKTOP setting seems to stick, but the others get reset
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[09:02:16] <Z-Man> physkets: Does setting non-desktop resolutions work the first time, when you hit apply?
[09:30:46] <physkets> Z-Man: Yes, it does work... but doesn't persist across restarts
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[12:52:10] <Lucifer_arma> physkets: what desktop environment are you using?
[12:55:07] <physkets> Lucifer_arma: KDE on laptop (i5-7200U), Gnome on desktop (i7-6700K)
[12:55:44] <physkets> the general behaviour seems to be similar on both... although I havent checked very rigorously
[13:06:38] <Lucifer_arma> are you running wayland, by any chance?
[13:07:49] <Lucifer_arma> also, setting vsync might require a restart for it to take effect.  I don't remember exactly, but I think you have to request a particular vsync when you request an opengl context.
[13:18:13] <physkets> Nope; I'm still using X11... haven't yet started using Wayland, even thought both of the DEs come with the option
[13:18:39] <physkets> Yes, with a restart, the VSync setting seems to take effect
[13:18:48] <physkets> and it persists
[13:19:48] <physkets> Lucifer_arma: This is unlike the behaviour of other video resolution settings (other than 'Desktop'), which take effect upon pressing 'Apply Chnages', but do not persist across restarts.
[13:22:17] <Lucifer_arma> as z-man pointed out, arma falls back to a known working configuration if it should fail to restore the previous configuration
[13:22:50] <Lucifer_arma> so, to verify that it's at least trying to persist across restarts, you'll need to set the resolution desired, then quit the game, then read the config file to verify that the setting you selected is there
[13:23:26] <Lucifer_arma> lemme see if I can't help with finding that
[13:27:53] <Lucifer_arma> here you go:
[13:27:55] <Lucifer_arma> cat userconfig/user_3_1_utf8.cfg | grep "ARMAGETRON_WINDOWSIZE_H"
[13:28:11] <Lucifer_arma> in a terminal, use the above command to find out the horizontal size of the window
[13:28:20] <Lucifer_arma> that's for non-fullscreen, though
[13:29:17] <Lucifer_arma> ok, change that to:
[13:29:23] <Lucifer_arma> cat userconfig/user_3_1_utf8.cfg | grep "ARMAGETRON"
[13:29:34] <Lucifer_arma> it looks like that gets you all of the resolution settings
[13:29:52] <Lucifer_arma> also, change the part that says "userconfig" to ~/.armagetronad/
[13:30:14] <Lucifer_arma> so, start up the game, change the resolution to whatever you want, then quit and run that command in a terminal
[13:40:19] <physkets> Lucifer_arma: It is n't WINDOWSIZE that is the problem... it is the ARMAGETRON_LAST_SCREENMODE_H and ARMAGETRON_LAST_SCREENMODE_W
[13:41:09] <physkets> OKay, wait, now funnily, settings seem to persist
[13:41:36] <physkets> I tried opening it a few times, and it stays at FulllHD resolutions
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[17:37:32] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1484 Fixing more instances of reliance on the undefined behavior ...
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Log from 2018-06-05:
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[17:23:02] <Lucifer_arma> I get so excited waiting for a package to be delivered that I want to sing the Wells Fargo Wagon song, and order shit I don't need just so I can wait for a package to be delivered
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[19:59:52] <Lucifer_arma> https://www.anandtech.com/show/12894/apple-deprecates-opengl-across-all-oses
[20:00:01] <Lucifer_arma> I guess we can quit worrying about supporting Apple devices now
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Log from 2018-06-06:
[01:11:51] *** Joins: physkets (~physkets@unaffiliated/physkets)
[07:04:54] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: sounds like https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=YKtlK7sn0JQ
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[12:17:11] <Z-Man> Even though they only deprecated it and the actual end of support has not been announced, even though there now is an open source bridge from Vulkan to Metal:
[12:18:09] <Z-Man> Fuck them. Let them desicate in their walled garden. I'd rather play outside in the mud.
[12:19:34] <Z-Man> (Also influenced by other recent Apple stuff, like their rejection of the Steam Link App and the program where they check apps not sold in the store and those not checked are likely to run only with scary warnings)
[12:58:27] <Armanelgtron> I'm having some issues with walls in 0.4 - I try to explode on my trail, and sometimes the wall shrinks...
[13:00:42] <Armanelgtron> even with CYCLE_RUBBER_WALL_SHRINK set to 0
[13:01:57] <Armanelgtron> if it helps, I have (SP_)WALLS_LENGTH set to 400
[13:02:41] <Armanelgtron> and would probably only work in a server because there's a delay between you hitting your wall and your death
[13:03:00] <Armanelgtron> I mean your rubber filling up all the way and your death
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[17:31:24] <Lucifer_arma> can a php file include an html file?
[17:32:00] <Lucifer_arma> like, if you do require_once("some.html"); , does it bring the file in as html, or does it expect a <?php ?> block?
[17:37:59] <Armanelgtron> I would expect it to work since php generally just echos anything outside php tags
[17:55:49] <Lucifer_arma> I would expect it to work too, and I have a vague memory of it working that way, but I really don't remember, heh
[17:56:23] <Lucifer_arma> I'm nowhere near a point where it matters, though.  I'm still generalizing my home-grown cms
[17:56:39] <Lucifer_arma> it was really specific to my web comic :/
[17:57:05] <Lucifer_arma> didn't realize how specific it was until I tried to make it generate a website that doesn't have a web comic
[18:24:05] <Lucifer_arma> I want a pot roast
[18:48:14] <Armanelgtron> okay so about that bug, it seems to only happen when I raise DEDICATED_FPS
[18:49:29] <Armanelgtron> default is 40, and on 60 or more the wall shrinks
[18:51:50] <Armanelgtron> but still only sometimes shrinks...I dunno
[18:57:49] <Lucifer_arma> if wall shrink is set to 0, it shouldn't shrink at all
[18:58:29] <Lucifer_arma> if you're playing locally and not on a server, then I have no clue what the expected behavior would be
[18:58:38] <Lucifer_arma> also, I have no clue what to do, you need Z-Man for this one ;)
[19:06:16] <Armanelgtron> okay DEDICATED_FPS at 30 seems to have mitigated the issue, but that it happens at all is just strange
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[22:29:16] <Lucifer_arma> ok, I *think* my homegrown cms is ready to start working on the main site
[22:30:14] <Lucifer_arma> or maybe not.  I still need to work in images somehow, probably with a template specifically for embedding images on a page
[22:34:47] <Lucifer_arma> I take it back, needs more work
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Log from 2018-06-07:
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[14:35:34] <Lucifer_arma> damn.  Anybody remember the five pages I said are required for a basic website?
[14:35:56] <Lucifer_arma> this was quite a few years ago when I last said anything about it, so probably nobody remembers :)
[14:36:16] <Lucifer_arma> I've got home page, contact page, about page, privacy policy
[14:36:33] <Lucifer_arma> what's the other one?
[14:38:54] <Lucifer_arma> TOS wasn't one of them
[14:47:19] <Lucifer_arma> it's possible the fifth page is "products", which varies enough from one site to the next to not include in the basic site generated by davecms
[15:59:43] <Lucifer_arma> heh.  Now I have to design a website before I can design the website
[16:00:06] <Lucifer_arma> 'cause, you know, davecms has to be able to generate a default website before it can generate the arma website
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[17:18:27] <Lucifer_arma> ok, I declare davecms ready to at least attempt to make the armagetron main site
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[19:24:48] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [mainsite] r1 Initial commit
[19:40:03] <Lucifer_arma> Do Brits really spell it "Authours"?
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[20:59:10] <Lucifer_arma> http://armagetron.sourceforge.net/old/tron.html
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[21:15:39] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: are we still using zero install?
[21:15:46] <Lucifer_arma> those links all appear to be broken...
[21:35:54] <Lucifer_arma> everything on the old website that doesn't need a new module written has been moved to the new davecms website
[21:36:07] <Lucifer_arma> well, copied, it's not like the old website's stopped working or anything
[21:55:27] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [mainsite] r5 Some cleanup, removed broken zero install links. || [mainsite] r4 Added most remaining pages. Still need the server browser (... || [mainsite] r3 Added more pages || [mainsite] r2 Added more pages
[22:13:31] <Lucifer_arma> does anybody know if there's a javascript/AJAX/whatever-client-side script that works as a server browser?
[22:13:59] <Lucifer_arma> Armanelgtron: this seems like something you'd know
[22:25:28] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [mainsite] r6 Made the config file clearly visible, removed the spurious A...
[22:43:46] <Armanelgtron> you mean one that connects directly to the master servers or one that grabs light's json and decodes it?

Log from 2018-06-08:
[00:06:09] <Lucifer_arma> I mean "one that works" regardless of its data source, as long as the data source is reliable
[00:07:22] <Lucifer_arma> Armanelgtron: the current server browser relies on a data source that isn't working anymore
[00:07:48] <Lucifer_arma> I'm moving the main site to a static-generated site, so the server browser (which is dynamic) needs to run from the web browser
[00:08:11] <Lucifer_arma> and it needs a reliable data source, whether that means contacting the master server directly or contacting someone's json file
[00:08:25] <Armanelgtron> well, https://lightron.org/BrowserFeed
[00:08:25] <Lucifer_arma> so, javascript server browser, yadayada
[00:08:41] <Armanelgtron> I guess you could also do an iframe, https://lightron.org/Browser
[00:08:58] <Armanelgtron> and no, I'm not sponsored by light :D
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[00:10:11] <Armanelgtron> but it shouldn't be too hard to rework a js browser to use the json feed
[00:10:31] <Lucifer_arma> that's fucking ugly
[00:10:44] <Lucifer_arma> and no, it shouldn't be too hard to work it into a js broswer, because it already is a js browser
[00:10:50] <Lucifer_arma> view source :)
[00:12:57] <Lucifer_arma> it appears that there is a server-side component
[00:13:04] <Lucifer_arma> damn, why isn't he in here anymore?
[00:19:28] <Armanelgtron> what, no, this one https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~epsy/+junk/arma-serverlist.js/files
[00:19:49] <Armanelgtron> shouldn't be too hard to rework into working off of light's json browser
[00:20:09] <Armanelgtron> and I might try doing that
[00:22:06] <Lucifer_arma> It also has to be integrated with davecms for the main site that I'm working on
[00:22:11] <Lucifer_arma> which isn't trivial, but not too hard
[00:22:37] <Lucifer_arma> basically, we just need a way for a .t2t file to reference scripts
[00:23:06] <Lucifer_arma> and templates updated to include those script references
[00:23:32] <Lucifer_arma> but absolute no smegging server-side scripting!
[00:23:50] <Lucifer_arma> well, unless it's a simple .php file that gives up json stuff for a browser script to read
[00:24:37] <Lucifer_arma> so, if you're not feeling the davecms integration, just make something that a few <script> tags can include, and let me worry about the integration part
[00:56:12] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [mainsite] r7 Fixed a formatting error on the About page.
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[12:30:59] <Armanelgtron> @Lucifer_arma How do you want me to send you the server list?
[12:39:54] <Armanelgtron> I didn't do anything involving integration, just branched and modified the serverjs I linked last night
[14:23:56] <Lucifer_arma> forums attachment?
[14:24:15] <Lucifer_arma> you could email it, too
[14:24:24] <Lucifer_arma> myname@gmail.com (real name)
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[16:52:42] <Armanelgtron> @Lucifer_arma sent
[17:00:59] <Lucifer_arma> ok, how do I use it?  ;)
[17:01:19] <Lucifer_arma> the readme says "just drop it into a folder and it'll work"
[17:17:06] <Armanelgtron> actually, ahng on
[17:20:09] <Armanelgtron> "The extension css is not allowed." hmm
[17:24:03] <Lucifer_arma> ?
[17:26:28] <Armanelgtron> Use this https://www.armanelgtron.tk/serverlist.css instead of the one in the folder, and you should be able to use the serverlist in document without an iframe. Look at index.html in the folder
[18:07:45] <Armanelgtron> random question - will you use https in the future for the websites?
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Log from 2018-06-09:
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[19:43:47] <Lucifer_arma> Armanelgtron: it's on my todo list, but I'm still having trouble figuring out how to configure apache reliably for https
[19:44:07] <Lucifer_arma> I want http to automatically redirect to https, and none of the configs I've worked with did that successfully.
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[22:14:35] <luke-jr> Lucifer_arma: certbot automates that

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[15:58:07] <Lucifer_arma> luke-jr: except that when I set it up awhile back on my home server, it didn't work
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[19:10:36] <Lucifer_arma> damn.  I need a recursive function now, and I hate writing those :/
[20:10:25] <Lucifer_arma> haha, avoid writing recursive function by simply writing piecemeal until it works :)
[20:10:35] <Lucifer_arma> (still not there, but now I can do it all in a while loop)
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[22:14:42] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: need help with recurssion?
[22:19:00] <Lucifer_arma> ct|kyle: nah, I found a way to write it without recursion.  Not that I need help with recursion....
[22:19:20] <Lucifer_arma> I just don't like using it.  Either you risk a situation where you get stuck in infinite recursion, or you have to write a bunch of checks to be careful
[22:19:49] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: or stack overflows :)
[22:19:55] <Lucifer_arma> truthfully, most recursive algorithms I've encountered can be written with a while loop
[22:20:18] <Lucifer_arma> in this situation, I need to recursively scan templates to load each one, with the risk that several templates will result in an infinite recursion situation
[22:20:19] <ct|kyle> that's what happend when i had too many number in my quicksort in assembly :P
[22:20:37] <Lucifer_arma> ah, yes, I wrote a bubble sort back in high school
[22:20:48] <Lucifer_arma> teacher gave me a B because I used a while loop, when he wanted us to use recursion
[22:21:21] <Lucifer_arma> he didn't say "use recursion", mind you.  After he gave me the B, THEN he told me the whole point was to learn recursion
[22:21:33] <Lucifer_arma> so I used recursion (unnecessarily) on the next three assignments, and he finally quit grading me
[22:21:49] <ct|kyle> lol
[22:21:57] <Lucifer_arma> anyway, in this situation, I solved the problem by just keeping track of a list
[22:22:16] <Lucifer_arma> by using while len(thelist) > 0: I was able to simply add to the list whenever I found new templates
[22:22:37] <Lucifer_arma> using thelist.pop(0) inside the loop to process each one in turn, and just checking to see if I'd processed it already before processing it
[22:22:37] <ct|kyle> before I really knew what recurssion was, I used it to kill subprocesses before killing tha parent
[22:22:53] <Lucifer_arma> ah shit, that's like fighting drug cartels
[22:23:06] <Lucifer_arma> sure, you can eliminate one, but there's two more waiting to take its place
[22:24:25] <Lucifer_arma> I tried to write a recursive parser back in high school
[22:24:29] <Lucifer_arma> worst...idea...ever
[22:24:42] <Lucifer_arma> but I couldn't get it to properly detect spaces in a line of typing
[22:24:55] <ct|kyle> ah
[22:24:56] <Lucifer_arma> still don't know why I couldn't do it, because I did it just fine when I was like 26
[22:25:26] <Lucifer_arma> (I took a long break from computers after high school)
[22:26:46] <Lucifer_arma> also, that was not writing a recursive parser, I just tried recursion because I was trying to write the parser while we were studying recursion
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Log from 2018-06-13:
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[10:50:08] <Armanelgtron> apparently lightron.org is down...
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[17:28:03] <Lucifer_arma> apparently it's back up
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Log from 2018-06-16:
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Log from 2018-06-17:
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Log from 2018-06-18:
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[06:43:28] <Lucifer_arma> I just love how American news sources are trying to say something like "Hey, we've got sports too, pay attention to us!"
[06:43:36] <Lucifer_arma> Like they don't get attention the other three years of the cycle
[06:43:46] <Lucifer_arma> just shut up, it's not like anybody really cares about sports anyway
[06:44:25] <Lucifer_arma> I mean, Mexico beats Germany, and nobody's surprised.  Why do you think Germany builds so many tanks?
[06:44:47] <Lucifer_arma> then Spain's like, "They used to be ours", while getting their asses kicked by Lichtenstein
[06:45:02] <Lucifer_arma> and of course, Switzerland is always neutral
[06:45:27] <Lucifer_arma> Then Brazil comes along and destroys themselves in a braziliant fire of failure
[06:45:49] <Lucifer_arma> and germany builds a few more tanks, just in case
[06:46:55] <Lucifer_arma> Russia's like, Holy crap, we got beat in the first round....by Mexico?  Then they choose the next Mexican president
[06:47:03] <Lucifer_arma> because fuck mexico
[06:48:44] <Lucifer_arma> and germany builds a few more tanks, just in case
[06:49:16] <Lucifer_arma> I swear, the finals are going to be between some African country and Germany's tanks, and the African country is going to win
[06:49:32] <Lucifer_arma> because fuck mexico
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[14:49:45] * wrtlprnft will be glad if Germany loses early enough for it to matter
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[15:45:30] <Lucifer_arma> didn't Germany already lose?  or is it double elimination?
[16:18:57] <wrtlprnft> as far as i know, the first three games for each nation are some pre-selection phase where only the best two out of each group of four get to continue
[16:19:16] <wrtlprnft> then it's single elimination of 16 games, with a game for the 3rd place, i think
[16:20:52] <wrtlprnft> so if they do badly enough in the next two games (plus the one they already lost), it's over, then there's two chances to get eliminated in a single game, then they're in the quarter finals and it doesn't really matter anymore
[16:21:26] <wrtlprnft> *half final, the part where only four teams remain
[16:22:20] <wrtlprnft> I just want things to return to normal around here and not have to hear about soccer at every opportunity
[16:48:38] <ct|kyle> wrtlprnft: but won't you still hear them compalin about how the were eliminated?
[17:25:23] <Z-Man> Yeah, but only for a couple of days.
[17:27:56] <Z-Man> Metaphorical heads would roll, that could take a couple of weeks, but it'll be in the news only and easy to ignore.
[17:28:47] <Z-Man> Me, personally, I enjoy watching a couple of Wold Cup games. Those of Germany and Portugal, obvs. And the final, whoever plays.
[17:31:04] <Z-Man> There is a big soccer tournament every year around this time. In between the big burly mens' world cup, there is the big burly mens' european cup and in between those the womens' cups.
[17:31:33] <Z-Man> And while they may not get the same amount of public attention, they are given the same attention by the TV broadcasts, which is nice.
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Log from 2018-06-19:
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[15:02:40] <peatcoal> Z-Man: did you try disabling that wiki plugin? Should we assume the Google doc again for ladle?
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[16:25:34] <Z-Man> peatcoal: Thanks for the reminder. The proper update is going to be a while. But I did disable the time conversion plugin that never should have worked on that host anyway. Just now. So do test it, for all I know, it should no longer throw errors in your face. I do know very little, though.
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[17:21:18] <peatcoal> :)
[17:21:27] <peatcoal> I'll try out an edit tomorrow, thanks
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[22:44:03] <Lucifer_arma> woohoo piano!
[22:45:20] <Lucifer_arma> of course, now that I've been trying to play it, I want to challenge an experience piano player to do two completely different things with each hand at the same time
[22:45:35] <Lucifer_arma> because I can *do* that, but getting it to happen on a piano is a bit more challenging

Log from 2018-06-20:
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Log from 2018-06-21:
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Log from 2018-06-22:
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Log from 2018-06-23:
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Log from 2018-06-24:
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[05:26:07] <Lucifer_arma> Ok, I think I should go to the ER
[05:26:45] <Lucifer_arma> I'm not "emergency emergency danger will robinson!"
[05:27:12] <Lucifer_arma> but I just spoke to someone representing the hospital ER I can walk to, and he told me they'd give me medications to stabilize me
[05:27:15] <Lucifer_arma> which I badly need
[05:28:01] <Lucifer_arma> but in case he was wrong, or I don't have the experience we just talked about, I should be ready to go back to the mentai hospital
[05:28:12] <Lucifer_arma> and I don't want to do that
[05:28:44] <Lucifer_arma> it should never be this difficult to determine if you should seek medical attention, ftr
[05:41:30] <physkets> Lucifer_arma: What's wrong?
[05:42:47] <Lucifer_arma> physkets: I'm the mental case around here :)
[05:42:56] <Lucifer_arma> major depressive disorder is the diagnosis
[05:43:10] <Lucifer_arma> I'm out of medications, and have been out for a week or so.
[05:43:53] <Lucifer_arma> The problem is this:  to get an ER to pay attention, you typically have to be suicidal.  I'm not currently suicidal, but I'm experiencing a lot of emotional distress, caused by the depression
[05:44:22] <Lucifer_arma> I need medications, they were working.  When I got out of the hospital the last time, a few weeks ago, I had prescriptions, and I took them
[05:45:09] <Lucifer_arma> now they're empty, and I'm having problems with it.  I've been looking for a psychiatrist, who could keep the meds flowing, and also provide therapy
[05:45:40] <Lucifer_arma> but I haven't found one.  So I'm out in the wind, needing something I don't have.  Leading to the question, can I go to an ER and get the medications prescribed again?
[05:45:54] <Lucifer_arma> or do I have to go to another mental hospital to get anybody to pay attention?
[05:46:20] <Lucifer_arma> I just got off the phone with a representative of the nearest ER to me who said I can go and get the prescriptions done again
[05:47:00] <Lucifer_arma> but I don't know if that'll actually happen.  I need to go down there expecting to be hospitalized again, which I don't need right now.
[05:47:27] <Lucifer_arma> but if that's what it takes, it's a lot better than doing what I've been doing.
[05:48:49] <Lucifer_arma> and, of course, I continue looking for a psychiatrist, but at this piont, there's a possiblity I have one, I just have to keep my shit together for a couple more days to answer a phone call,
[05:48:57] <Lucifer_arma> then a couple more weeks for the first appointment
[05:49:30] <Lucifer_arma> I don't know if I'll make it that far, but I *do* know that if I go to the hospital tonight, and get sent to a mental hospital, I'll miss the call.
[05:50:12] <Lucifer_arma> so, yeah, the US healthcare situation is still fucked up.  Obama didn't "fix" it, he just extended care to people who didn't have it.  I have it, and I'm still out in the wind.
[05:50:50] <Lucifer_arma> ok, physkets, your turn.  I filled the screen.  :)
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[06:03:03] <Lucifer_arma> bye Short_Dicka
[06:03:45] <Lucifer_arma> 'night physkets
[06:08:05] *** Joins: Long_Shoota (LS@cpc76132-clif11-2-0-cust623.12-4.cable.virginm.net)
[06:08:44] <physkets> Is it that hard to find a psychiatrist?
[06:09:39] <Lucifer_arma> yes.
[06:10:00] <Lucifer_arma> there aren't that many, and I'm transportation challenged
[06:10:26] <physkets> ah... I see... I didn't know that
[06:10:39] <physkets> I thought the situation in the US was better than most places
[06:10:46] <Lucifer_arma> remember, I'm US, so I live in a car-driven society.  But I can't legally drive a car, even though I own one.  So I can walk, take the bus (our bus system sucks), or ride my bike (which is a bit better than a bicycle)
[06:10:55] <Lucifer_arma> no, the situation in the US is deplorable
[06:11:09] <physkets> oh yes, I've heard that the public transport situation there is bad
[06:11:21] <Lucifer_arma> when you see pundits arguing over healthcare/public transportation, they're comparing themselves to the worst countries in the world
[06:11:45] <Lucifer_arma> well, I'm in Austin, TX, which is the worst of the worst.  You can live on public transportation in new york city
[06:12:18] <Lucifer_arma> but not here.  This is urban sprawl central, except for D/FW, which is another metropolitan area in the same state
[06:12:45] <physkets> Ya, I used to have a fried at College Station, TX... he'd tell me about that
[06:12:50] <Lucifer_arma> but psychiatrists are a bit hard to come by
[06:13:18] <Lucifer_arma> ah, yes, Texas A&M.  The rivarly between UT (located here in Austin) and A&M is legendary.
[06:13:31] <Lucifer_arma> and worth more money than establishing a decent public transportation system
[06:13:40] <physkets> hahaha
[06:13:47] <Lucifer_arma> and we've recently become quite a focus on our economic value
[06:13:56] <physkets> how so?
[06:14:09] <Lucifer_arma> and our public transportation is still oriented around transporting black people to jobs in white neighborhoods
[06:14:27] <Lucifer_arma> we're becoming competitive with silicon valley
[06:15:02] <Lucifer_arma> we call ourselves silicon hills, but that label is starting to mean something
[06:15:29] <physkets> so the black-white distinction still exists as geographical demarcations?
[06:15:41] <Lucifer_arma> in Austin, yes, absolutely
[06:15:48] <Lucifer_arma> we're basically completely segregated
[06:16:07] <physkets> ah... that is sad
[06:16:23] <Lucifer_arma> we rely on spanish-speaking immigrants to power our fast food places, and we bus them in from poorer neighborhoods
[06:16:37] <Lucifer_arma> I know, I worked with them recently, because I'm not shy about working :)
[06:17:11] <Lucifer_arma> we've got AMD, Motorola, Freescale, and Oracle all as significant powers here
[06:17:18] <Lucifer_arma> we also have a secondary presence from Apple
[06:17:50] <Lucifer_arma> and yeah, the segration is terrible
[06:18:04] <Lucifer_arma> my wife, who is mixed hispanic/white, has encountered it a bit
[06:18:36] <Lucifer_arma> like, she's a manager at Academy (big sporting goods store), and people pass her up for resolving problems because they think only a white person can solve their problems
[06:18:54] <Lucifer_arma> and she's good at her job, and her ethnic background shouldn't be a part of it
[06:18:58] <Lucifer_arma> but it is
[06:19:02] <physkets> hmmm...
[06:19:05] <Lucifer_arma> it was worse when we were in Kansas
[06:19:38] <Lucifer_arma> and I need my not-white wife's health insurance to find a psychiatrist :)
[06:19:49] <Lucifer_arma> also, I love the crap out of my wife.
[06:20:31] <Lucifer_arma> she's a beautiful person.  She's up there in my life with the likes of Z-man.
[06:20:31] <physkets> what proportions of people of races/nationalities other than black/whitehispanic exist there?
[06:20:43] <physkets> that is very nice :)
[06:21:05] <Lucifer_arma> as a state capital, we're still majority white
[06:21:26] <Lucifer_arma> we have a growing asian presence, and it looks like we're starting our own Chinatown
[06:21:54] <Lucifer_arma> we have a strong Indian presence, which I appreciate, because they have the best spices
[06:22:11] <Lucifer_arma> also, as a people, they're incredibly open, and white people aren't that open
[06:22:22] <Lucifer_arma> I'm a white guy, if you didn't know that already.
[06:23:03] <Lucifer_arma> we've always had a solid hispanic presence, which has been growing, and is a Good Thing
[06:23:29] <Lucifer_arma> I just dont' get white supremicists who are complaining about being displaced.  I've never once met a hispanic person who thought I shouldn't be able to get a job.
[06:23:46] <Lucifer_arma> but I've met white people who thought hispanic people shouldn't be allowed to work.
[06:24:17] <Lucifer_arma> so I'm curious, physkets, where are you?  What's your national/ethnic background?
[06:25:56] <physkets> I'm in&from India
[06:26:11] <Lucifer_arma> what part?  out of curiosity....
[06:26:29] <physkets> a city by the name of Hyderabad
[06:26:59] <Lucifer_arma> so not calcutta or delhi :)
[06:27:12] <physkets> nope... this is in the south of the country
[06:27:31] <Lucifer_arma> ok, I worked for an Indian lady, who was also Moslem.  Do you have a particular religious affiliation?
[06:27:46] <physkets> nopes... irrelegious
[06:28:08] <physkets> How about you?
[06:28:11] <Lucifer_arma> how common is that?  Over here in the white world, we assume Indians are very religious, but have no idea what religion that is.
[06:28:30] <Lucifer_arma> I'm an atheist, unless luke-jr asks, in which case I worship Satan.
[06:28:41] <physkets> haha
[06:28:54] <physkets> Hinduism is a fairly common religion, closely followed by Islam
[06:29:11] <physkets> and atheists are sligtly rare, but a growing (I hope)
[06:29:33] <Lucifer_arma> One of the people I've met that demands my respect is actually an older practicioner of hinduism
[06:30:18] <Lucifer_arma> also, my former boss, she was awesome.  If she could represent Islam to the US, we'd quit bombing moslems.  That's how awesome she is.
[06:30:44] <physkets> thing is, most religious people are peacefull. It is the few that believe that everyone must hold the same faith as them, that are the problem
[06:30:46] <Lucifer_arma> so, are you "out" as an atheist?
[06:31:00] <Lucifer_arma> that's totally true.
[06:31:32] <Lucifer_arma> I'm curious, because I came out as an atheist in a religiously repressed town, Christianity being the religion.
[06:31:33] <physkets> to my family? Well, my parents, yes... but not further than that, I think
[06:31:56] <physkets> I'm not sure if the extended family knows
[06:32:03] <Lucifer_arma> are you afraid of a backlash, or do you know there's a backlash and you just don't want to deal with it?
[06:32:04] <physkets> my grandmother has suspiscions
[06:32:19] <physkets> oh nono... no chances of any backlash
[06:32:29] <Lucifer_arma> I took a lot of shit, from family (immediate, even!) and the other people in the town
[06:32:37] <physkets> ah :(
[06:32:51] <Lucifer_arma> I came by my name honestly :)
[06:32:56] <physkets> hahaha
[06:33:38] <physkets> my family may not like it,
[06:33:40] <Lucifer_arma> my parents were split.  It was awesome.
[06:34:02] <physkets> but they'll accept that they can't do anything about it
[06:34:09] <Lucifer_arma> my mom invited the pastor over to talk me out of it, and my dad was like "If that's what he believes, and he's willing to stand by it, he's my kid"
[06:34:27] <physkets> hahaha that is a nice father
[06:34:31] <Lucifer_arma> the pastor came over and was like "Hey, I have atheist friends, can we still be friends?"
[06:34:35] <Lucifer_arma> my mo was pissed
[06:34:39] <physkets> :D
[06:34:40] <Lucifer_arma> she's still pissed
[06:34:43] <Lucifer_arma> fuck her
[06:35:13] <Lucifer_arma> she's trying to cling to a christian kid in the family, and there aren't any left
[06:35:15] <physkets> It is sad the amout of brainwashing that religion performs
[06:35:28] <Lucifer_arma> yes, brainwashing is a big problem
[06:35:42] <Lucifer_arma> I raised my own kids to choose for themselves
[06:36:03] <Lucifer_arma> my oldest has chosen to be Wicca.  And it's still a choice that is probably a rebellion against her parents.
[06:36:25] <Lucifer_arma> I mean, when I was a kid, you could say "atheist" and you're rebelling.  How do you rebel against atheist parents?
[06:36:33] <physkets> whoa... Wicca is all that witchcraft stuff, no?
[06:36:47] <physkets> haha; true
[06:36:54] <Lucifer_arma> yes, that's what it is.  It's another made-up religion.
[06:37:12] <Lucifer_arma> so what do you do when you want to rebel against your parents, but your parents have no religion?
[06:37:30] <Lucifer_arma> So we didn't take Wicca seriously, and we have experience with Wicca, and paganism.
[06:37:31] <physkets> I think atheism is the ground state, and eventually, all will fall
[06:37:41] <Lucifer_arma> actually, have you seen the movie Dragnet?
[06:38:04] <physkets> I'm not sure; if I had atheist parents, then religion wouldn't even be anything I thought about much
[06:38:16] <physkets> Nope... what's the movie about?
[06:38:20] <Lucifer_arma> my two other kids don't care about religion
[06:38:40] <Lucifer_arma> ok, the movie Dragnet is from the '80s, and it was one of those reboot movies
[06:39:07] <Lucifer_arma> they took a crime drama TV series and made a comedy movie, starring Dan Aykroyd and Tom Hanks
[06:39:36] <physkets> I'll look it up
[06:39:44] <Lucifer_arma> at some point in the movie, they (Dan Aykroyd and Tom Hanks) go undercover to a meeting of the PAGANS
[06:40:03] <Lucifer_arma> and PAGAIN stands for "People against goodness and normalcy" or something like that
[06:40:16] <Lucifer_arma> ok, so I came out at 12 as an atheist, and took a lot of shit for it
[06:40:21] <physkets> hahah, oh, I thought elemental worship
[06:40:42] <Lucifer_arma> my oldest brother also moved away from christianity, and ended up with his second Pagain chick (he's married to her now)
[06:41:01] <Lucifer_arma> I found myself living with them, but they were a bit insecure about religion, and they had to push it.
[06:41:16] <physkets> ah... 12? that is early...
[06:41:29] <Lucifer_arma> and for some dumb reason, with my history of being a practicing satanist, and leaving the christian church, they had no idea of any of this
[06:41:57] <Lucifer_arma> so my brother was pushing paganism to me.  Not evangelical, just "Hey, this is who I am, you need to accept it"
[06:42:09] <Lucifer_arma> and at some point, he demanded I know what being pagain is
[06:42:20] <physkets> okay, and what was it?
[06:42:29] <Lucifer_arma> so I said, of course, I know what pagans are, they're "People against goodness and normalcy"
[06:42:38] <physkets> :D
[06:42:40] <Lucifer_arma> and his almost-wife lost her shit
[06:42:44] <Lucifer_arma> it was hilarious
[06:42:59] <physkets> hahahaha
[06:43:02] <Lucifer_arma> my brother had seen the movie, so he knew what I was referencing
[06:43:22] <Lucifer_arma> she's hated my guts ever since, even though he finally got her to see the movie
[06:43:29] <Lucifer_arma> some people can't take a joke
[06:43:50] <physkets> true
[06:43:52] <Lucifer_arma> nor can they respect that *I* paved the way for them to have non-christian beliefs.  I took ALL of the shit.
[06:44:01] <Lucifer_arma> fuck them.  :)
[06:44:28] <Lucifer_arma> I'll keep being Lucifer and getting accused of all sorts of things, like nuking luke-jr's cities
[06:45:00] <Lucifer_arma> (luke-jr is the oppositie of me, he's a fundamentalist catholic, and we've often enjoyed playing games together)
[06:45:54] <Lucifer_arma> I think I have an easier time than you, because you're not open to your whole faimily
[06:46:06] <Lucifer_arma> but at the same time, I'm open to my whole family, and none of them want to talk to me
[06:46:19] <Lucifer_arma> but I live free
[06:46:46] <physkets> I suppose so...
[06:46:51] <Lucifer_arma> except, you know, the beginnign of this conversation, where I need a psychiatrist and some medications, but other than that, I'm fucking free!
[06:47:02] <physkets> :)
[06:47:29] <physkets> I do get asked by my mother, every now and then to visit a temple;
[06:47:34] <physkets> but I firmly refuse
[06:48:03] <physkets> even thought she knows, she can't quite accept it, and hopes that I'll "return"
[06:48:36] <physkets> haven't quite been able to convey that that isn't going to happen
[06:48:44] <Lucifer_arma> that never goes away, so whether or not you accept it actually depends on how much it interferes with your life
[06:49:14] <Lucifer_arma> I'd accept going to church because mom asked, but I also don't see her very often (like every couple of years, before we quit talking)
[06:49:36] <Lucifer_arma> I went to church because my former mother-in-law asked it, but it was for serious family stuff
[06:49:44] <Lucifer_arma> mormon stuff
[06:50:11] <Lucifer_arma> my current mother-in-law is a closeted roman catholic
[06:50:25] <Lucifer_arma> she'd like us to show up for mass and confession, but she knows we won't
[06:50:35] <Lucifer_arma> so she tries to guide us to avoiding "sin"
[06:51:04] <Lucifer_arma> but we're better at doing that than she is, becuase we don't have to deal with the complex moral code that allows Christians to separate families at the border
[06:51:14] <Lucifer_arma> we can easily say "That's bullshit!"
[06:51:23] <Lucifer_arma> we don't need a holy book to tell us that
[06:51:56] <physkets> ya...
[06:52:10] <Lucifer_arma> also, we're in Texas and hating that policy
[06:52:44] <Lucifer_arma> I don't even want to call it "policy", I want to get a fucking AR-15 and shoot the fuck out of politicians
[06:53:55] <Lucifer_arma> where are the second amendment nuts saying we should overthrow a totalitarian government?  Oh wait, they're SUPPORTING this policy?
[06:54:03] <Lucifer_arma> fuck them.  Let's kill them too.
[06:54:08] <Lucifer_arma> that's how I feel, anyway.
[06:55:10] <Lucifer_arma> so, don't be surprised, youv'e met and American who's willing to commit genocide.  No surprise there, nothing to see, please move on.
[06:56:31] <physkets> everyone feels that way about something everyonce in a while
[06:56:57] <Lucifer_arma> true, but I live in a country where we shouldn't ever feel that way
[06:57:28] <Lucifer_arma> or at least, that's what I thought this country was all about.  You know, back when my dad gave his life in service of this country, I thought we shouldn't feel that way.
[06:57:57] <Lucifer_arma> my country has betrayed me
[06:59:12] <Lucifer_arma> I'm no Timathy McVeigh.  I'm not going out to start a violent revolution.
[06:59:29] <Lucifer_arma> I think we need one, but I don't like the prospects.  I think we should stick to our elections.
[07:00:24] <Lucifer_arma> anyway, I'm going to continue looking for a pyschiatrist, and I want to get cleaned up in case I get sent to a mental hospital again
[07:00:52] <Lucifer_arma> I'm going to take the chance, because I need help.  I have really enjoyed talking to you, and I really appreciate this cnoversation
[07:05:14] <physkets> :)
[07:05:29] <physkets> It is nice talking to you.
[12:42:35] <Lucifer_arma> yay, the er gave me more prescriptions
[12:42:54] <Lucifer_arma> would have been nice NOT to spend eight hours there plugged into machines, but who's complaining (besides me)?
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[13:33:50] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [armagetron.py] r2 turn into Python package... || [armagetron.py] r1 add initial files...
[13:40:47] <Lucifer_arma> what's armagetron.py?
[14:08:26] *** Quits: physkets (~physkets@unaffiliated/physkets) (Quit: physkets)
[15:10:40] <wrtlprnft> armagetron.py is a small Python library for processing the ladderlog and chat commands from an Armagetron Advanced server.
[15:11:05] <wrtlprnft> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~fkmclane/armagetronad/armagetron.py/files
[15:14:18] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, I looked at it up while I was at the pharmacy
[15:14:25] <Lucifer_arma> and here I was hoping someone had started a panda3d port
[15:15:12] <Lucifer_arma> but now I have prescriptions, and I rode my bike, so the motor got good and hot and ran fine
[15:15:21] <Lucifer_arma> which is good because it sat for so long
[15:15:45] <wrtlprnft> ah, you mean an actual motor
[15:15:56] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, there's an 80cc two-stroke motor on my bicycle
[15:16:15] <wrtlprnft> does it make armagetron sounds?
[15:16:18] <Lucifer_arma> it's a single speed bike, so it maxes out around 20mph, which is the legal limit before it's considered a motorcycle and subject to extra regulation
[15:16:27] <Lucifer_arma> nah, but it'd be cool if it did :)
[15:16:41] <Lucifer_arma> I should probably sample the motor from that bike and see about moving it to the arma engine sound
[15:17:01] <Lucifer_arma> I've got a cool lighting kit that makes it look really badass at night
[15:17:30] <Lucifer_arma> green frame, cruiser frame even, with green LEDs wrapped around the frame (plus headlights and a tail light, of course)
[15:17:39] <wrtlprnft> but with doppler effect and all, very realistic for a ~30 km/h object ;-)
[15:17:44] <Lucifer_arma> what I really need is a cooler helmet than the bicycle helmet I wear
[15:18:03] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, but we have to change to openAL to get the doppler effect
[15:18:23] <Lucifer_arma> or write it ourselves, and right now the sound mixing code is suffering digital distortion when you put two cycle engine sounds close to each other
[15:18:41] <wrtlprnft> been a long time, but I always thought we had that already
[15:18:50] <Lucifer_arma> nah, still on sdl_mixer
[15:19:07] <wrtlprnft> at least the sound gets modulated in some fashion and I'm really bad at telling what I'm hearing
[15:19:09] <Lucifer_arma> I crapped out before finishing the soundpack resource even
[15:19:33] <Lucifer_arma> the digital distortion is noticeable.  When you encounter someone on the grid complaining, that's the problem they're complaining about
[15:20:31] <wrtlprnft> try putting flashing blue lights on your bike, that should help with traffic
[15:20:49] <Lucifer_arma> I haven't had traffic problems, to be honest.
[15:20:57] <Lucifer_arma> Austin's gotten a lot better at putting in bike lanes and such
[15:21:32] <Lucifer_arma> I usually flash the red tail light
[15:21:48] <Lucifer_arma> the front lights I don't flash because our street lighting sucks and I actually need the headlights to see road hazards and driveways and stuff
[15:23:37] <wrtlprnft> if my bike did anything like what you describe, I would probably get noticed by police
[15:24:14] <wrtlprnft> even though my bike doesn't have a motor and Munich is moving very slowly in terms of being bike-friendly, if at all
[15:24:31] <Lucifer_arma> my bike's legal
[15:24:39] <wrtlprnft> not in germany, it's not ;-)
[15:24:55] <Lucifer_arma> as long as it doesn't go faster than 20mph without pedal assist, it's classed as a bicycle, and subject to the same bicycle laws
[15:25:10] <Lucifer_arma> except for trails that say "no motorized vehicles allowed".  My bike's not allowed on those trails.
[15:25:24] <wrtlprnft> the last “improvement” was some singapore company dumping thousands of crappy rentable bikes everywhere
[15:25:28] <Lucifer_arma> and yeah, I realize this is texas law, but I don't know of a state that actually bans my bike
[15:25:37] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, we had that too
[15:25:45] <Lucifer_arma> then we had the wave of rentable electric scooters
[15:26:03] <Lucifer_arma> probably the same company doing it that you had ;)
[15:26:21] <wrtlprnft> if it was from singapore and not china, then probably yes
[15:26:23] <Lucifer_arma> the electric scooters I've seen aren't legal, though
[15:26:45] <wrtlprnft> how often do they catch fire?
[15:26:48] <Lucifer_arma> they don't have pedals, so they're supposed to be classed as motorcycles, which require safety inspection, liability insurance, registration, and oh yeah a license
[15:27:04] <Lucifer_arma> I don't know.  I built a gas moped, not an electric scooter.  :)
[15:27:31] <Lucifer_arma> $65 for an $80 bike (wife's discount at the sporting goods store where she works), then a $100 kit from Amazon
[15:27:34] <wrtlprnft> probably better in terms of fire safety
[15:27:45] <Lucifer_arma> probably,  air cooled.
[15:28:05] <Lucifer_arma> it's *not* legal for me to park it in my living room, right in front of the fire place, but there's no other place in these apartments I can put it without risking having it stolen
[15:28:45] <wrtlprnft> I've never seen an apartment with a fire place
[15:28:46] <Lucifer_arma> so I park it in the living room and put the oil-and-gas mixture on the balcony, and my leasing manager trusts me to take care of this stuff because I used to be a mechanic :)
[15:29:11] <Lucifer_arma> fireplaces are standard here, and mostly decorative, because, well, it's Texas.  I live in the NW corner of the hottest region on the planet.
[15:29:41] <Lucifer_arma> (measured in terms of Joules/meter^3)
[15:29:42] <wrtlprnft> which probably means than when it actually gets cold, you have crappy insulation and really need the fireplace
[15:30:02] <Lucifer_arma> crappy insulation, yes, but it rarely drops below 40F here
[15:30:17] <wrtlprnft> let me look that up real quick
[15:30:19] <Lucifer_arma> and with climate change, we're hitting 100+F most summer days, spring, and some fall days
[15:30:27] <Lucifer_arma> I'd guess around 6C
[15:30:40] <wrtlprnft> 4.4, impressive
[15:30:42] <Lucifer_arma> 100F is around 35C
[15:30:56] <wrtlprnft> and -50 is around -50, that's the two points I know
[15:31:17] <Lucifer_arma> if I'd have done the shorthand, I'd have gotten 4C :)
[15:31:32] <Lucifer_arma> you subtract 32, then divide by two to get celsius
[15:31:43] <Lucifer_arma> the actual ratio is 9/5
[15:32:49] <Lucifer_arma> and if climate change shuts down the gulf stream (that's it, right?) then y'all are going to be covered in glaciers
[15:32:53] <wrtlprnft> I'll probably never remember that. But I do know the ratio for inches, because that's more relevant for me
[15:33:19] <wrtlprnft> yeah, that's one theory
[15:33:24] <Lucifer_arma> I'll be burning up in 40C weather, and y'all will be lucky to go over 0C
[15:33:35] <wrtlprnft> so the netherlands can be under ice instead of under water
[15:33:48] <Lucifer_arma> at least they won't have to build new barriers :)
[15:34:01] <Lucifer_arma> meanwhile, we might actually get hurricanes hitting us, heh
[15:34:19] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [armagetron.py] r3 fix version number...
[15:34:33] <Lucifer_arma> Austin is shielded from hurricanes right now, due to a high pressure zone that sets in before hurricane season starts
[15:34:39] <Lucifer_arma> but once that's disrupted, we're fucked
[15:35:17] <Lucifer_arma> I'm thinking I want to move my family to New Mexico, but it's awefully tempting to buy shit property out in Bastrop
[15:35:29] <Lucifer_arma> because I could hand it down to my kids as a coastal property worth a shit-ton of money
[15:35:40] <wrtlprnft> isn't austin a bit too far from the coast?
[15:35:57] <Lucifer_arma> the worst case scenarios have the ocean rising enough to make Austin a coastal city
[15:36:12] <Lucifer_arma> not a deep water port, of course, but still coastal
[15:36:18] <wrtlprnft> then you can live in that city whose name I'll never be able to spell correctly
[15:36:32] <Lucifer_arma> which city is that?
[15:36:40] <Lucifer_arma> Albuquerque?
[15:36:59] <wrtlprnft> probably ;-)
[15:37:22] <Lucifer_arma> if we decide to leave Texas due to climate change, I'm inclined to go to either Santa Fe or Cloudcroft, or somewhere in the Tularosa basin
[15:37:36] <Lucifer_arma> that area will become prime property because it's protected from the rising sea levels
[15:37:38] <wrtlprnft> then one with the weird al song and breaking bad
[15:37:50] <Lucifer_arma> That's albuquerque
[15:37:57] <Lucifer_arma> same one that Bugs Bunny should've turned left at
[15:38:20] <Lucifer_arma> it's a beautiful city.  It has a historic downtown area with all sorts of spanish construction from when it was just a mission
[15:38:50] <Lucifer_arma> and UNM is a beautiful university.  More so than UT.
[15:39:08] <Lucifer_arma> not that my wife would ever admit that, being an Austin native and all ;)
[15:39:30] <Lucifer_arma> but Santa Fe is easily the most beautiful city I've ever seen
[15:39:52] * wrtlprnft is just looking at a map, and is amazed by gila national forest being all pixelated and cleanly cut off at the boarder
[15:39:56] <Lucifer_arma> and I've visited most of the major cities west of the mississippi river
[15:40:35] <Lucifer_arma> heh, yeah, the national forest areas are kind of poorly covered by google maps
[15:41:04] <wrtlprnft> so it's not really cut off? I wouldn't have actually been that surprised
[15:41:09] <Lucifer_arma> that may be government intervention, though.  New Mexico's second most important industry is the military, so there's no telling what's in those forests.
[15:41:28] <Lucifer_arma> it may be cut off right now, there were some wildfires that went through that area
[15:41:43] <Lucifer_arma> burned right into Albq proper
[15:41:51] <Lucifer_arma> y'know, climate change
[15:42:07] <Lucifer_arma> less rainfall in the deserts means drier trees, which means more fires
[15:42:26] <Lucifer_arma> have I mentioned that there's an entire half of this country that are raving idiots for denying climate change?
[15:42:42] <Lucifer_arma> they're determined to fuck up the entire world, and there's not a damn thing I can do about it except to keep voting
[15:42:47] <wrtlprnft> aren't they the same one sthat live in this area?
[15:42:53] <Lucifer_arma> yep, same ones
[15:43:10] <Lucifer_arma> idiots
[15:43:23] <Lucifer_arma> although, NM went for Obama both times, I think
[15:43:38] <Lucifer_arma> but they definitely went for Trump, those fucking assholes
[15:44:11] <Lucifer_arma> I love my country, but I really don't like a lot of people in it, heh.
[15:44:20] <Lucifer_arma> I also hate how we pick our presidents.
[15:44:26] <wrtlprnft> well, he's certainly more entertaining than obama was
[15:44:38] <Lucifer_arma> at this point, if Macron and Merkel need a job, I'd rather put them in charge
[15:44:53] <Lucifer_arma> he's the fucking president, he's not supposed to be entertaining, he's supposed to do his fucking job
[15:45:27] <Lucifer_arma> as much as I hated Bush being president, I kind of wish he could be president again now
[15:45:53] <Lucifer_arma> at least he did his job, even if I didn't like how he did it
[15:46:01] <wrtlprnft> let's see if trump gets a second term
[15:46:28] <wrtlprnft> in that case, I'll know that at least around 50 % of americans are incapable of learning
[15:46:31] <Lucifer_arma> the problem is the way the system works, it favors the sitting president.  It's really hard to unseat the sitting president.
[15:46:49] <wrtlprnft> but it has happened before
[15:46:52] <Lucifer_arma> we call it the Bully Pulpit.
[15:46:58] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, Clinton unseated the first Bush
[15:47:05] <Lucifer_arma> Reagen unseated Carter
[15:47:34] <wrtlprnft> and you also managed to kill two presidents if I remember correctly
[15:47:34] <Lucifer_arma> but even with popular support going against the Iraq war, John Kerry couldn't take out the second Bush
[15:48:08] <Lucifer_arma> and Clinton should've won, but she ran such a shitty campaign, which is what I was worried about
[15:48:22] <Lucifer_arma> she got taken down by Obama during the '08 primaries because she ran a shitty campaign
[15:48:48] <Lucifer_arma> how in the hell do you get the single most qualified individual to run for president that hasn't actually served as president, and she loses to that jackass from the Apprentice?
[15:49:21] <wrtlprnft> run a shitty campaign?
[15:49:24] <Lucifer_arma> if you think I'm still angry about that, you'd be right
[15:49:28] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, that's what she did
[15:49:42] <Lucifer_arma> she took for granted a number of states that all ended up going for Trump
[15:49:52] <Lucifer_arma> another thing I want to complain about.  We're not done fighting the civil war.
[15:50:16] <Lucifer_arma> slavery isn't truly over.  Not when we give every state, regardless of size, two senators.  That was a compromise made to appease slave states in 1780.
[15:50:24] <Lucifer_arma> and we're still living with the consequences of that compromise.
[15:50:54] <Lucifer_arma> so we still haven't completely repealed slavery
[15:51:15] <Lucifer_arma> and we won't, not until we fix the senate
[15:51:18] <wrtlprnft> is that even a good deal for the former slave states?
[15:51:34] <Lucifer_arma> most of them would get more representation than they have now
[15:51:56] <wrtlprnft> so it's a bad deal, that makes more sense
[15:51:57] <Lucifer_arma> but big states like california and Texas would get a LOT more representation than they have now
[15:52:30] <Lucifer_arma> short of rewriting the senate, the only way we can "fix" it is to break down the big states into smaller states
[15:52:49] <wrtlprnft> and while you're at it, you could remove that all-or-nothing rule
[15:52:59] <Lucifer_arma> which california's trying to do, but their odds aren't great
[15:53:10] <Lucifer_arma> a lot of liberal texans want to break up Texas so we can send more democrats to the senate
[15:53:18] <Lucifer_arma> I'm one of them :)
[15:53:34] <Lucifer_arma> the all-or-nothing rule is by state.  There are a few states that don't do that.
[15:53:48] <wrtlprnft> so, just break it into 50 pieces and you'll always have majority
[15:54:11] <Lucifer_arma> also, there's the interstate compact, where states pass laws saying that their electoral college votes go to the winner of the popular vote, and when enough states pass it to equal 270 votes, it goes into effect
[15:54:40] <Lucifer_arma> I think right now they only have like 160 votes, so it's not in effect yet
[15:55:18] <Lucifer_arma> heh, it's gotta get through congress still
[15:55:38] <Lucifer_arma> the process is basically pass a state constitutional amendment making it happen, then send it to Congress to approve.
[15:56:00] <Lucifer_arma> when/if congress approves, then it takes effect.  And congress has plenty of reason to not approve any such measure.
[15:56:19] <Lucifer_arma> if california breaks up, republicans will gain two senators from there, but democrats will gain four
[15:56:48] <Lucifer_arma> basically, the only way congress would approve california breaking up is if texas also breaks up, in a way that balances the senate
[15:57:14] <Lucifer_arma> and the will isn't here to do that, because most of the population of Texas is in liberal areas, but we're still outnumbered slightly by conservatives
[15:57:23] <Lucifer_arma> Texas is a non-voting blue state
[15:57:57] <Lucifer_arma> but if we broke up into four states, you'd see DFW going into one, Austin and Houston going into another, and El Paso going into a third, with south texas getting its own state
[15:58:17] <Lucifer_arma> that would result in 6 likely democrat senators, and there's no way congress is going to approve that
[15:58:42] <wrtlprnft> it would definitely be interesting… hasn't the US had 50 states for basically forever?
[15:58:52] <Lucifer_arma> nah, since the 60s, I believe
[15:59:01] <Lucifer_arma> Alaska and Hawaii were the last two states admitted
[15:59:18] <Lucifer_arma> and both were after WWII.  The famous Pearl Harbor attack happened before Hawaii was a state.
[15:59:45] <wrtlprnft> so during WWII, the american flag hat fewer stars?
[15:59:52] <Lucifer_arma> but if we accepted both Puerto Rico and Washington DC as states (as both have tried to make happen), that'd send four likely democrat senators to congress
[15:59:59] <Lucifer_arma> yep, it had 48.
[16:00:20] <Lucifer_arma> so all those WWII movies that show a 50-star flag aren't historically accurate :)
[16:00:57] <wrtlprnft> huh, I really didn't know that it changed that often
[16:01:08] <Lucifer_arma> and puerto rico badly needs to become a state, and have the federal government assume their debt
[16:01:13] <Lucifer_arma> they're fucked otherwise
[16:01:15] <wrtlprnft> I've always figured that the flag came into being after all states had joined
[16:01:22] <Lucifer_arma> nah
[16:01:30] <Lucifer_arma> it started with 13 stars
[16:01:47] <Lucifer_arma> even though there were only 12 colonies that rebelled against Britain
[16:01:57] <wrtlprnft> and sometimes it hatds it stars arranged in the shape of a star, it seems
[16:01:58] <Lucifer_arma> one of those colonies split up during ratification of the new constitution, iirc.
[16:02:08] <Lucifer_arma> circle, initially
[16:03:01] <wrtlprnft> they even changed the number of stripes temporarily?
[16:03:15] <Lucifer_arma> the actual confederate flag, with the stars and bars but a mostly white flag (representing white supremacy, but often taken as a flag of surrender :)  ) had stars for each confederate state
[16:03:27] <Lucifer_arma> I don't remember about the stripes.  I thought there were always 13 stripes
[16:03:44] <wrtlprnft> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_flag#Historical_progression_of_designs
[16:03:45] <Lucifer_arma> the stripes are supposed to represent the original 13 states
[16:05:01] <Lucifer_arma> I see what you mean by different star patterns
[16:05:06] <Lucifer_arma> I'm still counting thirteen stripes
[16:05:14] <wrtlprnft> third row
[16:05:23] <wrtlprnft> May 1, 1795 – July 3, 1818
[16:06:00] <Lucifer_arma> stripes matches stars in that row
[16:07:23] <Lucifer_arma> we are in the longest period since new states have been admitted, I'm noticing
[16:07:48] <Lucifer_arma> which is really too bad.  We need to fix the obvious flaws in our constitution, and then make it possible for Canada and Mexico to join
[16:07:51] <wrtlprnft> it's explained in the article
[16:07:55] <Lucifer_arma> forget Nafta, let's just all become one country
[16:08:33] <wrtlprnft> they initially had both stars and stripes representing states, and then stopped changing the flag altogether for fear of too many stripes
[16:08:47] <wrtlprnft> and then the started using that colonies-states scheme
[16:09:21] <wrtlprnft> *they
[16:10:49] <Lucifer_arma> I see that
[16:10:52] <Lucifer_arma> that's interesting
[16:11:07] <Lucifer_arma> it's not terribly interesting, I mean, it's just a flag, after all ;)
[16:11:21] <Lucifer_arma> I wonder what's the longest flag still in use today?
[16:11:40] <Lucifer_arma> I'd consider the american flag from the first stars and bars to be continuous
[16:12:06] <Lucifer_arma> it's probably someone like the netherlands, heh
[16:12:55] <wrtlprnft> maybe the white flag is not too far off
[16:13:55] <Lucifer_arma> looks like it's Denmark
[16:14:53] <Lucifer_arma> I take it back, it looks like it's Scotland
[16:16:36] <Lucifer_arma> no, it's still denmark.  I guess Scotland changed their flag at some point?
[16:19:38] <wrtlprnft> wikipedia says denmark, so that must be right
[16:21:01] <Lucifer_arma> I found a different page, but it cites the Guinness book of world records
[16:21:10] <Lucifer_arma> which is *never* wrong, except for when it is.
[16:24:28] <Lucifer_arma> here's a random question for you, wrtlprnft, and any other german who cares to answer
[16:24:45] <Lucifer_arma> are y'all using the same constitution as the weimar republic, or did you get a new constitution after WWII?
[16:25:30] <wrtlprnft> I'm pretty sure it's new
[16:26:33] <Lucifer_arma> ok, I'm a look it up.  :)
[16:32:20] <Lucifer_arma> yep, new one
[16:32:30] <Lucifer_arma> ratified/approved in 1948, looks like
[16:32:52] <Lucifer_arma> it doesn't look like the US/UK/France forced a particular constitution, though, which is kind of odd for the US to not do
[16:33:07] <Lucifer_arma> since, you know, we have a solid history of occupying countries and then dictating their constitutions to them
[16:36:44] <Lucifer_arma> well that's interesting.  Apparently y'all have an explicit right to overthrow your government if there's no other way to fix it when it's broken
[16:38:33] <Lucifer_arma> hah, and we have the right to overthrow the Texas government, but not the US government
[16:39:30] <Lucifer_arma> maybe we should get a bunch of liberals with assault rifles to storm the governor's mansion and the capitol building while the legislation is in session and declare the government void
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[18:04:57] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [armagetron.py] r4 rename doc.html to api.html
[18:31:10] <ct|kyle> dang, i missed a good religion talk. I wanted to add in base reality vs AI (westworld mix to it)
[19:22:01] <Lucifer_arma> I finally learned the name of the piece called Fur Elise
[19:22:20] <Lucifer_arma> I mean, I already knew the name, I just finally can place the tune with the name
[19:22:29] <Lucifer_arma> I'd hum it, but humming doesn't really work in irc
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[21:05:43] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [armagetron.py] r5 use semantic html
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[19:52:06] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: ping
[20:07:34] <Lucifer_arma> ct|kyle: pong
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[22:01:33] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: have you done any electrical system diagnostics on cars?
[22:02:45] <ct|kyle> i have pne that the speed showa 120(max) when in park and won't go into reverse. already replaced speed sensor on it
[22:18:27] <Lucifer_arma> pne?
[22:18:52] <Lucifer_arma> oh, you meant "one", heh
[22:19:30] <Lucifer_arma> does the shifter unlock so you can move it to reverse?
[22:22:15] <Lucifer_arma> ct|kyle: get something like this https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Diagnostic-Scanner-Engine-Reader/dp/B0051CAE1C
[22:22:29] <Lucifer_arma> use it to check the speed being reported by the transmission
[22:23:05] <Lucifer_arma> if the shifter isn't coming unlocked, it's probably one of the brake sensors at the pedal
[22:23:31] <Lucifer_arma> there's one or two, where if there's two, one controls the brake lights and the other the transmission lock that keeps it in park
[22:24:19] <Lucifer_arma> it's odd to show 120(max) on a car that can probably go faster than 120, so that's indicating to me the gauge problem is likely coincidental to the shifting problem
[22:27:12] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: gague is showing 138, but it will bounce all around, we replaced that one and it still is doing the same thing
[22:27:31] <ct|kyle> torque with adapter shows 138*
[22:28:38] <ct|kyle> the shifter moves, but it won't kick into reverse because it thinks the car is going 138 mph
[22:29:01] <ct|kyle> put it in drive and it runs at the wrong gears
[22:29:20] <Lucifer_arma> ok, then the signal is wrong from the transmission
[22:29:27] <Lucifer_arma> what kind of car is it?
[22:30:04] <ct|kyle> 2006 mercury monterey
[22:30:40] <ct|kyle> it also shows fault codes p0297 p0721
[22:31:00] <ct|kyle> A/c also does not work when this happends (clutch won't kick in)
[22:31:12] <ct|kyle> and turn signals don't dismiss
[22:31:22] <ct|kyle> lots of odd errors
[22:32:06] <ct|kyle> Note that sometime it will just run correctly, and it has a better chance of running correctly if I clear the codes before starting it if it does this
[22:34:23] <Lucifer_arma> if these are all related, then you have an obvious serious electrical problem
[22:34:45] <Lucifer_arma> looks like p0297 is the code saying the speed reading is too high, an po721 indicates the output shaft
[22:34:58] <Lucifer_arma> I'm going to suggest having a transmission shop look it over
[22:35:20] <Lucifer_arma> does it make any noise when driving, by any chance?
[22:35:28] <ct|kyle> I've alse seen transmission temp sensor too
[22:36:03] <ct|kyle> oher than it not shifting properly no, in fact when it does not do this, it runs smooth and has plenty of power
[22:36:51] <Lucifer_arma> is there a correlation between the ac and turn signals not dismissing?
[22:37:16] <Lucifer_arma> it's outwardly possible that a weak alternator could cause random electrical anomalies
[22:37:23] <Lucifer_arma> unlikely, but it is possible
[22:37:27] <ct|kyle> we replaced that already
[22:37:58] <ct|kyle> We have not had the A/C work long enough to tell if there is a corolation
[22:38:23] <Lucifer_arma> I'd say have a transmission shop check it out.  if it's a deeper transmission problem, they're the ones who can figure that out
[22:38:34] <ct|kyle> we had it running fine, but the A/c was not working and the turn signals were dismissing then, but I can't say that the work when the ac works
[22:38:36] <Lucifer_arma> my electrical skills are weak, but my transmission diagnostic skills are even weaker ;)
[22:39:09] <Lucifer_arma> turn signals are usually dismissed through a mechanical connection between the combination switch and the steering column
[22:39:17] <ct|kyle> We think that if we turn the Ac on, it causes the issues with the speed sensor
[22:39:35] <Lucifer_arma> heh, test that some more, then?  ;)
[22:39:51] <Lucifer_arma> it's like software troubleshooting, it's easier to find the problem if you can make it happen at will
[22:40:22] <ct|kyle> exactly, the person we got it from took it to a tranny shop, and it worked fine when they took it in
[22:41:33] <Lucifer_arma> well, to be much help at this point, I'd need to have the car, so my suggestion is to either figure out how to make it fail so you can give those steps to the transmission shop
[22:41:48] <Lucifer_arma> or leave it at a transmission shop for a few weeks so they can drive it around until it starts to fail again
[22:42:16] <ct|kyle> ya, thanks for the help, just thought maybe you had ran across something like this
[22:42:30] <Lucifer_arma> I can't think of any reason the ac would cause a transmission problem, but I could see it going the other way where the ac could be getting disabled as a failsafe
[22:42:50] <Lucifer_arma> only time I've run across speed sensors giving too high of a reading, replacing the sensor fixed it ;)
[22:42:51] <ct|kyle> Me and my dad think it is the computer
[22:43:06] <ct|kyle> it goes into some safe mode where only cridical stuff works
[22:43:22] <Lucifer_arma> could be.  Luckily, I think you can change the transmission computer without having to have a dealer reset it
[22:44:30] <Lucifer_arma> usually diagnosing the computer is a matter of first proving all the sensors work fine, adn then you inductively blame the computer
[22:44:43] <ct|kyle> we factored in a dealer having to replace it in the price we paied for it, so if it has to be, not that big of a deal
[22:45:28] <ct|kyle> what's been really odd, we replaced batery, worked good for a bit
[22:45:35] <Lucifer_arma> they have fancy diagnostic machines that aftermarket shops don't have.  So it wouldn't kill you to have them troubleshoot it.
[22:45:41] <ct|kyle> then we replaced alternator, worked good for a bit
[22:46:04] <Lucifer_arma> both of those also cause the ECU to reset and go back to open mode
[22:46:13] <ct|kyle> eexactly, basically got it to the point where it was beyond us
[22:46:38] <Lucifer_arma> you could try torque logging, and just note the time when it starts fucking up again, then look over the log data
[22:47:07] <Lucifer_arma> make sure you reset the computer first, that way when you look at the log data, you can see if any monitors were cleared right before it started fucking up
[22:47:17] <ct|kyle> Good idea, but usually it is on start
[22:47:19] <Lucifer_arma> I don't know how complete torque's logging facilities are
[22:47:22] <ct|kyle> I forgot I could log with that
[22:47:50] <ct|kyle> but I think you can pick to log just about everyhing, I used it once before
[22:48:14] <Lucifer_arma> our obdII car was already parked when I got my scanner, so I didn't get to really test the logging
[22:48:26] <Lucifer_arma> the car we have left is a '94, so it's pre-obd2
[22:49:14] <Lucifer_arma> but back when I was still willing to work on my mother-in-law's car, I considered getting a scanner to put in her car and having her phone log
[22:49:24] <Lucifer_arma> that way when she has a problem, I could look at the log
[22:49:37] <Lucifer_arma> but that ship sailed, and I won't touch her car anymore
[22:50:12] <Lucifer_arma> my daily driver these days doesn't have a computer :)
[22:50:24] <Lucifer_arma> it's a one cylinder carbeurated two stroke motor ;)
[22:50:33] <ct|kyle> I did logging last year when my Dad's Truck's Fuel injector went bad
[22:50:50] <ct|kyle> there were other tools that I ended up using to figure that out
[22:51:12] <ct|kyle> mor or less just swapped them to get a differnt code
[22:51:36] <Lucifer_arma> well, whenever we get another car and my license is all straightened out, I'm putting a scanner in whatever my wife drives
[22:52:07] <Lucifer_arma> I'll write my own app if I need to to make sure it's logging to a database somewhere, so if she has a problem, she can call and I can look at the log immediately :)
[22:52:37] <Lucifer_arma> seems like you could use the GPS to calculate various things independent of the ECU and compare to what the ECU is telling you
[22:52:55] <Lucifer_arma> well, gotta run, hope you figure it out, sorry I couldn't help
[22:53:23] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: thanks, I'll let you know waht it turns out to be

Log from 2018-06-26:
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Log from 2018-06-27:
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[22:56:17] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: It was the computer, It is located in a spot that can get moisture in it and that was causing the issues.
[22:57:51] <ct|kyle> although A/C issues was similar also, High pressure switch was getting moisture it it shorting it and causing it to not work
[23:50:00] <Lucifer_arma> ]math calc .8*114.99
[23:50:00] <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: 91.992

Log from 2018-06-28:
[00:05:17] <Lucifer_arma> ct|kyle: sure you didn't buy a rust bucket?  ;)
[00:26:04] <Lucifer_arma> well, my youngest is here and ready to program
[00:26:26] <Lucifer_arma> only problem is, he hasn't learned much.  basic python (basic command of the language, but no OOP or anything resembling software design)
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[22:31:15] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: it really is not rusty :), but turns out there may be a short in something else too

Log from 2018-06-29:
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[03:06:13] <luke-jr> I miss ct|kyle's MS Paint thread hijacking.
[07:20:01] <ct|kyle> luke-jr: I never used MS Paint, and that was Dr. Joe Tron that started them
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[16:16:47] <luke-jr> o
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[20:25:15] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, that was dr joe tron, and I never used MS Paint either.  I used KPaint.  ;)
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[23:26:43] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: KolourPaint you mean :)
[23:31:01] <Lucifer_arma> ct|kyle: yeah, that's the one
[23:50:54] <luke-jr> nuts, ct|kyle beat me to it

Log from 2018-06-30:
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[02:19:48] <Lucifer_arma> luke-jr: by a hair, considering how active this channel is
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[11:11:51] <ct|kyle> very active with joins and parts :)
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[17:08:19] <Lucifer_arma> ct|kyle: and timeouts
[17:08:41] <Lucifer_arma> I'm so proud.  :)  My youngest has written his first game.  It's a text adventure game.  Not very sophisticated, but it's a game that works :)
[17:16:44] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: Nice
[17:38:11] <Lucifer_arma> now he's writing his first parser
[17:38:30] <Lucifer_arma> file parser, that is
[17:42:34] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: how old?
[17:43:19] <Lucifer_arma> 14
[17:43:30] <Lucifer_arma> he'll be 15 next month (well, august)
[17:44:04] <Lucifer_arma> both of my boys are trailing me in programming, starting in their teens, but at least they're starting :)
[17:44:39] <Lucifer_arma> (I'd written my first game at 10, and first text adventure at 11 or 12)
[17:46:27] <Lucifer_arma> they're also lucky enough to have python already existing, heh.  I had to work with commodore basic
[17:47:16] <ct|kyle> I think I started with HTML (if that counts) when i was 12 and tried some javascrpt in there
[17:47:44] <ct|kyle> by 14 I was wrtting pascal
[17:48:55] <Lucifer_arma> html doesn't count as a programming language :)
[17:50:16] <ct|kyle> I did some javascript stealing back then too
[17:50:45] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, I didn't write anything you could call "designed and written by me" until that first text adventure game
[17:51:13] <Lucifer_arma> you have to remember "age appropriate" programming whenever I talk about starting at a young age
[17:52:43] <Armanelgtron> I see mention of kolourpaint!
[17:53:03] <ct|kyle> High school is when I programmed a lot, in lots of languages
[17:53:59] <Lucifer_arma> I started C while still in middle school, but didn't really learn how to use loops effectively until high school
[17:54:20] <Lucifer_arma> that and functions in algebra (also in high school) made C work for me
[17:54:36] <ct|kyle> PLD, basic stamp, C, C++, java, pascal, php, actionscript, autoit and probbaoly some others
[17:54:53] <Lucifer_arma> then I learned Pascal, and didn't branch out until ~2001, when I picked up vbscript, C++, and some perl
[17:54:59] <ct|kyle> oh ya, TI basic
[17:55:59] <Lucifer_arma> I had, I think it was a TI-99, in my bedroom for awhile
[17:56:10] <ct|kyle> and i had this flow chart based programming, was used to maek a marble sorter
[17:56:30] <ct|kyle> Ti-83+ SE
[17:56:38] <Lucifer_arma> I loved flowchart-based programming, until I hated it
[17:56:54] <Lucifer_arma> no wait, it was a Timex-Sinclair 1000.  Little 8-bit machine with 2K RAM
[17:57:14] <Lucifer_arma> we learned top-down design in my pascal class, and I hated it from the beginning
[17:57:57] <Lucifer_arma> monochrome display
[17:57:58] <ct|kyle> All my high school was basically self taught, so i really did not learn concepts that well, I just programmed
[17:58:14] <Lucifer_arma> but the BASIC dialect I had was essentially the same as the commodore BASIC
[17:59:51] <ct|kyle> I programmed the shit out of TI basic though
[18:00:09] <ct|kyle> made a tic tac toe based game
[18:00:31] <ct|kyle> multi player (I may have even made a waek AI for it)
[18:03:55] <Lucifer_arma> I took a semester-long BASIC class my sophomore year, and a year-long pascal class my junior year
[18:04:16] <Lucifer_arma> which were instrumental in turning me into a programmer who could actually write really useful things :)
[18:04:55] <Lucifer_arma> then, after high school, I took 7 years off from computers, where I only played civ 2 on the Amiga for a short time
[18:05:09] <Lucifer_arma> and later wrote a budget program on the C64 because my sister gave me her old one
[18:05:39] <Lucifer_arma> I started up again in early 2001 learning C++ with Borland C++ Builder, and moved to vbscript for web pages
[18:05:57] <Lucifer_arma> because for about six months, I actually used Windows full-time.  :/
[18:09:24] <Lucifer_arma> luckily I wised up and switched to Linux a few months before the 9/11 attacks.
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[19:41:24] <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: all before I really started programming :P
[19:46:52] <ct|kyle> 6 years of college, (was taking min credit hours / semester). then I got a job and It was different, but it was more because the others at my work did not really know how to program
[19:47:43] <ct|kyle> now 3.5 years later, same company, Back to were I was comming out of college, however I am doing more advanced stuff
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